While us peons were distracted, our masters have brought back Debt Bondage

[arendt]

Historical peonage

Peonage is a system where laborers are bound in servitude until their debts are paid in full. Those bound by such a system are known, in the US, as peons. Employers may extend credit to laborers to buy from employer-owned stores at inflated prices. This method is a variation of the company store system, in which workers are exploited by agreeing to work for an insufficient amount of goods and/or services. In these circumstances, peonage is a form of unfree labor. Such systems have existed in many places at many times throughout history.

Modern views

According to Anti-Slavery International, "A person enters debt bondage when their labor is demanded as a means of repayment of a loan, or of money given in advance. Usually, people are tricked or trapped into working for no pay or very little pay (in return for such a loan), in conditions which violate their human rights. Invariably, the value of the work done by a bonded laborer is greater that the original sum of money borrowed or advanced."

At international law

Debt bondage has been defined by the United Nations as a form of "modern day slavery" and is prohibited by international law. It is specifically dealt with by article 1(a) of the Supplementary Convention on the Abolition of Slavery, the Slave Trade, and Institutions and Practices Similar to Slavery 1956. It persists nonetheless especially in developing nations, which have few mechanisms for credit security or bankruptcy, and where fewer people hold formal title to land or possessions. According to some economists, for example Hernando de Soto, this is a major barrier to development in those countries - entrepreneurs do not dare take risks and cannot get credit because they hold no collateral and may burden families for generations to come.

Where children are forced to work because of debt bondage of the family, this is considered not only child labor, but a worst form of child labor in terms of the Worst Forms of Child Labour Convention, 1999 of the International Labour Organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage

I hate to burst the bubble of all those people who honestly believe that putting electing a Democratic president and veto-proof Congress is going to bring back social justice in America.

The sub-prime mortgage mess piles on top of usurious credit card rates and fees to create a perfect storm of peonage, not only for poor Americans, but also for the increasingly large percentage of the formerly middle class Americans who effectively have no assets.

The new Bankruptcy Laws (thanks Joe Biden, Senator - MBNA) are the chains and padlocks that will keep the new peons from fleeing - as if there were any jobs in America to which they might flee.

Welcome to debt peonage America, where children are locked into big box stores overnight to do shelf stocking, where single mothers get on buses to be bussed fifty miles away to work for chump change - as a condition of receiving welfare.

Welcome to credit-aholic America, where the credit card companies are throwing cards at teenagers, college students, people just out of bankruptcy. Give them a taste, sell them a little blow, and pretty soon you have a full-blown debt addict who will pay off for decades to come.

And rules? "We don need no steenking rules!" The credit companies change the terms and conditions on cards, retroactively, whenever they please. To the victims of this scam, it must be like being in the infamous Marion, IL Supermax prison. In that hell-hole, arbitrary, unannounced rule changes are discovered by being punished for not knowing about them - all as a part of psychological warfare to break the resistance of prisoners.

To cover all the flavors of peonage, we have the "company store" - the seller of first and last resort in Corporate America. Its where the non-urban peons HAVE TO go to spend the money. Essentially, all the small businessmen in small towns have been put out of business, and their holdings consolidated into the giant latifundia - I mean big box stores - that now employ all those former entrepreneurs.

Wal-Mart's Brave New World

I was visiting my mother who was, at that time, living in one of the poorer regions in the piney backwoods of Florida, a place not much different from Chapman, or Oroville or any of the locales characterized by poverty, drug traffic, lack of opportunity and the panoply of social problems that have become increasingly common throughout the land.

During the course of the visit, I noticed that my mother's old TV seemed about to expire, so I decided to buy her a new one. The only place such a purchase could be made, however, was at a Wal-Mart store some 15 miles from where she lived.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/print/12629/

WalMart is the new company store, where most of what is on offer is inferior, Chinese-made crap. And, except for the loss-leader items, its caveat emptor, suckers.

--------

I weep for America. It is financially doomed, but it goes about its increasingly pathetic business like it was still 1950. While it has a "gut feeling" that corporate deregulation and outsourcing are at the root of all the economic trouble, it is so collectively brainwashed that it continues to fall for the same old Libertarian /neoliberal bunkum over and over - the "ownership society", "trickle down", "tax cuts for the rich".

The media brainwashing machine keeps the emotional volume on "high" for economically irrelevant distractions like gay marriage or evolution or birth control. If it didn't, or if they "tuned out", some of these new peons might be able to focus on that emotion that would, under normal circumstances, have long since been heard: these guys are crooks, and we are going to put them in jail.

If that happened, we soon wouldn't have peons (or is that the "peed on"s).

----

That's OK, nothing to hear here. You all can go back to that wonderful campaign hoopla. You can listen to a candidate roster that has absolutely no intention of doing anything about the new peonage - except to make sure it continues. A celebrity will visit you and dazzle you. Vote. Belong. Consume and reproduce.

arendt

Note: given this is Super Tuesday night, this will sink like a stone. Consider it counter-programming for those who don't give a shit about this meaningless spectacle.

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Gotta keep this kicked

[ClericJohnPreston]

147. Where have you gone.....

John Edwards. He was the only candidate running against the mega-corporations of the Banking and Financial interests, and to argue for social justice.

Of course, faster than you can say Obama/Clinton, he was made to disappear from this race. I fault the American voters, so conditioned to spectacle and idolatry ( "American Idol" for one ), that they would vote for a candidate based on style, rather than understand HOW THAT VOTE either enhances or maintains their current condition.

We need Progressives, not so-called bi-partisan Democrats, an OXYMORON!

[arendt]

149. "I could see how you might think that; but I couldn't possibly comment."...

a quote from Ian Richardson playing a really smooth, evil bastard politician in some BBC series.

Your comment risks dragging the thread into GD-P land. So, I refrain from commenting.

arendt

[arendt]

2. Oh, I forgot to add: a national debt our great-grandchildren will still be paying. n/t

[PDJane]

4. If the dollar isn't completely collapsed first,

I don't believe that the administration has any intention of paying back the current debt.

[arendt]

7. At some pennies on the dollar, it must be paid or the world financial markets will implode...

I agree that THIS administration will dither and have Helicopter Ben cut the interest rate to zero - anything to run out the clock on this criminal administration.

But, the NEW administration (of whomever) will immediately be called upon with an IMF-style "golden straight-jacket" package: privatize everything, end all social welfare, repeal all environmental and labor laws, allow the multi-nationals to rape you blind.

The NEW debt will be set at whatever limit the crooks feel they can extract from the wreckage of America.

arendt

[femrap]

129. What W wants is someone or

something to blame this financial collapse on....so maybe a false flag?? Then martial law...and we never get elections?

Great post. And people wonder why college costs have skyrocketed? Because the PTB want the brats in debt up to their ears when they have to go out and get a job...they will be compliant and obedient workers because they have this debt around their neck that must be paid off. However, I will say that some college grads have bought the consumerist culture completely...they have to have a fancy car, great entertainment system, etc.

The ATTITUDES, the SOULS, the HEARTS of the American 'peed-ons' need to be de-programmed, re-educated, de-brainwashed.

Debt = Slavery

[USA_1]

95. Debt: Republican Caused, Democratic Silence

I bet the Republicans will wait until after November to say the debt was caused by the Dems and that the subsequent tax increases are their fault as well.

For too long the Dems have passively stood by as the Pukes create massive debts and give trillions in welfare to the rich. Then, remarkably, the GOP says it is all the Dem's fault!

It is time to stop this passivity and to put the blame squarely on the Pukes. Too bad the Dems won't make it a part of the campaign. Yes, it's too damn bad.

[ixion]

3. kick

to avoid sinkage...this is important.

[Wizard777]

5. The government hold people hostage for child support payments. n/t

[ClintonTyree]

81. I have no argument with that.....

there are too many dead-beat Dads in this country who are abandoning their children just so they can run off and do it all over again with someone else. A man who abandons his children is no kind of man, in my book. I hope the government hunts them down and drains every red cent they earn to support the children they bring into this world.

I had a child out of wedlock myself. I had the chance to run away, to shirk my responsibility and not pay any child support. I couldn't do it, little things called a "conscience" and "morals" got in my way. 24 years later and she's STILL chained to my wallet, but I wouldn't have it any other way. :)

Deadbeat Dads are the lowest of the low in my book. I'm glad the government goes after them.

I take it you think it's unfair for fathers to support their children? :shrug:

[Wizard777]

153. No not at all. I think parents should be responsible for their children.

I just don't think that the government should be able to hold people for ransom. I can understand why you would support this. Pretty much the same reason others will support holding people hostage for credit card payments. Then one day you will have fathers being held hostage for child support payments. Mothers covering the debt with credit cards. Then the government holds mom hostage for the credit card payment. Now who takes care of the child? Debt collectors would love to be able to send out letters saying, render payment by Friday or you will be in jail and your children will be in Social Services custody on Monday.

[Dr.Phool]

6. Kick and Rec.

[BeHereNow]

8. "this will sink like a stone..." Not if I can help it.

BHN:thumbsup:

[BeHereNow]

9. As with all Arendt threads, I recommend this one.

BHN:thumbsup:

[Cleita]

10. K&R

Important post and so true. I hope someone sets up a Grameen style bank here in cities and towns to lend low interest small loans to people to pay off their credit card debts at least and get out from under the debt. It should help deflate these interests too and make them go broke.

Speaking of CC one of my cards has increased my credit limit to $8,000 and me a widow living basically on Social Security with an income of less than $20,000 a year. There is no way I should have that kind of credit limit with my income.

Also I finished shredding three you have been approved applications for credit cards today like I do everyday. There is no way I am a good risk for the amount they are willing to give me on my limit. Oh, of course the interest rates are over 30% and soaring. This is a formula for bankruptcy and they are profiting from it. Something needs to be done to bring back the usury laws and stop these vultures in their tracks.

[arendt]

14. Usury laws. How quaint. The Russian mob is jealous of the rates the bankcards charge...

it is loan-sharking, plain and simple.

You know that Christianity held that usury was illegal right up to the time of the Reformation. Of course, there were scams to get around it, which everyone used. But, when the uber-power says its illegal, it pretty much doesn't get out of control.

