Why Bobbolink is Homeless

[undergroundpanther]

Why I'm Homeless -- Necessarily Long, but I hope instructive...

Introductory Information

Many years ago, when my child was first kidnapped and I was stunned into dysfunctionality, I was able on public support to go find and rent my own apartment. Now, the pay is so low that there is NOTHING, not even a garage, that one can afford to rent on public assistance. Disabled and elderly people, many of us getting as low as $637 a month!, are forced into public housing. There are 9 million of us who need public housing. There are 6 million units available. Even a first grader can do that math... there are 3 million of us at any given time to have no place to live.

I was living in one of these Section 8 apartments. I didn't want to be there.. middle of the downtown of a big city, depressing as hell, and LOUD. Most of these buildings are privately owned, which most people don't realize, and there is NO oversight as to how they are run. From the beginning in this building, which was owned and operated by the next door Buddhist Temple, there was at least one manager who was just downright MEAN. And elderly Japanese man, he always had a mean word for anyone who crossed his path. It was clear, after being there for a while, that they definitely favored their own, which was understandable to me, but it certainly gave me first-hand experience in what it's like to be the minority, and treated as such. I tried to take the experience in that light. One of their favorite things, knowing that we were trapped with no options, was to tell us that if we didnt' like it there, we should move. That'll mess with your head over time. At one point, I got to know the Buddhist priest, and when I told him this is what was said to us, he got angry, and said, "This is America, and nobody should be told to leave!" For a while that particular ugliness stopped... the priest had obviously had words with the management.

Then that particular priest left, and so did the old manager, only to be replaced by another one who cared about us even less, and was only out for her own agrandizement. That was soon followed by an assistant manager who was not only as mean as the old guy, but lived in the building and went out of his way to speak horridly to every tenant he came across, at whatever time of day. It made life a living hell. There was no escape from the meanness.

One time this little hitler commenced to yelling at one of the tenants during a tenant meeting... he was very abusive, and went on a tirade. There was much uproar about this, and apparently even the shy little old Japanese ladies complained to the Buddhist Temple. The little hitler was told that he must go to therapy if he wanted to keep his job. Well, I knew that would take the problem off the table temporarily, and sure enough, within a matter of months, he was back at it, yelling at people in the office, in the lobby, outside in the garden, just wherever he chose to abuse us. Many people saw the futility, and those who could, moved from the building, which meant many long-term residents left. That still didn't affect the powers that be.

One day my neighbor down the hall, David, a very sweet and quiet person, who always had a smile and kind greeting for everyone, told me that he had been humiliated by little hitler one too many times. One day, he got on the elevator, and little hitler was the only other one in the elevator. He told me he got right in his face, started yelling at him, and told him that NEVER AGAIN would he tolerate his abuse. He told me he said to him, "I know where you live, and I will come get you, take you to the pent house and dangle you over the edge by your feet while you cry and beg for mercy. Then I'll just happen to let go, and laugh as you tumble down those 20 floors. Oh, and by the way, should you decide to tell someone.... I *never* said a word to you." I said, "David! You didn't really do that!" He said, "yup, I did, and he has avoided me ever since!" When an abuser can turn a quiet, sweet person like David into one who threatens violence, then the situation has become horrendous!

David was quite ill, and the last thing he needed was abuse. There were many elderly people in the building who were doing everything they could just to hold on and not be sent to a nursing home. They certainly didn't need abuse. There were many other ill people who couldn't spare the energy to deal with this crap --one woman I particularly remember had cancer, and just hid in her apartment to avoid him. What a life.

One day I saw this little hitler pushing and pulling an elderly chinese woman -- Because she couldn't speak English! -- and he just about had her down to the pavement. I yelled at him .. "Mike, STOP! We're human beings, not cattle!" Apparently I surprised him enough that he let up pressure just enough that she got away. Another few seconds, and he might very well have had her down, and who knows what bones might have been broken. She was shaking like a leaf, and I tried to reassure her, without Chinese, that I was going to stay with her, and that it wasn't her fault. There were other tenants around, but nobody spoke up.... that is the nature of abuse and power.

The family of this woman immediately moved her out of the building, and she was gone. I spent days making phone calls, trying to find an organization which would DO something, now that we had clear evidence of PHYSICAL abuse. To no avail.... each organization only referred me to another one, and another one, ad nauseum. I gave up. I couldn't believe that even physical abuse had no recourse, but that is the fact.

As you can imagine, he turned his wrath on me. No good deed, etc. All this time, since he was the one we had to go through to get our yearly Section 8 recertifications, we had been avoiding him. We went to the Resources Coordinator for the building, who would get the papers from little hitler, we would fill them out and get copies of the necessary documents and give them to her, and she would turn them into him, then she'd get the paper back for us to sign, and turn the signed paper back into him. After my clash with him, he would no longer accept this, as he couldn't stand that people could avoid him. He made up his own rule, which was NOT HUD rule, that we had to go through him. The Resource Coordinator would no longer stand up to him, and the manager of the building insisted we all obey his homemade rule.

I knew that I could NOT deal with him alone, so I went back to the phone, and after 3 days of constant calls, it was clear there was NO RECOURSE... either suffer the abuse or leave. I finally did what I didn't want to do, and went to the Victim's Assistance program, knowing it was inevitable that would mean the cops would be drawn in. This city, Denvoid, is known for abusive cops, and I had dealt with a few of them when my car was broken in, so this was the very last resort for me.

The Victim's advocate was the ONLY one who took an interest at all. She was appalled at the abuse. Of course, she wanted me to talk with a cop. This is the one little bit of humor... the officer who came in is named.... Snow White. I kid you not. Well, dear Snow showed no compassion, no sign at all that she had any empathy for what we were going through. She did, however, agree to go with me when I had to meet with little hitler for my recertification.

We agreed to meet in the lobby at 1pm, and the door to the office was still closed. When it opened and we went in, all the managers were in there, and the sound was palpable as their jaws hit the floor to see a cop in full uniform with gun and all accompanying me to see little hitler. I said nothing to him, and he was clearly shaken.

When the business was concluded and the cop and I left, we got out the door and she turned to me and said, "Well, how was it?" I just burst out laughing, and said that was the first time he had spoken in a tone that could be heard. She looked at me puzzled, and I said, "His favorite thing, especially with elders who have little hearing, is to talk very softly, so nobody can hear him. Then, when we say, "I didn't hear you", HE YELLS AT US.. What a dear. Anyway, I asked the cop to keep a file on him, and she was clearly not wanting to, but gave me her card, and said she'd see if she could open a file.

Thereafter, I made up little cards that I carried around with me that had both the phone number for the Victim Advocate and the cop (yes, many didn't believe there could actually be an officer named Snow White!). When someone would complain to me about little hitler, I'd say, Do you want to do something about it? If they said no, I just replied, Sorry, complaining won't help, and I can't listen to complaints anymore. I'd had enough of helplessness, and trying single-handedly to get action. If they said yes, if there was something to do, they would, I'd give them a card, and tell them to call those numbers and make a complaint where it could have an effect. I found out later that even one of the staff people called the cop to complain! I was told that the cop actually called the Resources Coordinator and basicallly said, "What the hell is going on there?!" Apparently the cop had had enough calls of complaint to make her realize it wasn't just me.

However, I was told that nothing could be done. That if the little hitler abused one group but not another, they could get him on descrimination. But since he was an equal opportunity abuser, we'd just have to live with it or move.

Now, lest you think this building was just one rotten apple in the barrel, let me assure you that is not the case. During this time I was working with an organization devoted to getting single-payer health care. I had come to know one of the doctors involved with this effort, and had told her what I was dealing with in this group. I had learned about a Section 8 tenants group, and set her up to speak about health care at their next meeting. She later told me that during their break, she listened to their conversations, and they were all asking each other where they lived, if there were vacancies, and how the management was. They ALL were upset with the abuse of the management in all the buildings, and trying to find something better! This made quite an impresssion on this doctor, and she was taking me much more seriously after that.

Another of my neighbors (David had died by this time.... which is why I feel like I can use his name...) got fed up with the abuse, and set up a tenants meeting with a lawyer from Legal Aid, a HUD representative, someone from the Housing Authority, and several other "officials". She asked me to take part, and I said I would if I could, but I knew by then there was nothing that could be done unless all the tenants got together and staged a HUGE rebellion. At this meeting, they were basically told what I had been told before... nothing could be done. She came to me afterwards and said, "You were right, and I can't fight it anymore." She left and moved into a nother building and told me later that the management was better, but it was horribly infested with bugs.

After the year with the cop, I had a Lutheran pastor who would accompany me for about 5 years as I had to apply for recertification. With his presence, little hitler wasn't so abusive. Then, he changed the date of the recertifications, and the pastor was out of town. I had been very ill, and was at the end of what I could deal with. I also knew that I was wearing out, and couldn't take any more abuse, or I'd become just as ugly as they were. So, I finally decided to just leave. Just pull out and leave all my stuff behind, and just take off.


First and foremost, EVERYONE should be receiving enough money to be able to rent a market rate apartment! By forcing us into public housing we are made a special and powerless group, at the mercy of those who would take advantage of us, and they KNOW we're powerless, and like to make sure we know that, too.

Second, EVERY public and private organization or government entity that serves poor and homeless people MUST include the voices and needs and wants of that group of people! This should go without saying, and it used to be a given. At the very least, there needs to be an ombudsman, seperate from the entity, where the people "served" can make reports on what they have dealt with, how they were treated, whether their needs were met, etc.

Both sHill and Abamination are going to run right out and draft legislation that would protect people like me from this kind of abuse, right? Riiiiggghhhhtttt......

With the shortage of public housing, who is going to take on the issue of rampant abuse in said housing?

We can give $$$ to Coalition for the Homeless, but they already know of this, and are doing.... what?

There are many Civil Rights organizations..... who among them is supporting people abused in public housing? None, that I could find...

Does Edwards' Institute on poverty have a section that addresses abuse and legal problems of those in public housing? What would it take to get him to include this and move on it?

How can we organize some massive interviews of people who are living in public housing, to find the measure of the problem?

I know this is long and involved, and a huge problem. But PLEASE take the time to read, digest what the reality is, and let's put our heads together. There is CONSIDERABLE brain wattage here with Edwardians, and I think we can come up with some ideas!

Thank you for all your considerable support!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So,
Check it out and READ the thread!!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=257&topic_id=5822&mesg_id=5822

[Greyskye]

1. Wow.

Too bad this was buried in the Edwards Forum. Thanks for the cross-post!

K&R

[knitter4democracy]

2. And that's only part of it. The rest of the story is much worse.

*sigh* There are so many things broken, and JE was our best hope. I don't know what we can do to get our next president to finally do something about poverty. Remember that war? It was before the War on Drugs, but we sure don't hear about it anymore.

[topaz_eyes]

5. Third-worldization of the U.S. is proceeding apace. nt

[Annces]

3. Recommend n/t

[Yael]

4. Thanks for reposting

[iamjoy]

6. Just Astounding (eom)

[pamela]

7. K & R

Thanks for posting this.

[RadioactiveCarrot]

8. This is heart wrenching.

Bobbolink was one of the ones who consistently talked about poverty and it is very sad to see.

In a just world, it wouldn't be a political issue at all. It would be taken care of, based on the basic necessary needs of fellow human beings.

:hug: for Bobbolink. I'm sorry :(

Any politician who ignores this deserves to be tossed out on their ass.

[calimary]

13. Welcome to DU!

Yeah - She used to post here so often. She certainly has raised MY consciousness to a more active mode about the issue of poverty. We've had long email conversations back and forth about the issues and poverty and homelessness - from her front-row-center view.

It's one of THE biggest topics in this weird old obscure book that maybe only a few people in this day and age have ever even heard of... can't remember the name exactly - something about Bi- and Ble? Oh yeah! Bible! That's it!

:sarcasm:

Seriously, I forget who first pointed it out - in the context of talking about the sanctimonious Bible-thumpers of politics who wrap themselves around The Cross and give the rest of us a bad name. But the comment was about how there are maybe three mentions of homosexuality IN ALL OF THE BIBLE, Old AND New Testaments. There are maybe three or so THOUSAND mentions of the poor. So where should our emphasis be placed?

[The Straight Story]

9. kick for my friend bobbolink (NT)

[ChiciB1]

105. One From Me Too!

:kick: AND a BIG :hug: bobbolink!

we're gonna try to do SOMETHING, because as I see it, "we the people" are good for ONLY ONE THING! OUR VOTE, and then they IGNORE US and basically, while not literally, say "shut-up and sit down!"

FLAME AWAY... I'm SUPER MAD, but I'm also disgusted by how THIS HORSE RACE is being run!! Sore Loser?? Not on YOUR Life! Just someone who REALLY CARES!!

[annabanana]

10. Thank you for posting this here.

I spent just enough time myself around the edges of this world, so that I can see it as clear as day, and smell it too. The helplessness is palpable and every small thing that most Americans take for granted is a massive struggle. I am in awe of people who can withstand the constant abuse and beating down, and still have the spirit to fight the system.

[smokey nj]

11. K&R!!!!

[vickitulsa]

12. This is why I live the way I do, also.

I've been on Disability as my sole source of income since 1999, and was only able to survive fairly well after that when my mother's income from Dad's pension (he was a State Trooper) gave her plenty of extra funds to help me out -- usually a couple hundred dollars each month.

Last year Mom had to be moved to a full care facility which takes every dime of her monthly income, so there is nothing left to help me. I have friends who live in public housing and have visited them there -- and was appalled and truly frightened at how they had to live and the abuse they had to endure.

