The White House's Perverse Argument - "the ends justify the means"

[Solly Mack]

Waterboarding is undeniably cruel. It is undeniably an assault on human dignity. The Eighth Amendment to the Constitution -- the one banning cruel and unusual punishment -- doesn't come with an asterisk indicating: Except when you think it's really, really important.

It's true that on TV, the ticking time bomb scenarios are crystal clear, being tough means using torture, and torture always works. But none of those things are remotely true in the real world. Which is why we have rules that we're supposed to follow, even in emergencies.

And even on the twisted terms the White House is advocating, the evidence suggests that the ends in this case did not justify the means. The White House asks us to believe that in this case it was worth it. But despite all the generalized assertions that countless lives have been saved by the CIA's interrogation program, Bush and his aides -- as I wrote in my Dec. 11 column-- have yet to offer a concrete case where intelligence produced by torture saved a single life. To the contrary, as I wrote in October, Bush has repeatedly cited examples of thwarted attacks that turned out to be wildly exaggerated.

Finally, the White House argues that waterboarding is legal because the Justice Department said so. But waterboarding is flatly, objectively illegal -- according to both U.S. and international law. Try to find one independent expert to tell you otherwise. And, despite their heated assertions, no one in the White House or at the Justice Department has yet to provide a single vaguely reasonable argument to support their position. All those legal briefs are conveniently considered top secret.

[WinkyDink]

1. An AG cannot declare an act to be legal on his say-so; that's why we have a Supreme Court.

[Solly Mack]

2. His boss doesn't understand the limits of his office either

[elehhhhna]

13. Amen. Thank Jah they're totally apolitical...

lol

[C_U_L8R]

3. they may claim to be christians....

but it is glaringly apparent that these assholes skipped sunday school.

What the fuck is wrong with them ? Jesus don't waterboard !!

These republican conservative born-again whatevers are truly bad people.

[Solly Mack]

6. they truly are bad people

[spanone]

4. that could just as well been the 9/11 terrorists rationalization

fuck them and their torture

[Solly Mack]

5. but...but...they torture for the good

they only break the law to protect freedom

Can't ya just hear them saying that?

[Disturbed]

7. Anyone that claims that "Enhanced Interrogation" is not Torture

is a Goddamned Liar!

THE CIA'S SIX 'ENHANCED' TECHNIQUES

CIA interrogators say they are allowed to use six "enhanced interrogation techniques", each progressively tougher, on top al-Qa'ida detainees. Their superiors have to give separate approval for every prisoner and every method, all claimed to be legal.

* THE ATTENTION GRAB: The interrogator forcefully grabs the shirt front of the prisoner and shakes him. Israel, the only democracy to have openly debated coercion of prisoners, declared this legal in 1987, but the Supreme Court ruled it out in 1999.

* THE ATTENTION SLAP: Interrogators may deliver "an open-handed slap", which is "aimed at causing pain and triggering fear".

* THE BELLY SLAP: A hard open-handed slap to the stomach. The aim is to cause pain, but not internal injury. Doctors advised against using a punch, which could cause lasting internal damage.

* STANDING FOR HOURS: This technique is described as among the most effective. Prisoners are forced to stand, handcuffed and with their feet shackled to a ring bolt in the floor for more than 40 hours. Exhaustion and sleep deprivation are claimed to be effective in yielding confessions.

* COLD TREATMENT: The prisoner is left to stand naked in a cell kept at around 10C, and constantly doused with cold water. Misapplication of this technique is blamed for the death of a detainee in Kabul.

* WATERBOARDING: The prisoner is bound to a board, head slightly below the feet. Plastic is wrapped over his face and water is poured over him, or his head is lowered into a bath. The gag reflex is automatic; few can endure more than a matter of seconds.

* These are the methods that have been admitted. Are there other methods that have not been admitted to?

[Solly Mack]

8. I agree

[malaise]

11. Torture, torture, torture

Don't let them get away with euphemisms like Enhanced Interrogation.

Bushco decides what is legal and what is not. Is it fascism yet?

