Hire An Illegal Immigrant In Arizona And You Could Lose Your Business

[Rage for Order]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080208/ap_on_re_us/employer_sanctions;_ylt=AqHj6qTKldh9egh0aU7s6g2s0NUE

PHOENIX - A federal judge on Thursday upheld an Arizona law that prohibits businesses from knowingly hiring illegal immigrants and yanks the business licenses of those that do. U.S. District Judge Neil Wake dismissed a lawsuit filed by business groups that argued that federal immigration law severely restricts Arizona's ability to punish people who knowingly employ illegal immigrants.

Businesses that knowingly hire illegal immigrants could face a business license suspension lasting up to 10 days under the new law. Second-time violators would have their business licenses permanently revoked. The law also requires businesses to use an otherwise voluntary federal database to verify the employment eligibility of new workers.

The law is intended to weaken the economic incentive for immigrants to sneak across the border and lessen Arizona's role as the busiest illegal gateway into the country. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that illegal immigrants account for one in 10 workers in the Arizona economy.

Maricopa County Attorney Andrew Thomas said the law is "a good-faith effort to deal with the immigration crisis by focusing on those relatively few employers who intentionally or knowingly hire illegal immigrants."

more at the link...

When the people of DU discussed last summer's immigration reform proposal, a common refrain was that gov't should go after the employers, not the illegals. It seems that is now the case in Arizona.

[nightrider767]

1. Sometimes laws are hard...

Too bad they didn't do the immigration reform when they had the chance.

On my end, I would have granted legal status to any family that was in this country and intended to stay.

[Xenotime]

66. Exactly. Undocumented americans are work much harder than the average pug..

Shouldn't the have right to liberty too?

[williesgirl]

2. Glad to see they're going after employers. This will help slow the flow.

[maui9002]

82. It will also stop

deserving immigrant children from attending school; it will also hurt business (which is already hurting); it will also literally destroy a good number of small businesses (the gentlemen who does my lawn work, a Latino who is a third generation American citizen, is concerned he will lose his business because many of his employees (who were obviously illegal) have left (most likely to another state) and (no surprise here) there is no line of people waiting to mow lawns for a living. Arizonans (and I'm one f them) will rue the day they supported this short sighted legislation. And the blame falls squarely at the feet of the no more amnesty bunch who prevented a decent, humane, pro-business comprehensive immigration bill from passing in the U.S. Congress (the original bill proposed by McCain, Flake and Kolbe). Because I live in Arizona and work with business people, I hear the concerns on a daily basis; it's not the people who hired illegals that are complaining the most, it's the folks who sell to that community that are going to get killed. Lots of business in AZ depends on the migrant worker community and this is going to hurt the state big time. And for what? Because Latinos are taking the jobs of American citizens; watch AZ closely the next few years; there will a lot fewer jobs unless something is done at the national level. Because American businesses are taking advantage of Latino immigrants? You can bet these people would much rather keep the status quo (and their low paying jobs) than return to their home country without work. Because immigrants are a burden on society and they use services without paying taxes? Again, watch Arizona the next few years and see if our taxes decrease as this law takes effect. They won't and there is a pretty decent argument that the negative effect on the economy from this law will have a very negative effect on tax revenues; when comprehensive immigration legislation would have forced all migrant workers to pay taxes. What a waste.

[Booster]

3. As it should be. Laws are laws and we can't pick and choose

which ones we agree or disagree with - then we become Republicans.

[MrSlayer]

4. This should be a federal law.

Arizona is making headway against illegal immigration through this law. If they can't get work, they leave. Good for Arizona. I'd like to see it spread across the nation.

[Zodiak]

20. I agree

it is good to see the problem attacked at the source for a change.

[blondeatlast]

37. It's been a law for two months. Are you kidding me? Posted from the heart of Phoenix, btw.

It has yet to stop any business from hiring them--believe me, it's quite evident they are still here.

But enjoy your little world.

[madeline_con]

5. Good.

[JosephSchmo]

6. this will hurt illegal immigrant families the worst

a business that has come to rely on cheap labor can adjust, if they have to.