So I swore I would stay OUT of public housing no matter what. Before Mom started helping me, I did apply for Section 8 and any other housing assistance available, but the ONLY place I was shown was a huge old downtown building (very bad part of town), and the waiting list was long. I was just too scared to live there anyway.

So I have remained in my 1973 motorhome -- a decrepit old heap that hasn't run in years. I've been in an RV park on the edge of Tulsa since 2003. Moved in this park the day the Iraq War started, in fact.

Over time, and without maintenance and repairs which I cannot afford, things have broken down and stopped working. I have had no hot water for five years, and as of this winter when the water line broke, no running water in the house at all. I have to go outside and run water into containers and bring them in. The old toilet has be flushed by pouring water into it.

I can't use the propane stove because it's so rusty it leaks the gas into the house. And it's impossible to either heat or cool this old dump properly due to too many drafts, even though there is only 20 feet of living space.

Yet I stay on here, paying over half my monthly income for the lot rent (which does cover electric, basic cable, and water), and that leaves me only about $360 to live on each month. It's not much of a life, but I prefer it to the misery that living in public housing would be. At least here I have my privacy and peace and quiet, can have my dog for companionship, and don't have to live in fear!

What I fear most now is the rapidly rising cost of groceries!

I've come to believe that nothing will ever be done in this country for the poor, because, as Bobbolink's story clearly reveals, we are the powerless, the voiceless, the forgotten and discarded.

Thanks for posting her story here, undergroundpanther. I think of Bobbolink a LOT. :(

[knitter4democracy]

14. And this is why we need a real program to help adults.

Kids get foster care (which, admittedly, is bad for too darn many). What do adults get? A hodgepodge of crazy bureaucracy that becomes a full-time job to negotiate--and then benefits are cut for no reason and often with little notice. You should be able to get help with your trailer without having to beg or ask a million different offices. There should be one place to go, fill out a form requesting help with running water and the stove, and that be it.

We need a Secretary of the Poor (but with a better name) who consolidates all those programs under one roof and then has mobile and brick-and-mortor offices with everything anyone could need. Food stamps (which need to be expanded), disability, Medicaid (which needs serious help), welfare--all of it and new stuff for housing help and more. All in one place. Social workers who can help people negotiate the craziness. With comfy chairs in the waiting room and nice lighting and a lunchroom that takes food stamps.

[undergroundpanther]

17. Did you know there

are No as in ZERO, zilch, Nada.. shelters in Baltimore city for homeless women??

[knitter4democracy]

64. You're kidding!

Even small-city Battle Creek has one. Eep!

[undergroundpanther]

73. nope not kidding

Wish I WAS kidding.Oh and BTW if you are transgender and homeless you are so screwed.GBLT people that are homeless have no recourse here especially women.

[knitter4democracy]

79. It just keeps getting worse and worse, doesn't it.

Ugh. Well, you'd always have a home with me, UP. :hug:

[undergroundpanther]

94. Right now

I got a home. I am very tempted to ask bobbolink to set up camp in my asshole free zone.I offered to send some money but Bobbo refused.I even wanted to send a prepaid phone card that was given to me,nope bobbo wouldn't take it.However bobbo sent me a beautiful postcard with a cool ass cougar stamp on it and a great handout on the cycle of abuse.

[knitter4democracy]

110. Just in case.

:)

I offered her a place, too, but she needs mountains, and Michigan doesn't have those. I can understand that--my mom's sister has the same need. If you ever run into anything, just let me know.

[ChiciB1]

106. AND Did YOU Know That Even Down Here In Florida... The Shut Down

shelters and people aren't allowed to even sleep on the beach???

I sometimes called this country THE U.S. OF ASS!!

[smokey nj]

18. Those are all great ideas.

[undergroundpanther]

21. Don't get me started on medicaid

Sometimes I get so mad at the hassles and bullshit I wanna punch my fist all the way to the other end of the phone line.

[knitter4democracy]

65. Oh, I know. Frankly, I think it needs to be lumped in with Medicare.

Why not? Medicare's at least mostly decent, but Medicaid is just plain awful. Why not put the two together to ease out some of the costs? Then, once that's in place, we can open up the rolls to more and more people and then end up with single payer health care. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. The idea of a guaranteed annual income floated around for a while

in the 1960s and 1970s.

The idea was that whether you worked or not, you wouldn't be able to fall below a certain income level.

One illustration in support of it was the situation in New York City's "welfare hotels." Families were living (probably still are) in what were originally single rooms in hotels, and the city was paying so much for each room that simply GIVING the families the money would have enabled them to rent market-rate apartments.

[undergroundpanther]

75. Just like Baltimore does

For some and it sucks. A total waste of money.I wish they'd get some boarded up places and just renovate them and let people squat there.Make art co-ops make garden co ops,there are tons of things one could do if the richies running things were decent people and not so damn scared of other people they can't control having freedom. Abusive assholes gravitate to places where they can intimidate people who are trapped sick or poor. If there only was a way to fight bully landlords,bully spouses,bully staff,ect.and take their power away and stomp them to dust without being penalized by the system that is built to protect bullies. This song got me through section 8,I used to sing it under my breath with my headphones on when I walked to the rental office to make sure rent got there on time.


"Let's Lynch The Landlord" by Dead Kennedys

The Landlord's here to visit
They're blasting disco down below
Sez, "I'm doubling up the rent
Cos the building's condemned
You're gonna help me buy City Hall"

But we can, you know we can
But we can, you know we can
Let's lynch the landlord man

I tell them 'turn on the water'
I tell 'em 'turn on the heat'
Tells me 'All you ever do is complain'
Then they search the place when I'm not here

But we can, you know we can
Let's lynch the landlord
Let's lynch the landlord
Let's lynch the landlord man

There's rats chewin' up the kitchen
Roaches up to my knees
Turn the oven on, it smells like Dachau, yeah
Til the rain pours thru the ceiling

But we can, you know we can
Let's lynch the landlord man


(I had no rats due to sneaking in cats ( no rats other than my pet rat Ivory)and no roaches because I know how to repel them but my neighbors had roaches)

[biermeister]

86. DKs Rock!

[bobbolink]

122. Yes, that was Nixon. Our LAST LIBERAL PRESIDENT.

Pretty sad, eh?

[Neecy]

166. Vicki...

I read your post a couple of days ago and I can't get you out of my mind. It infuriates me that Bush's friends can make millions from their connections but we can't provide a living wage to those on disability.

No American should live without running water. Have you gotten an estimate to see how much repairing the water line and replacing your water heater would cost? I'd be glad to chip in to help with the repairs, because people shouldn't have to live like this. You aren't forgotten and discarded. You're among friends here.

[varelse]

15. Thank you for cross-posting this

I'd have missed it if you hadn't - and it is well worth reading.

[Triana]

16. "When an abuser can turn a quiet, sweet person like David into one who threatens violence..."

NOW maybe one can understand what happens to women/spouses who are abused by their partners....then again maybe not.

Because that is another form of abuse society has always condoned.

Sorry to distract from your original subject - abuse of all kinds is rampant in our society. Women, animals, children, the elderly, sick, the poor.

We (as a society - not necessarily on DU) accept it - why I don't know but we do - as long as we don't have to look at or see it much or can make convenient excuses for it - or blame someone else - usually the victims of it.


Sad. This race WILL collapse beneath the weight of its own inability to evolve.

[undergroundpanther]

19. It's not about evolving

Some of us are very evolved we can get along even if our personalities clash and we are ethically strong enough to not only care but know why we need to care..

But the problem is in eliminating those among us who refuse to live with others fairly or in peace.And teaching caring people to turn off the caring and refusing to keep on letting charismatic abusive assholes get away with anything bad they do no matter what claims to status or expertise they pull out of that swollen ego and entitlement shit they say,excuses ,more excuses and bullshit whatever..Because we need to call out the assholes and bullies,liars con men and abusive fuck faces out on the carpet when evil is done, call it evil.. The problem is with OUR lack of discretion with our empathy for our fellow human beings,We suffer when we project ourselves upon the psychopaths,narcissists and authoritarian personalities.. When we act as if they were like us, and hope they feel remorse they fake it,and truth be told these toxic personalities are NOT like us..So,being that who they are is too toxic for us to exist around without being traumatized, they must be contained away from us,and kept away from power,money, privilege and sadly if they exist around others,privacy or even sometimes freedom or even not allowed to exist anymore because if given a chance to act as a free person they will use freedoms to abuse and manipulate power and people because they think they can get away with it,or they are entitled to do that because they think they are better and can rearrange reality so they truth is never revealed and their hurtful games can go on...




Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern of the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken. And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless. You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience that they seldom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world. You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered.

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm

[Triana]

26. I understand ....

...I know of psychopaths. I've had my run-ins with a few. I can't disagree with a word you've written.

[undergroundpanther]

27. Thank you

It's time we stopped calling ourselves un-evolved, because we are evolved.Likewise it is time we stopped trying to make those who refuse to evolve,change.Because psychopaths authoritarians and narcissists they could care less about our well being ,so it's time we CARED LESS about THEM.

[Triana]

33. Possible resources for recourse....

...I know nothing of these organizations but started the search at UNC's Poverty Center and went from there:

UNC's Poverty Center (the one started by John Edwards) - National Resources Page
http://www.law.unc.edu/centers/poverty/resources/national.aspx

CONTACT the center and ask them what can be done about issues of abuse/cruelty in public housing:
[e-mail].
[phone]



Community Action Partnership (is there one in your area and can they help with these cruelty/abuse issues?)
http://www.communityactionpartnership.com/about/links/map.asp


Other links to potential resources/help:
http://www.law.unc.edu/centers/civilrights/organizations.aspx

[Truth2Tell]

20. I actually had to stop reading this and finish later

because I became so angry.

:grr:

Some may think it improper to direct this anger at Democratic as well as Republican politicians. Not me.

[undergroundpanther]

24. Be mad

I am,The democrats voted for Bush's fucked up budget.. They are screwing the poor too. Remember the term Hillary Poor? That wonderful clinton games of "welfare reform"? Obama and Hillary are both loyal corporate shills. They say the same old shit,and tout healthcare that profits corporations and screw the poor..They won't change things because they BOTH are already bought and paid for thier tails are tucked tightly in the presence of their corporate sponsors .

The real challengers to the status quo were Edwards and Kucinich. They were virtually ignored by the media.On purpose. Unelectable,and the Dems even on DU MADE SURE they wouldn't be.. So yeah I am mad and I am cynical and for the most part lost any pretense of trust in the good nature of the Dem party now.I know I am so beyond disenfranchised by these political people I am invisible.I don't exist unless they wanna cut a program for the poor then they cut it to ribbons give me 5 times more hassle which pisses me off 10 times more, and I see their comfortable well off pampered asses tell me how wonderful it is to be helping us and how it will help the rich save money and how happy the middle class will be spending three bucks less next tax season...Fuck 'em all.



Clinton’s domestic agenda was first announced as a gigantic jobs-creation program coupled with a determined effort to guarantee health care for all. But, Zinn notes, Clinton quickly betrayed these declared campaign priorities by “concentrating on reduction of the deficit, which under Reagan and Bush I had left a national debt of $4 trillion.” This emphasis, Zinn argued, “meant that there would be no bold programs of expenditures for universal health care, education, child care, housing, the environment, the arts, or job creation.” Clinton’s “small gestures” toward social democracy did “not come close to what was needed in a nation where one-fourth of the children lived in poverty; where homeless people lived on the streets in every major city; where women could not look for work for lack of child care; where the air, the water were deteriorating dangerously.”

More than being merely inadequate to the needs of America’s millions of truly disadvantaged citizens, the Clinton administration actually attacked the disproportionately non-white poor in numerous interrelated ways. Clinton signed a punitive neoliberal welfare “reform” bill that ended the federal government’s guarantee of financial help to impoverished families with dependent children.

http://thoughtmerchant.wordpress.com/2007/10/05/how-bill-clinton-hurt-poor-blacks-and-how-hillary-might-to/

[rucognizant]

63. On the other hand......

Call Mitch McConnell, (R. Senate minority Leader) and give him an earfull! He is the master at OBstuction in the Senate and just led the turn-down of the stimulus package to Seniors and Vets, calling them "Pet Projects". How does that feel bobbolink and otheres in a tight spot? To be Repug's pet project?
I called his DC office 3 times, when I got put on hold, I tried 2 of his Kentucky offices before getting a live voice who didn't put me on hold!
Then I blasted the poor young intern there in my best Victorian schoolmarm voice............. I recommend you all do it on behalf of those who can't afford it., don't have phone/internet service!. Makes you feel a little better!
I am NOT anyone's PET PROJECT! My Greatgrandparents, Grandparents, Parents, lived out their lives in comfort on SS incomes.................
Me not so much!

[alarimer]

34. We should be mad at Democrats.

Part of this is Bill Clinton's fault for calling for and signing into law the welfare reform act with its lifetime limitations on benefits. Sadly the corporate Dems in office and running for President have shown no willingness to help.

[bobbolink]

114. "Part of this is Bill Clinton's fault for calling for and signing into law the welfare reform act "

ABSO - FUCKING - LUTELY!!

:applause:

I'm so tired of people who praise him endlessly and with such adoration, and give not one fig for those who suffered because of him.

They think that because THEY prospered during his reign, that it was a dream time.

Not only did he hurt people, but it was strictly political, and he didn't care who he hurt. He didn't care so much that they weren't even tracked.... nobody knows how many ended up homeless... nobody knows how many died!!

