Other forms of bigotry still "acceptable" in our culture.

[Turn CO Blue]

There has been much discussion in the last week about the "last remaining" form of bigotry - misogyny. Many other people, more articulate than I, have addressed that subject and I am glad to see the topic so out in the open.

But I want to raise the issue that there are indeed other forms of acceptable bigotry alive and well and just as sinister and often more overt than sexism.

Bigotry against obese people.
Bigotry against very short men.

I have witnessed both of these to the extreme, recently and often.

I work for an airline, and you would just not believe what very thin or average-sized people call in to say about having to sit next to large, overweight people. They are rabid, mean and nasty with the names and derision they use for "fat people". These people are filled with INTENSE HATRED for obese people and make all kinds of assumptions about their being stupid, lazy and odorous.

Many times they go on and on about how there "ought to be a federal law" prohibiting large people from traveling at all! And quite often they say many of these things on the flight itself, outloud to the flight attendants, directly in front of the large person they are insulting and the rest of the passengers all around. They have no qualms about saying these insults in public.

So, let's be very clear. There is no doubt that people often do not get the job or get promotions because they're overweight - and that is bigotry and discrimination by definition. The explanation given to avoid a suit is that the person doesn't present a professional enought image.

And for the other category -- I am married to a short man (5'5") and good grief, we have had people come up and insult him to his face for daring to exist. I have had other women tell me that they are happy for me, but they themselves don't know what I find attractive about a man who is so short (Aren't his legs too short? Doesn't that mean his thing wouldn't be very big?) I've never been in a physical fight in my life, but I can see how that would make me want to tear some woman's hair out. It's pretty ridiculous, because he has a very handsome face and a very fit, defined body. And he's four inches taller than me. Not good enough, apparently. And even if he were the homeliest man alive, he is my other half, for god's sake, and I just don't understand how people can be so shallow!

There are women and men everywhere who feel the need to demean short men (and women) every chance they get. Every romance novel and chick-flick talks about "tall men" and the women snicker about mean not over six feet tall having "short-comings". Ugh. And, even on DU, recall all the "elf" comments about Dennis Kucinich, and all the comments about how a short man could never be president.

I myself am only 5'1" and often hear comments about being a "midget" (I thought we killed that word!) or making jokes about how short people have "no reason to live" and "how's the weather down there?" It's not that these bother me; I have heard them all my whole life. But because I'm a woman, it is sort of "okay" if I'm petite. Not the ideal, certainly, but it is allowed.

Again, let's be very clear that some short men do not get the job or get a promotion - and that, by definition, is bigotry and discrimination. The explanation given is that the person doesn't seem to be the "type of leader" they're looking for. Remember that the vast majority of CEOs and VPs are over six feet tall.

So, don't expect to be seen on your merits or abilities if you're very heavy or a short man in this culture. And we can only imagine how painful life must be for any very short, very obese men out there.

---
tcb


P.S. I am adding this to purposefully steal some thunder. I realize that if this thread does not drop like a stone in a lake, there will be a couple of people sorely tempted (and they will succumb too) to respond with short-people jokes and fat-people jokes in this thread. So post away, and even if we all chuckle, it will prove my point - that even in the "sensitive" and "compassionate" land of DU/Liberals/Progressives, people still have ENORMOUS prejudices against short men and the obese, often rearing their heads through so-called "comedy".

[flvegan]

1. You are absolutely correct.

Good points. Hell, look at Kucinich who got shafted by many liberals because he's "short" and therefore unelectable.

Don't get me started on prejudice towards the overweight.

[Missy Vixen]

14. flvegan, I have to state publicly

>Don't get me started on prejudice towards the overweight.<

You are one of the kindest, most compassionate and tolerant people on DU towards the overweight. Skittles is another person that never fails to stick up for us.

I also wanted to mention that I've been one of those fat people on the airplane. The last time I sat in coach, I was walking to my seat and I heard another passenger (loudly enough for the entire planeload to hear,) call out, "God, I hope she's not sitting next to me." From that point on, I don't fly unless I can afford either first class or two seats. Luckily, we have lots of frequent flyer miles to make this happen.

Julie

[flvegan]

17. Thank you, Julie.

That was very kind of you to say. And yes, Skittles is one of the great ones here.

I'm sorry you had that experience on that airplane. I'm glad that you don't limit your personal enjoyment of your life because of some random jerk, having the ability to not do so. It pains me to think of the other JulieRBs out there that also won't fly...or go out...or go for a walk because they've had a bad experience with that same type of random jerk.

[MADem]

2. Don't forget the baldies, unless they look "cool" like Kojak!!!

That did Giuliani in...along with his shitty record and personality...!

