You can take guns away from law-abiding citizens, but not from these guys.

[Irreverend IX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HrucqUaaZE

Take a good look at who's responsible for the thousands of yearly gun murders in the US. Mass shootings like Columbine and Virginia Tech can grab headlines, but those events are little more than statistical noise. The lion's share of firearm killings are committed by people like the guys in this video, usually because someone was muscling in on their drug turf, disrespecting them, or for some other reason incomprehensible to anyone with more emotional maturity than a 5-year-old.

And you can bet that no one in this video purchased their firearms legally. Virtually all of them probably have felony records that would stop any legal purchase attempt cold. As long as you can get rich slinging dope, dealers will find a way to get the tools of the trade.

The only way to shut these guys down for good is to legalize drugs, eliminating the source of the cash you see them waving around. But no one in Washington has the courage to come out and say that, so we're stuck with our high murder rate and escalating gun control laws that do nothing to change it.

[havocmom]

1. And think of all the mental health care that could be bought

with taxed legal drugs. THAT would also cut gun deaths more than trying to make guns illegal

But, you and I are just being logical and pragmatic, not traits appreciated in this emotional issue.

Personally, I would rather see personal internal combustion engine driven vehicles banned first. Think of how many deaths AND POLLUTION that would prevent. (now, start your stopwatch to see how fast I get flamed;) )

[midnight]

4. Now that is a ecomomic reality that needs to see the day of light.

Time to move forward and provide funding for people and not wars.

[Mountainman]

8. I work for a county alcohol, drug and mental health services dept.

98% of our money comes from federal and state governments and 2% from county general funds. We are having a $6.7 million shortfall this year because of cut backs in federal and state reimbursements, lower tax revenue and the increasing number of uninsured.
What going to happen is less rehabilitation and more drug use as the economy gets tighter and tighter.
More and more people will turn to drugs and alcohol to get through the day, crime will increase and the righteous will still preach their old song and dance.

We will never use logic and reason in this case.

[ileus]

28. you know they still have to BUY the drugs...

And you can bet your ass they won't be working 40hrs a week to support their habit...Well maybe working 40 hours robbing people.

[havocmom]

34. What is your point? Think of all the resources wasted in War in Drugs.

It is a sham. Those resources could be better spent dealing with issues that make people choose drugs over life. And treatment does not offer nearly the opportunity for corruption. Drugs taken off the street sometimes end up back on, just sold by different faces. Treatment does not really have much black market value.

Less profit in being a crooked cop, lawyer, administrator MIGHT mean better people in those positions. We might see less of power hunger greedy crooks in positions of authority and more people really interested in serving the community. I know lots of good cops who quit because of the corruption. That is just plain sad and a huge loss to all of us.

edited for typo

[alfredo]

56. As long as there is a demand, there will be a supply. A supply side

solution will never work and they know it. The war on drugs is an end in itself. The politicians have an issue, the prison industry has steady revenue, police departments have steady work.

[wtmusic]

2. Ya think the "tools of the trade" would be so available

if there were more restrictions on buying them in the first place??

OMFG, the naivete around here is unbelievable. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

7. Have you ever bought one, wtmusic?

Do you know what one has to go through to get a handgun legally?

[wtmusic]

11. No, I haven't

I know there is a background check and a waiting period. Am I missing something?

If it's so damn difficult, where do the illegal ones come from (assuming they were once legal)?

[slackmaster]

17. There is no federal waiting period, but background check can take up to 72 hours

Usually it clears or busts you in under 20 seconds. You also have to fill out some paperwork and sign an affidavit that the answers you gave are truthful (e.g. you are the actual buyer, you are not a convicted felon, etc.).

My state has a 10-day waiting period, and additional proof of residency requirements. And a trigger lock requirement. And you have to demonstrate that you know how to safely unload the gun you are buying.

If it's so damn difficult, where do the illegal ones come from (assuming they were once legal)?

A US Department of Justice survey of convicted criminals not long ago listed the most common source as a friend or relative, who bought the gun for them in an illegal "straw" purchase. Some got them from people who stole them. Very few actually bought them in legal face-to-face private-party transfers.

The real problem with trying to regulate the secondary market in used guns is that it's beyond the scope of authority of the federal government, if a sale occurs within one state and does not involve someone with a Federal Firearms License. States can regulate those transactions, but not all do.

[Irreverend IX]

10. Typical "Gangstas and Thugs" have multiple felony convictions.

They are totally restricted from buying guns. Many live in places like Chicago and Washington DC, where handguns and concealed carry are completely banned. The fact is, when there's money to be made, someone will find a way to get around whatever laws stand in their way. And if guns are banned, illegal ones will become just as hot a commodity as drugs.