An illegal immigrant who has built some kind of home for himself and has children to support will get absolutely NO work. It will be harder for them to move.

What we need is a way to best integrate immigrants into our society, because they want in.

[madokie]

25. I believe there is ways to do that but it doesn't start with breaking laws

This is a chance they took looks to me like.

[Geek_Girl]

76. I agree

I think we need to have a very open Immigration policy in regard to Mexico and start Unionizing the workers that come across the border.

[Cleita]

7. That's what all the wall builders wanted.

It's not the best solution as you can see. We need to increase our quotas and allow these people to enter legally. They will compete for jobs with Americans but they won't lower wages if they are legal because everyone will have to follow the law in that respect. But don't listen to me.

[amandabeech]

47. Unfortunately, the law of supply and demand will still work.

When more people looking for work in a given field in a given area, employers don't offer much.

It's that way in the field I'm in now. Plenty of new people every year, and no hope for a raise even if you're the best. Hard, high-quality work doesn't pay off. No benefits, either. I hope to be out of it by the end of the year.

I hope that you're right about your claim that legalizing legals while increasing the labor force will result in better wages and benefits, but from my perspective, it doesn't look good.

[Cleita]

56. You need to raise minimum wage first to where it belongs as

covering minimun needs like rent with enough left over for the rest, food and such. This is positive reinforcement of the labor market rather than negative enforcement of fines and other punishing acts towards employers. Then employers who have to pay the same wage to everyone, will actually look for the best employees.

From experience I know that the workers from south of the border are better workers and more reliable. It will force Americans to compete with them to be better or at least as good as them as workers, but they won't have to compete over who will take the lowest wage, so it won't be as bad as it is now if American workers step up to the plate. Also, American workers will have the advantage of speaking fluent English, which employers want.

[amandabeech]

61. Employers don't give a shit about whether everyone speaks English when everyone speaks Spanish and

someone speaks English.

Your experience on the worth of U.S. employees and mine differs 180 degrees.

What you are suggesting is that the United States, unlike any other country in the world, throw open its borders to anyone to get the best workers in any field who will work for the least amount of money.

Apparently, you want to turn a wonderful COUNTRY into the worst SWEATSHOP on the planet. You cannot lay people off from citizenship, but frankly, I think that you should resign yours and move where you think the great workers are. Leave the rest of us alone.

I completely appalled not only that you call yourself a Democrat and post on what is a very progressive Democratic board, but have the shriveled heart of the most devoted Republican on Wall Street.

I wish that such horribly Repubican views could get you removed from DU, because surely, you don't belong here. Unfortunately, no one gets kicked off for being a callous Wall Streeter.

Good-bye and good riddance!!

[Cleita]

64. So what are your non-Republican views? That workers shouldn't

have a living minimum wage? That we should criminilize a demographic of people, who are our neighbors, because they are poor and are poor because of the very foreign policies our government extends to Latin America? Pretty please explain to me why your views are liberal and mine are "Wall Streeter"?

[Geek_Girl]

77. I think the Solution lies in Unionizing the Immigrants that come accross the borders

[amandabeech]

79. How does that repeal the law of supply and demand?

Or do you think that supply and demand doesn't work in labor markets?

I'm serious about my question.

[Cleita]

80. Of course it does. We need to let them come in legally to begin

with so that they have rights and the unions should solicit their membership. It's the only way for an even playing field until we solve the real problem which is how Mexico treats it's working class. Our government needs to pressure Mexico on this so that their workers will want to stay home. You never know, maybe even Americans might start finding things greener down there for them than here, if Mexico starts recognizing worker's rights. Wouldn't that be turning the tables?

[mvccd1000]

8. This is where the enforcement belongs

Go after the employers, and the prime motivation for being here illegally goes away. I'm all for this law, although I believe we need to make more guest worker visas available, should the need arise for them.

As for the argument that Americans won't do this work, just let the economy keep going the way its going. I wasn't nearly as picky about job prospects when I faced the possibility of losing my house several years ago.

[SoCalDem]

9. THAT's the way to discourage illegal immigration

Drug dealers & other criminals get their property forfeited, why not the scumbags who drive labor costs down, by hiring workers who will gladly undercut workers who USED to do those jobs.