And OLD people--they get the 'business' too, and it's perfectly OK to shit on them.

Now, if you are a fat, short, bald, old woman, you are screwed six ways to Sunday.

[Raejeanowl]

32. MADem, You Are Making Me Start To Laugh-Thanks

I mean, sincerely, for the first time on DU in days. My mind followed your post's drift and went to toothless, homely, knock-kneed, pigeon-toed, red-headed, flat-chested...and worse. I didn't make it through the list of absurdities.

In short, you're (we're) all a bunch of...human beings...looking cross-eyed down (or up) our big noses at each other.

[Ken Burch]

48. "if you are a fat, short, bald, old woman, you are screwed six ways to Sunday"

Although that will probably be the next niche genre in adult films.

In other words...

FSBOWILF!

(You just know somebody wants it.)

:sarcasm:

seriously, why do people think it's cool to hate the metabolically challenged? And given that the majority of Americans actually fall into that category, isn't it weird that avordoipoisophobia even exists in this country? Let he who is without sin cast the first Twinkie, I say!

[cgrindley]

78. If you are a man and going bald... shave your head

a thinning hairline does make someone look old and weak, but a shaved head is cool. Especially if you grow a soulpatch or a goatee. People often complain about grooming issues leading to treatment they perceive as being bigotry, but really. People should just pay a bit more attention to their appearance. I'm an ugly short man but I go out of my way to dress attractively and stylishly, I spend some money on an Edwards' quality haircut, and keep my teeth nice and white. It goes a long way. Most people who describe themselves as ugly are ugly by choice. Watch the show "What Not to Wear" once in a while. It's good for hints and tips...

shallow? yeah, but so what. I think that many people revel in an ugly appearance because it gives them something to blame for their social handicaps.

[Bicoastal]

3. As a 5ft 6 man, I sympathize with your shrimp of a husband. nt

[Turn CO Blue]

7. He's a shrimp, but he's MY shrimp! **hugs**

[Raejeanowl]

21. Well, You Know What They Say

About good things coming in small packages.

Oh, hell, nice gifts come in all sizes; they're about what's "just-right" for the recipient.

[rockymountaindem]

4. I'm concerned about that myself, honestly

standing in at a quite modest 5'7'', a fact I've never mentioned around here before. Some people tell me that's not "short", but it doesn't seem that way to me. With that in mind, I used to be both short and overweight, but when I was 16 and a doctor told me he didn't think I'd ever make it to 5'6'', I decided that if there was nothing I could do about being short or tall, I might as well be in good shape. So, even though I'm in way better shape now 5 years later, and a bit taller, being in relatively good physical condition hasn't erased concerns about my stature as much as I'd hoped.

[Turn CO Blue]

8. Well you live in the right place to

keep yourself fit (and there are many more benefits beyond outward appearance to keep yourself in shape - such as fighting off depression, and not being winded walking up the stairs with our short little legs - har de har har!)

Remember that the most attractive quality for dating and relationships is a really good sense of humor.

[rockymountaindem]

13. Sadly, I don't live in CO for most of the year anymore, but I get back as much as I can

As for the sense of humor thing... that's what they tell me, and people say I'm a funny guy, but humor is a lot less tangible than being 6'4'' like some of my friends (one of whom gets more ass than a toilet seat when he puts his mind to it).

[rurallib]

5. There is also quite an aversion to the disabled.

My wife (lingering effects from a stroke at the birth of child #2) was told by my SIL to 'just get over it already' a few years back.

[Turn CO Blue]

6. You're exactly right. I should have mentioned some of these

other conditions that people feel free to deride. At least I don't think many people make as many jokes about the disabled or some people's deformities as they used to, but I know that it exists and is tolerated.

[Snarkoleptic]

9. You are absolutely correct.

It's easy for the intellectually lazy to dislike those who have different physical characteristics.

[Nay]

10. I can certainly vouch for the bigotry against fat ppl of both sexes.

I'm about 50 lbs overweight and female, so you can imagine what's gone on in my life. My weight has gone up and down, but I have never been what you'd call "thin." Mr. Nay doesn't care, so I try not to beat myself up about it. I will say that as you get older, the fat bigotry fades quite a bit, presumably because old women aren't sexy whether they are fat OR thin, so who cares what they weigh!

What irritates me is that the whole American culture, from cars to drive-ins to food ads, drives ppl to eat in certain ways and to not exercise, but it's all OUR fault we're fat. I think it was the woman who wrote "Nickeled and Dimed" who said that the American culture was the ONLY culture that demanded that you act in opposition to what the culture told you. In other words, most cultures try to lead you in the right direction -- not the U.S. It tempts you and then castigates you for giving in to temptation. That can't be psychologically healthy, either for the individual or the society, but what the hell? It sells food, junk, diet aids, and exercise machines. So it's OK.