So, where are the fundamentalist Christians on usury? Don't wait for God-ot on that.

arendt

[Cleita]

17. There used to be laws that prevented any lender from

charging more than 18% and that was for only very risky loans like pawn brokers. Even credit cards like Diner's Club and American Express never charged that amount. Usually the banks charged less than 10% and we were quite prosperous in those years.

[arendt]

19. It all got out of control during the late 70s inflation...

when inflation was running at 18% a year, the creditors demanded that the usury ceiling be lifted.

Of course, they never demanded that it be PUT BACK when inflation was tamed.

arendt

[Cleita]

21. I guess it's time to demand putting that lid back with a new

administration and Congress, which I hope we get before this country cracks like an egg. We already are bankrupt. I read a report that there is nothing but hope holding us together as we have nothing as a foundation for our paper money anymore.

[arendt]

27. I read that the banks have no assets. They were claiming the bundled subprime crap as assets.

When that stuff received its true value, the 10% margin the banks are required to keep simply vaporized.

The economy is currently suspended in mid-air, like the coyote in a Road Runner cartoon. Once the rest of the world figures out how to get out of the dollar, we are going to have a very long fall to a very hard landing.

arendt

[Lasher]

74. Loans were often sold by banks to brokerage firms.

Then they were bundled together with other assets by hedge fund managers. Knowing they were not going to be left holding the bag, bankers did not adequately exercise prudence when granting loans.

And what did the hedge fund managers do with the bundled loans?

What it takes to be a good hedge fund manager:

Take a shabby sub-prime mortgage; chop it into "investment", "mezzanine" and "equity" tranches. Bundle it with other equally suspect mortgage backed securities (MBS). Decide (arbitrarily) what the CDOs are worth. Tell your banker. Leverage at a ratio of 10 to 1. Take 2% "off the top" plus salary for your efforts. Buy a summer home in the Hampton's and a Lexus for the wife. Wait for the crash. Then repeat.

Congratulations; you are now a successful hedge fund manager!

Oh yeah; and don't forget to prepare a few soothing words for the investors who just lost their entire life savings and will now be spending their evenings squatting beneath a nearby freeway off-ramp.

"We're so very sorry, Mrs. Jones. Can we get you some cardboard-bedding to keep off the rain?"

http://www.cfoss.com/Trouble%20in%20Hedgistan.html

[Nay]

80. The banks and loan cos don't just have no assets--they are upside down. Those

bundled fakey loan instruments have wiped out assets and MORE. Trillions of dollars will be vaporized by the end of this debacle. The economy is indeed suspended in mid-air, waiting for a Dem to get into office so it can all be blamed on the woman or the black guy. It's so transparent it makes me want to weep, but all the idiots will fall for it. I pray for the day when all the idiots are living in cardboard boxes under the highway underpasses.

[closeupready]

145. And wealthy Hillary with her wealthy friends is not going to be the one to do that.

I guarantee you.

[NuttyFluffers]

75. did you know, just about every major religion/national philosophy hated usury?

it was a fascinating international phenomenon in my multicultural studies. you'd think there was some sort of wisdom gleamed from experience or something...
:think:

but then there's been plenty of religions that actively profited from usury, while condemning it in the same breath. another thing that makes you go 'hmm...'
:think:

it's like all of this has been done before or something. or something. or something...

[femrap]

131. And now we have those

'prosperity' churches...I think they should have their tax free status removed.

[ClintonTyree]

82. The IRS makes the credit card companies look like philanthropists.

If you've ever had a run-in with the IRS, back taxes etc. for whatever reason, the IRS charges 47.5% in interest and penalties on that money owed. Talk about usury! :wtf: Yet it's all perfectly legal. Our own government, penalizing people who most often made a simple mistake, in a way that forces many into bankruptcy or worse.... to commit suicide (believe me, the numbers are staggering). The IRS is the most evil institution on the planet and there is NO oversight of their heinous practices.

[Mithreal]

69. You can opt out of those cc offers. I did, took a few weeks and they

have stopped coming for last few months. Saves me time I spent with the shredder and it really works. I heard about it on the radio, trouble is I can't remember which site it was, might want to google it and check it out.

[ClintonTyree]

84. Here's a link to the "opt-out" of credit card offers site....

https://www.optoutprescreen.com/?rf=t

I've used it and have not received a single credit card or insurance offer since. :) Cuts down on the junk mail tremendously.

[AwakeAtLast]

137. Thanks for that link!

We opted out before moving, but since changing our address you would not believe the amount of crap we get in the mail. It took less than a minute to opt out both of us.

I will be sending the permanent ones soon.

I think every single person should do this.


Thanks again!

:hi:

[Cleita]

142. Thanks for the link.

I just filled it out and submitted. This is the best reply to one of my posts I've had in a long time. :-)

[intheflow]

146. Thanks for the link!

One of my favorite things to do about 10 years ago was to take every credit card offer sent to me and write "No!" or "Remove me from your list" on the sign-up sheet and then mail it back to the companies in the free postage envelope. That way, they lost money when they mailed their crap to me since they not only paid postage out, but paid postage back without the benefit of my becoming their credit slave. I know it was only pennies, but it made me feel good. Problem was, they never removed me from their freakin' lists--in fact, it seemed that because I responded they started sending me even more crap. x(

This is much more useful and doesn't take up nearly as much of my time. :thumbsup:

[femrap]

130. Ever since the first of the year, I am

getting credit card applications at least 2 or 3 times a week.

[formercia]

11. I could not have said it better

although I have been singing a poor version of this tune for a long time.


To be truly free is to be debt free.

You can walk away from it, but where to?

Florida or Texas....Nah!!

[angrycarpenter]

12. I think walmart is at the heart of it all

They have turned consumerism into a religion. They have convinced people to shop when they feel sad or bored. I actually went into a walmart this weekend. I had not been in 10 months. I looked in peoples baskets as they went by. I estimate that 90% of what I saw was useless junk. Even the food was junk. pre-sweetened processed artificial crap. Is this what we traded our freedom for? A credit card fueled departure from sanity?

A trip to walmart gives the impression that the economy is booming. The people who run walmart cannot possibly care about the damage they have knowingly done to us as a country. And yet even here people will defend their right to squeeze the country dry.

[angrycarpenter]

15. I have never had credit card.

I have never even tried to get one. I have very little of value, a twenty year-old car, I rent, I save for every thing I buy. To look at me you would think I was a bum but I live within my means and shake my head at the people who take debt as a way of life. Nothing wrong with it as long as you can afford it. It is just not in my nature to spend money I do not have.

[arendt]

22. If you are a professional, you need them to do business...

you just always pay them off. In that way, you only spend what you have. When you can afford to use them correctly, they are not a threat.

But, if you start buying consummables and non-durables "on the never never" you are doomed.

I remember about ten years ago, they tried to attach a fee to people who always paid their bills on time - like the 3% from the merchant wasn't enough for them. But, once they got their hooks into people with the 30% interest and late fees, they stopped bothering people who paid on time.

What a sick bunch of bastards they all are. The bloody French nobility, tax farmers.

arendt

[angrycarpenter]

32. There are times that having one would have been a blessing

There have been times that had I had a card it would got me out of a terrible mess but on the whole I am glad that I am not in debt.

I am poor as a churchmouse but I owe no one.

[arendt]

33. Today, sir, you are one of the lucky people in this benighted country. n/t

[LuckyLib]

125. In the banking biz, folks who pay off their cards each month are known as "deadbeats" --

we're held hostage by corporations who even change our language to fit their needs. I stay clear of big box businesses completely -- always spend my hard-earned money at small businesses, even if it costs more. Just don't buy for fun and pleasure, you actually spend less.

[arendt]

127. "deadbeats" - that's like the CIA-drug runners who call the uncorrupt "rogue agents". n/t

[Yavapai]

164. So.... What did the french people do about it???

And we want to get rid of the 2nd amendment??? Hmmmm...

[Mnemosyne]

13. Damned if I'll let this sink! KnR n/t

[malaise]

16. All social justice in history was fought for by citizens

When people stand up for their rights, the fascists will fall.

[arendt]

18. The people are so bamboozled they think credit is a right instead of a noose. n/t

[frog92969]

52. The people are so bamboozled

that they think nooses are the most wonderful things to have.
The masses are asleep at the wheel for a variety of reasons and I think this underscores ALL of our problems.
If the whole population woke up very few corporate hacks would get into government, monopolies would be busted up, news would report news or get the smackdown, and Presidents committing crimes against humanity and treason wouldn't be "business as usual".

Great post!
K&R

[taught_me_patience]

20. People must start looking inwards

and decide for themselves that they will not buy so much crap. Until that happens, the debt trap will only get bigger and bigger.

[arendt]

25. If you could just get them to "buy local" it would be a start.

I buy furniture that is made in New England. It costs a fortune; but its solid hardwood and will last my lifetime. I went around to stores looking for modern furniture that wasn't particleboard and veneer crap. Couldn't even find the stuff. So I turned to local, hand-made.

If the cost bothers you, tell yourself that you are employing a hard-working American instead of lining the pockets of the Walton family in order to own some cheap junk.

arendt

[taught_me_patience]

34. I totally agree

I try to buy "made in america" as much as I can. I'd rather buy something that is used but good quality then the shoddy but new crap in the stores these days.

[ClintonTyree]

85. Ditto here....

There are very few things that I buy "new". Food, of course. ;) But as far as clothing, shoes, appliances etc. hardly ever. And I'll NEVER buy a "new" car. You lose 20% of it's value the second you drive a new car off the lot.

I'm perfectly content to have quality "pre-enjoyed" things instead of buying "new" Chinese crap.

[kineneb]

53. our rural county is encouraging us to "buy local"

So I decided to order my books from the local little bookstore, instead of online. At least I am saving on the shipping. Now I wish they would promote locally-grown food (instead of just wines).

[arendt]

58. Speaking of local, Do you know anything about sawgrass as biofuel? n/t

[kineneb]

71. Sorry, no. I am on the other coast. Different flora out here.

Far northern end of the Wine Country. One could probably use the leftovers from making wine, however. Might smell a bit weird.