:nuke:

Thank you so much for speaking out on this! It needs to be repeated again and again for those who are in such heavy denial!

[Baby Snooks]

137. And what says Madame Speaker?

I read this and thought about her comment about how they arrest people for being homeless in San Francisco. Which really sums up the Democratic response which has been about as much of a response as the Republicans.

Quite a few dismiss the homeless and look upon those on disability who have to depend on Section 8 housing with disdain. Democrats.

I've notice the wealthier the Democrat, the more disdainful the Democrat. Which seems to be a mirror of what happens with Republicans.

This is yet another indication of what is coming down the pike with Hillary Clinton in the White House. More and more people homeless. Some of them homeless when they had their rent money garnished from their wages to pay for her universal health care.

That comment by Nancy Pelosi will echo for me the rest of my life. If I ever meet her, I will tell her to her face what a despicable human being she is. As is anyone who would continue to support her.

[Swamp Rat]

22. k&r

[bobbolink]

23. I have mixed feelings about this being posted here..... I"ve been bashed so much at DU

that I don't trust DUers to have compassion, or caring, and I've also been stalked by a DUer.

Now that it's here, I will just have to hope for the best.

[undergroundpanther]

25. Bobbolink

There will be assholes.
But that does not mean you should EVER,Ever stop saying your piece.
I get bashed here too but I'll be damned if it will EVER silence me.
You see I know there are always critics and plenty of net bullies,but know what? fuck them and their snark opinions and bully bullshit.
Like I have told these fucking little twerps before Don't read my threads, use the ignore button and grow the fuck up.I will say what I say regardless I do not say my stuff to please critical bullying anal retentive,stupid,snarky assholes.

I say my piece to those who find it useful, inspiring or shows them something they didn't think of,or never related to before .

In other words I write with no regrets. I let it fly chips fall where they may and I don't care who gets their toes smashed. I trust my own words and my own story and my own truth will will out.
My integrity will show my true colors to any who wish to understand it and what I mean,and try to communicate.
So,Fuck'em if they are a bully or project their issues on you.THEY DON'T MATTER!!!So don't bother with reading their crap after the first verbally abusive post ok? You are not obligated to read verbal abuse and reply to it as if it was a genuine respondent and be nice to assholes.They do not deserve your respect.

That is why I don't give a shit if A bully gets his widdle feelings hurt when I ignore him or expose his bullshit for all to see..Bullies CHOOSE to bully by their own free choice..So make them accountable for it.Use them as a scratching post.

You have every right to have a voice here,and to me, it's VERY worthy of being heard especially here in GD... That is why I reposted it. I care about you Bobbolink you are one of the most awesome people here as far as this Cat is concerned.

[seemslikeadream]

28. I just made my first video Sunday night

:hug:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkv-gZqrAeE

[Subdivisions]

31. Just. wow...

Thank you, SLAD. A very touching presentation. Bravo.

Watch it here on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x90732

[RebelOne]

58. That made me cry. I couldn't watch the whole thing.

[shireen]

30. you have my support

If someone is stalking you, report it to Skinner & Co.. If they can't do anything, out that user so we all know what a jerk he/she is. Public humiliation has its advantages.

Please ignore the people who give you a hard time; for every one of those jerks, there are far more people who care about you.


:hug:

[bobbolink]

125. "If someone is stalking you, report it to Skinner & Co.. "

Like they care.


"If they can't do anything, out that user so we all know what a jerk he/she is."

It's against the rules to "call out" another DUer.

People who do shit like that are protected.

We're just told if you can't take it, "grow a skin" and other lovely shit, or just leave.

:nuke:

[rockymountaindem]

32. Well, I'm on your side

Nobody should have to put up with stuff like that. I totally understand your point about how management won't do anything for anybody when they think you can't complain. There's nothing like having a captive market. I went to a university that operated on a similar principle, although that's obviously a far cry from the situation you are/were in.

The only question I have is whether or not the "Denver's Road Home" program is making anything better. We all hear a lot about it, but of course reading about it on the 'net isn't the same as coming face-to-face with the homelessness issue. Also, since I don't live in Denver, I'm out of touch with the whole thing. I hope everything gets a lot better for you soon though.

[kineneb]

35. I will never bash you

disagree occasionally, perhaps. I am far too close to poverty myself. And I know what it is like to fight The System. Hang tough, and know that many of us care. :hug:

[G_j]

36. friend,

I always knew you were for real,
and I knew your passion for waking people up to the absolute CRIME of poverty
was based in true knowledge of
the "issue"

there are vampires at the top of the power structure
it is highly questionable if there is the will in the people to really
take thier power back
but you are a voice in the wilderness
& you must be heard
regardless
you must be heard
thank you

:hug:

[Divine Discontent]

39. well you know there are SEVERAL of us who support you

do you have a paypal account? PM me if you do, or know of someone who has one, that can accept a little help for you, if you would take it. I appreciate what you gave to the campaign we were so hopeful for, John's message and causes that he fights for go on even if he isn't able to win the nomination.

My sibling is on the assistance stated in the OP message - that unbelievably low $637 which is so hard for people to live upon. I help as I can, as does my remaining parent, but my other siblings rarely help and they are well to do, it's very annoying. Anyhow, I will pray for you, and please know many people here are doing the same, or sending up positive vibes for you. This is a long fight, but you know many of us know exactly what the problems are and we know how you feel. Bless you!

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. Same here, Bobbolink. It won't be a lot, but regular, I hope.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. If anybody gives you any crap, just let me know

:hug:

There are too many "yuppie Democrats" (all "liberal" on behavioral issues, but hardly different from the Republicans on economic or foreign policy issues) on this board, the kind who call poor people "trailer trash."

Poverty can happen to anyone, even people who have worked hard and done everything they were supposed to.

Working with my church's meal program for the homeless and poor, I've seen everyone from late-stage alcoholics to well-dressed people who've obviously seen better days. There seem to be more of the latter every month.

[bobbolink]

170. Thanks, Lydia! I'm very disheartened.

I see it clearly today, and have written a few posts about it... the conflict has finally come out in the open.

It is hurtful, and scary. I wish it wasn't happening, but in retrospect, I think it's just been covered over by politeness and it was inevitable that it erupt.

I don't like conflict any more than anyone else, and have seen recently just how conflict-avoidant I can be. It's not comforting to see that in one's self. But I'm tired, I'm worn out, and I just don't have much fight left.

I know that poor people are going to be set against each other in this, and it tears at me. I wish I was smart enough to know how to turn that around, but I don't.

Suppose I could swim to Hawai'i?

:hug;

[blondie58]

52. ((Bobbolink)))

I am sorry that ou've ever had that experience- and by DUers at that. Some people just like to pick a fight- a concept that me- being a peace loving Libran will never ever understand. You (and Underground Panther) are two writers that I always read and admired.

[knitter4democracy]

66. More people love and support you here than don't.

The ones who don't are jerks anyway.

And I didn't stalk you. It was an accident to run into someone who knew you. I was just trying to help, and it all blew up in our faces. I still don't know how. I've apologizes for all of this, but I would like to apologize again. :hug:

[bobbolink]

126. That wasn't a reference to you, knitter!

What I'm referring to was a scary incidence that happened before I met you... actually, before I was homeless, while still living in that snake pit.

More in a pm!

:hug:

[knitter4democracy]

141. Oh, I'm so sorry.

You had used that term last summer when I accidentally ran into that guy, and I got nervous that I had offended you again. Thanks. :hug:

[shireen]

29. Wow. that hurts.

If there is something we can do to support Bobolink and others in his situation, please let us know.

We need a national volunteer organization that advocates for people in that situation. Are there any?

[kristopher]

37. I know I'm probably being naive but

Is there some way that you could join with others in a similar situation where you, as part of the group, combine incomes to establish your own group home, where you would have more control?
I have no experience in this area, so if this is a foolish concept, take a moment to help me understand some of the obstacles to such a course. I can see some in the area of credit worthiness or finding landlords willing to cooperate; I'm sure you can share more than I can speculate about.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. Also the NIMBY factor

Have you ever observed the protests that spring up when some social service agency decides to build a group home in a neighborhood? I'm not talking about a halfway house for paroled felons, but a group home for harmless Down's syndrome people.

[JenniferJuniper]

46. People in my town

went ape shit when plans were made to convert a large old Victorian (on a busy street) into a temporary shelter for battered women and their children. They fought it to the bitter end. Battered women and children! They didn't like the idea of "those kids" going to school with their little darlings. It's been open now for a number of years, and aside from a few extra strollers, nothing has changed on Main Street for the good people McNastyville. But they'd still try to fight anything that was even remotely similar. It's just horrifying to listen to these people. America has become a very dark place for those not born into ideal circumstances.

[bobbolink]

120. I'm not mentally ill, nor a con, and don't need a "group home"

All of us in this situation need our OWN homes, to live in with dignity and opportunity.

You know, if some who are in this situation weren't saddled with all the stress from the authoritarian types, SOME would actually be able to get their lives together, and become productive.

It's that boot on their necks that keep them down!

[dysfunctional press]

157. people get their OWN homes by working and saving...

not thru government handouts.

my wife and i did it that way. so do a lot of others.

and people who can't afford a home entirely of their own get roomates to share the costs with.

[shance]

38. Thank you Bobbolink. Is there also a place where we can send

you any items?

Should I PM you?

xoxo

[Lugnut]

43. K&R for bobbie.

:kick:

[Greyhound]

44. K & R

:hi:
We're back
:kick:

[dysfunctional press]

45. "First and foremost, EVERYONE should be receiving enough money to be able to rent a mkt rate apt..."

i'm sorry, but that's just plain silly.

haven't people ever heard of ROOMATES? i've had them, other people have had them, and a lot of people DO have them.
or you find a small place that requires some type of commute to work, if you can't afford to live in the area where your job is.

there was a story on the local news about two women in the same town who lived across the street from each other- a single mom with two kids, and a single/divorced woman with no kids- they were both having their houses foreclosed on- and they weren't cases of buying too much house, and they weren't new mcmansions in a soulless subdivision...the single woman with no kids was saying how it was difficult to find a place to rent, even though she could afford it, because her credit record is trashed by the foreclosure. -so my first thought in this situation was- why don't these two get together and try to pool their resources to save one of the houses, and they both(all) live there until they can get back on their feet somewhat?

[El Pinko]

48. I was tempted to say the same thing but was scared of being flamed.

There are a lot of sympathetic posts here, and I'm truly sorry for all the suffering bobolink has been through, but there has to come a point when a person gets their life back on track, even after a deeply traumatic event. Bobolink has the wherewithal to sit down at a computer and type a very long and convoluted account of the unpleasant situation at his/her housing complex, but is unable to seek out any sort of gainful employment? Ever?

And if every single jobless person in America were simply GIVEN money to rent an aparment at MARKET RATES, that would drive the already sky-high cost of housing even higher for the MILLIONS (30+% of the population) who work at essentially minimum wage jobs.

I agree that people who cannot work due to debilitating disabilities should be given public housing or subsidized housing, and the government should probably do a better job of seeing to it that they are kept cleaner and safer, but there is a limit to what the government can realistically do.

There should also be lower-cost housing made available in more expensive markets so low-wage workers can afford to eat and have a foor over their heads.



I consider myself to be pretty progressive. I favor single-payer universal health care, more progressive taxation, a much higher minimum wage, low-cost state university education, slashing much of the bloated "defense" budget and any number of things to help the have-nots get a little ahead, but this notion that the government needs to take care of everyone, cradle-to-grave is unrealistic.


Best of luck to bobolink in finding a satisfactory housing situation. In all honesty, If he/she waits for the government to help him/her, he/she will be waiting for a long time. Better to be proactive and get off the streets, ASAP - that is no way to live.


PS - sorry for my use of he/she - I'm new and don't know bobolink's gender.

[knitter4democracy]

67. There are reasons why people can't work.

I won't post about Bobbolink to respect her privacy, but you do realize there are reasons why people are on the streets, right?

You tell her to get off the streets asap, but how is someone supposed to do that? If someone's on disability or cannot work (and internet skills aren't a sign--they have computers in libraries and some coffeeshops to use for free), then how are they supposed to save up the deposit and first month's rent? In some areas, that can be a thousand bucks or just about. That's a lot of money to save on $630 a month or whatever.

If you don't have money, it's damn difficult to get money. If you have money, then getting more isn't so hard. That's how the system works.

[El Pinko]

76. As far as I can tell, she put herself on the streets voluntarily.

I've lived in some pretty wretched apartment complexes - gunshots, fights, you name it, but I would still take them over being in the street.

I read the whole very long and convoluted story, and it does sound like an unpleasant place to live, but it doesn't seem like a sensible reason to kick youself to the curb.

I don't understand why bobbo makes the problems of every ohter tenant with the management her business. Why she refers to basically what amounts to an unpleasant demeanor as "abuse".

It's too late now, I would have stayed in the housing and looked for some kind of home-based data entry type job or something and saved up to move to another place.

In the hell apartments I lived in, I ALWAYS stayed until the end of the lease, despite the racket and bad management.


There is another poster in this thread with a suspicious name who dismissed this whole thread offhand, and I'm really not trying to go there.


But there are a lot of people offfering sympathy (which is great), but nobody asking any questions about the poster's judgment.

Call me crazy, but personally, I'd rather keep to myself in wretched public housing than live on the streets. At least she wasn't in the crossfire of gang wars, which is extremely common in

public housing and sec. 8 housing. Mean management I could deal with much better than bullets flying.