[CTyankee]

60. Interesting point about foods that "tempt" you! There are millions of $$$ spent in advertising

to make these unhealthy foods look like "fun."

I was curious as to what you think should be done about this. We can't outlaw food commercials, even for foods cooked in such a way that they make people unhealthy.

From my own perspective, here in New Haven we probably have a lot more choices than fast food. So if I want to go out to eat, for instance, I can choose from lots of other options. And the servings come in a variety of portion sizes, so not everything is "supersized." In your community, do you have those choices available?

[unc70]

88. Most of what we "know" about obesity might be wrong

I closely associate with people working with "eating disorders" on all levels, coming initially from the anorexia side. While I am tall and thin (please don't hate me for that :), I totally agree that being over-weight is typically viewed as a personal failing deserving of the shame and guilt of others and needing to be remedied, all reinforced by the marketing of self-help, diet, exercise/fitness, and other industries dependent on this market, both to the individuals and to receive all the money for research, programs, studies, etc. (FYI not much better on the overly thin side either.)

While there are many things that effect what one weighs (genetic, diet, activity), most of which have been around for quite some time and rarely produce the effects widely seen over the last 30 years. There is now a lot of research indicating that at least some (much?) of the recent "obesity epidemic" might really be a classic epidemic cause by viruses, specifically an adenovirus. A lot more on this can be found at http://www.obesityvirus.com which also has links to other relevant sites.

It is possible that a viruses (AD-36 in particular) may be a major cause of the dramtic increase in obesity worldwide over the last 25-30 yearsin humans, other mammals, and birds. Even without this effect, there would still be a problem but a much-different one.

If proves to be the case, it will be another loss for the "moralists" who are always blaming the victims. The obvious comparison would be to the case with gastric ulcers; for decades it was thought caused by diet, smoking, alcohol, stress, and such and best treated with a super-bland diet and eventually including expensive drugs that addressed the symptoms. It took nearly 20 years for research showing that over 90% of it was the result of a bacteria and was quickly "cured" with commonly available antibotics.

Similar resistance by established interests are repeatedly found with mental illnesses, ADD, depression, etc.

[CTyankee]

94. What you are saying is fascinating. Did you see my post down thread? It was about

how my surgery (not to lose weight) resulted in my being forever "thin." I learned that sometimes you have thiness thrust upon you, even when you didn't exactly want it to happen that way (loss of lots of your small intestine, in my case).

I no longer hold any firm ideas about weight gain or loss. For myself, I really don't care. For everyone else, I feel bad and want them to be OK because it is so UNFAIR for them to be held responsible for something they can't be respnsible for. Itisjust not right, IMO...

[unc70]

100. Had not seen before I posted. BTW Southern white male also a target

I did not see your post until after I finished posting. Being overly thin, from anorexia, bullemia, or something else, is also seen as a moral failing, a weak will too easily manipulated by advertising and scenes of high-fashion runway models. The same condition 500 years ago would likely been viewed as a manifestation of great religious piety. Recent research indicates that genetics account for just over half of the causality of A/B.

Most people have a weight "set point" around which their weight remains relatively stable of a long time, varying maybe 5-6 pounds in either direction and usually self-correcting back to this mid point. If you weight suddenly changes in either direction, you need to see a doctor and have tests to determine the reason for these changes. It could be your thyroid, diabetes, the virus mentioned above, other metabolic conditions, liver diseases, or various types of cancers, particular those centered around the abdomen. Don't wait to have it checked; your life may depend on it. If your doctor brushes you off with something like "everybody gains weight as the get older", find another doctor. Yes, most people gain a couple of pounds a year; I have gained 30 pounds in roughly 35 years. If I had gained 15 pounds in a single year, I would be alarmed/condered.

BTW While I have the advantages of being a tall thin white male (also liberal, smart, great personality, good dancer :), nearly any advantage I might have is immediately lost because I am Southern. While this combination of attributes can be of great advantage when dating in my state (NC) and age group 59 +/- (as I was told "Most of the men we meet are Republican A H's"), most people in the US initially expect that we are racist, unsophisticated, poorly educated bigots who use our unearned position to exploit women and minorities. That was a big problem for John Edwards; remember Lawrence O'Donnell implying that he might just be another racist Southern white man who once again had blocked progress of the black man.

With the exception of being Southern, being a tall, thin, white male is to my advantage. I also consider it a responsibility, an obligation to treat everyone fairly, with respect and understanding, and to stand with them when faced with attacks or discrimination by others.