"Ah, I detect you are running on lees of _(fill in wine type)_ today. A fine vintage."

[liam_laddie]

104. Biofuels...

From all I've read, industrial hemp is by far the most efficient feedstock for biofuel...good eco-footprint, no chemical boosters, or bug/weed killers (which corn does), etc. But the public is still bamboozled by the 1930's gummint campaign against maryjane. Industrial hemp was grown during WWII for rope, other applications. And although hemp clothing is produced by our neighbors to the north, stoopid US laws still prohibit here. Jay-sus!
Bamboo may be good, although I've not been able to research it; grows fast, needs no chemical assistance. Not sure of its effect on the soil or other eco-concerns.

[Turn CO Blue]

106. If only we could make biofuel and paper out of fallen leaves!

That would be an answer to the energy needs, deforestation, and the climate crisis all at once. I think I rake up enough leaves from my yard to make about ten thousand reams of paper or who knows how much fuel!

Everyone would be planting millions of trees, and they'd leave the Amazon alone. Autumn really would be a major harvest and man, what a celebration come each fall!

/daydream

[truedelphi]

189. I have read three or four articles about how it is possible to do that

That any carbon based waste from something that is growing or was growing can become a biofuel.

That is why when the naysayers start in, I get depressed.

The biofuel scenario is in its infancy and as it evolves it will not be necesary to use a food crop like corn.

[NuttyFluffers]

76. it's as i talk with my friends, "cheap is expensive"

sounds like a crazy, oxymoronical mnemonic, but if you break it down it's far more true than not. a heavier single investment in a non-perishable/low-depreciation good now is better than multiple low investments in a perishable/high-depreciation good over a lifetime. something that will outlive you and pass on to your kids will end up saving you money in the long term. people don't honestly think all rich people live off of cheap, disposable crap, do they? otherwise why would wills contain any other information besides the liquid assets in the recently deceased's accounts?
;)

i also talk to people to be mindful of their casual energy consumption and to make use of their flexible power. one big one is buying via mail (or as we "info age" people like to distinguish ourselves from our past by calling it "buying online"). what savings you get when you spend in shipping often equals or exceeds what you spend in gasoline, time, and impulse purchases, not to mention periphery luxuries during your outing, such as movies or restaurants after a hard day price shopping. the more you let the USPS do the driving for your goods, the more you usually save. use the phone to find whether a special item is available instead of "driving to have a look-see"; price shop using catalogs; invest in the discovery of a good tailor; find a grocer that ships; let the library be your entertainment center, etc.

people too easily spend just because it seems like the thing to do and makes them feel important and powerful. but things soon lose that intoxicating effect, whereas debt lingers like a heartburn.

[SlowDownFast]

61. "the debt trap will only get bigger and bigger."

No it won't.

Why, you ask?

BECAUSE SOON ALMOST ALL CREDIT IS GOING TO BE ELIMINATED.

Banks get more selective with credit card offers


Countrywide increases downpayments in 100 counties/USA


They are only getting started with these kinds of measures.

Another link:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/features/home/orl-mortgage1308jan13,0,1487929.story

[mdmc]

23. kick, sir, kick

:toast:

[Wiley50]

24. K&R n/t

[Th1onein]

26. You know, Arendt, you are contributing to the problem.

It is one thing to point out the problems in our society and in our political system, but to say that it is a meaningless spectacle only contributes to the problem.

I remember a time when you couldn't even talk about politics with "everyday" people that you would meet at a park, the supermarket, the movies. NOW, it IS different. We are fired up. Young people are voting. People are paying attention for the first time in a long, long time.

Finally, yes.

But, in order to keep this movement alive, we must not become despondent. We must not throw up our hands and say that it is all just a meaningless spectacle. We must, for the first time in a long, long time for many Americans, begin to PARTICIPATE.

We are fighting a battle. Much of the electorate is finally paying attention. And the victory goes to those who PERSIST.

[arendt]

29. Look. I will vote for whoever the Dems nominate. But this media campaign IS all spectacle.

This spectacle is informing NO ONE about the issue I have raised in this post.

The real action has to be local. We have to elect locally progressive officials - officials who are not in the pocket of the DLC. We have to get Congressmen to put issues like this into laws.

Going to a rally doesn't do that.

I am happy people are talking about politics. It gives me a chance to make points like this essay to people. But, people seem to only talk personalities, not issues.

If you think I haven't persisted, check my journal. It goes back over five years.

arendt

[Th1onein]

37. Arendt, I'm not saying you haven't persisted.

I am saying that there is much to hope for. And none of us should give up.

We certainlly have to do one thing, though, and very quickly: Take back OUR airwaves.

[femrap]

139. The election is a circus...

purely entertainment and a distraction for the peed'ons. And we did 'Hope' in 1992 when Bill ran the first time. And Jesse Jackson has been screaming 'Keep Hope Alive' for decades.

[Cleita]

30. It won't do much good if there is nothing left to fight for.

Wake up and smell the bankruptcy of our country.

[Th1onein]

36. HEY! You know what? This is OUR goddamned country!

And I'm not going to let ANYONE take it from me and my family. We've worked our asses off here and built our homes and our lives here. We are heavily invested in this country. As you should be, as well. I'm not a quitter. And there IS a lot to fight for.

That's what the ELITE want you to think; they want you to give up and cede this country over to them. I'm sorry, but I will not give up and neither will most true patriots.

Yes, it's a media spectacle. But the post was about a lot more than the election process being a media spectacle.

[Cleita]

38. Noble sentiments but what are you going to do when

it's all taken away from you because you weren't paying attention? Ignorance is not bliss and people need to keep informed about what is happening around them before the bottom falls out, then maybe they can act before it does.

[Th1onein]

42. I've paid attention a lot longer than 80% of people in this country have.

I was paying attention when people thought you were strange when you brought up politics. Especially women, and especially in the South. My parents were both socialists and they taught me to pay attention.

When people say, "It doesn't matter who you vote for--they're all crooks," they play right into the elite's hands. The corporate elite WANT us to give up; they don't want us to be involved; they want us to CONSUME and SLAVE.

They aren't all crooks. And we all need to be informed and to ACT on that information. Every day, in every way that it is possible for each one of us. THAT'S how we take our country back. THAT'S the only way.

[arendt]

40. I get that you are fired up. Do you have an issue that you want to work...

like banning usury?

I'm just trying to turn your energy into fighting for something concrete instead of something abstract, like "change" or "hope". No offense meant to change and hope. But, which of the many problems we have are we going to tackle first. And, make no mistake, the order in which we tackle things will be the difference between success and failure.

Our resources are extremely limited. The shock doctrine is coming. They will be coming for our social programs, our legal rights, our public lands. The weaponry will be economic. We must rescue our economy; and we can begin by getting the blood-sucking credit card loan sharks back in their cage.

arendt

[Th1onein]

44. Arendt, thanks, but I am continually working on issues.

I'm not fighting for the ephemeral "hope" or "change." I am doing all that one person CAN do, given my circumstances. And I make a hell of a difference, I like to think.

[arendt]

56. Just curious what your top 3 issues are. n/t

[Th1onein]

100. My top three issues

1. Making sure that the police work for the people, not just for the rich.

2. Poverty

3. Futile care laws

[NuttyFluffers]

77. aww, optimism... may you inspire the 100th monkey!

may you lure in the avalanche's final snowflake.

meanwhile, i'm going to relax over here, chilling in my little corner of our national handbasket going merrily down the lane... i believe, i really do! but i'll persuade by watching with detached bemusement, if you don't mind. mmm, pina coladas!

[Lost4words]

50. I am a little older, Let me know how it works out for you!

I hope you are not dissapointed.

8643

[Karenina]

28. Americans are not well educated about money.

IIRC 19% believe they are in the top 1%. :crazy:
If you depend on a salary to maintain your lifestyle be it 50 or 500K, you ain't even in the driveway.

[arendt]

31. Amen. If they are educated its: get a lot of credit cards, max them, and pay the minimum n/t

[femrap]

140. I read somewhere that when

our public school system was starting out that the PTB specifically would NOT allow schools to teach about MONEY! And we don't.

[Greyhound]

72. "It is good that Americans don't understand their economic or banking systems,

if they did, we would have revolution tomorrow" - Henry Ford

100% of every dollar the IRS collects is paid to a private bank as interest on money they never had to loan.

We are about to understand the true cost of our ignorance.

[redqueen]

107. "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies...

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around . . . will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered . . . The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs." -- Thomas Jefferson -- The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill, (1809)

"What is the robbing of a bank compared to the FOUNDING of a bank?" Bertolt Brecht

[Greyhound]

185. Brilliant!

:hi::thumbsup:

[femrap]

141. I read that our 'Federal'

Reserve is running a NEGATIVE....never happened before!

www.urbansurvival.com

discussed in 2/6/08 entry.

edit: can't spell

[scarletwoman]

35. I will always kick and recommend your posts, Arendt. This is excellent as always. (nt)

[Pooka Fey]

39. Another kick here & R'ed

[RadioactiveCarrot]

41. Thank you once again arendt

I've always envisioned 'trickle-down economics' as a CEO unzipping their fly and trickling down on the heads of working Joe and Jane.
Gone into Ludicrous speed as of late too.
Hard to find worthwhile posts in the candidate orgy as of late, but thank you again.
:toast:

[earth mom]

43. K & R! nt

[madmom]

45. with all due respect.....

"Think of that for a moment, and then imagine yourself as a young person entering the workforce with a high school diploma or less, and then try to imagine the prospects your life holds in a landscape where Wal-Mart IS the local economy. To put it bluntly, if you're that young person, you're pretty much screwed."

If you're a young person entering the work force with a high school diploma or less......they should be glad some one is even willing to hire them. I was at the grocery store and gave the cashier a $100 bill,I had to help her count the change.People with no marketable skills are not going to make the big bucks.

Oh and by the way Wal-Mart vests are blue, K-Mart is red.

[Blue_Tires]

46. doing my part to not let it sink!