I know you can't save up money on public assistance - or really have any kind of decent quality of life.

And the OP didn't mention a disability, just "dysfunction", due to a child being "kidnapped". It would have been nice to have had a bit more detail to this part of the story and a bit less detail of the encounters with victim advocates and difficult managers.

[knitter4democracy]

78. There's more to the story.

In deference to her right to privacy, I won't get into here without her permission (it's her life and her story, after all), but there is more to the story. She didn't just leave because of one thing or the manager but a bunch of things. That's all I feel comfortable saying.

The point of the OP, I think, was more to explain just how damn difficult it is to be poor. How dehumanizing it all is. Focus on that and not on what's wrong with Bobbolink. :)

[El Pinko]

80. Well, I have plenty of experience with being working poor...

...never been on assistance or anything, but it is one of my fears that I would end up disabled and unable to work, so I'm really not trying to be callous here.

The point of what she went through is coming through loud and clear. But that was paired with a call for every poor person to be given market-rate housing, and I'm sorry, that isn't going to happen, even if Obama or Hillary wins.

I doubt it would happen if Edwards were to win. Maybe bobbo has a sleeping arangement such that homelessness is near tolerable - obviously I know very little, but I know if I was on the street, getting off would be priority #1, and it's really hard for me to focus on anything but that.

Being in that complex was unpleasant, but people DIE on the streets and it's hard to get my mind off that.


Anyway, I'll refrain from further comment on this one, because I clearly don't know the whole story and don't want to come off as bullying somebody who's down.

Bobbo, you have all my best wishes, but I've briefly lived out of my car myself and I know for a fact that in that situation, kind wishes aren't worth diddly. I really hope you can get yourself situated somewhere good.

Take care.

[undergroundpanther]

90. El Pinko

El Pinko Said: <Being in that complex was unpleasant, but people DIE on the streets and it's hard to get my mind off that.>

Because you are thinking about things from a position where you are NOT suffering abuse from some asshole who has power over you. You can choose to hypothetically tolerate an abuse situation because maybe you haven't been around abusers or more importantly never felt how it is to live in a place where you are bullied by the goddamn landlord. This is where Empathy can help you feel what Bobbolink felt so you could understand WHY Bobbolink ended up on the street,you will discover all "choices" are not freely made,some come out of desperation or coercion.

Until you can empathize with Bobbolink and stop projecting what YOU would do in Bobbolink's situation from the comfort of where YOU are now you won't be able to empathize with Bobbolink the human being.. You need to step out of yourself and abandon your what if *I* was ...scenarios in your head to empathize with someone else's real life story.

I was abused at home.So I would sleep in the woods rather endure more my fathers drunken abuse sometimes. Some things people deal with ARE worse than being on the street.Really.There are many ways to die,including the damage one gets from trauma from abusive people.Abuse it can drive you to suicide or the street because there is no other way to feel you can escape.At least on the street you can run away and have a chance at having some way to deal with your life and heal.In an abusive situation there is ZERO chance of healing..

Ask any abused spouse who got away from an abuser,why they face the street. Ask a homeless kid in Seattle why they left home. You will hear it over and over that people will escape to the street rather than endure the suffering imposed on them by an authoritarian,narcissistic or psychopathic personality that has power over them.

Sensitive people suffer worse when abusive people dominate their lives.Bobolink is very sensitive and caring and the abuse going on at section 8 no doubt cause bobolink much torment. I know Bobbolink has been through hell because I have been there in my own situation. I get SSI and I had section 8 too.So I have seen and felt this kind of shit for myself enough to be roused to fury at the system and the landlord fuck face and still wish to help Bobbolink. I didn't say shit here like you said, like Bobbolink CHOSE to be on the street because I know why the choice was made.I made the same choice as a kid when I slept in the woods.

[knitter4democracy]

109. Just a question: what would be wrong with everyone getting housing?

Let's be creative for a second: what if everyone who needed and wanted a home could get one? Maybe not entirely free but a sliding scale idea. If someone has a permanent addy, it opens up job possibilities and helps the entire community. If adult women don't have to worry about where to sleep, maybe they won't get involved in unhealthy situations as much just to have a place to sleep that's off the streets. If men don't have to worry about which friend's couch to crash on, maybe they can focus on health and hard work. Many of society's problems stem from homelessness, so what if we make sure people have a place to live?

I'm tired of same-old stinkin' thinkin'. It's time to get creative and help people with what they need, not what we think is best for them.

[dysfunctional press]

152. what's wrong with people having roomates in order to afford a place to live?

lots of people have done it, do it, and will do it. why do some people apparently feel that they are above having roomates, and that the government should supply individual housing for each individual?

[undergroundpanther]

154. Have you ever lived

With other people you just get thrown together with?

I have,In residential housing.
I lived with a person that was so filthy we had roaches when before her we had none,the kitchen stank,and she failed to flush her toilet for a MONTH,she would NOT do her share of the housecleaning no matter how we asked...

Another person was filthy and she stole my food so when I wanted to eat I found most of my food gone..

Another was so rude she would bust my things and lie about it.

Another one was abusive,and a Christian trying to convert me.

One had no boundaries and would do shit like walk around naked when my mom came to visit.

Some people you can't live with.Some you can.To have the state pick your roommate at random,it is not always a compatible thing.In fact it can be horrible.I live with roommate now,my friend.

And tell me this, why do fortunate ones, the selfish,rich people who live off the efforts of their ancestors(dividends) and do not work or contribute anything of value to society ,get corporate welfare and golden parachutes even if they make bad business decisions.Why do they get to live in 50 room mansions on 100+ acres of land,sleep in luxury,never be deprived,get their doctor bills twipped so they don't even pay for treatment ,and even have wait staff in separate quarters to cater to them all day? Why? Do these rich piggies think they are better than the rest of us?
They are big wealthy parasites who take too much from everyone and are not entitled to what they have taken..

[dysfunctional press]

156. yes- it's called a college dorm.

tons of people experience every year, and the extreme vast majority do just fine with it.

btw- "...and do not work or contribute anything of value to society ,get corporate welfare and golden parachutes even if they make bad business decisions..."

ummmm....how do people who don't work get put into the position of making bad business decisions and getting golden parachutes???

[undergroundpanther]

176. Here are a few.. There are many more.

Stanley O'Neal, Merril Lynch: $160 million, including more than $129 million in stock and options. O'Neal takes the fall for failing to adequately control the firm's credit and market risks, which resulted in a stunning $8 billion-plus write down in the third quarter.

Philip Purcell, Morgan Stanley: $43.9 million plus $250,000 a year for life after being forced out. He angered a group of shareholders who had already called for a break up of the firm by reorganizing management and promoting some executives who were seen as loyal to him. The dissident shareholders won out.

Richard Grasso, New York Stock Exchange: Took $140 million in deferred compensation and the disclosure of that payment sparked a furor that led to his departure. The pay also provoked an investigation and lawsuits, which are still being worked out. Grasso has vowed to fight.

Douglas Ivester, Coca-Cola: Took $120 million when he stepped down in 2000 in his mid-50s. The departure was deemed a "retirement," but Ivester had presided over a period of stagnant growth, declining earnings and bad publicity.

Robert Nardelli, Home Depot: $210 million. He fixed up the home products retailer using techniques he learned as an executive at General Electric, but by 2006, he was starting to seriously irritate shareholders. The final straw was when he told the board to skip the annual shareholder meeting and prevented shareholders from speaking for more than a few minutes. He was ousted in January 2007.

Bruce Karatz, KB Homes: Gets up to $175 million. The former chief executive of the home building company resigned in November 2006 after an internal investigation into whether he and other executives backdated stock option grants. Stephen Hilbert, Conseco: Took an estimated $72 million.

Hilbert bought GreenTree Financial in 1998, just as the subprime lending business was about to go topsy turvy. The purchase left Conseco, an insurance company, with big write downs and ultimately contributed to its 2001 bankruptcy. The company has since reemerged from reorganization.

Michael Ovitz, Disney: $140 million after less than two years on the job. A former big-time Hollywood agent, Ovitz was recruited to Disney to work under Chairman Michael Eisner, but the two couldn't play nice. The pay was disputed in a Delaware court, which decided in 2005 that the board didn't violate its fiduciary duty in awarding that much severance.

Hank McKinnell, Pfizer: $198 million, including $78 million in deferred compensation he built up in 35 years at the pharmaceutical company. Pfizer shares sank 40% on his watch, which ended last year. The company had to cut billions in costs and fire thousands of employees, and said it wouldn't see revenue growth until 2009.

Frank Newman, Bankers Trust: $55 million. A former deputy Treasury secretary, Newman was brought to Bankers Trust to restore confidence after the 1994 derivatives scandal. He made aggressive moves into technology banking and lending (buying boutique Alex. Brown & Sons in 1997). But that push plus a big position in Russian government bonds, put the bank on the brink. Newman left in 1999 after selling the company to Deutsche Bank.
http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10004703.shtml
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-community/thread.cfm/threadid:25303#245761
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/01/mozilo-severanc.html
http://www.smartmoney.com/editorspage/index.cfm?story=20070103

[dysfunctional press]

177. but the question was about people who DON'T work...

those people all work for a living. a lot of the top ceo's get a lot of pay- but they also usually work very long hours, make a lot of decisions and have a lot of responsibility.
and they generally aren't the ones who decide how much they get paid.
don't hate the players, hate the game.
and by the tone of your posts, it seems that you have plenty of hate to spare.

[undergroundpanther]

179. Actually you are wrong

Ceos can be lazy people. Bullies and con men too.

http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/11/01/wall-street-journal-makes-an-issue-of-bear-stearns-bsc-ceo-hab/
http://copyranter.blogspot.com/2006/04/today-i-am-ceo.html

Translation: I figured out how to spend every cent in my budget on things that sound relevant and awe-inspiring... and need to ask for more money next year so I can pull the same crap again only better... at least until I get recruited by the next board o' suckas..
http://thebrandbuilder.blogspot.com/2007/12/on-spotting-illusion-of-action.html
The Corporate Library which found that more than half of the CEOs studied were able to use their company’s corporate jets for personal trips.

[knitter4democracy]

161. Even nursing homes don't force roomies on everyone.

And these are people on Medicaid, so it's federal money.

Not everyone is roommate material, and not every roomie situation works out well. To take people in difficult situations and force them to live with other people in difficult situations seems to be asking for trouble. If someone is used to stealing to survive, who wants to be that person's roomie? If someone isn't used to living in the same place night after night and doesn't know how to clean up after herself, who wants to live with her?

Personally, I like the idea of buying all those foreclosed McMansions and turning them into group homes. People get their own bedrooms and then learn life skills by having to share the kitchen and bathrooms and living areas. That way, married couples can stay together, people can pick their own roommates or live alone, and families can be together. It would take a new way of dealing with housing, though, and I don't know what it would take to make that happen.

[dysfunctional press]

163. the op thinks that the government should pay for each to have their own market rate apartment...

and that is just plain crazy. if they can't afford to rent their own apartments, they need to do what everyone else in that situation generally does- they find roommates to share expenses with. and i never said that people should be forced to have any one particular roommate- that's not how it works in the real world. in the real world, people find their own roomates through social contacts, classified ads, and the like.

the mcmansion idea might be a way to go, except that the other neighbors would fight it tooth and nail to protect what's left of their property values.

my wife and i were looking to buy a two-flat in evanston a number of years ago, when some agency came in and bought it at the full asking price, in order to make it into just such a group home.

[knitter4democracy]

171. What about the success programs have had doing just that, though?

There are programs that get the homeless off the streets by paying for an apartment for a specified length of time, and they're doing well. I'd have to look it up, but I remember seeing something like 60 Minutes do a show on it and how it's actually working. I remember the report saying that it's actually cheaper to give homeless people a play to live like that than to run shelters.

You're right about the property values thing. Hmm. I wish I knew a good way to get around that.

[dysfunctional press]

172. it might work in some individual cases- but it would never fly as a total solution...

btw - i didn't see the 60 minutes piece- did they rent apartments for just one person? or were there multiple people living in them?
the op wants the government to pay for each person to have their own apartment, apparently so that they wouldn't have to suffer the unbearable hardship of living in a less-than-perfect scenario that they feel they are above.

but- if the government decided to solve homelessness by paying for each of them to have their own apartment- do you realize what the dollar cost would be? do you realize the backlash against the government and the would-be formerly homeless would be among the general public- particularly those people who work 40 hour jobs and still can't afford their own place? only to find out that their tax dollars are providing free apartments to the indigent? not pretty, to say the least.

ultimately, this is yet another social problem that has it's roots in the raygun "revolution".

[knitter4democracy]

173. Yes, ultimately, it does go back to Reagan.

You're right about that.

The program that I saw was so fascinating because they did get apartments for individuals in actual apartment buildings (not program-owned tenements or anything like that). They added it up, and they found it was far cheaper to pay for someone's apartment than to pay for a shelter. I'll have to see if I can find it. It was in a big city, and I remember wondering how it would play out in a smaller city or in rural areas.

I know the backlash would be bad, but I think getting national health care and a living wage would take care of a lot of that. It's a hope anyway.

[dysfunctional press]

174. something doesn't seem right about the math...

say there's a shelter with 60 beds- there's no way that it would be cheaper to rent 60 apartments than to run the shelter. and maybe we're talking about a different kind of shelter? or is the shelter more of a halfway house kind of thing, with a very limited number of people?

all i do know for sure- is that if the government got into the business of providing free individual apartments to homeless individuals, in the form of market-rate rent-checks like the op suggested, there would be an ENORMOUS jump in the number of "homeless".

