West Point Cadet Charged With Rape, Continues With Regular Duties

[donsu]

http://www.feministpeacenetwork.org/2008/02/04/west-point-cadet-charged-with-rape-continues-with-regular-duties/

Well thank goodness the military is getting tough on rape…

Orry R. Jones, a West Point Academy Cadet was, “charged this week with failure to obey a general order, making a false official statement and rape.”

“Jones, a member of the class of 2009, remains at the academy performing his regular duties.”

So just wondering, are female cadets not citizens of this country worth protecting from being terrorized while they are training to defend our country from terrorism?
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not in the neo con run US

[Squatch]

1. So, he hasn't been convicted yet, then?

:shrug:

[atreides1]

3. Not yet it seems

But there is such a thing as pre-trial confinement, unless there isn't an operating stockade nearby. Then he should have at least gotten restriction to the area!

[TahitiNut]

6. Cadets have less freedom of movement than basic trainees.

"Restriction to the area" is a normal condition. Since this is a Second Class cadet, he's completed two-and-a-half years at the Academy and his record would provide guidance (vis a vis the charges) regarding the appropriate additional restrictions. The chances that any cadet facing such charges would "escape" are almost laughable, imho.

Few appreciate how intensely controlled a cadet is ... with every minute scheduled and accounted for between about 6:10am to 9:30pm, and even while sleeping. Muster and roll call occurs three to five times each day at meal formation and formations to march to class. Every class performs a roll call. Cadets are required to report their movements at all times and obtain permission to be anywhere that their unit isn't located, whether than be in a section of the barracks or at some training or classroom activity.

[atreides1]

11. That's not Really a "Slam Dunk" Though

Wasn't it a few years back that there was a car theft ring consisting of cadets, I guess it was after that incident that freedom of movement was controlled? Or were those midshipmen from the Naval Academy?

Anyone can tell you that no matter what kind of controls are in place, especially in the military, there will always be someone who can figure out a way of getting over, I was in the Army for 13 years, I know.


While you think that this cadet escaping are laughable, can you or anyone else say with total certainty that it cannot happen? I know it's just your opinion, but anything is possible as long as you have friends and family members who are willing to help you.

[TahitiNut]

13. I spent 2 years as a cadet (USCGA) and 2 years in the Army (draftee) in the 60s.

While there is some variance in the rigor and discipline between the academies (USCGA most strict and USAFA most sloppy) and it has changed over time, the degree to which every cadet's activities are monitored is in a whole different world from even the rest of the military. Basic training was NOTHING compared to the academy ... as much or bigger of a difference as basic training is from a fraternity. West Point is more strict than Annapolis, if only due to sheer size.

As with ANY controls, whether military or business, collusion weakens them. In this case, we're talking about an individual's behavior ... not a theft ring or a cheating scandal where there's collaboration or collusion. We're also talking about a Second Class cadet ... and the corps of cadets is strictly hierarchical. Thus, not only are officers and First Class cadets monitoring him, his own classmates are obliged to report any violations. (Underclassmen will, too, but they're not as empowered.)

The appropriateness of any pre-trial restrictions and supervision is, as always, best determined by the authorities there ... and NOT by people sitting around jaw-boning based solely on a news article. The fact is that cadets take themselves and their honor code very seriously ... almost naively so. Few can imagine how "white hat" such people are. There's not much question that some idiots ("ring knockers" and other arrogant narcissists) have sullied the reputation of graduates but, having lived that life myself, I don't have much patience for the characterizations that are so widely at variance with the reality.

It's "stylish" to smear the military and be cynical about the academies. To some extent, the Air Farce Academy has EARNED disdain, as well. But the USCGA, West Point, and Annapolis really are seriously focused on that old-fashioned stuff like "duty" and "honor" and "country" ... even though us Cynics know how such things are exploited and lied about.


FWIW, while I'm personally incompatible with a "military life" and trying to fit in was like being a round peg in a square hole, that does not mean I don't respect those who do. At the same time, I'm also very well aware of the authoritarian aspects and the psychological biases. I'm neither a 'basher' nor a zealot. I have too much first-hand experience with it to be simplistic about it.

[JBoy]

2. Interesting statement

"Let's see... He was charged with failure to obey a general order, making a false statement, and, uh... oh yeah, and rape."

[TooBigaTent]

4. Must protect gallant warriors at all costs. America's best my ass. nt

[MADem]

5. It is customary in this nation to support the concept of PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE

If he's guilty, he should be punished. But let's not put the conviction cart before the trial horse, eh? That's what they do in dictatorships and authoritarian regimes.

What would be a better solution? Have him whipped in the public square, "just in case" he is guilty? Not query the plaintiff at all, but simply take her word for it because the crime is so dispicable, and of course, without knowing anything about the circumstances of the case, we assume she could NEVER lie?

That's how the actual "neo-cons" play it, ya know--shoot first, ask questions later.