I would favor having the "knowingly" removed from the wording.. They "know" who is legal and who is not.. by putting "knowingly" in there, they are allowing extra wiggle-room for lawyers to use for the well-connected businesspeople...

They should make employers post a bond for all their employees, and if any are found to be ineligible to work here, they would forfeit the bond and lose their license..

[EFerrari]

11. I've never met an undocumented worker who GLADLY

will work for lower wages. Have you?

We really have to get over blaming these people for trying to live when our government has screwed up theirs for two hundred years with no sign of butting out.

[SoCalDem]

12. When you do not have papers, you are ultimately taken advantage of

and out here at least, they DO willingly work for less..They are overworked, underpaid, and treated horribly, because they are LIED to.. They come here thinking that they will be making plenty of money, but when the high cost of living here hits them between the eyes, they are royally screwed, and end up having to stay in low paid under-the-table jobs,using phony IDs and always afraid of being caught..

The BOSSES are the criminals here because they "know" the people they are hiring are NOT legal..and for the ones who hire both, the handwriting's on the wall.,.don't ask for a raise, or you TOO could be replaced by someone willing to work for less..

It's pure greed

[EFerrari]

13. Having a whole class of workers who have no access to the law

is a noxious situation for us all.

Where abuse is possible, it will happen. And where denial is possible, it will also happen. We forget (if we ever knew) how many of the buildings along the Mall were built by slave labor. This country has never really given up on slave labor, it just redecorated it.

[SoCalDem]

14. Isn't it the ultimate irony, if a black man gets to occupy the White House

in a place built with slave labor?

[EFerrari]

15. It can't happen soon enough.

:)

[Bridget Burke]

30. Most of our "experts" have never met any undocumented workers at all....

Even though they've eaten in restaurants staffed by them. And bought houses built by them.

[Dawggie]

10. Even if you are Tyson? Or Sunshine Foods?

I doubt it as they probably help keep Joe in office.

[madokie]

16. Now we're talking

[EMdamascus]

17. Good news for AZ!

They are bankrupting our state and our services. At least three hospitals have closed in Tucson mainly due to deadbeat "immigrants". Working construction over 30 yrs, I can tell you that they definitly take jobs away from citizens and drive down wages. Anyone saying otherwise are uninformed.

[madokie]

18. could't agree more

welcome to DU

Oklahoma has a new simular law on the books and its having an effect on the construction work around here. there for a while the crew I worked with was one of the only American concrete crews left standing. Now my brothers are all smiling with plenty of work. Its hard to compete with a crew who are paying under the table and low wages to boot when you are paying upwards of 20 bucks an hour. just saying ;-)

[AlphaCentauri]

33. Hard to compete with quality and hard work

[Bridget Burke]

28. Which hospitals closed in Tucson?

Are you sure the "deadbeat immigrants" are to blame? (Lots of Native Born Americans have problems paying hospital bills.)

And we've got lots of immigrants--legal & not--here in Houston. And the Texas Medical Center is full of construction....

[blondeatlast]

44. FWIW, this Arizonan hasn't heard a thing about it--and I'm pretty certain

it would have been big news... :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

43. Which hospitals "closed?" Cite a link? From a fellow Zonie who--let's just say it--

thinks you are citing false statistics.

This isn't FR--we require some documentation, guy.

[NeedleCast]

19. Good

We don't have an illegal immigration problem. We have an illegal hiring problem.

[mvccd1000]

21. ??

They kinda go together, don't they?

[Beausoleil]

24. The illegal hiring is the catalyst. n/t

[mvccd1000]

27. It's a symbiotic relationship.

If it wasn't so easy to get illegal labor, companies would not realize such a cost savings by hiring that labor.

Still, I agree that business currently bears the brunt of the blame, and should be where we start the process of fixing the problem.

[NeedleCast]

36. More a Parasitic relationship

Mostly with business praying on illegals. Illegal immigrants have no police protection and no access to justice. If an employer screws them over (and there's plenty of evidence that this is the norm), who can they go to? Labor intensive businesses LOVE illegal immigrants...no better way to keep costs down, profits up and ensure that there's no complaining done.