[undergroundpanther]

93. Exactly

And regardless of all that,Bobbolink is a human being first and there were reasons important enough to drive Bobbolink to the street. There is no " trauma worthiness measuring stick" for a person to measure up to ,to get sympathy points for decisions they made here.No one size fits all scale of man's inhumanity to man to determine how much threat or abuse a person SHOULD be able to endure to permit a decision you don't understand to be worthy of empathy..
Everyone is different and everyone has memories and pasts that effect them long after it is over,people have different issues. And no one deserves or should be told to endure abuse from a toxic bully except other toxic bullies.

[knitter4democracy]

108. No "trauma worthiness measuring stick." I like that.

What one person can handle might not be what another can. It's all to the good, too, since it means we're all different and add something unique to the community. Just because I'm scared of surgeries now after going through two in seven months in 2006 doesn't mean I'm less than. It just means I'm different. Just because Bobby's in a bad place with housing doesn't mean she's less than--it just means she's in a hard place and needs help getting out of it, like everyone else in that place of swirling darkness.

[undergroundpanther]

87. You are ignorant about the EFFECTS trauma has on people

So shut up and LEARN listen,damn.

You need to start to understand what facing a system that abuses people systematically means when you experience it.You can do it either first hand (go through hell and wind up homeless and live in section 8 or(yes it's unpleasant to hear but you can handle it can't you?) Listen and EMPATHIZE when other people who have been through abuse in the system or who have witnessed it as they tell you their story. If you want respect you give it first.

Failure to do this simple empathy with Bobbolink and to only judge doubt, criticize and shoot blame twords Bobbolink as if tolerating abuse is OK.Many people choose to escape abuse that is tormenting them,and because resources for help are are so fucked up and filled with too many toxic people like you, I don't expect YOU and your ignorance to get it. So surprise me.. Your posts show me the behavior of a person with a toxic personality. If you are one,be aware I am aware,I know your kind of cold blooded ego tripping games and I will rip that mask of intellectualizing bullshit off your ignorant face and let everyone see what you are if you continue to post such abusive tripe.

And I think if you read any of my posts on bullying types you already know how I feel about narcissists,psychopaths and authoritarian shit heads right? I wish them all dead and I am not ashamed to say it either. I am under no illusions the world is just or love heals all things.I know some people are just evil.

I'm gonna draw a boundary on you EL Pinko..
So don't post more of this same old shit that makes you look like you are a toxic personality to me,and I will not let my anger loose on your pompous ass. Shut up and learn something.OR LEAVE THIS THREAD ALONE, NOW. You are not contributing anything good ,useful or nourishing to this thread.

From all appearances you are here to be an ass to bobbolink and bash the poor.Show me you are not an asshole and control your keyboard and cease your critical uninformed opinionated bleating and I will back off..Understand?
Shut up or show some empathy.

[hunter]

103. We live in a culture that systematically abuses people...

... and then blames the victims when they can't take the abuse any longer.

Our culture trains us from childhood to deny the abuse, to pretend to be strong.

Of those who can't take the abuse anymore, society claims it is because they were weak, not because they were run into the gutters by a culture of overtly violent oppression.

We are a nation founded in slavery and servitude -- and over time little has changed but the nature of the oppression and the classes of people from which servitude is demanded.

Individuals who are rejected by this society are called upon by their oppressors to blame themselves and crawl away quietly, bloody and beaten, and without creating any further disturbance.

[JosephSchmo]

147. You sound abusive

Telling him to shut and leave like that.

[undergroundpanther]

150. well

I am abusive to people who are abusive just because they think they can get away with it..I am intolerant of people saying shit that hurts people,unprovoked.

Now I have no problem with you because you haven't said any shit to hurt people.I haven't seen it.

The distinction between me drawing a boundary on an abusive person, and an abusive person being an ass is this:
Abusive people choose to be cruel and act like jerks because they want to hurt others they believe they can get away with it,and act as if they are entitled a free pass whenever they act in an abusive way to others.Sadly too many people let abusive people off the hook.. I don't.

I get pissed at people that excuse systemic horrors in this society,and when someone is hurt, they play blame the victim and insult them for being hurt by the abusers in the system.


That is verbally abusive when someone says that a homeless person CHOSE to be homeless, because they are invalidating and ignoring all the circumstances and experiences a homeless person may be dealing with that would make someone desperate to escape section 8 and live on the street instead.

And that willful blindness and petty theorizing about free will and choice from people who never seem to understand how bad abuse is or what it is like to be desperate or coerced,by an abusive person or system in such a way just makes me sick..
Someone has got to draw the boundary here.Especially if the person(s) doing the shit-talking won't control themselves and be respectful to others.

I hope you understand the difference now.

[El Pinko]

151. I never disrespected anyone.

I said I would leave this thread, but you keep leaving hostile post after bilious post directed at me anyway, so in my defense-

I asked a few questions and gave my impression of what was going on based on limited information. I tried to convey my sympathy and hope that Bobbolink can get off the street. That is not disrespect or abuse.

"That is verbally abusive when someone says that a homeless person CHOSE to be homeless, because they are invalidating and ignoring all the circumstances and experiences a homeless person may be dealing with that would make someone desperate to escape section 8 and live on the street instead."

That is not verbally abusive. Telling you something you don't like to hear is not verbally abusive.

Your tone, however, is another thing altogether.

I didn't post this to comment on bobbolink's situation, just to say in my defense that I never disrespected or abused her, nor did I condone the unpleasant behavior of people at her complex.

You've obviously got Bobbolink's back and I can at least admire that loyalty. But you've also got an extreme view of what constitutes abuse, while employing an abusive manner yourself.

And you certainly have taught me a thing or two about "toxic personalities".

There is clearly no discussing anything with you because anything you don't want to talk about is off the table, and bringing it up automatically makes a person "an abuser".


So I'll stay out of the thread for good now and it's up to you to just leave it be or keep hurling invective my way.

Either way, I won't be posting in this thread again. Have a good evening.

[undergroundpanther]

153. Ok

All I ask is don't claim to know what a choice is for someone else, in a situation and system you did not experience from the perspective of a survivor.

That is what was offensive about you saying "Bobbolink Chose to be homeless."
It isn't about what I wanted to hear ,it's about what you said and implied in that statement.
It was offensive and wrong.And I said so. You didn't like hearing that.And that is not my problem.

[bobbolink]

119. thank you, knitter4 democracy! I simply can't abide the ignorance anymore,

which is why I wasn't keen on having this posted here. My suffering isn't for the amusement of others.

I'm appalled by the rampant ignorance, and the WILFUL ignorance, and the authoritarian judgementalism of supposed "progressives".

PM on the way to you.....

Thanks again!

[undergroundpanther]

81. I can't work

Because I spend my days having flashbacks and trying not to kill myself.Here, trying to speak my piece,my truth,my experiences,my thoughts my own researching, and how all that stuff might relate to every single one of us and get it out there before the day comes when I can't take this fucking sick ass world of archons and assholes screwing over more evolved good hearted gentle souls the sparks that nourish and love anymore.

People tell me all the time I am so smart(192 IQ tested) so fucking artistic(off the scale creativity scores) and such I have so much to contribute etc. The shrinks just Looove testing me.But I don't work because I have so much fury inside at abusive asshole people in this world,I can smell their stinking black hearts a mile away,
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm


I know myself well enough that if I had to work under a bully boss I just might kill him one day (because I hate this world and want out of here,I have nothing to lose). Getting a job for me is like playing russian roulette. I don't wanna play that deadly game with what little sanity I got because I know full well the endless depths of my own anger ,I know the target of my hate and
I know what I am capable of when I encounter psychopaths,authoritarians or narcissistic(or any combination of these traits)

Toxic personalities are pieces of shit, but they are clever enough to hide what they are and still be respected by the ignorant of the psychopathy problem and the solipsism sorts of do wells who just can't fathom some people are not good at heart and are actually evil.

I don't care what position of authority these assholes claim to have or who they think they are,what others are fooled into thinking they are, or why these insufferable assholes think they are entitled to abuse me or others like me who care and do not want to hurt people unless they have to .Frankly If I get exposed to a narcissist,authoritarian or psychopath bully lording over me again, I'll want to destroy them..literally.

So knowing myself I stay out of the workplace.

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kineneb]

124. bad child, no biscuit. Suicide ripples its effects through many lives

and through generations. Best to be kind, and try to understand.

U.P. is tormented by events in his/her past. One cannot just "forget". The mind does not work that way. Just ask the vets returning from the ME; they cannot forget either.

[bobbolink]

127. Thank you for taking that on.

there are many ignorant posts I don't "see". :hi:

The willful ignorance here is just astounding. Authoritarians really suck.

Thanks.

It needs to be addressed.

Over and over, unfortunately.

~~searching for the cool "thankyou" emoticon~~

:hi:

[kineneb]

135. I have dealt with depression my entire life

it is just now, when I am almost 50, that I finally am getting the kind of therapy I should have had long ago.

The ripples of suicide do come down through the generations: at 27, my great-grandmother poisoned herself, and my grandmother, age 4, had to call for the doctor. Imagine a 4-year old pushing a chair to the wall, so she could reach the hand-cranked phone, while watching her mother die. My grandmother was a loving person who always lived through others. After my grandfather died, she slipped into geriatric depression, which lasted 10 years until she died.

I seem to have inherited the tendency towards depression through my mother. My illness was triggered by (as I only recently discovered) emotional abuse/neglect when I was a very small child. I am fighting it yet again as I watch my husband slowly die.

[undergroundpanther]

132. Thanks.

Oh,BTW isn't it uncanny how it's the same old callous ones the sarcastic self absorbed that have disregarded others pain,and want traumatized people to shut up, while the asshole tolerates verbal abuse directed at others, sexism or bashing gays and other offensive shit talk on DU that habitually that always snark from the keyboard that do this because they benefit from a culture playing pretend in denial about abusers and they so desperately want to obstruct or deny the fact abusing someone not harming the perpetrator is ALWAYS the perpetrator's freely made choice to inflict harm deliberately because they think they can get away with it???

[undergroundpanther]

145. What the fuck

Question all, Kiss my ass, you say you want me to commit suicide, No I will live just for the day you die,from pissing on the wrong person,you pathetic, verbally abusive insignificant putrid pile of pig shit. I look forward to the day when all callous people like you are forced to be held accountable for the SHIT that tumbles forth from their smug faces.Your face will meet alot of fists,and you deserve every punch you get until you CHOOSE to pay attention to the hurtful things you CHOOSE to say.. May death visit you first because your words are a blight upon the humane in humanity.

[bobbolink]

121. I admire you! You are so clear, and know yourself so well!

If EVERYONE had your self-knowledge, we wouldn't have the assholery in this society!

You are a wonder..... so absolutely clear, and determined to be who you are.

You are a rare cat, indeed!

:hug:

[undergroundpanther]

123. Thanks

Bobbolink I think you are one rare bird, And poop on anyone who dissagrees with that.

[flasoapbox]

88. Good suggestion. I got fucked over financially...

...so I had to take a roommate. The process wasn't necessarilly easy,
but it worked out. God forbid I have to rely on the government for
anything.

[KillCapitalism]

47. K&R for bobbo

I haven't been here very long, but I've seen the way bobbo is passionate about the issue of poverty here on DU. If we could all be that passionate about it, we could end it. I know I do all I can by helping adults who are illiterate learn to read at a shelter. I've spent almost an entire year living in a car before, so I know how it is. I don't know where you are located bobbo, but if you need anything or just someone to vent/talk to, feel free to message me anytime, I'll do what I can.

[Raksha]

49. I hope I'm not to late to recommend this, but kicking anyway.

[earth mom]

50. I'm sorry to read this. As John Edwards said, "We are BETTER than this!"

My heart breaks for Bobbolink and for all the others who have been disrespected in this way.

My heart breaks that Edwards has been silenced.

This country has become a viper pit of greed, cruelty and self-absorption! I don't recognize it anymore! :cry:

[fedupconservative]

51. Something's a little fishy

I'm new and maybe off base but the ops story doesn't ring true to me. Multiple landlords who are all sadistic uncaring people? Hitler like managers and indifferent govt workers?

So all these random people are teaming up trying to make life a living hell for everyone who lives in Section 8 housing. I've heard more fantastic drama in an Oliver Twist novel.

Oh, and the Op says, "EVERYONE should be receiving enough money to be able to rent a market rate apartment". Is the Op willing to work at all to help pay for the expense this will cost the rest of us? Even if it's just a couple hrs a day doing data entry(which she seems perfectly capable of)? Or maybe everyone wouldn't mind giving up $600-700 a yr of their income to help pay the enormous cost of such housing.

[KT2000]

53. You should probably

take a look at the Section 8 housing in your area. You should probably talk to the people who live in Section 8 housing.
I think it is fishy when "a belief" is used to rebut a statement, without any supporting facts.

I have personally heard stories very similar to this.
Wake up - the government looks down on people who are poor. The system has turned more punitive against the poor and they are NOT there to assist any more.
Charitable agencies are not much help either.
These are things you need to discover for yourself before passing judgement.

[El Pinko]

54. Judging by that poster's name, he made up his mind before he read the post.

I kinda feel like what bobolink and underground panther are expecting of the government to provide goes beyond what could be reasonably expected.

But I don't doubt bobolink's account of what happened and hope he or she finds housing that is liveable.