BTW I am really glad when research shows that yet another "moral failing" is not the result of bad parenting, lack of self control, impulsive be behavior, manipulation by marketing, racial or gender stereotypes, the breakdown of family values, the French, rock music, turning away from God, Islamofascist terrorists, illegal aliens, sleeping with our hands under the covers, or any other RW fantasy.

[CTyankee]

106. I left my home state of Texas when I went off to college and never moved back.

I was sick of Southernness. I lost my soft North Texas accent. All of my family members were staunch Texans and they get really ticked off if you up and leave. I know it was held against me.

After JFK was killed, I wouldn't volunteer to people the information that I was born and grew up in Dallas. I was so ashamed.

Now, of course, George W. Bush doesn't exactly make Texans look so great. But at least we had some redeemers: Ann Richards, Molly Ivins, Jim Hightower, Bill Moyers. Good liberals we can point to proudly.

I have the greatest respect for John Edwards and think his NC accent is charming. It's who he is. Same with Bill Clinton and his Arkansas charm.

Liberal southerners are among the most attractive people I know...

[Nay]

109. It's a real dilemma, what to do. First thing that should be done is that

ALL fast food outlets and soda/candy machines need to be removed from all schools. That should def be illegal. During my childhood, it was unheard of to have such things promoted in school -- it was considered bad for kids! Adults railed against the very idea! This is what I mean about society at least trying to reinforce good habits. Now, of course, all the "adults" are into making money, so parents who don't want their kids' schools filled with junk food are shouted down as if they were hippie moonbats.

There are plenty of ways to buy and eat decent food here, of course. There are in most places, unless you are desperately poor or isolated. That's not the point. The point is that if you want the members of a society to act in a certain way (like choosing moderate amounts of healthy foods), the society itself has to demonstrate that in all its facets -- by making sure good food is cheaper than junk food; by encouraging exercise by mandating sidewalks, bike paths, parks every mile or so; a ban on foodstuffs like high-fructose corn syrup and trans fats that have shown to be big contributors to obesity; etc. What this society wants, however, is to sell you junk foods, healthy foods, diet aids, skinny clothes, fat clothes, and on and on. In other words, it makes money by whipsawing its members from one extreme to another. And not just with food and diets.

[Kutjara]

11. You make excellent points.

It sometimes seems to me that humans have a "bigotry" gene. We need to be bigoted or prejudiced about something, and if society "takes away" our traditional sources of hatred (race, nationality, gender), well then we'll make up something else to pour scorn on. Large people, small people, red-haired people: in short, anyone out of the "norm," triggers the Bigot Gene and brings all the hateful speech and action flowing out.

We know we can't say "n*gger" anymore, but "lardass" is OK, "half pint" is OK, so we continue to use those words. It's as if we're a society of four year olds, who can only think in terms of specifics and lack the capacity for formulating general rules. "Don't touch that pot: it's very hot," only applies to the specific pot discussed, not to the general category of pots sitting on stoves. "Don't hate black people," only applies to black people, not to the general category of human beings who might be similarly harmed by bigotry and discrimination. We supposedly know racism is wrong, yet we still tolerate outrageous stereotypes of Asian people on TV. How can any intelligent person not see the contradiction?

As a semi-disabled person who walks with a cane, I get a hell of a lot of blank stares whenever I'm out. When I'm with my wife, who is ten years younger than me but looks even younger, we sometimes get looks of open hostility from people who apparently assume I'm some sort of pedophile. Someone even shouted "dirty old man" after us on one occasion, even though I was 40 and my wife was 30 at the time. I guess they just looked at my cane, my stiff gait, my greying hair, then at my wife, made a snap judgement, then let all the pent-up hate come spewing out.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that bigotry and hate are non-specific. We don't really hate people because they're black or female or short or disabled or fat. We hate them because we have an excuse to. Because they're different and therefore an outsider and therefore safe to hate. We hate because we're human, and hate is what humans do.

[AngryAmish]

66. We have many, many bigotry genes.

Bigotry is so offensive because it is an offense against reason. We are humans and have a mind that should overcome our hard-wiring.

Humans are social animals. Our primate relatives are socially ranked. Likewise we like to socially rank ourselves. That is where putting others down for characteristics comes in.

We like the protection of our pack and seeing differences in other packs probably was a survival advantage when we were not civilized. That is where racism comes in.

Among the many things that make the human mind unique is we put things in categories. Sometimes we make mistakes, Eliminating those mistake, hardwired as they may be, is the goal of civilization.