[juno jones]

47. K&R

Thanks, Arendt, I always find your posts informative. I agree about credit. I'm trying to walk away from a train wreck that was my home and buisness for 4 years. The first 3 were ok years, I thought I was building something, the old american dream thing. Then this last year and this slowly sinking economy (and some shady shit pulled by the person who wrote my refi) caught up to us and buried all the hopes, first my store, then the buisness proper, then my house. We had only one CC with which we did buisness. I paid thousands of dollars on that thing faithfully, but when it looked that I would get behind, suddenly there was no mercy, larger fees, higher rates, most hidden until they were sprung on me...I had no choice but to walk away from my house and credit by paying for a very expensive bankruptcy. I am lucky in that I survived the twenty years previously on barely over minimum wage and no credit, so i will have no problem surviving upon my return to poverty. But I feel for those who are trapped by these bastards, who, because of circumstance and lousy laws cannot find an exit...

I guess what I'm trying to say is 'there oughta be a law against this sort of thing', but as long as we have that lovely Reagan-era mentality (still alive and kicking on this board, I find) that the poor and anyone who slips into poverty deserve it for being lazy, then it will never be fixed.

That credit score stuff reminds me too much of a teacher threatening to ruin your life with an annotation in your 'permanent record'.It amuses me that I get more offers to extend ('rebuild') my credit now than I did before the bankruptcy. Shitloads of them are from used car dealers...Like buying a depreciating lemon for which I can't even afford the gas is gonna put me ahead again. I opt out. Besides my new rental is across the street from the bus stop. Life is good.

[arendt]

54. Thanks for sharing your story.

> I guess what I'm trying to say is 'there oughta be a law against this sort of thing',

The problem is that we have all kinds of laws - but NOBODY ENFORCES THEM!

Jane Jacobs says that people don't appreciate the value of trust in a capitalist society. We are all about to get a lesson in lack of trust; and it is going to kill the financialized economy. People are going to have to cut up their credit cards to survive, and when they do, the banks are going to go bust.

Then maybe some local S&L that isn't a phantom URL on the net will spring up and do some honest local business.

----

"credit scores" - whoTF invented them; and how dare businesses share my personal information in order to screw me to the wall. I don't get to share their personal information.
arendt

[Divernan]

116. Dems in PA state legislature were bought off by credit card companies too.

I was a new (Dem) staff member for the PA House of Representatives, when the Dems had the majority, back in the early 90's. It was one of my first smoke-filled caucuses of Dem members - and it was here that all decisions were made as to which bills would be passed, since the Dems had the majority. The fight was over whether to change the law to remove the ceiling on how much interest credit card companies could charge - at the time, I believe the limit was 15%. The few truly honest reps (only a handful) were arguing that 15% was more than enough profit, and that their constituents would get screwed by the new law, particularly since it set NO ceiling on how much interest could be charged.

The lobbyists had counted heads accurately, and distributed their campaign contrib. checks as needed, though, so the bill had Dem leadership approval and was passed. The bill's prime sponsor actually got up and said that it was not reasonable to assume that the credit card companies would actually INCREASE the rates - why there was just as much chance that they would DECREASE the rates! Meanwhile the GOP had the majority in the state Senate, and had been similarly paid off by the lobbyists, so "Bob's your uncle", as the Brits say, the proposed legislation became the law. Needless to say the interest rates never went down.

[Dawggie]

48. Amen! Brother or Sister! K&R

[Lost4words]

49. yours is the only truth I have heard today, nothing will change, I Hope I am wrong

but... 16 years ago Bill Clinton got in and I was hoping for some significant changes for the better.

To my dismay it only got worse.

" and NOBODY said a stinking thing"

Arent the problems we have today the same as the colonies had under the crown?

just sayin!

[lonestarnot]

51. Slave fucking labor and getting away with it.

[undergroundpanther]

55. I knew it!

Those assholes would bring back debt bondage. Everyone called me paranoid back then when I brought it up...Evil is as evil does,

Check it out
America Land of the free MY ASS.
The US Constitution states.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

That **slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,** means in other words..A PROVISION for Prison SLAVERY and for VOLUNTEER Slavery has been left IN the constitution... (a.k.a. debt slavery, only looks voluntary on the surface, but in reality it isn't,A lie as in you bought it so you will pay for it( over and over forever)Where is justice in this? There isn't ANY)
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/undergroundpanther/73


The Neocons are creating all the conditions it will take, for our system to become one of endless debt slavery. This is their reason for cutting SSI, for tort reform, for rewriting bankruptcy laws, for fucking with interest rates, etc. Medical debt and credit card debt will be a tool used to screw us all into slavery.

The illusion of the legitimacy of owing interest on a loan has created debt slavery. Usury is a sneaky slavery scam that is very effective in getting people to work for longer than it takes to repay the debt, long enough to pay the debt over and over again, for nothing in return. Debt slavery has kept generations of Indian families under the yoke of their masters, giving them free labor. If it works in India, it will work here.

http://www.unknownnews.org/050607a-Panther.html

[beezlebum]

57. k&r n/t

[NutmegYankee]

59. K & R!

[SlowDownFast]

60. K&R. Almost seems like @ least 90% of the people here are oblivious

to what's really coming down the pike:

The US is now COMPLETELY BANKRUPT.

That is not an exaggeration. It is an UNDERSTATEMENT.


I'm not advocating abandoning politics altogether, I'm advising the good people here at DU to spend ALOT less time getting frantic over cliches and slogans and start getting out of as much debt as you can and stockpiling food and barterable goods and spend more time discussing such matters here AND WITH YOUR FAMILIES - 'cause that's where we are headed VERY SOON - no matter who gets to be president.

If you're still convinced this is just going to be a 'mild recession', then I advise you to promptly buy as many shares of Citigroup, Bank of America, Wachovia, etc as you can afford (hey - they're ON SALE!), 'cause you'll deserve exactly what's coming to you if you do.

And no, there ain't no "calvary" a'comin to rescue everybody this time, the calvary's already been crushed and destroyed by the massive weight of ignorance, greed and debt.

The Great Reset is coming soon to a theater near you.

[Octafish]

62. The CIA: Banking on Intelligence

Here's how they've managed...



The CIA: Banking on Intelligence

Anthony L. Kimery

The CIA has collected, and the intelligence community has collected, economic intelligence of one kind or another since its inception. -‑ Director of Central Intelligence, R. James Woolsey

The CIA has never been above breaking the law as it battles communists, nationalists, terrorists, or the latest "national security threat": foreign‑directed economic and financial subterfuge. This growing economic focus comes at the bidding of many voices in the CIA, Pentagon, and corporate community who believe the U.S.'s primary intelligence mission should be to help industry compete in the global marketplace. There has been little public discussion, however, over just when corporate competition becomes a sufficient threat to the national security to unleash the corruptible talents of the intelligence community into the world of international finance.

"New" Intelligence Requirements: Old Practices

That line between "national security" and private financial interests has long been mutable and subject to the day‑to‑day needs of the CIA. For decades, the U.S. has used currency manipulations, embargoes, and other forms of economic pressure to undermine its foes. When the 1945 Bretton Woods agreement established the U.S. dollar as the international currency of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, the U.S. secured enormous international financial leverage. It can direct intense fiscal pressure against foreign financial institutions, and even an entire national economy, by activating the global power of the Treasury Department and the Federal Reserve (along with the international financial institutions it controls). Witness the long‑standing embargo against Cuba, the economic sabotage of Nicaragua in the 1980s, the illegal withholding of Panama's canal revenues between 1987 and 1990, and the current international sanctions against Iraq. Economic motives have always driven U.S. covert operations. And bending banking regulations to the benefit of U.S. and foreign elites has been standard practice. Thus, it should be no surprise that, despite questionable legality, both the National Security Agency (NSA) and the CIA already engage in extensive economic intelligence activities wherever U.S. national security interests are perceived to be at risk.

The practice of using existing U.S. intelligence agencies to gather economic and financial data through traditional spy methods was given a boost by the Reagan administration. Incoming CIA Director William Casey's national security credentials were matched by his business background. Casey had been chair of the Securities and Exchange Commission, Undersecretary of State for economic affairs, and Import‑Export Bank President. He ordered the Agency's once modest

National Collection Division (NCD) to recruit major corporate executives abroad to gather proprietary information on foreign businesses and the trade and economic policies of foreign governments. This move made the NCD the largest information gathering program within the Agency's operations directorate. By 1984, more than 150 corporations were providing cover for CIA people overseas.

Also on Casey's order, from 1982 through 1987, career CIA man Douglas P. Mulholland served at the Treasury Department as the chief liaison to the Agency. The person in this position typically ensures that, should some low‑level regulator stumble across banking law violations, CIA operations involving banks and other federally regulated financial institutions are not compromised. No operations, it seems, were compromised on Mulholland's watch. He retired from the CIA in 1987 to become a researcher for George Bush's presidential campaign, and later headed the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research.

SNIP...

BCCI: A Window on the Future

The CIA's largest banking fiasco ‑ with the Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI) ‑ hints at how the intelligence agencies will handle their expanded economic mandate. It is no longer a secret that U.S. intelligence agencies used BCCI extensively for covert operations. BCCI's CIA ties have sparked speculation that the Agency was one of the bank's original sponsors.

The Senate Foreign Relations Committee's comprehensive report on the BCCI scandal leaves the impression that Casey's man in Treasury. Mulholland, in spite of his evasive answers to the committee's questions, knew when violations were made by BCCI and did am report them. This is especially evident in the case of BCCI's illegal 1980 takeover of First American Bank the largest holding company in the metropolitan Washington area. All ClA intelligence on BCCI and the takeover was routed through Mulholland who, predictably, took no action.

Once the bank scandal became public, the report reveals, BCCI was counseled by individuals well‑connected to the intelligence establishment, including Michael Pillsbury and Karna Small. Pillsbury is a long‑time Senate staffer with insider clout in the intelligence community. He served as an Assistant Secretary of Defense under President Ronald Reagan, and was a member of the 208 Committee, a top‑secret interagency group that oversaw CIA covert operations and met in Room 208 of the Old Executive Building adjacent to the White House. As a member of that group, Pillsbursy concedes, he helped provide military assistance to the CIA‑backed Afghan rebels, an operation for which BCCI was used extensively. Reagan fired him in 1986 for leaking word that the administration had decided to provide Stinger antiaircraft missiles to rebels in Afghanistan and Angola.