I realize you didn't write that rather presumptive diatribe, but it is ASININE. It's the kind of shit that brings discredit on those who are trying, sincerely, to support feminist issues.

I've served in the military, and I've had servicemembers who worked for me continue to perform their "regular duties" while they were on restriction, awaiting NJP or CM. This guy isn't prancing around free as a bird, but by the same token, he has privacy rights, too, so any comment from the Academy beyond his duty status is inappropriate. They aren't going to say ANYTHING that has potential to prejudice his case -- one way, OR the other.

[TheUniverse]

14. Presume him innocent, but he doesnt need to have a gun in hand whilebeing investigated for rape

[MADem]

16. UH...he has a BOOK in his hand. He's a fucking JUNIOR at the Academy.

They don't go dancing around shooting weapons in that environment. They're STUDYING. It's COLLEGE on a tight leash--not "Let's learn to use weapons." They get that shit AFTER they graduate and it is determined what specialty they will pursue.

The young man is accused of "Having Sex in the Barracks" basically. So is the person he had sex with.

Now, ya know what happens if you get caught having sex in the barracks? You get booted out.

Of course, if someone says they have been raped, they are held harmless and their career won't be destroyed. The person accused of rape, though, if convicted, can go to jail for a VERY long time. Up to LIFE.

Whose room were they in? Had they been drinking? Did they have a relationship? Was there a 'senior-subordinate' issue at play?

You do not know the answers to ANY of these questions. Neither does that idiotic blog that posted this report along with their snarky pre-determined conviction.

Neither do I, and the Academy isn't saying.

So for anyone to presume anything is reckless in the extreme, and the OPPOSITE of just.

[Squatch]

20. Not to throw you off

because, 90% of what you wrote is good stuff.

But...cadets at the Service academies get quite a bit of "Let's learn to use weapons" training beginning with their freshman summer (aka Beast) and then progressively more until they graduate. In fact, by the time Army cadets graduate from USMA, they're fairly adept at the employment of the Army's weapons (from small arms to rocket artillery).

My brothers both went to Academies (USMA & USAFA) and I got quite a bit of G-2 on their required summer training (incl Airborne, Air Assault, Northern Warfare, Sandhurst, pre-Ranger, SERE, CTLT, etc).

[MADem]

22. AT THE RANGE. They don't trot around "campus" with weapons and ammo.

And big picture, it is not "a lot." It's specific, and it's scheduled, and it's part of their SUMMER training, as you noted, not their "academic year."

When USNA sends the little bastards out to sea in the summer, they get the same kind of exposure. But during the school year, they're studying or exercising, by and large.

[Squatch]

24. Sandhurst training occurs all year.

It's considered an intramural sport.

"They don't trot around "campus" with weapons..."

[MADem]

26. Are those "weapons" or "pieces?" Weapons with the barrels filled in?

I had to haul one of those around for what seemed like fucking ever!! About the only use for it, though, might be as a club...

[Squatch]

27. Dunno.

BTW, where'd you go to school?

[MADem]

28. OCS, Newport. Many, many, many moons ago. NT

[Squatch]

30. Cool.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: OCS turns out some of the finest officers.

I'm a ROTC dude, myself. In between keggers, I had to do PT and learn about shining boots and stuff (which we no longer have to do, btw :thumbsup:). :)

[MADem]

33. I came up from the fleet, too.

OCS was a cakewalk compared to boot camp. Those of us "priors" pretty much laughed our way through it. Much less demanding, physically, certainly. I didn't especially enjoy the navigation classes, particularly celestial (you had to work EVERYTHING out with a pencil; none of that GPS stuff like they have now) but I smoked engineering, thanks to an old LDO instructor who telegraphed the answers by stomping his foot every time he hit a point in the lecture where you should "write that shit down and MEMORIZE it!."

It's been so long ago; haven't thought about it in decades!

One of the things I noticed about USNA kids (and they are all kids) is that when they're good, they're very very good, and when they're bad, they're horrid. ROTC and OCS assets are more reliable, quality-wise: they have actually LIVED during those critical college years--they've gone out, gotten drunk, had to show up at that final hung over; had to make decisions about "Do I party and show up for the required college evolution with no sleep, or do I do the responsible thing and adequately prepare for the task before me?" They've been ALLOWED to fuck up during that critical 18-22 year age range, whereas the Academy asset has been told what to do, when to do it, where to go, and how to go, down to what to wear!

My worst Ensigns were USNA. One or two of my best were, too. I had one kid who, the minute he graduated, wanted to spend every night making up for lost time--he'd go out and get shitfaced every night. He required some major course corrections and never turned into a shining star.

Overall though, my best junior officers were pretty much always OCS or ROTC. Funny, a lot of my USNA peers preferred OCS or ROTC accessions--they required "less prep" to acclimate to a command's environment, generally. It's a maturity thing, IMO.