[PDJane]

12. No jokes from me.

I'm obese, although rather tall for a woman (somewhere around 5'8" or so). I am also disabled, a double whammy...my kneecap seems to have left the body, for the most part. You wouldn't believe the comments I have had in malls and on jobs, some of them absolutely vicious and some just dumb.

I have been asked "do you think you really need to eat that?" Well, no, I probably don't, but I've not asked you if you really need to ask that either.

I had a woman who hinted around my social life for weeks, and finally asked me, "So what do you do for sex?" (That was actually rather amusing; I had figured out that she thought I was a lesbian.) I answered with a shrug and said "Auto-eroticism is cheaper, faster and cleaner, don't you think?" When she finally figured out what I had said, she informed me I was "rude." Pardon me? I'M rude????

I have had it up to my tolerance level ...especially with those whose first words to me are "You need to lose weight." or "You'd be gorgeous if......if you lost weight (anywhere from 50 lbs to 250 lbs (I'd dissappear at that level)), if you wore make-up, if you would cut your hair, if you'd wear brighter colours, if, if, if. Do this, don't do that...don't wear black so much, wear heels (If I'm intimidating in flats, which was the complaint, imagine what three inch heels would do to help the situation), wear make-up, don't wear make-up, why don't you wear a dress, why do you always wear a jacket....and, my favourite, you'd walk faster if you didn't use a cane. Oh. Has it occurred to you that.....oh, hell, never mind.

Yes, I admit to a vile sense of humour. Part of that is self-defense, you know.

[Raejeanowl]

58. I Think I Like You, Jane

Even if it does sound like you hang around with some twisted people.

[PDJane]

71. Thank you!

I will admit to moaning to a shrink that I knew every asshole in the world.

His response? "No, sweetie, that's just vanity. You can't possibly know them all. There are too many of them out there!"

[Name removed]

15. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alarimer]

16. There is all kinds of "look-ism" too

If you are a woman and not "hot" (by whatever standards exist at the time), then you might as well not exist. And I suppose there is some form of that prejudice exists for men as well, although gray hair on them is "distinguished" while for us, it just makes us old.

I've come to the conclusion that basically people suck. I hate people generally and when I hear remarks like those that have been mentioned in this thread, it only affirms my decidedly low opinion of people.

[Turn CO Blue]

44. Yes, I understand that our entire teevee/magazine culture

seems to offer up these beauty ideals, and everyone really seems to have bought it. I love that Dove commercial where ordinary women flaunt their stuff.

There is also another commercial playing now for the Saturn Hybrid that is so moving.

It shows a series of contrasting images...the tagline is
"What if we rethink..."
Beauty (model versus mother and child )
Strength (bodybuilder versus Lance Armstrong)

I freaking love that.


Anyway, some people do suck, the mean ones do, but "humanity" is beautiful.

[distantearlywarning]

18. You are totally correct.

The bias against the overweight is astonishing, even here on DU. It really hurts my feelings to read some of the things that are invariably posted here in any thread about obesity (I'm a size 14 with a metabolic disorder, and I often feel like the whole world, even DU, has decided that I'm a disgusting human who doesn't deserve to live).

Also, my husband is a relatively shorter guy (~5'8"). People don't say stuff to his face or anything like that. But I have heard many women say things like, "I would never date a short guy". Or they put up personal ads asking for men over 5'10". I just feel sorry for them because my husband is a terrific guy - sweet, smart, competent at nearly everything, treats me like a gem - and they would have passed him up just because of something so shallow, that he has no control over. Well, their loss, my gain.

Aaargh. Even writing this post is making me feel hurt and angry. This country is full of looks-obsessed shitheads. :grr:

[Turn CO Blue]

39. **hugs** to you

Listen, I'm between a size 12 or 14 (at only 5'1") and I guess that makes me 40 pounds overweight right now (my weight varies), but I refuse to have that self-defeating tape of "disgusting human" crappola playing in my head.

I pull myself together (dress in colors good for me, fix my hair, play up my attributes) and hold myself up "tall" (har de har har), and know I'm an intelligent, funny, sexy, walking, talking dynamo.

I know how to lose the weight in the correct way (lean protein, good carbs and good fats) and I'm doing it right right now (lost about 12 so far) -- for my heart and arteries and not for appearances sake.

And you're right "This country is full of looks-obsessed shitheads." To that I would add, "Mean people suck."