[EMdamascus]

24. There are alrady enough restrictions!

Do you think these scum actually purchase their guns at the sporting goods store? Your naivety is what is really frightening. Personally I feel we should give them free ammo and let them kill each other off!

[wtmusic]

37. Where do the weapons come from originally?

You can say they were bought on the street, but at one time someone walked into a store and purchased them.

Here's a restriction that makes sense: any firearm transfer has to be accompanied by a new registration. The seller is responsible not only for the registration, but for any crimes that result from the use of that weapon, while registered under his name. Even if it's stolen. Whoops! That firearm owner might have to start taking responbility for that weapon, whether it's sold or sitting unlocked in his dresser drawer.

:shrug:

[Pavulon]

41. So if someone steals from me

I am responsible for the crimes committed with that weapon. Like if someone steals your car and then kills someone in a wreck..

Nope.

Logic problem.

[wtmusic]

42. So you won't take responsibility for your weapon.

No the analogy doesn't hold:

-It's far easier to kill someone with a firearm, especially in a moment of passion.
-It's far, far easier to commit a crime of opportunity with a weapon (try robbing someone by threatening to run them over in your car).
-It's far easier to lock up a gun securely than a car.

There is an entire class of law already on the books dealing with shirking responsibility -- it's called reckless endangerment. Gun owners somehow feel it shouldn't apply to them.

Nice try though.

[Pavulon]

43. Sure it does

if I lock a weapon in my home (fist lock) then in a safe or secure place ( second lock) and a peckerwood steals it. There is nothing I can reasonably do to prevent this theft.

So if the same peckerwoodd steals you car, just like me, you are not responsible for the actions said peckerwood takes after stealing your property.

This is long established law. You are welcome to lobby for a change.

Feelings have jack to do with this discussion.

[wtmusic]

44. If you locked your gun in that manner

it would be extremely unlikely anyone could steal it.

So there is a lot you can do to reasonably prevent gun theft, and I would bet most gun theft involves guns which are unsafely stored and are unlocked.

So if you're safe you have nothing to worry about. What's the problem? Reckless endangerment is also long-established law...you don't think it applies to you?

[Pavulon]

46. Context. Frame jacking..

anti gun folks, like those who look for loopholes in the law to ban abortions, use existing law in an attempt to impact freedoms. An example is product liability law and the path you are taking.

Leaving a loaded gun in a public place is endangerment. A weapon stolen, in a criminal act, is not the responsibility of the owner. BTW you are aware that people stole weapons from a FUCKING National Guard ARMORY on more than one occasion. This involved a federal investigation.

So by your logic the government is responsible for all the NFA weapons it loses. NJ just lost an MP5.

Jacking the frame is very interesting in concept and application.

[Recursion]

65. Actually, a given car in the US is more likely to kill someone than a given gun

I ran the numbers on it in the Gungeon a few weeks ago: a car has a 0.026% chance of killing someone during its lifetime, and a gun has a 0.014% chance -- and note that the lifetime of a gun is much longer than the lifetime of a car.

[Pavulon]

33. You think these idiots

legally purchase weapons..?

[Greyhound]

60. We are the largest manufacturer and distributer of these tools in the world.

Do you seriously believe that you can keep them out of the hands of anybody that wants one or a dozen.

The fundamental truth that neither Democrats nor Republiks seem to never really get is that, prohibition never works.

Say it with me now, prohibition doesn't work. Never has, never will.

[zanne]

71. If I wanted to buy illegal drugs...

I wouldn't know where to go to get them and the penalty for buying illegal drugs would be enough to deter me from doing so. I know most people feel that way. If, however, I wanted to buy a gun, I can think of three gun shops off the top of my head in my area who would be very happy to sell me one. Your argument has huge holes in it.

[Greyhound]

73. Not at all, your professed ignorance of where to get prohibited drugs in no way

diminishes the fact that they can be had, easily, on a moments notice.

Your position seems to be that the limits of your experience define reality.

Full auto weapons have been all but outlawed for over 80 years, yet if you give me the money I will bring you one this afternoon. I don't have any, nor do I know anyone that sells them, but I do know how things work and where things can be found.

The argument stands, prohibition does not, and never has, worked.

[zanne]

74. BWAHAHA!

Now I'm terribly "ignorant" because I don't know where to get illegal drugs! Way to go, greyhound!