CONTINUED...

http://covertaction.org//content/view/142/75/

[El Pinko]

63. For now, if you're a renter, you can still walk away from debt.

I did. Had so much that even paying minimums for 40 years probably wouldn't have paid them off.


But I believe that's what the push to a "cashless society" is all about.

Once the economy becomes totally cashless, nobody can participate who isn't playing the credit-rating game.

Already, you can't rent a car without a credit card.


If I had it all to do over again, I would never have gotten a credit card. It's hard to foresee the expenses that will befall you once a baby or two come into the picture, and the temptation to use the plastic for those expenses is impossible to resist when you're on a tight income. I would have also not moved to a very expesive city (SF).

It's still possible to avoid debt slavery.

And if you're in over your head, see a credit counselor - if the payment plans they recommend are totally unworkable for you (as was the case for me - I would have had no money for food or even rent), then find out what the statue of limitations on unsecured consumer debt is in your state and WALK AWAY, or declare bankruptcy.

No credit rating is worth decades of slavery to a credit card, especially with prices soaring and WAGES IN THE CRAPPER.

[undergroundpanther]

68. I never took the credit bait

But I don't drive and I live below the poverty line.

[Patchuli]

64. I have no "master"

save the Lord...

[Kurovski]

65. K&R. (nt)

[Kat45]

66. K&R

[Naturyl]

67. Good post. Here's a key part...

"I weep for America. It is financially doomed, but it goes about its increasingly pathetic business like it was still 1950. While it has a "gut feeling" that corporate deregulation and outsourcing are at the root of all the economic trouble, it is so collectively brainwashed that it continues to fall for the same old Libertarian /neoliberal bunkum over and over - the "ownership society", "trickle down", "tax cuts for the rich"."

K&R.

[eridani]

70. Candidates will act on this stuff if a mass movement FORCES them to

FDR needed prodding to get the New Deal going, don't forget.

[ursi]

73. serious shit

[donheld]

78. We'd better really keep vigilant during this election cycle, or

They (the Bush Cabal) are going to entirely give away what
little we have left while we're fussing over all the piddly stuff.

[pokercat999]

79. Without a proposed solution your reiteration of the

problem is meaningless and redundant. We hear this time and again, my question, WHAT IS THE SOLUTION? Do you propose we take up arms, stage a national strike, commit mass suicide, kill all the CEOs, go live in caves, or just roll over and take it? What do you think we can or should do about this problem?

[whistle]

86. Hillary Clinton has proposed emergency Homeowners and Bank Foreclosure protection

...legislation to at least prevent millions of people from losing their homes and chartered banks from going under until we can get a democratic president in office and turn the economy around to create good paying jobs and put millions back to work. The solution will be TES or "the economy stupid"!

[pokercat999]

152. Those same democrats that voted for the bankrupt

bill? Those MC/Visa owned democrats those priceless folks?

[arendt]

92. A proposed solution? How about, "WakeTF up, morans!" ? The situation is way past a plan to fix it...

The situation is deep in the bones of every peon who accepts the slavery that has been foisted upon them.

How do you start against a populace that is angry for being enslaved, but blames the "commies" who were trying to stop it?

A belief in happy endings is a distinctly American delusion, part of our exceptionalism.

I am preaching to the choir because only the choir will listen. I am saying "stop trying to save others, because they are too busy shopping. Save yourself while you still have time. Avoid debt peonage YOURSELF."

arendt

[Vilis Veritas]

108. Avoid DEBT. If in DEBT, follow these rules.

Before you do anything, make a list of all debt. The following list is a short list of things to do...it is not complete, but I think you can get the idea.

1. Call your debtors and tell them you are working on paying them off, start a dialog, NICELY. Be nice no matter what they say and you will be surprised.
2. Start saying NO to impulse purchases, FREEZE ALL non-essential spending.
3. BEANS and RICE. Stock up. Another similar protein/carb profile if allergies are present.
4. Even more BEANS and RICE. Add a cheap multi-vitamin to the mix. WATER is a GREAT beverage.
5. Get a second job, if you can, ANY JOB.
6. Sink all extra money into paying off your debt. ALL.
7. Hold a garage sale. You would be surprised how much non-essential stuff some people have. Think minimalist.

It is possible to become debt free, but only if you are really WILLING to SACRIFICE...alot!

Of course, you could just walk away from your debt and start life anew in some other state, country, whatever, but I have yet to try that route for myself, so I can not attest to its viability, the above mentioned method WORKS. Ok, so that takes care of debt (VERY SIMPLIFIED version)...

Now to the political, start locally by attending city or county meetings, if you can, get involved and get a say in things at a local level. Speak up if you hear something that seems fiscally irresponsible. Ask questions. If you can't attend meetings, call them up and get on their mailing list so you can get the agendas mailed to you, most local administrations do this and you can scan for important issues and go to meeting that impact fiscal matters of the taxpayers in your area. Have a voice.

I hope this helps a little...I felt you were really asking for something more than..."Wake UP!!!"

Peace.

[pokercat999]

154. OK I've kinda done your list, my only debt is a mortgage and

as insurance I've purchased a nice town home with cash. I've rented it out for a small profit but it's mine free and clear and I can take it back with 30 days notice. I'll payoff my mortgage before retiring in 10 years and our current and foreseeable future income level puts us in great shape.

My question was directed more at what we could do as a society. How can we protect those not lucky (yes I'm using the word lucky here on purpose) enough to be firmly in the upper middle class?
Maybe:
1. Re-do the bankruptcy law.
2. Limit imports to only those countries that have and enforce our OSHA and minimum wage laws.
3. Eliminate corporate welfare.
4. Fund all federal elections.
5. State (federal) insurance programs to cover life and home.
6. Pay at the pump car insurance.
7. Free healthcare to all US citizens and legal alien residents. Low cost to visitors.
8. There's lots more I'll bet you can name a few. But how do we defeat corporations to get this stuff enacted?

[Vilis Veritas]

188. Defeating Corporate Rule will be near impossible...

I do not really see a way to defeat Corporations at this time. It took 100 years after they were given person-hood for their entrenched power to break free from the darkness and openly commit crimes without penalty.

100 years. That should be the plan, it needs to be generational in scope and if you could get 100k people to sign on to the movement and wean slowly off the grid, it might happen...slow infiltration of local politics (yep, it would require stealth and subterfuge - think Sun Tzu's Art of War). It would require a dedication tantamount to a religion. A way of life. It is what the power elite did to get the rule of America back in their hands.

Those are my thoughts, seeing as how you asked.

Peace.

Just an aside, I am sure that you know that when we buy a home or land, we are actually buying the rights to lease (via property taxes) 'in perpetuity' from the Gov. until such a time as the Corporate Overlords see fit to claim the property for their use? Property Ownership is another illusion of Corporate Rule - unless of course you are Incorporated...

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/eminent+Domain

The Fifth Amendment states:

Nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The Fourteenth Amendment states:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

[Virginia Dare]

159. You should never go in debt to purchase anything that will lose value...

seems like a strange concept in this day and age.

[formercia]

83. Sixteen Tons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteen_Tons

"Sixteen Tons" is a song about the misery of coal mining. Although generally credited as being written in 1947 by U.S. country singer Merle Travis, it has also been claimed that the Travis version was actually a rip-off of an earlier song called "Nine-to-ten tons", written by a singer called George S. Davis in the 1930s<1>. A 1955 version recorded by 'Tennessee' Ernie Ford was on the b-side of his cover of the Moon Mullican standard, "You Don't Have to Be a Baby to Cry". However, it was Ford's "Sixteen Tons" that reached number one in the Billboard charts, besting the performance of the competing version by Johnny Desmond. Another competing version by Frankie Laine was released only in the UK where it gave Ford's version some stiff competition on the charts. On October 17, it was released and, by October 28, it sold 400,000 copies. On November 10, a million copies had been sold. The record had sold two million copies by December 15.

The well-known chorus runs:

You load sixteen tons, and what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt.
Saint Peter, don't you call me, 'cause I can't go;
I owe my soul to the company store...

[Quantess]

87. RECOMMEND! Get this to the top of Greatest Page

over those dumb GD-P threads

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Where does the Walmart TV story come into it?

All that story says is:

Someone living "in the piney backwoods" can buy a TV 15 miles away. For a major bit of consumer electronics that you might buy once every 10 years, that's not all that far to go, from the 'backwoods'. The story claims it was "only place such a purchase could be made" - but doesn't tell us where the next nearest store selling TVs was. It's not as if there's a law against purchasing a TV elsewhere - they just didn't want to drive further from the backwoods. It's possible that Jaime could buy one over the internet, and have it delivered, of course.

And at Walmart, he guesses the age of the woman serving him - doesn't know, but think she looks 20 years older - than what? His guess of how old she really was, based on what, apart from how old she looked? The way she talked, perhaps - but he lives 3000 miles away. Does he really know the differences between the way 25 and 45 year olds speak in this locality? How well could he judge how old someone is, apart from how old they looked?

She didn't know much about TVs, it seemed. Yeah, if you only go to the nearest store, that may happen. But she was pleasant. But, despite her being "as sweet as pie", he says he left Walmart with "a profound sense of emptiness", and he'd "just seen human experience reduced to its lowest common denominator". Wow. The human he talked to was nice, but, presumably because of her lack of TV expertise, he's depressed. He sounds like a soulless tech consumer to me, who gets fulfilled by technology, not nice humans. Score one for the Walmart employee, and none for the article author.

[arendt]

91. Have you missed the entire story on WalMart or are you defending them?

There are entire organizations devoted to stopping WalMart from destroying small towns and communities:

http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/facts/

http://www.familyfarmdefenders.org/pmwiki.php/LocalFoodSystems/Wal-MartTheQuintessentialSuburbanNightmare

I am not going to waste my breath answering your trivial quibbles and pettifoggery.

You are one of the brainwashed who think that "trickle down" is good for us.

arendt

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. Maybe you should have linked to a relevant Walmart piece then, in the first place

rather than a man whinging that the pleasant staff in a Walmart don't make up for the lack of TV expertise.