[mvccd1000]

42. Maybe....

... but IF we had that huge imaginary fence around the entire border and coastline of the US, thus making it nearly impossible for illegals to get here, businesses would find another way to hire labor.

If we had better guest worker programs, making more labor available, businesses would probably use them.

Because of the ready supply of illegal labor (who suffer from the problems you mention), they are the first choice, though.

Take away either - the motivation for the business to hire them, or the pool of labor, and the problem begins to go away.

Personally, I agree with going after the businesses first, but I don't agree that they are 100% responsible. The illegals who come here, and the federal government who lets them do so bear some of the blame.

[NeedleCast]

51. Mostly Agree With You

I think, however, making the labor pool go away is well neigh impossible. Roughly 60% of the millions of cases tying up immigration courts (on the taxpayer dime) are repeat offenders. Business probably would try to find a way to cheapen labor, but it would be considerably harder. I find it tough to blame illegals when I put myself in their position. Its a hell of a lot better to be poor in US than it is to be poor in most of the rest of the world.

[NeedleCast]

35. No...Cause and Effect

One begats the other. If companies were stopped from illegal hiring, the job market for illegal immigrants would go away and for the most part, illegal immigration would cease. Sure, you'd still get some illegal immigration for any number of reasons, but it would slow to a trickle.

As someone who works in the US immigration court system, I get a pretty clear picture of why people come here illegally and about 90% of them are here for work. Maybe 5% here illegally because they have family here (who are usually also here illegaly), maybe 3% for political asylumn and 2% would fall into the "other" category.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

48. Finally, a reasoned response from an immigration professional!

Congrats, from an immigration paralegal and legal alien myself (now green card holder) :D

[NeedleCast]

52. Hehe, You Called me Professional

It's been an interesting ride and I've learned a lot working for the immigration court. I sit in approximatly 500 hearings a year and you learn a lot about the way the system works (or doesn't work, as the case may be). I have quite a bit of sympathy for many illegal immigrants...the court rips families apart, sends people back to abject poverty, etc, but at the end of the day, it's the law and the people here illegally are utimatly responsible for their being here illegally.

At the end of the day I think its important to remember that despite their illegal status, illegal immigrants are people with rights. They run the gammit from those deserving of asylumn, who have been brutally tortured in their home countries for any number of reasons to some jackass being deport for the sixth time in two years.

[Beausoleil]

22. Key word = "knowingly"

But hey, it's a start.

[RoadRage]

23. I think this is the BEST way to stop Illegal Immigration..

On this issue, perhaps i'm a bit more "right" then some of my liberal friends would like. But, we do need to stop illegal immigration, and I think hitting the employers is the best way to go at it.

If we fined an employeer $10,000 for every Illegal person they are caught hiring, that would quickly bring an end to this problem. Make it easier for corporations to pay an American a higher live-able wage then it is to hire an Illegal.

Set up a hotline (similar to like the IRS uses) that people can call in and report companies that are breaking this law.

Forget going door-to-door looking for these people.. if they can figure out how to stay here, and not work - more power to them. They're still paying taxes on the items they purchase - thus contributing to the economy (somewhat). But this type of legislation would make it more difficult to stay here then to go back home and try to enter legally.

This WILL drive up the cost of goods. If we're paying American's $8 - $10 an hour to pick oranges, frame houses, etc... the cost of those items go up. But, the cost of other services like healthcare, education, etc. should go down because we're not supporting as many people who aren't paying into the system.

Go ahead.. flame away.

[AlphaCentauri]

34. Other solution could include outsourcing those jobs

so they can stay in their country...

:sarcasm:

[sentelle]

46. $10,000 is chump-change

it should be made that for every illegal worker you hire, the fine doubles....
10k for the first,
20k for the second,
40k for the third,
80k for the fourth,
160k for the fifth,
320k for the sixth,
640k for the seventh,
1.28m for #8, and on it goes.


As you see it qickly adds up. Additionally, I would be for having no maximum amount.... for companies with tens of illegal workers, they will be out of work after.