[TahitiNut]

29. That looks more like Penalty Tours than 'training.'

Cadets don't carry arms to class or to meals. As a cadet, I had an M-1 (and dull bayonet) in my closet ("locker") and a large part of the indoctrination (not 'training,' per se) was marching, manual of arms, and the assembly/disassembly of the M-1 - I could almost do it in my sleep. We had parade on Saturday morning, after inspection, where we "marched in review" for the amusement of tourists and VIPs. We had no ammunition and didn't fire the weapons. The ONLY time that was done was during summer training and on a range. The rifle might as well have been drilled and disabled.

For various conduct infractions, cadets might be assigned penalty tours - hours of marching in the quadrangle on Saturday afternoon. That photo looks like that. I can't recall any other situation where the daily uniform is worn and cadets would march, under arms, in small formations on pavement. That's a Saturday afternoon penalty tour.

[Squatch]

31. It is.

In his final semester at USMA, my little brother spent every weekend walking tours (up to and including the weekend he actually graduated). He was (and still is) a non-conformist, which rubbed certain people the wrong way.

[TahitiNut]

32. (lol) I know how that is. I spent many hours marching off tours on Saturdays.

Damned upperclassmen didn't like the look on my face when they behaved like cartoons. :rofl:

[Hugabear]

7. delete

n/t

[donsu]

8. one of the interesting replys on the FPN link

I am just wondering: this Cadet’s name is “Jones”….is he any relation to General Jones (former Chief of Staff) and if so, is this the reason that Cadet Jones has not been relieved of his duties pending the outcome of the investigation into the charges against him?

[Squatch]

9. You're kidding, right?

[donsu]

10. kidding about what?

nt

[KeineAhnung]

15. I heard...

... that his roommates are Smith and Johnson....:eyes:

[Squatch]

17. The NooB gets it.

Welcome aboard, BTW. :thumbsup:

[MADem]

19. Who was the fucking idiot who wrote that? The General named Jones is a MARINE, anyway.

Marines attend the Naval Academy, not West Point--USNA and USMA are RIVALS. They play football against each other annually, with all of the attending "Go Navy, Beat Army" bullshit-hoopla.

Amazing how many stupid people there are out on the web. It's stunning. That's probably THE most moronic thing I've seen, ever. Toss out a halfassed accusation/smear, and sit back, smugly!! The whole link doesn't acquit itself well at all, does it?

If his name was Washington, would they presume a relationship with the first President? If his name had been Smith, would that idiot have postulated a relationship with that Mormon founder, and speculated that Mitt Romney got the kid special treatment?

If his name was O'Neill, would the poster have speculated that Shaquille bought someone off to get the little fucker special treatment?

:rofl:

Incredible!!

[atreides1]

12. From the USMA Public Relations Office

CADET CHARGED – Jan. 29, 2008



WEST POINT, N.Y. – Charges were preferred today against Orry R. Jones, H Company, 3rd Regiment, Class of 2009.

Jones was formally charged with three violations of Article 92 (Failure to Obey a General Order), one violation of Article 107 (Making a False Official Statement), and one violation of Article 120 (Rape), of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The charges concern alleged sexual activity in the cadet barracks in August 2007. The charges carry a maximum punishment of dismissal from the Army, total forfeiture of pay and allowances and confinement for life.

Jones will continue his regular duties and is not in pretrial confinement. The cadet is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a trial by court-martial. Cadets, like other members of the military, are subject to military law contained in the UCMJ, a federal statute.

Preferring charges against a service member is the first step in a court-martial. The next step is a pretrial investigation pursuant to Article 32 which is similar to a civilian grand jury. The Article 32 pretrial investigation hearing, however, provides greater procedural rights for the defendant: the right to be present during the public hearing, the right to present evidence, the right to cross-examine witnesses, and the right to have a defense lawyer at the hearing.

The pretrial investigation will be conducted by a military officer at West Point. The evidence obtained and his or her recommendation will be provided to a senior military officer who may then dispose of the case or recommend a trial by court-martial to the Superintendent, the senior officer at West Point.

[DiamondJay]

18. they'd better be damn sure he did it

if they are going to try to kick him out. I have seen of and heard too many times of false accusations from catty girls trying to get guys back for some stupid bullshit. I am not downplaying how serious this is, but I feel at ALL colleges rape should be beyond a reasonable doubt, which means rape kit results and only such.

[Book Lover]

21. Why a higher standard for this crime and not others?

Why is the usual "reasonable doubt" standard inadequate for accusations of rape as opposed, to say, murder?

[DiamondJay]

23. its not at all, thats not what I am saying

its just that at college disciplinary hearings, the standard is NOT reasonable doubt, it is almost always "preponderance of evidence" for most infractions, which is no standard imo for something like rape or anything sexual. preponderance of evidence basically means is "more likely than not" which is the standard of China and Soviet era Russia. its easy to make up an accusation on that standard

[Book Lover]

25. OK, we are talking about two different things here

Actually, now that I think on it, three: military academy, universities, and the civil CJ systems. Seems to me you are talking in your posts solely about universities; am I misunderstanding you? At first, I thought you were talking about the civil CJ system.