[Terran]

74. Have to agree with you...

I have every sympathy for Bobolink and his/her experiences, but having read the post, it seems like it comes down more to being around unpleasant people than the fault of the Section 8 system. I work with federal rental assistance programs, and there's not a lot HUD could have done to alleviate these situations. Now the Denver Housing Authority, on the other hand, should have been able to address tenant complaints about property managers, but if it's just someone being "mean" to tenants, there isn't much they can do. Alleged physical abuse of a tenant would be quite another matter, however.

As for the apartment itself, loud and in a downtown of a big city: well, if the Section 8 voucher came from the Denver HA, the voucher would be good for an apt. anywhere in Denver, not just downtown; the value of the voucher dictates to some extent where you end up living, and I don't know how high rents are in Denver, but in Missouri, $674/month would be considered quite high.

Section 8 vouchers don't fall in "value" except in very small amounts when HUD decides that fair market rents may have fallen in a given area; they tend to rise slightly just as often. It's the *number* of vouchers available, as was stated, which is being slowly reduced, and that is indeed the real problem here. While the Bush admin has actually increased funding to combat homelessness (especially so-called "chronic" homelessness), they have been at war with Section 8 because it costs a lot--like 2% of the entire federal budget. Overall, Section 8 is a great program that houses millions of people who might otherwise be homeless; when we get a Democrat in office, you better believe that those of us who work in housing will be telling Washington that we need to reverse this years-long war on federally assisted housing. There are a lot of simple tweaks in HUD policy that could change a lot of things for the better. Sure, it would cost more, but if we weren't spending a billion a month in Iraq we'd have that money to make sure everyone had a safe and decent home.

[undergroundpanther]

82. I wish what you wrote was true

But it isn't simply "unpleasant people" Causing these problems.
PLEASE learn from these links.
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/spath.htm
http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html
http://porkupineblog.blogspot.com/2006/09/profile-of-psychopath.html
http://eldib.wordpress.com/2008/01/26/twilight-of-the-psychopaths/

About Malignant Optimism &just world theory and how these beliefs undermine justice.
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art22358.asp
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/invuln.html


Guess what destroys malignant optimism and beliefs in a just world?
And removes ones capacity for feeling capable? Traumatization ,torture and abuse by psychopaths narcissists and authoritarian bullies.Trauma undermines the belief system that gives meaning to human. experience
http://www.menningerclinic.com/resources/coping_trauma05.htm
http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/book-sum/femicide.html

It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering.

In other words EMPATHY! And awareness about toxic people,what they cause and how to protect yourself and others from toxic people who traumatize others.
http://www.pearsonassessments.com/resources/f43cs.htm
http://www.homestudycredit.com/courses/contentPT/trkPT02lo.html
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=10790

[fedupconservative]

85. I'll try to be more open minded.

I'm here after all.

I hope some of you can be a little patient with me as well as being a little respectful of someone who has differing beliefs. I'm trying to mesh my beliefs of individuality and personal responsibility with your beliefs and I can see their will be some conflict but I no longer trust my party or my leadership and am open to ideas from the other side of the isle.

If we can work together to find some common ground, I think you'll see many more like me coming around. We're not all brainwashed freedom hating Bush lovers. We want a better America just as you do.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

89. wow. Welcome to DU!

You'll find a good mix of Lefties here, from the Conservative to the far-left. I think you may be surprised at the things we all (including you) agree on. And we love good discussion. :)

[annabanana]

91. Welcome to DU

You may find it rough going until you get your post-count up. Getcherself a thick hide and hang on. There's a lot to be learned here, and many, many insightful, intelligent and generous people. I hope you can "hang in there" for awhile.

[flasoapbox]

95. Welcome...

I came into "liberalism" fairly recently myself. I admire your desire to learn and find better
options. We need more like you.

[undergroundpanther]

99. Let explain the clash from a different perspective.

I am an anarchist. Lawlessness contrary to popular confusion is NOT anarchy. Anarchy is direct democracy.

I believe in a persons right to be free.But that freedom comes with limits.We are not infants anymore and that expectation for unconditional love from others around us vanishes when we grow up.
The world is like a vast net,you pull out strings you think weigh it down and you rip it. You ignore the toxic people who refuse to weave into this fabric and be part of it,who are trying to hack away a piece of the net for themselves at your own peril and the peril of everyone else,and this planet.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3860/is_199901/ai_n8845269

You must learn to be responsible for your freedoms and protect them not just for yourself but for every thread in the tapestry trying to get along..You are also responsible for limiting the abuses of power done by those cutting up the net holding us all in balance..You are accountable for what you do with your freedoms.Including your emotions, what you tolerate,how you use space,how you draw boundaries and how you treat others who are equal to you but different from you,but also desire to survive,to love,to be happy ,explore,learn,discover,live free of abuse,and self actualize and live out their own lives in different ways.They want what all living beings seek just like you do..
So how do you manage this on a planet with finite resources? The right wing says: by orders and classes,By authoritarian structured culture,By never ending growth and wars, by exploiting labor,by social darwinism and wars to kill off the excess populations,ect.

The Socratic idea that moral evil is a result of ignorance, the Stoic philosophers had argued that one’s “true” conscience – and hence virtue – could only be attained by freeing oneself from irrationality and passions, through the stern self-control that is typical of wise men. But later it was discovered Virtue cannot be TAUGHT it was innate.This principle of attainment of virtue was embraced,fitted with original sin and here the need for “outside” redemption, a.k.a state authority, to use force on many occasions because of the belief that external specific coercion could and should take the place of self-control in people's lives to set them free from their disobedient,"sinful" tendencies. Almost paradoxically, personal spiritual freedom idea was often based on this desire to manipulate people with specific thought coercion by the wealthy and powerful and most toxic few,The common element of this belief is that coercion – ranging from legal State-coercion to terrorism – can and should be used to realize “true” freedom for all. Which it can never do.These beliefs UNDERMINE freedom and ethics/morals in individuals that have the potential to be moral and ethical.(non-psychopaths,Non Narcissists,Non authoritarian personalities)

The left says by limiting freedom of how much an individual can hoard,and control and by working together and by using collected resources and excess to help others out .A state can eliminate suffering that way . We arrive at Rousseau’s distinction between the will of all and a supposed “’’general will’’”, which was defined as the objective “good” for society.
According to Rousseau social progress required that those who are somehow inspired by the “general will” should be entitled to enforce it through revolutionary coercion on the will of all.
Which will never make ANYONE free or moral/ethical enough to rule themselves.


There is a distinction over looked on the left and the right which requires enforcement not over the will of all but the will of those who abuse the all for themselves. In other words authoritarian abuses of power and people by certain toxic personalities that seek power to abuse it.
.
Liberal means by the dictionary a generous person.The problem with top down hierarchy is abuse of people and power creeps up over time after an old abusive system is toppled by people not able to police themselves enough to handle life without an outside authority to control them or a leader to motivate them. A left system can turn paternal pretty fast in the name of the common good .and a right system can get fascist and oligarchical,almost feudal and cult like eventually.It's because people on both sides still seek charismatic,"strong personality" leaders and want to live inside top down organizations. It limits their freedom and maturity as people emotionally and ethically.And this suits psychopaths in power just fine because it makes us dependant on them,therefore obedient.

This happens because the issue of psychopathy,narcissism and authoritarian personalities and the abuse of people and power these toxic people cause and because the motives of authority is NEVER directly addressed as a BIG PROBLEM in EITHER the left or the right. So things remain stagnant with occasional revolutions because the top down corruptible/ already corrupted power and distribution of resources structures in society are NOT even questioned if they are helping ,hurting or even necessary to humanity's well being,quality of life or survival.. Anarchists ask those questions and strive to have the kind of ethics where an outside authority to impel you to be good is not required to exist for society to thrive together. It is necessary as long as people fail to care for each others well being freedom including freedom from abuse as much as their own,and some are tolerated in controlling,coercing,dominating non-toxic people setting up hierarchies to abuse power.

If you are not super rich the left is easier to live under,the left helps labor and the poor.
If you are rich or authoritarian,narcissistic or psychopathic than conservatism enables you to disregard others pain,poverty or distress,take more from others that have less than you do without shame, and it is all justified easier in the right wing belief system..
http://www.unknownnews.org/060502a-Panther.html

Honestly I do not think right now enough people are emotionally or ethically ready for Anarchy because too many people are either a toxic personality themselves,too tolerant of psychopathy,or certain beliefs blind them to it's dangers and reality,or are uneducated of the role psychopathy narcissism and authoritarian personalities play in corrupting power structures and stunting a societies ethical search for balance of freedom and an inner locus of control that makes freedom for all possible..

More about Anarchy A.K.A DIRECT DEMOCRACY..
http://a4a.mahost.org/moral.html
http://a4a.mahost.org/author.html
http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/meltzer/sp001500.html
http://www.mathaba.net/www/anarchist/
http://www.afed.org.uk/
http://www.neravt.com/left/
http://www.spunk.org/library/intro/sp001492/blackflg.html
http://www.raisethefist.com/news.cgi?artical=anarchy

[Terran]

101. Ok...

Forgive me if I've missed something here, but:

--What do your links about sociopaths and psychopaths have to do with this? If you're asserting that the "mean" property managers were sociopaths then I think that's an extremely unwarranted, or at least non-evidenced assumption. There could be a thousand reasons for their behavior, and mental illness is only one explanation. On the other hand, if you're calling *me* a sociopath for not expressing 200% support for the story as told, all I can say is, I'm not one. Quite the opposite.

--I'm also not getting the references to "malignant optimism"--I'm not malignantly optimistic, but I know how these programs work and they do work very well for a great many people; this is factual, it's not just my belief. The fact that this poster had some bad experiences doesn't change that.

--If you thought I was taking the "side" of the "perpetrators" in this story, then are you are very wrong.

--I have a great deal of empathy; but I talk to people several times a week whose lives are in far worse shape than this person's, so forgive me if I tend to apply a personal yardstick of suffering to the situation.

[undergroundpanther]

138. Ok..

<Perhapse me if I've missed something here, but:--What do your links about sociopaths and psychopaths have to do with this?>
A LOT.
http://www.successunlimited.co.uk/maps.htm#BoL
http://chericola57.tripod.com/infinite.html
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940101-000027.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/execution/who/profile.html
If you're asserting that the "mean" property managers were sociopaths then I think that's an extremely unwarranted, or at least non-evidenced assumption.>


Really?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4124/is_200409/ai_n13486464
http://media.www.mcgilltribune.com/media/storage/paper234/news/2003/09/23/Features/How-To.Keep.Your.Landlord.On.His.Legal.Leash.And.Off.Your.Lawn-472316.shtml
http://www.columbiaspectator.com/node/27558
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_28_26/ai_n6128036

A sociopath is not always a cold blooded killer, there are socialized psychopaths,psychopaths that could be a bully boss or overbearing co worker.People that never see the inside of a jail cell,and the type of personality that traumatizes others deliberately .Psychopathy is more common than you think.And there is PLENTY of evidence when you seek it out about how many lives are scarred by psychopathy narcissism and authoritarians. Like 1 in 4 women are raped before age 18.. I'd call that evidence,of widespread abuses..When you find out how many people have suffered at the hands of toxic people's games it's a sad mess indeed.


More recent researchers also recognize the fact that psychopaths accept no personal blame. Item 16 on the “gold-standard” psychopathy measure, the Hare Psychopathy Checklist–Revised (PCL–R), assesses a failure to accept responsibility for actions. Item 16 of the PCL–R identifies “an individual who is unable or unwilling to accept personal responsibility for his own actions (both criminal and non-criminal) or for the consequences of his actions.” Instead of accepting responsibility for his/her actions, the psychopath produces “some excuse for his/her behavior, including rationalizing and placing the blame on others” (Hare, 2003).
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/11/10/sociopaths-and-psychopaths-have-you-no-shame/

<There could be a thousand reasons for their behavior,>

And every bully has a thousand excuses to avoid responsibility for their abuse of power,abuse,and verbal abuses too.


<and mental illness is only one explanation.>
Psychopaths are quite aware what they do is wrong they don't care,this makes them NOT mentally ill!!
Don't lump mentally ill people in with psychopaths,authoritarians and narcissists!!

<On the other hand, if you're calling *me* a sociopath for not expressing 200% support for the story as told, all I can say is, I'm not one. Quite the opposite.>

I was, I think,Talking to the other poster El Pinko.

<I'm also not getting the references to "malignant optimism"--I'm not malignantly optimistic, but I know how these programs work and they do work very well for a great many people; this is factual, it's not just my belief. The fact that this poster had some bad experiences doesn't change that.>


Perhaps a better word for it would be"selfish optimism"?
Let me give you a couple of links on this stuff. Check them out.

http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/invuln.html
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html

<If you thought I was taking the "side" of the "perpetrators" in this story, then are you are very wrong.>

No I never said that,I said something about the way people who use yardsticks of suffering worthiness judge people in pain when you try to see who's trauma is worth your empathy you are being discriminatory to the survivors and that hurts people.



<I have a great deal of empathy; but I talk to people several times a week whose lives are in far worse shape than this person's, so forgive me if I tend to apply a personal yardstick of suffering to the situation.>

And No, I don't forgive you for applying a yardstick of suffering, here because it is rooted in a function of selfishness on your part to do that to people who are suffering. Add that to the chronic lack of resources and support they need to get out
of painful circumstances..They are suffering as they wait for the yardstick bearing bigots that are NOT suffering ,to figure out if they are suffering bad enough to be worthy of getting help..
And that shit has GOT to STOP.We need each other.