[Greyhound]

76. Nice spin, you added terribly and you said you were ignorant of where to find drugs. Try again.

Better yet, go back to your GD;P cesspool. A few people there will fall for this crap, not so much here...
:hi: :kick:

[zanne]

75. Well, at least I like your dog. nt

[jmg257]

80. So you'r saying the PENALTY of committing crimes is ALL we need 2 keep people from committing crime?

Then why even bother considering gun bans? There ARE already penalties involved with using guns illegally.
According to you, those penalities should be enough.


Ahh, but we know the real truth don't we? Criminals DON'T CARE whether it is illegal or not, they just do it anyway. They want guns, they WILL get them, as we readily see. All they really worry about are the promise of easy gains and some unarmed victims.

[jmg257]

81. Double Post nt

[benEzra]

62. You mean, unavailable like cocaine, heroin, and pot? (n/t)

[zanne]

3. Ban handguns..

Alot more people have guns than drugs. Guns are much easier to get. Hell, good ole' Uncle Harry will lend you his! If drugs were legal, drug use would increase tenfold. Guns are legal and some people are just adddicted to the gun culture. The argument that only bad people use illegal guns is ridiculous, because they're guns whether they're legal or not, and just as easily misused. As far as the "self-defense" argument goes, you'd have to be the Fastest Gun In The West to make that argument stick. People don't announce when they're going to shoot you so you'll have a chance to get at your gun, even if you're carrying it.

[karlrschneider]

16. Better yet, ban drugs. Oh, wait...

:eyes:

[zanne]

66. dupe

[zanne]

67. There would be as many "drug" shops as there are gun shops.

I hope you're not implying that the drug laws don't keep people from buying them and getting addicted. If you think that, you're really hopeless. ANYTHING to defend the gun lobby, huh? You don't want freedom for everyone; you only want freedom for YOU. Anybody who ignores the tragedies that guns create just doesn't have a conscience. In some cases, having a (D) after your name is completely meaningless.

[Sanctified]

21. Anyone remember Prohibition?

At one time Alcohol was treated like drugs and where did it get us, and how did crime increase when it was illegal? Also I seriously doubt more people have guns than drugs, I remember me and my friends having a lot of pot at 13 but no guns.

[slackmaster]

5. Legalizing drugs is half of the solution

The other half is keeping convicted violent criminals in jail until they grow up.

[Mountainman]

6. " the source of the cash" is why drugs will never be legalized.

Think about all the people in the food chain that make money of off illegal drugs. The dealers, the law enforcement, the law makers, the rehabilitation community, the growers, the money launderers and on and on. If you legalize drugs they will all have to get real jobs.

[nightrider767]

9. These guys could use a gun safety course,,

I can't count the number of unsafe gun practices I saw.

One fellow was wiping the finger prints off of bullets while he was loading them into a clip.

I couldn't believe that! If he would have worn gloves, the prints would not have been an issue.

:sarcasm:

[Greyhound]

77. I might be wrong, but I swear that about halfway through I saw a Thompson.

Did you see that?

[jmg257]

78. Yep - unsure if it would be a full-auto or semi-auto though. nt

[krispos42]

12. Oh. My. God.

Those people are psychotic. They are egomaniacs. They are crazy.


And I could barely understand a word they said!



:scared:

[Wiley50]

13. Yep, and since it's obvious nothing will be done about poverty or drugs

that these guys make their money on
someday these guys will invade the neighborhoods where the money is.

I'd hate to see what these guys do when they over
run your typical affluent couch potato

whether said potato is armed or not.

It's coming people

Better get your heads out of your ass and end the war on drugs

and do something to end poverty, get these guys educated and in real jobs

The gangs will over run the ghetto sooner or later

and be storming your living rooms

[karlrschneider]

15. Too late to educate that subhuman garbage. Unfortunately.

...

[karlrschneider]

14. You aren't fluent in "gansta"?

Me either...

[krispos42]

19. No, sadly.

Is "word up" still being used? How about "phat"?

"Homie"? That was used a lot in "In Living Color". Is that still used?



Actually, I was reminded of Joe Biden while watching that video... "A noun, a verb, and 'N***a'"! :wow:

[Irreverend IX]

18. One of them was talking about the safety on his AK...

Saying something like "We always keep the safety off, even in the house, cause we don't play it safe. I'm going to break the safety off right now!"

And I wonder what went through the cameraman's head when all those guys were pointing guns at him with fingers on the trigger. Whoever shot those parts is either the bravest bastard alive or has a brain the size of a peanut... unfortunately, I think I know which.