No, I'm not defending Walmart, or 'trickle down'; I'm saying your Walmart story was useless. That's why I asked "Where does the Walmart TV story come into it?" See?

[arendt]

98. And the point of your nitpick is what? If WalMart is irrelevant, why are you here? n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

102. It was the piece you linked to about Walmart that was irrelevant

You could have highlighted the everyday stores that struggle to compete when a giant Walmart appears. You could have talked about the pressure Walmart puts on suppliers to cut their margins to the bone. You could have talked about the wages Walmart pays. Instead, you chose to highlight the distance someone living in the backwoods has to go to buy a bit of consumer electronics they'll buy perhaps once a decade.

[redqueen]

109. I find it quite compelling as is.

Perhaps you'll consider doing your own fantastic OP, putting things the way you'd rather they were put.

[muriel_volestrangler]

117. Well, the links arendt gave in post #91 are much better

They talk much more about how Walmart can be bad for communities they set up shop in. Sometimes, a bit of criticism can improve a post.

[Joe Chi Minh]

171. I think as a regular here, muriel, it's expected that you would be familiar with

the principal gripes of DUers concerning the ravages of corporatism, without posters having to provide a bibliography of links with every post.

[muriel_volestrangler]

174. True, but I didn't see the point of claiming a problem with TV retailing in the backwoods

they could have just said "and there's Walmart" and left it at that for us to fill in the Walmart wage problems etc. The smirkingchimp piece was an extended whinge by an electronics consumer, which rather detracted from the main post, I thought.

[arendt]

176. Just FYI, the post was "at hand", I was in a hurry. You caused me to find a better citation...

...although I felt that DU knew all about WalMart and would appreciate a personal vignette, instead of yet another deluge of facts about a well-known evil.

It really boils down to a matter of writing style. Now, can we please end this sub-thread peaceably?

arendt

[muriel_volestrangler]

181. Yeah, I guess I was in a bad mood this morning

and when the smirkingchimp piece annoyed me, I took it out on you rather than the author. Sorry.

[arendt]

182. Apology accepted. I was in another thread that was annoying, and you also got some trasference...

Sorry on this side too.

arendt

[Joe Chi Minh]

180. I get your point, but you're a hard task-master at times. Sometimes,

we just need to sound off on an anecdotal, vernacular level. My reaction was similar to yours at first, but the digression resonated with me nevertheless when I thought of Tesco's ever-growing sprawl, like a great cancer. Now, internationally, it seems.

[trof]

89. "I owe my soul to the company store."

Another day older and deeper in debt.

[formercia]

96. The lyrics to the song:

http://www.ernieford.com/SixteenTons.htm

[trof]

99. Yep. I grew up listening to Tennessee Ernie.

[Echo In Light]

90. K&R

[dh1760]

94. One question ...

Does personal responsibility fit in here at all? Just because the the CC company extends you thousands of dollars of credit, does that mean you are under some obligation to use it? Are we saying that the average person is incapable of making a rational financial decision, so the CC company should save them from themselves by not offering credit?

Flame or ignore me, as no doubt most will, but I am interested in civil, logical responses.

-dh1760

[arendt]

97. Welcome to DU, dh1760.

The credit card companies are like dope dealers. They offer desperate people something that looks like a lifeline, and those people wind up getting deeper and deeper in debt.

Personal responsibility, when your choice is immediate peril and vague future trouble, is a much more difficult decision than you make it out to be.

I suspect (don't have stats) that most people get in CC debt when some emergency (medical, job loss) causes them to put a lot of debt on plastic. In such a situation, what bank is going to give them a debt loan? The bank is not going to write them much better than 15% interest for an unsecured (which it usually will be) loan to pay off short-term debt. The CC debt is right there waiting to be used; and most innumerate people say "hey, 1.5% a month sounds better than 15% a year". If you are poor, you can't afford to take time off and go to a bank during business hours, deal with a loan officer, and wait for the paperwork to clear.

The whole CC racket is like the EZ pass lane on the interstate. It looks like a no-brainer until you realize that you had to front them the money.

You ask if the sucker was capable of "Making a rational decision"? Was it rational for the CC company to extend ridiculously large credit lines to uncredit-worthy people. If you beleive my OP, the answer is yes - because the CC companies are loan sharks. Otherwise, why didn't the bank behave responsibly?

Have I answered in a civil enough manner?

arendt

[dh1760]

105. Thank you, arendt, I appreciate the response, and ...

... understand the concept of CC companies as dope dealers/loan sharks/etc. The logical follow-up question is: what happens if the CC company goes away or otherwise stops offering credit? The desperate person still can't go to the bank, wait for paperwork to clear, etc. Not to mention, in all likelihood, they wouldn't be able to secure the loan to begin with.

So what's their option? Are we talking about a wider public safety net? Assuming you work out the precarious balance point which sets the exact amount which can be taken from Peter to pay Paul before putting Peter in economic peril, that provides food, clothing, medical care, and shelter. A good start, to be sure, but it doesn't pay to replace the broken TV, or get new tires for the car, or birthday presents for the kids. Arguably all essentials, but not things that a safety net can provide.

-dh1760

[MadHound]

169. Yeah, but many of these CC offers are made when there is no desperation present,

Just greed and stupidity. College students get these offers and think "Hey, I can go down to Padre Island now, WooHoo!" or some such. More and more people simply aren't thinking about their debt, they're just going out and grabbing with both hands. Greed and stupidity, a horrible combination, and sadly one that persists throughout a person's lifetime. Looking to buy your first house? Screw the starter home, let's get that McMansion with nothing down and an ARM! Looking for a car? Don't get something sensible, go out and get a Cadillac Humongous SUV, nothing down! Etc. etc.

Debt has indeed become like crack for many people, a quick fix to an impulse. But it takes two to tango as they say, and these people who get themselves into this hole, all through greed and stupidity, need to learn their lesson. Yes, it is a hard, harsh lesson, but maybe it will stick and they won't go fucking it up for the rest of us again.

[arendt]

175. But, the reaction you describe was utterly predictable, and as I pointed out in #112...

the laws were changed to remove restraints of long standing. Every religion in the world has damned usury for millenia. Yet it keeps coming back. Blaming the loanees is like blaming teenagers without access to birth control for getting pregnant.


Its like we don't let ten years old drink; and we don't let anyone sign up legally for loan-shark interest rates.

The results in both cases are predictable.

Again, why does "responsibility" apply only to the crack consumer and not to the crack dealer or the corrupt government that legalized crack dealing?

Sounds to me like you are blaming the victim. Tough love and all that macho BS.

arendt

[MadHound]

187. Like I said, it takes two to tango, and the blame for this falls on both sides of the fence

I'm not excusing the CC companies for what they do, I agree, thirty percent is indeed loan sharking. And if one is desperate, any port in a storm as they say.

However people are also responsible for educating themselves on these matters before signing the dotted line. It isn't like these practices aren't disclosed, they are, granted in fine print. It isn't like this is a widespread, well known problem, it is, one that has been written and spoken about intensively. Yet people keep signing up for CCs, all to charge not necessities, but material extras. People have developed a me, me, me, now, now, now attitude of instant gratification over the past quarter century, and they act on those impulse buys with their credit card.

Yes, I agree, the credit card companies are acting like sharks and they share in some of the blame for this. However you also can't excuse and hold blameless those individuals who go out and put an extravagant lifestyle on plastic. For instance, let's take my neighbor. He and his family bought a modest house on four acres in the country, all on an ARM. He proceeded to fill the house with new furniture, a big screen TV, a new stereo, a new truck out in the garage, along with four new ATVs to race around his property on. All this was purchased on credit, cards and other such arrangements. Is it any wonder that last summer this bubble burst? House was foreclosed, ATVs repoed, I have no clue about the rest because by that time this family moved. I see this scenario repeated time and again, but who's to blame? The credit companies for offering temptation, or the person who goes out and foolishly spends money they don't have like a drunken sailor?

You think that I'm a strictly "blame the victim" type of person, I'm not. What I am telling you is that there is blame to place on both sides, and we should ignore the blame accrued by foolish people as well as the blame accrued by greedy corporations. Both are at fault in this mess.

[arendt]

191. OK. In the example you cite, your neighbor deserves what happened to him...

and there seem to be a lot more idiots like that out there. And that is scary.

If people are that easily led, then the whole society can be (and is being) led straight to feudalism.

I acknowledge that some people are terminally stupid. But, we must find a way to protect ourselves and the "any port in a storm folks" from the sharks, while letting the sharks have the unfit (terminally stupid). I propose we outlaw usury and let the unfit go back to loan sharking.

arendt

[Echo In Light]

103. Not "incapable" of making decisions, but dumbed down and induced via 24/7 corporate culture

It's called predatory capitalism. Get people trapped in a specific mode of existence, and keep on exploiting the dynamic. If an impoverished sector is besieged with health problems, and having no resources for the myriad of variables involved in prevention/treatment, people of conscience don't make assigning blame {to the less fortunate} the first priority in addressing the dilemma.

[Virginia Dare]

161. Not to mention that consumerism is now akin to patriotism..

remember after 9/11 when Bush encouraged Americans to go forth with credit cards to help against the war on terror. Just recently Rep. Boner said that it was the job of all Americans to be good consumers.

[midnight]

101. If after reading this.... and you have not voted yet, vote Edwards.

He is the only candidate arguing that this is wrong.

[redqueen]

110. Go away.

'Batin.

[Hamlette]

111. Don't blame the credit card companies for your inability to restrain yourself.

It's like blaming McDonalds for being fat or Winston for smoking.

I don't have much sympathy for young people who run up credit card debt buying crap they don't need.

As to the bankruptcy bills, who do you think pays for those debts discharged in bankruptcy? (Hint: you, me.)

I recognize that many innocent people get caught up in debt out of need but excusing debt is not the answer. The true problem is we are a greedy lot and consumerism reigns. And the greedy lot wanting to excuse the debts they ran up because they HAD to have that new iPod/cell phone, hurt the poor the most. The laws get written to hold consumer addicted people accountable and the truly needy get screwed. The laws would not be so harsh if the aim was protecting the innocent.

Direct your anger towards Madison Avenue.