[sam sarrha]

19. the 'Disabled'... i lost my left hand, I was told i wouldnt be rehired altho there were positions i

could competently fill... TO MY FACE they said, 'it was a company policy because if i hurt my other hand i wouldn't be able to work at all'

i believe the Union will help me out with this.. we will see. i have an IQ of 164, i am a mechanical/systems Savant. i did the work of 3 people before i was hurt, because i create tracking, mechanical systems, i saved them twice my yearly wages just fixing scratches on 1/4 million dollar units and making systems to prevent damage for just 6 months. i am the mellow workaholic, come early leave late, i always compete with myself to do faster, better work more efficiently, use a stop watch, and keep notes.

of the other 15 people on the team only 3 others do their work with pride, 2 absolutely refuse to do anything, 3 others refuse to even acknowledge your existence but do something..all in all, 9 of 15 do only part of their job, 2 do nothing, they always leave something unfinished, and 4 do at least 1/2 the work.

my wife is obese, she has thyroid problems..she used to weigh 96 pounds, she will die early in life after suffering most of her life. people have been abysmally rude to her face.. she is a Buddhist, one of the most loving, compassionate and helpful people i have ever met.

she is a textile pattern maker and technical designer, people at one job were blatantly rude to her, they weren't trained to do their job, just out of collage, skinny snits. they refused to do the pattern part of their job and she was ruining her health doing all their jobs.. recruiters are always calling her for better jobs.. one young girl was in tears about not being able to do her job... my wife walked over and quietly said, "i can teach you to do this at lunch and after work and i can get you a job making $50,000 a year to start., to months later the young woman got a job for more than 50K.. and a week later we left for NC, leaving all the snooty people in a really dark hole, and a business near collapse, she did all she could to save them.
it is the same story nearly every place she has worked.. but she has found a really good place to work now.. just one person screwing everything up, middle management this time.

[Raejeanowl]

28. Lovely World We Live In

I feel for you and your wife, but you both have what it takes, so screw them. You'll each find your well-deserved niche if you don't let it wear you down. Best wishes.

[sam sarrha]

52. i have aspergers syndrome, when i was a kid i was essentially nonverbal, couldnt look at faces,

i totally stressed out to passing out if i had to read out loud, i had acute dyslexia, couldn't pronounce words off paper at all.. but i could draw photographic drawings, build space ships, Spanish galleons and dinosaurs out of tooth picks, paper tape wire, at 9 i dad the largest hand made microscope permanent slide collection, and insect collection, i read at 3, i didn't let anyone know..

if you ever saw the cartoon series Calvin and Hobbs, you got a peak into my world, the bad stuff was only momentary interruptions that pulled me into their world, which at times i curiously observed on my own, i was curious about what other people were doing, but i did, and i still sometimes sometimes , wonder what it is they actually doing. i have absolutely no idea what social interaction is all about, if i did weird things as a child, hand flipping, overt fascination of things my father attacked me verbally or physically, as i said i wasn't always 'conscious' of the real world, so those abusive assaults were interruptions, but i had to keep my eye on things that initiated them,

as a result i dont have really peculiar behavior, i could join Mensa, but i would have to deal with people, no thanks, and i am functionally illiterate, i have good verbal skills, i cant remember numbers, but i can remember the pattern on a phone dial, if someone asks me a phone number i have to look at a phone dial and write the numbers down 2 at a time.. that is embarrassing..

i survive socially because i can do really marvelous art and fix anything, i use that mystique to cover my inabilities, i was a jeweler for 12 years, built avionics flight control circuit boards for the F22 and Delta3 Rocket, i did taxonomy on bacteria at shell research development, i have a fascination with the parts of things.. i always did. 2.6 times more work than anyone else.. OCD does have some benefits.

i have a 97%% in spacial relationships, mechanical perception and abilities... i have always had to make my living doing technical requiring delicate manual dexterity, i no longer have a left hand that works.

i just had the second and last surgery on the hand 4 days ago, 8 inch incision, reattached tendons
, waste of time and pain, it is totally paralyzed. i can not believe they reattached it,what a bungled job. if i had been prepped for a prosthetic hook, i would have been back to work in a couple months, it has been 5 months and i have nothing i can use, a hook would be 1000% more useful, i have no perception of social esthetic's, i dont care about having a hook..i need a tool. all i have done all my life is adapt to traumatic events.. this is not adaptable, my only ace in the hole is gone.

i am seriously thinking if going to Canada next winter ans getting a serious case if frost bite on it. the pain now is debilitating, i take a lot of pain medication. and i have to take care of my wife, who had hip surgery and is going in for another probably this year and my 86 yr old mother..i need a pretty good job to survive. good thing i am a union member, i hope they can help me out.

the really sad part is that there are so many people in worse shape than i am. i consider myself lucky

medicine here is really screwed up..

well thanks for your reply, just wanted to relate it isn't all bad, it is just work'n thru the Karma.

the other people that are rude and mean are just ignorant. they are suffering more unhappiness than i am. and they have no way out, they dont even see the problem. untill they understand the cause of their unhappiness is internal, they will keep blaming others, it is a tragic loop. life time after life time.

sorry about rambling

[Turn CO Blue]

40. Oh, Sam. If I had a Valentine I'd give it to you!!!

Blessings on you and your wife!