[krispos42]

20. Yeah, I saw that

:wow:

And of course, when he does get a Darwin award for blowing his brains out through the ceiling, the nannies will blame the gun.

Remember, folks...

[sir pball]

29. You can fix stupid

Unfortunately the fixee doesn't tend to survive :)


I realized this the other day; my dad read a letter in the local rag claiming that "truly skilled motorcyclists don't wear helmets...the additional weight will SNAP YOUR NECK IN A CRASH!!!", he used the can't fix stupid line, I promptly said "Sure you can, riding without a helmet will definitely fix stupid...course, you probably won't live to enjoy it.."

Same applies to ridiculous gun antics.

[CRF450]

61. Yeah, and whats really sad is that kids these days talk like them.

[Sanctified]

22. Nothing scares white people more than black people with guns, n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. That little display should scare EVERYONE.

Unless you're totally OK with heavily armed criminals rampaging about shooting their guns into the air. I don't give a flying fuck if said criminals are black, white, green, or purple. Jesus.

[Sanctified]

38. Who said they were criminals? n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

45. You're right. Guys talking about "shooting a nigga" while firing AKs in the air...

... are clearly peaceful, gentle, law abiding people.

Give me a fucking break and stop with the inane race-baiting. White people don't have a monopoly on stupid, criminal thugdom.

[EnviroBat]

64. Discharging a firearm within city limits is a criminal act in most states.

Go back to sleep.

[Lex Talionis]

25. Wow! You get the prize for.. most ridiculous post on this thread

Congratulations!

[Recursion]

70. Sorry, but the racist history of gun control is hard to overcome

Gun control was how Jim Crow started

Gun control still uses racist code words -- we seem to be fine with "hunters" (ie, rural whites) having guns, it's those "criminals" (ie, urban blacks and latinos) who we have to disarm.

[Lex Talionis]

72. That is true. Disarming the black man is what most gun control is about.

Thats why If I were a law abiding black man in DC I'd want to be able to protect my family and myself. The graph showing black on black crime should be eye opening to most free thinkers, too. All the hunters I know don't shoot into the air nor kill for hunting rights.

[Junkdrawer]

26. Nothing boosts gun sales more than videos of black people with guns. n/t

[Pavulon]

32. If you were familiar with FBI stats Nothing Should scare BLACK people

more than other black people with guns. Murder is generally committed within race. However blacks are overrepresented and more likely to be killed by murder.

This is a socio economic and CULTURAL problem. It must be addressed.

[Sanctified]

39. So we should ban blacks from buying guns?

I would be more interested in seeing stats based on economics over race. I am willing to bet poor people are more willing to use guns for crime over race.

[Pavulon]

40. The stats are posted on fbi.gov and are quite clear.

murder is committed, generally, along racial lines. You brought race into it, so I pointed out your problem. Blacks are statistically more likely ot be killed by another black person (black on black crime).

These are not conclusions, or opinions, they are facts. Rich, poor plays a part. Culture plays a part. These are opinions.

Bans are ineffective. Addressing poverty, disparity in racial achievement, and other factors that promote crime is a great start.

[krispos42]

48. Handy graphs...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

[uppityperson]

36. Oh bullshit. eom

[NNN0LHI]

49. Oh yea, try Fat Boy has Guns once

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=27635401

[Recursion]

68. Ah, Rob Williams...

Laws didn't stop the Klan

Marches didn't stop the Klan

Hand-wringing didn't stop the Klan



"Negros with guns" stopped the Klan

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/negroeswithguns/

[ecstatic]

27. I agree: Legalize drugs and the whole criminal activity surrounding

it becomes moot.

[-..__...]

30. Screw'em

While I agree the war on drugs is bullshit, with some of these gang-banging shitstains drugs and or money is only part of the equation.

Neither has to be involved for the gun related violence to occur nowadays... look at someone the wrong way, talk to the wrong girl, say the wrong thing and these hot headed pissants will open fire. With todays culture of thugs it's all about "respect", gaining "street cred", etc.

If that's the game they want to play, then it's time to ratchet up the rules...

5 years (min), for a convicted felon to be in possession of a firearm.

10 years (min), for a convicted felon to carry, brandish, discharge a firearm.

20 years (min), for use during a crime.

25 years to life if illegal use of a firearm results in injury or death.

Sentence(s),to be served consecutively.

Fuck'em.

[Irreverend IX]

50. The drug trade is what allows them to live the thug lifestyle.

Take away the cash flow from drugs (and legalize prostitution as well), and these guys will no longer be able to get the guns, the girls or the spinning rims. They'll have the choice of putting on a paper hat at McDonald's or starving.

