To Anyone Who Thinks China has given up Socialism

[BayCityProgressive]

Communist Party of China in crisis: CHinese officials now MUST watch film documenting the fall of socialism in the USSR and what led to it. Film also advocates friednly relations with third world to create "global socialism" to rival "US capitalism". Sounds like we have another cold war brewing. Recently China angered private bankers by refusing to privatize rural and farm land..it is still all socialized. Hu Jintao has also launched a "building a harmonious society" "Building a socialist countryside" and New Deal style reforms for the cities. This is all interesting to me. It will be interestign how this all plays out in the next 5-10 years...

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/6-12-4/48925.html

[Purveyor]

1. Why should it be my concern if China remains 'socialist'? n/t

[niceypoo]

2. The cold war wasnt about socialism

It was about communism. China is a capitalist country. The republicans would cream their jeans if they turned the US into what china is now.

[BayCityProgressive]

3. You should care

because they are likely to be the main rival of the US in the next 10 years. I'd say we should start watching now because this friction will probably be the cause of more wars liek Iraq. As for China being capitalist...I don't think so. I really doubt the GOP would love it. They might love the human rights abuses or other corruption but I doubt they would love socialized property or the "Commanding Heights" of the economy being owned by the state, or 70% of foreign capital being unionized, no matter what the character of the union is. We can't even get them to agree on single-payer healthcare here!

If China continues to open up and sell off more state owned property then yes, the US GOP will like them. If they do anything to strengthen a safety net or socialize more property they will be our biggest rival. You should look into the work China has been doing in Africa. They have created "fair trade" deals with Africa and absolved a lot of their debt. The US is getting scared and is building a new US base to oversee our "interests" in Africa.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. socialism

is when the state owns the commanding heights of an economy and theoretically workers have greater control. Communism is when the state has completely withered away. There has never been a communist state.

[Selatius]

5. I don't think the state will whither away.

Nation-states, as entities, operate much like the mafia does. While individual members within the centralized, hierarchical structure of the state may think differently or be agnostic about abolishing the state, the state, acting like an organism of its own, tends not to want to give up power once its given.

This is why the collectivist school of thought splintered into two polar opposites at the 1st International, personified by Marx on one end and Bakunin on the other. Bakunin argued using the state as a stepping stone towards a true classless society was flawed in as much as the statist phase would automatically arrest itself instead of transitioning to the phase where the state theoretically gives up power.

I generally subscribe to the more libertarian socialist view. While I don't mind working with state socialists on things like health care, especially given a choice between them and those on the far right, I generally think true liberation would come through education, agitation, and ultimately organization from the bottom-up instead of the top-down.

As far as China is concerned, I wouldn't characterize China as being socialist at any period in the 20th century. How anybody could ascribe socialism to a system where workers are politically dispossessed is something I can't understand, since I generally believe socialism isn't possible without democracy. Then again, that's a function of how one defines socialism.

I would concede China was an example of a collectivist state. Whether it was democratic is another argument altogether. (Voluntary collectivism vs. involuntary collectivism)

[BayCityProgressive]

6. Yeah

I am not saying I do or don't endorse the theory..that's just what was thought to be the goal in classical Marxism..working class takes state from ruling class..uses state to secure their basic needs..state eventually not needed any longer. That's the theory..how long it takes or if it is realistic is another. I consider myself socialist but doubt that the state could ever completely dissapear. We could however, get rid of a lot of it. The War on Drugs, slash military budget, no corporate welfare, unicameral congress, ect but I doubt there would ever be a stateless society. I think a state can serve a good purpose for orgnaization when in the hands of the vast majority. We need things like the ability to recall all elected officials, IRV voting, and public funding of elections.

[Selatius]

7. On those specific examples, I agree with you.

The war on drugs, military spending, democracy reforms, etc.--I'm on the same page with you.

I generally think the ultimate impetus towards change must, first and foremost, originate from "the base" or the people themselves. The state as an entity should serve as a guide or even a bulwark from external attack in either a political or even military sense ideally, but often, the state does get in the way. The old example I trot out time and time again is the state's historic antipathy and animosity towards unions and union activists and socialist activists.

[BayCityProgressive]

9. I agree

the state should be subject to the whims of direct democracy in every action...they shouldn't be able to go against the will of the people and attack Iran for example and tell us it was a threat or that they are showing "leadership".

[Zynx]

8. China is essentially fascist.

Extremely nationalistic, militaristic, oppressive, government intervention in the economy on behalf of cronies, etc... I don't give a shit what they call themselves. The Nazi Party was the German Democratic Workers Party by name originally. North Korea is officially: The Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

[BayCityProgressive]

10. yeah

we can definately all criticize the government...my point in posting the article was to show that China is not moving in the same direction as the US as some politicians are pushing them to do..and they are likely to be a big part of our foreign policy in the near future.

[TomClash]

11. There's nothing socialist about China nt