[Cabcere]

20. I think mental illnesses are a common target, as well,

at least for some people. :shrug: I was diagnosed with chronic clinical depression at age sixteen (I'm 22 now), and since then I have heard all kinds of horrible and completely untrue things about depression and those who suffer from it. I don't "enjoy" being miserable and depressed (who would, honestly?), and I don't "pop pills" just to get "happy" - I take medication because it helps me to lead a somewhat normal life, and counseling alone just didn't work for me. The ignorance and cruelty - intentional or not - is appalling sometimes, and it really does make me angry. :(

[Raejeanowl]

24. You're Right

There's this tee-hee factor where anyone who's ever suffered something is a permanent space cadet; funny, the statistics suggest far too high an incidence of mental health issues for anyone to get too far above it all.

Must be a whistling in the dark kind of thing-laugh at it so it doesn't get you, or so maybe you can deflect inquiries into your own history. And the continuing stigmatization (geez, folks, this ain't the middle ages!) probably explains why many delay doing something when they know they need it.

By the way, good for you for getting help and support. Continue to hold that head up.

[Cabcere]

35. Thanks

:hug: And you are, unfortunately, exactly right about the stigmatization. It took me several months to even admit to myself that I needed help, and when I finally got up the courage to say something to my dad, he told me to "get a life." Everything turned out OK & I'm much better now, but it wasn't easy in the beginning. :hi: Peace.

[Turn CO Blue]

45. **HUGS **to you! You nailed it using the word "ignorance"

about understanding depression. My mother was bi-polar (I say "was" because nobody gets over it -- she passed away), so I'm familiar with the issues from a bystanders pov - the mania and the great depression. Some people thought she went into these "blue funks" because she felt like pouting or something??!!! Aaaargh.

Take care. Be well. Breathe. Recognize and embrace any moments of joy.

[Jamastiene]

22. Off to the Greatest Page with you.

Well said. Bigotry is nasty in ALL of its forms.

[Turn CO Blue]

41. **blushes** Gee, thanks!

[cbayer]

23. In a post re: Doris Lessing from last night, the ageism, xenophobia & sexism was startling.

And this from people who consider themselves progressive?

[Karenina]

49. That is quite the ongoing orgy, eh?

:freak::wow::freak::wow::freak:

[cbayer]

50. yep, bringing out the worst in some people, but the best in others. nt.

[Kceres]

25. You're right and I've probably done it myself.

Thanks for bringing it up.

[Skittles]

26. I had it out for one of those people on an airplane

he was carrying on about having to "SIT NEXT TO A FAT WOMAN" - so I loudly said I FEEL MORE PITY FOR HER, HAVING TO SIT NEXT TO AN ASSHOLE. This caused other passengers to erupt in cheers. :D

[Raejeanowl]

34. Good For You

I'll remember that the next time I see a similar display.

[Turn CO Blue]

38. I love you for that! Thanks!

[Ellen Forradalom]

83. You kicked his ass!

:thumbsup:

[salinen]

27. T.V. makes it o.k. to hate

T.V. makes fun of being fat, stupid, dirty, anything other than straight, hippies, bald, short, zits, nerdy, and anything else that's not "normal". Fuck them.

[tavalon]

29. I believe you but I've luckily never seen it face to face

One of my hubbies is overweight and the other is 5'5" and I've never heard a word of derision about either one. Never heard a word of derision when I'm walking down the street with me in the middle holding each of their hands, come to think of it. As well, I have a friend who gets called a slut and easy all the time and even when I was in my "kid in a candy store" mode, no one ever leveled that at me. I guess I'm just extraordinarily lucky or I have that Leo air that says, say such things in front of me and suffer the consequences. I really don't know. I'm glad for the people who chose not to say those things to me - it wouldn't have been pretty, for them.

I have had people gingerly tell me that as beautiful as I am, I could have anyone. I quibble with that because I don't think anyone can have just anyone, but I am picky. I just pick based on the content of the soul rather than the height or strength of the abs.

[PurityOfEssence]

30. Then there are the non-religious...

Talk about fair game...

[Jed Dilligan]

31. 6'7" here

As a regular victim of discrimination by airlines, carmakers, clothiers etc. I sympathize with your plight. I'm glad the bias against me is physical rather than emotional.