[Megahurtz]

65. I Won't Flame

the businesses and Corporations need to be penalized and hit hard in the pocketbook because they are the ones who are exploiting them by hiring them
for peanut wages and treating them like shit. And in turn the Corporations are also exploiting hard-working Americans. Time for a change!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. What standard of "knowingly" are they applying?

Unless it's an extremely strict one, this strikes me as as suspect piece of legislation.

Cracking down on those who employ illegal immigrants, rather than on the immigrants themselves, is legislation that's bound to be popular - it can appeal to both pro-immigrant and anti-immigrant lobbies - but is unlikely to do much good - it will do a lot to make life harder for illegal immigrants, and it will penalise people who try to help them, but it won't actually do much to reduce illegal immigration.

Knowingly employing an illegal immigrant *should* be a criminal offence, but not as severe an offence as being an illegal immigrant, and "knowingly" should require a very high standard of proof.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Yes, let's be sure that the Employers get all the legal breaks.

And to hell with the workers.

[mvccd1000]

32. I believe the law spells that out, too.

Employers have to use the federal verification system on all new employees. If you're caught with an employee who is flagged in that system, you are considered to have knowingly hired an ineligible person.

(That's my understanding, anyway, based on articles in the Arizona papers.)

[Mountainman]

38. I think there is no such thing as a flag of an illegal. Illegals are not identified.

How could we get a data base of illegal immigrants?

[mvccd1000]

45. I don't think I said there was...

... if you've read anything about our new law, you'll know which federal system I'm talking about. (E-verify? something like that.)

I believe it somehow checks for valid SSNs, which, of course, illegals cannot have.

I haven't read up on the entire process, but it's withstood three court challenges so far. If it makes it through the 9th Circuit, it's probably going to be golden.

[Mountainman]

53. "If you're caught with an employee who is flagged" <--- from your post

:shrug:

[mvccd1000]

67. Better read the post again.

"If you're caught with an employee who is flagged in that system."

Nowhere did I mention that "that system" is a list of illegals. "That system" is a way to verify that the ssn in question is valid and belongs to the name of the person presenting it.

I agree with you that it would be nearly impossible to come up with a "database of illegals," which is why neither I, nor the law, suggested doing such a thing. That's all you.....

[Marrah_G]

31. Good- That's one small part of the problem in one state

Now they need to:

Seal the borders.
Give everyone who is not a criminal and is already here a work visa.
Provide free and accessible language classes to all immigrants.

Illegal workers cannot complain, will work for peanuts, never file unemployment or workman's comp, and have no idea what OSHA is. They can be treated like easily replaceable slaves.

I am all for these companies being put out of business and the owners facing possible jailtime.

[seabeyond]

39. use to be that way. the way it should be. good. n/t

[blondeatlast]

40. Andrew Thomas stomps on the civil rights of the likes of everyone who posted here--

read a LW blog, he may be watching you, with the help of Joe Arpaio:

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2007-11-29/news/enemies-list/full

[Ganja Ninja]

41. Here's what I think we ought to do about illegal immigrants.

If a company is caught employing an illegal immigrant they should fine the company 7 to 10 thousand dollars. A couple grand would go to the government for processing. Another thousand would pay for their transportation back to their country of origin and the rest would go to the immigrant who would be required to use the money to apply for legal immigration status.

[Ellen Forradalom]

49. More accurately: Didn't Pay Off the Right People? Lose Your Business!

That law's a recipe for corruption.

[EFerrari]

50. Exactly. Just one more layer of corruption. n/t

[blondeatlast]

54. Believe me--the mom and pop's are going to hurt, the massive resort hotels will never see a day

in court--and guess which of those are the biggest offenders?

I live in Phoenix and this won't do a damn thing except overtax already overburdened local law enforcement--except for our corrupt and meida whoring Sherriff and Cty. Attorney, who are salivating already about the publicity.

[Desertrose]

55. Rumors of a raid in my town last year & it shut down. Literally.

Restaurants didn't/couldn't open...place was like a freaking ghost town.I'm in N Az.

Don't know what the answer is,but don't think this is the one.

[blondeatlast]

58. I'm waiting for Sheriff Joe to pull a stunt like this at one of the huge resorts here in Phoenix/

Scottsdale.