[Lex Talionis]

52. They'll have the choice of putting on a paper hat at McDonald's or starving.

Pretty naive aren't you? No, this type of human would not starve nor work. This type would kill your grandmother for her SS check. The real world is not what you see on MTV. Some here believe in gun control. Facing these types you will need trigger control and more of these "humans" are on the way.

[Irreverend IX]

53. I don't think you understand where I'm coming from.

I fully support gun rights and armed self-defense. Of course drug dealers would have the option of robbing people for a living once drugs are legalized, but career muggers tend to have short and unpleasant lives. The thug lifestyle is possible because of easy money from drugs. Making money through robbery is much less easy, especially places like Florida, the "Gunshine State," where the OP video was made.

[Lex Talionis]

55. I stand corrected and apologize.

Some could say that by keeping drugs illegal, these types control their own numbers. Of course that doesn't help those who have some good in them and want to leave the "hood". These "humans" usually prey on their own. I dare say that no one on this site would want to be caught unarmed around them.

[EnviroBat]

63. Sad part is, we're running out of room to lock these maggots away.

The police won't patrol neighborhoods like these. Hell, do you think any of the neighbors would even call them? These clowns are domestic terrorists, with 0 regard for human life. The neighbor hoods that they've taken over are every bit as dangerous as fucking Baghdad. That morons like this live and breathe is reason enough for me to believe in my right to protect myself and family with a firearm, or two...

[Wcross]

31. Is that "the gun culture" that anti gun people are always referring to?

Those individuals are extremely dangerous. They do not value life at all. Not their own and certainly not anyone else's. I will never willingly surrender my firearms when there are people like that in our society.

[avenger64]

59. Bingo!

n/t

[Blue_Tires]

35. the comments below the video are eye-opening as well

[frogcycle]

47. I vote for encouraging them to shoot each other

to hell with locking them up

[krispos42]

58. They are

I read an article a few months ago about Baltimore, and the high homicide rate there. Turns out that if you weren't directly or indirectly involved in street drugs, Baltimore was actually quite safe for a major American city.

Unfortunately, fresh bodies spring up from the poverty while essentially leaving the gangs untouched.

[Lorien]

51. When was a gun taken away from a law-abiding citzen?

I know more than my fair share of gun nuts. My own father has a freaking arsenal in his home, and no one has ever tried to take any of them away. :shrug:

[Dimensio0]

54. Did you hear what happened in New Orleans?

Guns were confiscated from law-abiding citizens, resulting in a lawsuit and federal legislation to stop states from doing that (unfortunately, the law only stops states from using Federal funding to do it, rather than banning the practice entirely).

When Cook County passed an "assault weapons ban", law enforcement used gun registration lists to confiscate registered guns covered under the ban.

[krispos42]

57. it's not that direct

Take California, for example. The State picks a bunch of guns and calls them "assault weapons", typcially based on arbitrary cosmetic features like pistol grips. All such weapons now must be registered with the State by a certain date, and after that certain date the registry closes, so you can't buy them anymore.

You also can't move into the state with one of the banned "assault weapons", you can't sell them to anybody in the state except a gun dealer, and you can't pass them onto your children or other heirs, all because the registry is closed and the new owner can't register it, even if they own similar guns.

Eventually the banned guns whither away, either stolen, seized by police for one reason or another, or sold to somebody out-of-state. At some point in the next few decades California will have zero legal "deadly assault weapons".



This of course refers to the legal guns. Criminals, who prefer vastly prefer handguns anyway, wouldn't notice any difference.

[Recursion]

69. After Katrina

People were taken out of their houses, handcuffed on the sidewalk, and their guns were confiscated. You can see it happen on YouTube.

Yes, at exactly the time when you probably most would want a gun, law enforcement came in, took the gun, and left you unable to defend yourself.

[LanternWaste]

79. And people still wonder why I do my best

And people still wonder why I do my best to avoid anyone with a firearm...

[Recursion]

82. I still wonder

Why do you avoid anyone with a firearm?

[LanternWaste]

83. Too many accidents happen-- even under the best of circumstances

Too many accidents happen-- even under the best of circumstances. It simply reduces the odds


...and before we go there, yes I know there are risks in everything-- let's simply call it a thumbnail cost benefit assessment: cars have a risk, but they benefit me directly. Firearms have a risk, but do not benefit me directly.

Some people avoid republicans, some people avoid authority figures, some people avoid asparagus, some people avoid guns.