[arendt]

112. There used to be laws against annual interest rates of 30%. The innumerate don't get...

that at those rates, it isn't a loan; its indentured servitude.

I direct my anger towards the crooks in the financial industry who lobbied Congress for that. I direct my anger towards the corrupt lawmakers who allowed usury to flourish and who allowed bankruptcy protection to be blown away.

Madison Avenue? Why get in an argument with the masters of deceit and spin? They will hide behind their First Amendment rights as corporate people to distort, manipulate, and outright lie (I recall a Nike case about the right of corporate persons to lie. Don't recall the outcome.)

And, don't put words in my mouth. I never said "excusing debt". You want to twist long-standing legal protections (which corporations take advantage of all the time) into some kind of welfare. Spin much?

arendt

[redqueen]

113. That case was dismissed, IIRC. (nt)

[arendt]

119. Dismissed which way? Nike was sue-able for damages for lying ads? Or suits vs Nike dismissed? n/t

[redqueen]

120. Had to look it up... dismissed without decision...

Then, unexpectedly, the Court dismissed the case without rendering a decision,
characterizing certiorari as “improvidently granted.”12 Some concluded that the Court
had lost a valuable opportunity to revise a doctrine that was plagued with uncertainty.13
Others argued that the Court’s failure to address the uncertainty of the commercial
speech doctrine would have grave negative impacts on the willingness of corporations
to disclose information about their operations and thereby cut off a valuable source of
information.14
http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=templelr


... ugh.

[arendt]

121. That is frickin' murky. Wonder who got a horse's head in his bed? n/t

[redqueen]

122. I doubt that would even be necessary...

given the state of things.

That link is great, btw... well worth a read.

[arendt]

123. I got the article. Thanks. But, I'm no lawyer; so I will have to parse it at home. Tough read. n/t

[closeupready]

143. I'm with you, Arendt.

n/t

[Hamlette]

170. "bankruptcy protection"?

Why should you be allowed to discharge your debts at all?

What you call excessive interest rates have a place.

Say YOU were a bank (a necessary evil if you must, but necessary none the less). Would you lend money to someone with bad credit? No way.

But if the interest rate was high enough you would.

And, if you had horrid credit and needed a loan, high interest is better than no loan at all.

Which is why interest rates should be set by the market. And if you're smart enough to post on a web site about politics, you're smart enough to make sure you don't get ripped off by a bank.

I just don't understand why people think they can steal from someone else. Taking loans and not paying them off is theft.

IMHO.

[ReformedChris]

114. I work with Remittance (payment) processing and can tell you...

that credit card companies will jump on the first mistake or situation to trample the consumer. Is it a person's fault if they develop bad credit, yes, but the card companies are throwing people in a cave and not giving them a way out. Its pure exploitation in the end. We need to educate and properly instruct people on how credit works. We ALSO need legislation to prevent credit scores from being used for life essentials (apartment housing, electricity, water) and employment (what does my credit score have to do with my employment qualifications!?!??!).

[redqueen]

118. Hi ReformedChris...

welcome to DU. :hi:

[ReformedChris]

134. Thank You redqueen, it is a pleasure to be here,having the opportunity to get to know everyone! nt

[arendt]

138. Welcome to DU, Reformed Chris. Good point about legislation about credit scores. n/t

[methinks2]

163. Amen, chris

don't forget car insurance. They raise your rates if you're having trouble financially. The excuse is that if you're having money problems you will 'statistically" be having trouble concentrating when you drive.

[Hamlette]

173. I agree credit scores should not be used for everything

but borrowing money and not paying it back is theft. And I'd want to know if I was hiring a thief.

I was a small business person for years. I got ripped off by people writing bad checks and other ways (employee theft is a huge problem in the retail business.) I'm not so sympathetic to people who don't pay their bills (or make their checks good or steal from their employers.) Put me out of business and I lost money. Money I made legally and legitimately.

Rationalize it however you want.

There is another side.

suck it up and pay your bills.

(I make an exception for medical bills and necessities. If you see bankruptcy papers, which I do daily in my job, you'd be shocked. Cars, boats, trailers, stereo systems, entertainment centers, cell phones etc. etc. etc. All purchased when the party did not have enough money to pay for them.)

[arendt]

177. That's too broad. Borrowing money AT NON_USURIOUS RATES and not paying back is theft. n/t

[Hamlette]

193. And who gets to decide what is a usurious rate? I think I should get to decide that

I approved the rate when I borrowed the money. I made the decision to borrow money at that rate.

I should be held to my bargain.

If you don't want to pay that rate, don't borrow the money.

Or don't borrow the money, change your mind about the contract you made, call it usurious, and refuse to pay it back. That is theft. In my book.

[arendt]

194. Right. Like you get to negotiate with the emergency room while you're bleeding to death. LOL. n/t

[Hamlette]

195. I agreed the rules should be different for medical care

Credit card debt/bankruptcies/mortgage foreclosures are up in large part due to consumerism. Progressives used to believe rampant consumerism was a bad thing.

Maybe that was before we all had to have internet access, computers, and iPods.

I still think if you get in debt trouble from buying things you don't need you should pay your debt. If you let people discharge that type of debt in bankruptcy, two things happen: 1. I end up paying for it and 2. there is no incentive for people to stop living beyond their means.

[ReformedChris]

115. I work with Remittance (payment) processing and can tell you...

that credit card companies will jump on the first mistake or situation to trample the consumer. Is it a person's fault if they develop bad credit, yes, but the card companies are throwing people in a cave and not giving them a way out. Its pure exploitation in the end. We need to educate and properly instruct people on how credit works. We ALSO need legislation to prevent credit scores from being used against people for life essentials (apartment housing, electricity, water) and employment (what does my credit score have to do with my employment qualifications!?!??!).

[earth mom]

124. Glad to see that this didn't sink like a stone & has so many recs!

:kick:

[arendt]

126. As usual, I am perplexed by what gets highly recommended...

I dashed this thing off in half an hour because I was sick of reading horse-race threads. It succeeds. Stuff I have spent days editing goes nowhere. Go figure.

The OP seems to have touched a nerve. Lots of folks must be feeling the financial pain; and enough of them are awake to explain just exactly what is going on. Or maybe, everyone is sick of campaign flamewars and wants to talk about a subject we can all agree on.

arendt

[earth mom]

144. Many of us have been drowned out by all the H & O noise by a minority of loud DUers.

But most of us aren't going to be distracted or driven away by it.

The corruption runs too deep for them to cover it up with false hope & the cult of celebrity.

Kind of like trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

[Blappy]

128. nice article, but

blaming Joe Biden for the bankruptcy bill is asinine. There were fully 74 senators who voted for this piece if crap. Biden probably knew it was going to pass anyway and voted for it out of political expediency. Like many people who swallow disinformation, perhaps you have a mental loop going of "blame Biden" for this and somehow justify repeating it.

There were also 73 Dems in the House that voted in favor. Don't they deserve to share some blame?

I think it is much more the fault of the Repukes, they wanted this since 1998 and were in control in 2005 when it passed. Secondarily it is the fault of the 20 or so Dem Senators that voted for it, for whatever reasons. If the Dems had some guts, they would have filibustered it then or would repeal it now. Personally, I blame Grassley because he is my senator and sponsored this monstrousity.

Best government money can buy

[arendt]

133. Why do you defend Biden? He is literally known as "the Senator from MBNA". Exactly the same as...

the deceased Hawk, Henry "Scoop" Jackson, was known as the Senator from Boeing. You remember Scoop - the guy who gave Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz their start.

Perhaps you are uninformed about Biden's naked whoring for the banking industry? Perhaps you do not understand what a haven for corporate piracy his state, Delaware, is? Perhaps you thought that because he knows about foreign policy, he must be a nice guy?

Joe Biden will do as well as anyone to represent the financial industry "hostile takeover" of our Congress.

arendt

[Blappy]

148. Carper also

has guilt by association, being the other Senator from Delaware. Harry Reid voted for it - must be his fault. Or Hillary - she did not vote - obviously, she is to blame.

I would not defend anyone who voted in favor of the New Bankruptcy bill, or who did not vote against it.

Blaming someone like Biden, while true to a small extent, obfuscates the widespread blame that should be cast. It leaves the impression that Biden is bought and sold by MBNA (now owned by Bank of America), but Biden is one of the very few electeds who have not personally enriched themselves through their position. He is second only to Feingold (last I checked) in his (lack of) personal wealth. He owns no stocks. He is quite liberal, ranked the 4th most liberal Senator in some analyses. So I happen to like him for that and many other reasons. If he was such a minion of the financial industry, you could bet he would have received more corporate media attention in his presidential bid.

If all of our Congress critters had Biden's integrity, we likely would not now be confronting the financial crisis in our country. You are free to blame whomever, of course, but it makes you look like you have an axe to grind when you zone in on Biden for this crappy law.

Overall your article is enlightening, and at the same time sickening. There are so few bona fide populists in our government, we should all be disturbed by this article.

Thanks, Arendt

[Mountainman]

132. Does personal responsibility play a role here. This could have been prevented by people not

using credit.

My take is that we are so materialistic and believe that getting more stuff will make us happy. We can't afford the stuff so we buy on credit thus hooking ourselves. Now if we use more credit than we can repay then maybe we are peons. At least we are fools.

[arendt]

135. Been discussed. See posts #97 and #112. n/t

[truedelphi]

190. Look into the regressiveness of the tax tables

If your paycheck is on the grid, yo might be paying as much as 44%.

And that doesn't include health insurance.

22% Federal withholding + 15% for Social Security and then 3 to 5 % for incidentals like MediCare, stte taxes and all that.

All that deducted from an average paycheck.

One reason for the ads telling people to put their groceries on credit is because for many people - 40% to rent, 43% to taxes leaves them 17 % tio live on (Groceries, car payment,car insurance, gas money, the occasional pair off shoes) the mere fact of eating is a luxury.

And God help uyou if you need a dentist, doctor or meds!

[Desertrose]

136. Excellent post arendt...K&R...

I hope people take the time to read it & let it sink in if they are not already awake.


We have been slaves for sometime...buying into the illusion we need to but this or that to make us happier little worker drones...all the while the fat cats get fatter and we get more stressed by debt that is completely out of proportion to the ability to pay.