“Perhaps our eyes need to be washed by our tears once in a while, so that we can see Life with a clearer view again.”Alex Tan.

[bobbolink]

115. You're wonderful, undergroundpanther! I don't have the energy anymore to address the ignorance!

"Just mean people"..

SHIT!!

They ALL ought to have to live with it day in and day out, THEN maybe they'd understand what is happening to people.

Not only their mental health, but their physical health, being damaged by the stress!!

Thanks so much for addressing it!

I *love* having you in my corner!

:loveya:

[undergroundpanther]

128. thanks again

I like shredding assholes in human suits because I hate them. I mean what are claws and fangs for if you can't rip them through those methane filled hot air bullshit balloons so full of themselves,who insist on walking in on threads like this one and fucking over others,making stupid comments to amuse themselves ( that self amusement shit reminds me of people who jerk off in public,)but hey people who are low in the intelligence department or have brain damage have an excuse when they do something offensive and wrong, These assholes don't have excuses they know what they say hurts others and don't care who suffers! So...let us PREY!

[bobbolink]

134. Have I told you lately that I love you?

And that I'm so very glad you're on *MY* side????

Damn, I'd really hate to get on your bad side..

:rofl:

:pals: :loveya: :pals:

[undergroundpanther]

140. It's very hard

for a good hearted sensitive person like you to ever get on my bad side.
:loveya:

[undergroundpanther]

100. So who's gonna pull out

The you are allowed to have "this much" measuring stick?
Often it is the comfortable people with no conscience and too much money,and never been poor in their lives who tell the poor how much they can have to survive on. Ironic No?
Check out the food stamp challenge.Seems poor people toast the rich on making wise use of money.And some congress members with the guts to take the challenge learned that,but I don't think they'll ever ADMIT it.
http://foodstampchallenge.typepad.com/

[glowing]

57. Yes, she is an educated disabled person... How much can she do??

She cannot go to a traditional job and work... Many are in this position. Take some time to realize that there are a ton of people, even with jobs, who are struggling to make ends meet. Its so bad Bush has authorized money back to us.. Is that how we are supposed to get our standard raises to meet the demands of the rising increase in all costs... If you cannot realize the economic situation that many are facing and also realize that this isn't the greatest nation and that other nations do much more for their citizens, then you have a long way to go.

It starts with opening your mind and taking all that garbage that has been force fed into your brain out and kicked onto the street... AND yes, people who take on these jobs seem to have some kind of strange power kick.. I didn't live in section 8 and I can tell you horror stories about my own apt complex. Thank God I finally bought a home.... If you think its the easy street, try it, and maybe then your eyes and heart will be open.

[caseycoon]

60. To begin with

undereducated bullies generally gravitate to jobs where they have 'power' however miniscule it may be. In this type of job, they have the title of Manager.. they feel entitled, and the people they are dealing with have few options. A perfect situation for them. The job doesn't pay much, but they can take their frustrations out on the residents, so they like it.
The owners don't fire them because they are cheap labor. Certainly not ALL managers are bullies, but many of them are to different extents. They do it because they can.

More educated bullies can gravitate to to greater positions of power. Like being an officer of the law. Ever hear of police brutality? Again, certainly not ALL policemen are bad apples, but they aren't all weeded out either.

And yes, I believe there should be affordable, decent housing available for everyone.

ALSO, in my opinion, bobbolink is one of our most valued, and loved, posters here. Her messages are spot on & eloquently address the issues of the poor & the homeless.

I think you have much to learn.

[knitter4democracy]

69. Before making up your mind, you might want to do some research.

Work in a soup kitchen, talk to the homeless in your area, work for a battered women's shelter. You'll start hearing similar stories over and over. People are really and truly hurting, and a cavalier attitude about their situations isn't helping.

Oh, and telling someone on disability (which is not easy to get--every application is denied the first time, the vast majority the second time, and a few slip through on the third try) to go get a job is just plain mean. Don't you think we are our brothers' and sisters' keepers? Are we supposed to kick the least of these while they're down?

[mntleo2]

71. Bobbolink Is Real

...I understand you are new to liberal thinking, so perhaps I will give some room for that but it isn't about being simplistic when it comes to homelessness and poverty.

As for the issue of supplementing a decent income: Why blame the poor? With housing and public assistance together, we use less than 4% of our national budget. Meanwhile corporations and the rich cost us literally thousands of times more with what We The People pay in either tax breaks or outright grants for doing business. We here in my state (WA) are asking for a raise in public assistance that has not been raised in over 15 years. Whole families are living off $440.00 per month (in this state that is a TANF grant for a mother and 1 child) and $330.00 for an individual. Oh and that mother is expected to go to work when her baby is less than 3 months old, still breastfeeding and not bonded to the mother or to anyone for that matter. With renting only a room in Seattle costing $4-500.00 this makes it impossible to survive without housing assistance and other resources ~ often granted by gatekeepers who are outright hostile to the poor who give them their jobs. There are people who really care, but they don't last long, because they see the problems, they often see solutions, but the solutions are never heard and the problems are myriad, which often points to our sick society and how we do things and not to the low income individual. Looks like we can't blame anyone else BUT the poor for our social problems can we? So instead, everyone just throws up their hands and allows the punitive, inadequate System to go on.

I am a TANF recipient (raising my 2 year old grandniece) and a Section 8 tenant. I worked for over 35 years in paid work and have nothing to show for it, not because I "wasted" my income but because pay was low and every penny went into my family (I have also raised 3 other kids). My minister when he is not being a minister, works for a low income housing agency and used to direct our Tenant's Union here and he can tell you some stories, if you want to hear them. We are working at this time for legislation in this state to not discriminate against Section 8 families. We have to pass a freaking LAW in order to make people to act like human beings who hate the poor and use us as their bashing point! I can tell you first hand that like many McJobs who have psycho bosses, low income housing managers, especially the ones who run privately owned housing buildings, can be quite punitive, cruel, insensitive and downright mean. Right now I have a landlord who is actually decent, but I have not been here a year and I am wondering when the honeymoon will be over, or if it is genuine because of my experiences. I hope it is the latter, but from former experiences I am not holding my breath.

Now disabled with the work I did, because there were few or no protections (labor laws and OSHA policies were ignored and/or not enforced), I am not ashamed for asking for assistance because I have put into the System for over 35 years, as have many of my low income cohorts. But even if I were young with a child I would ask why raising kids is not considered "work" worthy of support when those kids will pay not only parents' but childless people's social security, take care of us when we are old, run our country, and fight in our wars? Welfare DEformed codified into law that parenting is "doing nothing." You know why this was passed when welfare was less than 3% of the budget at that time, while supplementing the rich and corporations was thousands of times more? To demonize poor women (especially women of color) and using them as scapegoats, it covered up what was REALLY happening with our supplementing of the rich and all that we are paying them to be rich. The poor pay almost 20% of their income in taxes (the hidden ones like property taxes in their rent, gas taxes, etc) the rich pay less than 5% of their income in taxes and corporations pay less that 7% in business taxes into our revenue. So, the poor often do have issues, because a lifetime of running into the disdain, the outright hostility and the cruelty while still working your butt off only to wind up homeless is enough right there to make anyone crazy. But many of us hang on by the thread of our sanity by becoming activists.



Oh and BTW, even though I have never had a drinking or drug problem, I still always wonder why the sickness of addiction is not understood better, no matter WHAT your income level. 70% of families and individuals receiving public assistance and housing assistance have *no* drug problems, which is actually lower than the general population who have drinking, prescription drug and illegal drug issues, so drugs and alcoholism cannot be blamed on the poor, but is often used as a reason to punish them for being poor.

What is wrong with this picture? See?

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

129. Great stats! Thank you so much! I'll be using those...

:hug: for another fine Cat!

[mntleo2]

155. There Are More ...

Try the Tax Fairness website. http://wataxfairness.org/ Though it is for my state, there is a lot of information about the unfairness of taxes that applies to all poor. They do workshops raising contentiousness about what is going on with our tasxes, who pays them, and where the money goes, it will astound you. Take a look on that website with the downloadable graph where they show what goes where in revenue.

And you might consider contacting our Seattle Church Council, who runs it and ask them if they could contact your local church council and help them start a tax fairness workshop there. It was one of the most empowering workshops I took and it was free! Our government and policy makers say the poor do not pay taxes. Bullshit! Once I knew that I paid that much of my income in taxes, I was far more aggressive with my legislators and advocacy because I know now we ARE holding up our end and then some, but we get little or no respect because the folk lore says we don't.

The other info you might check out is the Welfare Law website: http://www.nclej.org/. Most advocacy for the poor have been "downsized" because of budget cuts and we poor have few places to turn to except each other and forming groups who advocate.

My group is called People On Welfare for Economic Rights (POWER) and we are just reforming but are a scrappy little group who welcomes parents, disabled and people on GAU as well as low income workers, etc. Here is the website for you, but it is still being worked on, however you are welcome to join our group online and we meet by Skype once a month as well as have an 800 number ~ we would love to hear from you. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=205450876

Also there are some data places you might check out with some links and stats: http://www.datacenter.org/research/women.htm

Our safety net tells the whole world what kind of people we are, yet most Americans pretend they do not know how many poor live at or below third world conditions ~ while stepping over the homeless person shivering at the bus stop. My Ethiopian friend Margaret might enlighten them, oh I love that woman! She says poverty in America is worse than in her country because in Ethiopia, you can go out into the woods and learn from the indigenous people how to survive, but here, there are no woods (at least ones we would not get arrested for trying to camp or live in) and we have destroyed our indigenous population so they are as dependent on things like electricity as anyone and thus cannot survive with out it. Margaret told me that having to live America MAKES people far poorer because we cannot build a fire to cook, we cannot pitch a tent to sleep in, we cannot even go into our own woods to survive and we have to pay for everything we need, so it forces us to depend on the rich instead of sustaining ourselves from our Mother Earth. Margaret is a convert from Islam and is a deeply religious Catholic now, but her Muslim and African roots make her shine with the love of God like the sun!

How we take care of the least of us is what kind of society we truly are.

My 2 cents

Love,

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

164. This is so terrific, Cat! Thank you so very much for sharing these resources!

Oh, how I wish the people of DU would make use of what you have so graciously shared here! Yet, we know from experience, it willl.... well, it will just drop. It's ever so much more fun to post endless "polls", and requests to "DU this online poll", etc, than to actually DO SOMETHING USEFUL.

I would love to be able to take this to the local ecumenical group, but, being homeless, I have no cred and would be shrugged off.

Yes, I'm down.

[mntleo2]

165. I Know Darling ...

...oh how I know that the issue of poverty is not "sexy" and it is not about somebody's mansion or their $400 haircut so, we have to fight to be heard. But do not give up! Check your PMs.


Love
Cat

[bobbolink]

167. I wish that I could have your friend do a speaking tour, especially in this elitist hamlet I'm in!

I find myself thinking over and over about your friend from Ethiopia...she needs to be heard --widely!

As I heard someone say, it's like people in this society have had moral lobotomies! Someone like her needs to speak and get heard, and put up a mirror to these people!

What is so sad to me, and tearing me apart, is that the signs of open warfare are now so clear. "Progressives" refused to hear, refused to take it seriously as deserving more than pat on the head and a "yes dear", so the rumbling is becoming louder and louder, and there is now conflict among the very people who have so much in common, because they simply CANNOT take it seriously.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I woke up about 3 or 4 in the morning last week (yes, in my cold car in the snow) and started crying because I realized that once again, I had let something important slide by, and didn't confront it, and realized how tired I am of conflict, how I just want to find peace, how I'm getting desperate to find a quiet place.

Yet, I can't just ignore prejudice and hypocrisy, the same as "progressives" can't ignore the threat to our constitution, and the DINOs who are allowing it to happen.

I just want a quiet, warm, safe place to be for a while!!

I'm grieving that the conflict will go to this next level.

"Can't we all just get along?"

I really want to hear your friend from Ethiopia.... has anyone recorded what she has to say???

:hug:

[mntleo2]

169. I Forgot How To PM someone ...

I checked all over the FAQs and also see nowhere in my inbox or anywhere to "compose" so I could not do that. Sorry Bobbolink but here was what I wanted to say:

Oh and another statistic: Did you know that New Hampshire, the richest state gives less per capita to charity than Alabama, one of the poorest states? IMO this is because people who have "been there done that" know what needs to be done that the government is not doing for all we do in return, while the rich only think of themselves and how they can somehow profit for themselves, to hell with their neighbors.

The reason I speak of the workshop thing is not only about setting this up, it is about finding "connections" and the church community often has them over others. I just know from being an activist that sometimes it has helped me gain inroads to a "gatekeeper" who is impressed with my "chutzpah." They say things like, "Oh I have a friend who works down at the Section 8 office she/he does advocacy ~ would you like me to give them a call?" or "you know, we need a person like you setting this up, would you like to stay in the empty apartment this church I know of has for their janitor until they find someone permanent (like maybe you if you wanted the job and they like you enough) while you help us create this? Etc., etc.

So I would contact the church council in your area and make yourself a spokesperson for your brothers and sisters in need who should be empowered. I would put out the word at your local shelter with the Suits there who work with those people and with your legislators that you would like to hear some news about what the poor does for your community. I would ask them if they would help you arrange a meeting with some of those folks. I would not be surprised if when you met with them that they already know about what Seattle is doing to show the community how much we poor are paying in taxes, which is far more than the average person and certainly far more than any rich person (and we have 2 of the richest men in the world living here, Bill Gates and Paul Allen, both who get lots of freebies on our dime).