[L. Coyote]

9. Searching Nuremberg justification, this came up. = modern martyrology

modern martyrology - http://barista.media2.org/?p=2517

Flight Lieutenant Malcolm Kendall-Smith, by trade and vocation both a Royal Air Force doctor and a moral philosopher, has just been turned into a martyr. Fittingly, it occurred on Maundy Thursday.

It is a minor martyrdom to be sure. Kendall-Smith will be drummed out of the Royal Air Force, his savings will be removed to pay prosecution costs, and he will spend eight months in a civilian prison, where he will surely not be brutalised. He keeps his license to practice medicine. He has a lot of support.

...........

In the old story, the crucifixion occurred for the same reason. Christ called himself the King of the Jews, according to the sign on the cross. He said there was an authority higher than the temporal law of the State. On some fundamental level, we are not owned.

But today we don’t have the citizens of Jerusalem .... we have four officers of the RAF acting as jury. ......

An obscure but decent man stepped into the arena, and gave the lawyers a chance to argue the fundamental issues we are so desperate to ventilate. To arm ourselves in the Weapons of History, the “Breastplate of Righteousness”, “loins girt about with truth”, and finally bring the dragon to battle.

... Like the crucifixion for which we are supposed to remain in Good Friday glumness today, the story is pitched in a superbly dramatic form. One man defies the State, is refused leave to deploy his argument, cannot present his witnesses, and stands on his conscience. .....

[L. Coyote]

10. Mukasey: "Befehl ist Befehl" = "only following orders"

[Ichingcarpenter]

12. Nuremberg trials and Nulla poena sine lege

The defendants claim protection under the principle nullum crimen sine lege, though they withheld from others the benefit of that rule during the Hitler regime. Obviously the principle in question constitutes no limitation upon the power or right of the Tribunal to punish acts which can properly be held to have been violations of international law when committed. By way of illustration, we observe that C.C. Law 10, Article II, 1 (b), “War Crimes”, has by reference incorporated the rules by which war crimes are to be identified. In all such cases it remains only for the Tribunal, after the manner of the common law, to determine the content of those rules under the impact of changing conditions.

Whatever view may be held as to the nature and source of our authority under C.C. Law 10 and under common international law, the ex post facto rule, properly understood, constitutes no legal nor moral barrier to prosecution in this case.

Under written constitutions the ex post facto rule condemns statutes which define as criminal, acts committed before the law was passed, but the ex post facto rule cannot apply in the international field as it does under constitutional mandate in the domestic field. Even in the domestic field the prohibition of the rule does not apply to the decisions of common law courts, though the question at issue be novel. International law is not the product of statute for the simple reason that there is as yet no world authority empowered to enact statutes of universal application. International law is the product of multipartite treaties, conventions, judicial decisions and customs which have received international acceptance or acquiescence. It would be sheer absurdity to suggest that the ex post facto rule, as known to constitutional states, could be applied to a treaty, a custom, or a common law decision of an international tribunal, or to the international acquiescence which follows the event. To have attempted to apply the ex post facto principle to judicial decisions of common international law would have been to strangle that law at birth . . . .



The phrase Nulla poena sine lege (Latin: "no penalty without a law") refers to the legal principle that one cannot be punished for doing something that is not prohibited by law. This principle is accepted as just and upheld by the penal codes of constitutional states, including virtually all modern democracies. It is related to the principle called "Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine praevia lege poenali", which means penal law cannot be enacted retroactively.
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/Alstoetter.htm

I think this regime will claim the same.

[Disturbed]

14. The Geneva Convention prohibits "Enhanced Interrogation".

Since the US has signed on to the Geneva Accords this is also a part of the
US Constitution. It follows that Busholini & his Regime have violated the
Geneva Convention Agreements, thus violated the US Constitution.
The Congress is obligated to Impeach under the statues of the US Constitution.
Failure to do so renders the Congress in violation of their sworn Oath.

[Ichingcarpenter]

16. No argument here

I'm just saying that the reasons for the Ashcroft affair and other written briefs
by Bush's cabal was the reasonings the Nazi used tried to defend themselves against War Crimes.