And who profits....?

Thanks, arendt....more people need this reality check.
Not pleasant to wake from this dream but its gonna happen one way or another.

[LSK]

150. Solutions???

[arendt]

151. See post #92 n/t

[LSK]

157. well how do you know how many people are changing their ways?

Maybe what you rail against is becoming known to more and more people.

Personally, my only debt is my 130k mortgage (6% fixed). I have some savings too. However if unemployment or sickness happens I'm screwed. And thats something that the government can protect us from with Universal Healthcare and better unemployment benefits.

[arendt]

160. I'm not sure what your point is. My solution is to tell people to get out of debt...

and to tell them to vote for people who will curtail the financial industry in all its malevolent forms: credit card usury, reckless mortgage lending, payday loans, ATM fees, crooked stock trading and derivatives.

I see you believe the government has the slightest interest in protecting anyone but the elites from hardship. I wish I had your faith. I don't see any of the "viable" candidates addressing this issue.

arendt

[xxqqqzme]

155. you get a kick from me

I have officially checked out of presidential politics. I am only working for local candidates cuz that's where the change is. Can't start at the top.

I don't even know what happened yesterday...have avoided the news; haven't read the stories. It has nothing to do w/ me anymore.

[arendt]

162. Me too. Got the full-court press about Obama from some FARC-reading BoBo in my office...

fist-of-death-must-control.

Yes. Screw the national election, before it screws you. Local is the way to go.

arendt

[Richard Steele]

156. K&R

[truedelphi]

158. Kucinich, Edwards and Ron Paul only ones talking about this.

Funny how Ron Paul got beat up on charges of "racism" that dated back decades.

It's okay for Presidential and other office-seeking candidates to want 85% of the populace to be enslaved, as long as the enslavement has nothing to do with race!

i am going to reopeat the above statement, as for me it is one of the hallmarks of what is so profoundly screwed up about the average "liberal" person's outlook - It's okay for candidates to want 85% of the populace to be enslaved, as long as the enslavement has nothing to do with race!

[closeupready]

165. But remember that DU is only moderately more liberal than other sites.

There are a number of members here who are right-wing, or shill for right-wing issues - make no mistake about that. So if some here say they are okay with "enslaving" 85% of the populace as long as it has nothing to do with race, but rather, indebtedness, then these members are likely to be those of the right-wing.

[truedelphi]

183. Gawd I hope it has to do with some people being RW

But a lot of times I think a lot of people just can't think straight.

[Blue_Tires]

166. ttt

[snappyturtle]

167. Kick!

:kick:

[Joe Chi Minh]

168. Formal peonage: the nightmare still gains momentum under a Democratic Congress.

It's all explained here:

http://uspolitics.tribe.net/thread/abb2282c-badb-464e-a08f-5bc8e63b1fd9

The link was posted yesterday by a DUer called "inna".

Here is a cartoon cameo on the topic; specifically, on the neocons' edification of Iraq. It's a terrible slur on true evangelicals, mind you.

[arendt]

172. I'm aware of the ponerology thesis. Haven't decided about it yet.

My reaction is: if it were true, why have I heard absolutely zero about it. Of course, to answer "because the PTB don't want you to" lands you smack in downtown conspriracy-ville. But, to blow them off for that is unfair.

So, I sit back and hope someone with more time and a better BS/dirty tricks sensor than me can suss it out.

arendt

[Joe Chi Minh]

178. Surely, arendt, it's largely a matter of observation. I came to many of the

same conclusions without reference to academic findings - at least direct reference. So, what's to decide?

As it happens, the author mentions tests relating to words with a characteristically emotive effect on non-psychopaths and on psychopaths, and the light it throws on the emotionally-challenged world that psychopaths inhabit. A different dimension in a very real sense. There are people who can murder their spouse and carry them around in the boot of their car, and not bat an eyelid if approached by a police officer.

Look. Let me put it this way. Don't listen to the author's words. Just consider the way the county is run, beginning with the economy. The actions of the Great and the Good in government are all the proof you need, to know with irrefragible certainty that even the good ones are carried along by the reigning ethos to a degree, although they will direct their energies, as best they can, towards introducing humanity and compassion to government. As the author pointed out, it actually makes sense.

Just consider the current rulers of much of the world; then the leaders of mankind thoughout its history. Clearly, psychopaths are very well-represented.

[arendt]

179. What I wonder about is the seemingly scientifically-determined 6% figure.

It sounds so concrete, but how was it really determined; and why lead with the number?

I don't doubt there are sociopaths and that the successful ones are very rich and powerful. If there isn't anything more to the thesis than 6% of people will join the sociopaths, no matter what, then what is the value-add of this thesis - even if 6% is a reproducible statistic? As you say, people intuitively know this. I am trying to figure out what, if anything, ponerology adds to our defenses.

I am following the research on examining mirror neuron activity in incarcerated sociopaths to see whether or not we can find a sound scientific test that can detect this pathology. Then we put a label on them that makes "sex offender" look like a girl scout badge.

arendt

[Joe Chi Minh]

198. That research itself sounds like the idea, if not entirely the work of psychopaths. "Human rights"

is a widely abused expression, but I don't think even the worst of the worst should be subjected to physical examinations of any such kind without the prisoners' informed consent. Which I doubt occurs. "Human rights" is usually in the UK (and even more notably, perhaps, the EU) a coded expression of atheist politicians, not for human rights, at all, since humans require boundaries and even responsiblities, if they are to enjoy anything approaching true freedom as appreciably fulfilled human beings. Rather it is the limitless, self-gratifying licence they are busy garnering for themselves in their poisonous, Frankenstein-inspired scientific research and its sibling field of right-wing economics.

The author actually stated that the 6% to which he (and you) refer, could never be exact, and would differ to some extend according to the society, its history, etc. Pretty much along those lines. I'm not sure of the history, but it would seem to me to be a significant factor.

Ordinarily, I find the very notion of the human psyche being the subject of any empirical scientific studies beyond laughable, but it does seem to me that statistical patterns could be another matter all together.

If by the word, "intuition", you mean anecdotal observation, on the other hand, that, to me, would also essentially seem to afford a quite reliable assessment, where such extreme behaviours are concerned. Powerful people who originate policies which cause immense and gratuitous suffering to others, in peace as well as war (in the former case, with regard to the general public, almost invariably on specious economic grounds), seems to me to be a good starting point for suspecting psychopathy.

But it was the identification of that other 12% within that context which I found so fascinating. How it could take a grip of virtually a whole nation. It's interesting to think that General Smedley Butler would have started off as a member of this group, but found that as the years passed, he saw more and more clearly the viciouness of US imperial policy in S. America, the Phillipines, all over the world, and tried to atone for it.

The wonderful former CIA analyst, Ray McGovern, who is a fierce critic of the same kinds of monstrous behaviour by his former employers, speaking at different venues around the country, I believe, mentioned that he believed a close colleague of his, engaged in the same kind of work, had committed suicide because he couldn't bear to think of what he had been complicit in fomenting in S. America. So, it seems that some individuals may essentially be engaged in some essentially psychopathic activity, while demonstrating other mitigating characteristics. I believe the author had this in mind, too, when seeking to categorise individuals.

In short, I'm not sure that the author would have believed that any understanding of the human psyche would possibly be accessible to empirical science, although perhaps he does, since he appears to be an atheist or at least, an agnostic. But it seems to me that a combination of anecdotal observation, intuition and statistical studies can be of priceless value in this particular subject area, and I think this was his theme.

I believe in Aldous Huxley's Perennial Philosophy, he settled for somatotomic endomorphs (the athletically built types) as being the seminal trouble-makers in society, according to the classification of a psychologsist called Sheldon (you will presumably be familiar with), though he admitted that dictators tend by and large to be short and tubby mesomorphs.

I have found that increasingly UK politicians and their friends in the business world say the most outrageously crazy things, notably in a programme called Question Time. The studio audience in the last one I saw seemed pretty worldly and sharp, yet they let this character off when he peddled the most utterly laughable nonsense - as if they were too stunned. Or was it because he was ultimately perceived as "monied and respectable" like themseves, caught up, in spite of themselves, in this "respectable, monied" cultural mindset. The spokesman of another politician, who had been found to have failed to declare donations he had received from lobbysists - it turned out to be endemic among all of them - and appeared to have tried to launder them through an inoperative "think-tank", intoned in the most unctuous and lordly manner, almost as if touting for his boss to be nominated for a Nobel prize, "I can tell you that Mr bla bla has fully cooperated with the investigation."!!!! You had to hear it to get the humour. You could almost smell burning incense and see the whisps of perfumed smoke rising. This humour, too, made the article fascinating. The man who'd killed both his parents and pleaded for sympathy because he was an orphan! I don't know if your politicians are as barmy as ours, but I'm looking forward keenly to the next Question Time.

I've mentioned a few times on here that most politicians in the UK appear to be either extreme sociopaths or outright psychopaths, both at the national level and the local level, and the reason for that is very simple, but imo, totally incontrovertible. The utter turpitude into which this country has sunk and continues to sink, unabated. A highly accelerated decline, I might add, since Thatcher put an end to the right-left consensus on maintaining the welfare state and Christianity as the official State religion, of the Labour party and the one-nation Tories.

[BeHereNow]

186. That is the BEST thing I have read in YEARS! Aside from Arendt posts of course.

Seriously- that article should be mandatory reading for
every person on the planet.

Long, but SOOOOOOOO enlightening.

BHN

[Kitty Herder]

184. Let's talk about solutions to this problem.

Frankly, I'm at a loss as to what to do. It makes me feel helpless and hopeless. But perhaps together we can create ideas and act on them.

[arendt]

192. Rolling back credit card rates seems obvious...

even though it will fail at first, it will shine a light on these skeevey banks.

Outlawing payday loans (or capping their rates, like CC) is another obvious, easy-to-understand thing to do.

When you write laws that people can see the results of in their daily lives, you tend to get re-elected. That is, if you can raise enough money with no corporate financing.

arendt

[Orwellian_Ghost]

196. Kicka-bumpa

[BeHereNow]

197. Me too- KICK!

BHN