He's never cared for things like proper jurisdiction or civil rights and our new County Attorney supports him blindly.

It's going to get interesting.

Heh, heh--did you notice upthread that someone has already claimed that the law is working--after 1 1/2 months? :rofl:

[Desertrose]

59. Yeah. Saw that...why am I not surprised.....

So glad I am farther away from good ol' Sheriff Joe. :scared:

[Yavapai]

63. Most dangerous place on Earth

Between Sheriff Joe, Jessie Jackson and a group of TV cameras! :yoiks:

[mvccd1000]

68. Claiming the law is working?

Maybe that's because every paper in the valley is reporting that illegals are heading out of town? :)

If that's the definition of "working," then one would suppose that the law is working, wouldn't he?

[blondeatlast]

69. the papers can say what hey want. I shop, eat in restaurants, drive by Home Depots

and Lowes and I've lived here nost of my life.

Who am I going to believe--Gannett Newspapers or my own eyes? I'll put my faith on the latter... :rofl:

[mvccd1000]

72. It'll be a long time before we see a difference on the streets.

I live in Mesa, where there is no shortage of loiterers on the street hopping into pickup trucks. I think those will be the last ones to go - after all, the guy who comes by and offers them $40 to trim trees in his back yard all day is not someone who's going to lose a license by hiring them.

That will be the last pool to dry up, IMO.

[madokie]

74. Oklahoma has a new law as of last november and I must say we can see the results, or lack of

each day. there were getting to be so many I suspected to be illegals around here but today in my travels I would bet I won't see a one who I would think thats maybe illegal.
I look past their families to see our families and the damage a cheap work force to compete with has upon them. sorry but have a great day nevertheless. ;-) I will.
peace

[Scout]

57. good ... i'll be sure to forward this to my nephew-in-law n/t

[Quantess]

60. Good!

Finally.

[yurbud]

62. not as dracomian as yur headline sounded. I like it.

If you threw the farmers and businessmen who hired them in jail for one night, we wouldn't even need border patrol. No illegal immigrants would get jobs.

[Ptah]

70. And the appeal to that ruling is being filed.

Challengers appealing ruling upholding sanctions law

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0208sanctions-appeal0208-ON.html

Critics of Arizona's new employer sanctions law are filing expected appeals of a judge's ruling that upholds
the measure to punish employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

Business and minority advocacy groups on Friday filed separate notices of appeal in response to the ruling
issued late Thursday by U.S. District Judge Neal Wake.

The appeals will be submitted to San Francisco-based U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.

[mvccd1000]

71. I think that'll be their fourth appeal.

If I'm not mistaken, this ruling was a defeat for their third attempt.

[Ptah]

73. I think they will pursue it to the Supreme Court. n/t

[KharmaTrain]

75. Most "Illegals" Don't Stay In Arizona

The last couple years I spent some time in and around Tucson and Phoenix...I would joke with my friends there that I thought the place was over-run by "Frito Banditos". I was laughed at and told that there isn't good money in Arizona (especially now with the housing market gone bust) and that those who come through town usually are on their way elsewhere...further north.

I've long been in favor of heavy fines for corporations that show a pattern of hiring illegals...and that's not just Mexicans. There are thousands of others who let visas expire and vanish into the underground (we have a lot of Eastern Europeans who fit that catagory around here). Fines should also be proportional...charge the large corporations who benefit the most a $10,000 per day per undocumented worker and my bets are we'd see this problem fade away quickly.

As long as the issue of "illegals" is tied up in racism and not viewed in a bigger context, it will remain a wedge issue and a loser for the repugnicans.

[mvccd1000]

78. True, but a lot of them do.

I think the article I read guestimated 550,000 of them.

I agree with your assessment about the racist part of the issue, but I don't think it's limited to Repubs. Any time the issue comes up here, I think the majority of members automatically brand anyone raising the issue as a racist. That's no way to have a dialog about the problem, either.

[Zorra]

81. Maybe Arizona's unfathomably pathetically low wages will go up now.

They call Arizona a "right to work state".

That is fascist speak for "if you don't like what we pay you, then starve, because we can always hire an undocumented worker for even less."