Hang in there Dear Bobbolink. I know it is depressing, I have also been homeless with three kids and a broken down car and no hope, so I know of what you speak. All this while working full time and trying to figure out where the next meal is coming from for three hungry mouths (and mine as well who needed the strength to pull us all through). I know that having a whole lot o' hope at those times is not always in the equation, and I am not trying to somehow "make it go away" because I know it ain't that easy. But I AM telling you from someone who has been there that you are not alone, and you have friends and we do have some idea as to what you are going through. We can share our own stories with you so you don't feel so alone, we might be able to share something about how we got out of it and see if some of it will help you because we have gone through it too ~ and we both know we will probably go through more scary and extremely insecure times again because there are few safety nets left for we poor and we are always "robbing Peter to pay Paul."

Love
Cat In Seattle

[OneGrassRoot]

139. Excellent post. Thank you! n/t

[dysfunctional press]

159. what happened to the 3 other kids you raised...?

is there a reason why they can't help out your situation?

[mntleo2]

175. They are homeless now too

When they turn 18, they are required to leave and they can no longer live with me. they work part time jobs, but it is not enough to pay for living quarters. They do not have enough to help me out and even if they could, it would be Welfare Fraud and Section 8 would kick me off their program.

Cat

[undergroundpanther]

77. No fish

You don't understand the type of personality that is a slum lord dear,
Learn about socialized psychopaths.Learn why some people with certain personality types gravitate to positions of authority (landlord,shrink,staff,cop,politician)just so they can abuse people and get away with it.
You haven't been on section 8, mentally ill or homeless yourself have you? If you haven't faced down a callous caseworker that treats you like garbage for existing,yet smiles and acts so nice to her fellow workers and all the ones she respects you haven't a clue how it is INSIDE this mess being hurt by it.There are a lot of manipulating abusive assholes in the world and they seek jobs in places where they can shit on people and parasite on purpose and not be called on it.
This is why I post so much on psychopathy I want to rip away the mask of this personality type so as people get it they may give them no power or place to abuse people anymore. I have been traumatized by "the system" and my anger at abusive personalities has no end.I want them all dead,frankly.

http://www.softpanorama.org/Social/Toxic_managers/bullies.shtml
http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/psychopathy.html
http://www.hare.org/links/saturday.html
http://www.thefieldfoundation.org/

[Gormy Cuss]

96. I can't vouch for her story, but I know of Section 8 landlords who are that bad.

Most Section 8 landlords are no different than any other landlords : pay the rent, don't abuse the space, and everything's fine. There are Section 8 landlords just like the one bobbolink described. They rent to the disabled and seniors in part because it's a population that is more likely to be so grateful for a roof over their heads that they'll put up with the little Napoleon behavior of the management. The Section 8 program is problematic in many cities because the eligible population greatly exceeds the available number of units. In other words, the chance of renting any Section 8-qualified unit is pretty low, and once rented many tenants will do everything in their power to stay in place, even if it means putting up with bad or indifferent management. Add to that a paucity of public housing or community development staff tasked with oversight, and you've got a situation ripe for abuse.

[LSK]

97. my 87 year old Grandmother makes less than $700/month on social security

Should she work too? She is lucky to own her house and have supportive children. But others are not.

Where do you draw the line?

[Catchawave]

112. ...so does my mentally challenged adult son, he receives SSI and is

still a military dependent, so medical is free. He's lucky he has such a supportive family, and my son and daughter will take him if we should predeceased him.

The group homes for mentally disabled adults are horrendous in this country, but have been an advocate to help make it better for those not as lucky as my son.

[bobbolink]

130. .

:applause:

The ignorance and heartlessness is amazing, is it not?

:pals:

[dysfunctional press]

158. if your grandmother can't afford her own place- your parents or you should provide a place for her..

that is how past generations all throughout history have done it.
family takes care of family.

[bobbolink]

116. Walk in the shoes before you judge, little one.

The ignorance overwhelms...

:nuke:

[blondeatlast]

118. Bobbolink is a longtime and respected poster here. You claim to be a fed-up conservative pissing

all over a family member's post. she posts from public libraries where she can get internet access.

Try to cut a hurting person some slack. Boobolink's family. You appear to have crashed the party.

[Pooka Fey]

55. K&R - very important post.

[RebelOne]

59. I know a person who lived in Section 8 housing here in Georgia.

The apartment was nice, but the management was like the Gestapo. After about 5 years, she couldn't stand it any more and moved in with her mother in Texas. She is unable to work because she is legally blind and has Marphins (sp?) Syndrome.

[waiting for hope]

61. Rec for Bobbolink!

Thank you undergroundpanther for posting it here.

[caseycoon]

62. K&R Very eloquent Bobbolink! We love you! n/t

[Kajsa]

68. Thanks so much for posting this

and spreading the word, Panther!

I replied in her thread.

:hug:

Kick for Bobbolink.

:kick:

[kimmylavin]

70. K&R n/t

[donsu]

72. kicking for justice

nt

[I Have A Dream]

83. K&R!

:kick:

[Desertrose]

84. Thank you, Bobbolink, for having the courage to post this

Thank you for sharing your story....it is one I think many need to hear.This has to be brought to as many peoples attention as possible. I have a feeling there will be many more in the time to come.

I am so sorry you have had to go through so much. There is no excuse for anyone in this country to be homeless. No excuse at all.We need to learn what we can do to help & take action. We need to get help where its needed. Thanks again for what you are doing. Your voice is very important.Bless you.

:hug:
DR

[jus_the_facts]

92. then imagine KATRINA hits...you're treated like cattle as you're bussed to another city/state ....

....where you're thrown into another slum or little toxic camper trailer park slums....so always remember...as bad as it is...it could be SO much worse and it still is for tens..if not hundreds of thousands of Katrina victims....sigh....I'm so sorry. :cry:

:evilfrown:

[LSK]

98. here is a link to John Edwards Poverty Center

http://www.law.unc.edu/centers/poverty/default.aspx

http://www.law.unc.edu/centers/poverty/about.aspx - contact info

http://www.law.unc.edu/centers/poverty/resources/default.aspx - poverty resources

[ChiciB1]

104. THANKS For Posting This... I Just Tried Earlier To Become A Member Of

"The Edwardians" but had a few technical questions first. I WILL be joining ans I WILL help in ANY way I can!! I had stated this right after Edwards "Suspended" because I SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY DOUBT that the other TWO candidates AND actually going to do ANYTHING of ANY substance about this issue!!

It was JOHN EDWARDS who went out RIGHT AFTER the 2004 Election and worked on POVERTY ISSUES!! Many HERE slammed him saying he was just doing this because he wanted to run for POTUS in 2008!

WHAT SO MANY HERE don't know or maybe DON'T even care about is that THIS is what he wanted to do!! To help "we the people," but The D.C. Elites and THE POWERS that be were DEAD SET against THAT!

I have a friend who called me right after Christmas and told me she could not longer pay her rent and got evicted... she now lives in her car! She's 51 and had a small stroke... not big enough to qualify for Disability without hiring a lawyer! How is she supposed to hired a lawyer when she can't pay her rent?? I have given her a lot of money to help her out in the past, but now I can give no more! We took it out of our IRA and since it was tax-deferred we had to pay taxes on it too!

Anyway, please check out the link... many of us who are going to get involved in this know THIS IS the only way to get our voice heard!! IF it gets HEARD at all! But to me it's worth a try! I'm SICK of The Rock Star and The Queen Bee! This is AMERICA, WAKE UP!!!

[jzodda]

107. Here is my experience working in Housing Court in New York City

I worked for a fairly large Landlord/Tenant lawfirm in the Bronx for most of 2006. I can flat out tell you that it was the worst job I have ever taken.

The Court system, Section 8 program, HUD, The NYC Housing Authority=all broken, totally fucked up.

It was my job to represent these Bronx landlords and I can say flat out that over 50% were the true definition of slum-lords. Its why I had to quit. They didn't care about the people who lived in their buildings and they tried to stay invisible hiding behind their management companies who didn't care either. They treated these people like cattle and only fixed things when threatened by jail, huge files, rent abatements or the cutoff of section 8 funds. I would always thank the FEW good landlords who actually did care and the few good management companies but the system itself is so messed up that it was frustrating for them as well.

I would have tenants come to court to show me pictures and it was disgusting. From the mold on the walls to the lack of heat or water, or leaking ceilings, Rats all over, Roaches-you name it and I saw it in my time at housing court there.

The section 8 cases were always the most distressing. Here's the terrible truth. You know what happens when a section 8 apartment fails inspection? They cut off the funds to the landlord and then the landlord has to ask section 8's permission to sue for rent money. Yes its a bizarre system. So the tenant comes to court, a rep for section 8 shows up and you can then see a paper with all the violations listed. Its disgusting. Also the Gov is VASTLY overpaying these scum landlords to begin with. Apartments worth $6-700 a month and in terrible shape getting $1200-1400 checks from our government? The system needs a total overhaul.

And the violations are always nasty with these section 8 buildings. Management companies always hated their section 8 tenants for some reason even though their scum clients were getting rich off of them.

Fact is even in a progressive redoubt such as the Bronx, they treat the poor who are housed with help like non-humans. It was terrible-Like the time a landlord wanted me to try and evict a tenant who was a 75 year old woman in a wheelchair who was behind on her rent. He wanted her out because she had been there for 40 years and could get a huge increase with a new tenant. I won't say anymore because I don't want to risk my license to practice law but I made sure she didn't get evicted. If it meant losing my job at the time I was way past that. I went home that day and cried for hours.

First thing that needs to be done is to stop treating these people (the poor tenants) like lepers. Sure I ran into the scamming ones as well but the system is setup to not make distinctions between the good and bad-they lump em all together and it shames me to the core. Now this is in New York City- Not some right wing place either.

The above story didn't shock me one bit as I dealt with managers like the little Hitler all the time. They hated the tenants and I think its one reason the management companies give them the job. They don't want people who will be willing to listen to their concerns.

[midnight]

113. Isn't that just like Rezko and his co. that did this same

stuff to the poor in Chicago. The call to give the poor equal access to decent housing, trainning, and health treatment saw it's only advocate drop out of the race recently.

[bobbolink]

131. Thank you so much for posting your experience!

This has been very enlightening, and I'm grateful to you!

Do you have any suggestions for combating the abuse?

Do you think a class action suit would help?

I hope you are able to reply to this... !

:pals:

[Joanne98]

111. Shit like this makes me want to become a communist!

I'm so sick of the cold hearts in this country!

[bobbolink]

133. Ah, what the hell! Go ahead and do it anyway!

:hi:

:pals:

I really enjoyed your words!

[citizen snips]

142. Communism never really existed

but maybe one it will

[dysfunctional press]

117. so- bobbolink is homeless because bobbolink chose to become homeless-

and your point exactly, is what...?

[undergroundpanther]

143. Question all..

Let me Question YOU.

Do you know what coercion is?
Do you know what trauma is?
Do you know what harassment is?
Do you know what abuse is?
Do you know the effects these sorts of situations have on people?
Yes or no?

A "choice" is not the same thing as attempting to escape an intolerable abusive situation. Desperate to escape abuse is not a "freely made choice". Making a choice is not the same thing as acting in reaction to being in a state of stress,abuse and desperation for a need to escape.
If you believe making a desperate escape from abuse and stress is making a"freely made" choice you are astoundingly stupid and callous and not worth anyone's time at all..

[bobbolink]

149. Excellent reply! "Choice" is such a muddleclass concept. Iraqis had CHOICE

of whether their country would be bombed, right?

How hard is it for people to THINK?

But, in this case, it also requires HEART, which is obviously sadly lacking....

Thanks again for having my back!

:loveya:

[dysfunctional press]

160. and we've only heard one side of the story...

from one person's questionable(to say the least) perspective.

and most likely, there's plenty of blame to be handed out on BOTH sides-

but ultimately- one person CHOSE to be homeless. more power to her. i hope she's happy with the decision that she made, and that it works out all the best for her.

[knitter4democracy]

144. *sigh* If that's all you got out of the post, why bother?

Your point of posting here is, what. . .?

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

136. What I get from this is safe affordable housing is minimal and some landlords are assholes.

"First and foremost, EVERYONE should be receiving enough money to be able to rent a market rate apartment!" I agree with very much. I don't understand the rest of this since it seems to be that some landlords are assholes, a statement which applies to non-public housing landlords also.

I have been homeless, I have lived in public housing so know about the petty power crap that can go on with landlords and within the system doing the funding. And I agree that safe affordable housing is a huge problem, as is public housing issues.

[AZBlue]

148. It's past the time to recommend, but I can kick!

[slackmaster]

162. I applaud Bobolink for a well-written and frank description of her plight

I read it several times and keep focusing back on the first sentence.

The root cause is where society in general should be extending a helping hand. Address that dysfunctionality, and everything else becomes moot.

[bobbolink]

168. thank you for your kind words! I've not been here to reply to so many of the posters,

so I hope everyone who has been supportive and kind will see this..

THANK YOU!!

:hug: :pals: :grouphug:

[Blue_Tires]

178. speechless after reading about that ordeal....

[bobbolink]

181. Thank you, Blue_Tires! There are other DUers in poverty who have tales to tell...

some that will leave you even more speechless...

........but they see some of the attacks on me, and aren't feeling safe enough to risk their personal stories.

Your own support helps them to feel like they could take the risk... so, I thank you!

:pals:

[Blue_Tires]

180. ttt