However, I don't think a national court would or could ever touch these assholes
because they are also complacent as were the Nazi legal system.

It would have to be in an International court.

[L. Coyote]

15. Torture Groundhog Day "Brace yourself. Groundhog day is likely to last until next winter."

Torture Groundhog Day
Scott Horton - February 7, 2008 - http://harpers.org/archive/2008/02/hbc-90002330


For those of you who missed the week’s big news—of course it wasn’t Super Tuesday—it was the day before, when Punxsutawney Phil the groundhog appeared just before dawn to announce that we face another six weeks of winter. But the Bush Administration is nothing but a series of Groundhog Days, just the sort to which Bill Murray finds himself condemned in the movie of that name. And the cycle that the Bush White House serves up is torture, and particularly waterboarding, 24/7. Let’s just look at the ways it’s figured in the press in the last few days.

Mukasey Again
Attorney General Mukasey appears on the House side today, where he faces a list of preannounced questions .... As I write this he is saying that he will not look into waterboarding, a statement which reflects his position that waterboarding is lawful.

Confirm the Torture Memo Writer
The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel has since the fall of 2001 played a key role in crafting the Bush program using highly coercive techniques.... the Senate Judiciary Committee does not believe he’s qualified to hold office as an Assistant Attorney General. Worse still, they deny that he is the acting Assistant Attorney General .....

Yes, We Do Torture
Ever since the first photographs of Abu Ghraib surfaced, George W. Bush has answered all queries about torture with “We do not torture.”..... the Bush Administration’s obsession with impunity for criminal conduct.

The Once and Future Waterboarding
Attorney General Mukasey announced that policy had changed and that waterboarding was no longer used. .... White House on Wednesday defended the use of the interrogation technique known as waterboarding, saying it is legal....

Is the Torture Discussion Too Narrow?
Questioning and discussion continues to focus on waterboarding. .... I’d focus on four techniques which are plainly torture and are being used by the CIA today:

• Hypothermia

• Long-time standing

• Sleep deprivation in excess of 2 days

• Psychotropic drugs

In addition to these techniques, there are the almost ubiquitous Kubark techniques, which used a combination of sensory deprivation followed by sensory overload and which can effectively turn their subject into a vegetable. The application of the first four certainly constitute criminal acts under U.S. law. The Kubark process probably does as well. And on these points, a debate has hardly even been engaged.

Brace yourself. Groundhog day is likely to last until next winter.

[Disturbed]

17. The US Corp Media want to keep things simple for us simple

people. Water Boarding is the only method of Torture that they want to
present. The other methods are cruel, as well. They are also violations of
the Geneva Accords & the US Constitution.

[Senator]

18. "...deeply perverse and goes against core American values."

Just having this discussion inside the beltway is hopefully a step back toward national sanity. Good on Froomkin.

On the other hand, Hapless Harry Reid is also quoted explaining why Jim Webb had to bang the Senate gavel alone over the Holidays -- to stop a recess appointment of:

"(The one willing) to give the president the answer he wants regardless of the law, regardless of its impact on our nation and regardless of what it does to our standing in the world."

Gee Senator Reid, sounds just like you on the question of impeachment over any of this.

---

[NMMNG]

19. "Do unto others" is obviously not a lesson they learned.

Sadly.

[Orsino]

20. When you mix equal parts incompetence, laziness and vindictiveness in the same Chief Executive...

...torture is inevitable. Desperate to appear as though they are getting something done, the * Administration took the easy, seductive route of torture long ago, proving that there is nothing they won't do if they think they can get away with it.

Unfortunately, our Democratic leadership swore oaths years ago to let them get away with whatever they want. They became complicit, and now they have to cover for the White House even more fervently, to cover up their own complicity.

[L. Coyote]

21. This mess is akin to non-swimmers flailing wildly on the surface

because they know they are going down in short order.

[Wizard777]

22. Hitler was actually going to create that perfect world full of perfect people.

How do you argue with that? But we did. Do the ends really justify the means? America has a long history of saying, no it does not. Our Bill of Rights most definitely says, it does not.