[Turn CO Blue]

42. ah yes, the opposite problem

I can never find pants where I don't have to cut off 6-10 inches and hem. The sleeves are all too long. I can't buy much off the rack without work (it forced me become quite the amateur seamstess over the years, which I've used to branch out to costumes, etc.)

I'm sure you have a difficult time buying off the rack and have to buy specialty clothes .

In cars and airplanes, most of the time my feet don't touch the floor - hell, that's true for most office chairs.

[pitohui]

33. these are two separate issues

i have no sympathy for an obese person who is sitting in my seat on the airplane, i paid for the seat, and i need to be able to sit there safely without being cramped and having half or more of another person's body crushing into mine -- the obese person sitting not just in his seat but in mind puts me in a life-threatening situation -- DVT (deep vein thrombosis) kills and not just older people, a young woman of only 28 died on a long flight of DVT

when your obesity becomes a threat to MY life, that's when you need to draw a line, i should not have my life and health put at risk because you as a fat person are too cheap to buy the size seat you need (either a first class seat or two coach seats together)

so, yes, obese people should be banned from flying if they don't buy a seat large enough to accommodate them and they refuse to stop overhanging my seat

in any situation other than an airplane, i could have the obese person arrested for assault, even for a sex crime, in the case where the person is deliberately pressing into my breast -- it's only on an airplane where this kind of touching is allowed and airlines mostly don't put a stop to it unless you get kind of nasty and loud in your complaint

it's a health issue, pure and simple -- but there is no nice way to say "fat creep is pressing his entire arm into my tit, can we please put him in jail now?" so, yes, when a woman is being touched and pressed into, and the airline seems to condone it, i guess we do get a little shaky and our voices may seem to tremble with anger -- just as yours might tremble if you'd just been subjected to unwanted sexual touching


my being a midget, on the other hand, is never a threat to the health or safety of anyone else, and it's hard to understand why people find so much entertainment in making fun of me for being short or in trying to push me around because i'm "tiny"

yes, when it's a death cage match between an obese person trying to push me around because i'm small, i'm going to do all that is legally within my powers to protect myself

and if this means embarrassing the obese person by notifying a flight attendant and having them removed for pressing into my body on flight, then too bad, the fat person knew they were fat before they tried to get away with booking a too small seat, they tried to cheap out and game the system at MY expense and they are not owed any respect or courtesy

for my opinion, the federal law should mandate all airline seats be significantly larger and quit playing the game of "no one knows FOR SURE that these small seats are causing DVT and killing people," c'mon, it's as bogus as the tobacco institute pretending that "no one knows FOR SURE that smoking causes lung cancer"

[flvegan]

36. You must be a bucket of laughs on an elevator...or in line at Disney..

or to go to an event...or at the grocery store. Maybe you need a taser. That way any "fat creep" getting in your personal space can get reminded not to.

I'll agree with you that airline seats should be larger. Steerage wasn't a good idea at any point in time.

[pitohui]

37. maybe i do need a taser!

i am a woman, and like any other woman, i won't get on an over-crowded elevator, nor will i get on one with just one unknown male stranger, it's simply common sense

nd i never have occasion to stand in line at disney because i just have better taste than that

truly there is never any other situation where people are allowed to grope and press into me at will and not get their ass arrested

you are not a woman, and you are not a small woman, and you have no idea of the unwanted touching that any woman of my age went through as a child or teen or young adult before we got some teeth in our laws, it's amazing how many perverts are out there who will grab and press and rub if they can get away with it, and no man has the right to say ANYTHING to me about MY experience

it's like a white person telling a black person their experience of racism, my friend, you ain't got a clue what it's like being a "petite" female, your ignorance is just blazing

the airlines seem to be the last place where it's acceptable for unwanted touching to take place, well, guess what, it's NEVER acceptable

[Solon]

57. You are fucking insane...

Have you ever been on a public bus? How about a dance club? Seriously, where the fuck do you get off confusing passive, unintentional touching with outright groping, which is an INTENTIONAL ACT! For Christ's sake! Get a fucking grip. Should I, as a man, have a woman who brushed her boobs against my chest on the bus get arrested for sexual harassment? Think about how stupid your argument sounds.

[Turn CO Blue]

46. Aaaargh. I started to post counter-points, and I just can't. n/t

[GaYellowDawg]

69. I have an idea...

If you're so fucking paranoid about being pressed into, why don't YOU buy two coach seats or a first class ticket? Why should other people buy two seats or first class to accomodate you? Why should you get to be the one to save money? Either shut the fuck up and suffer the discomforts of airplane travel or buy your damn way out of it instead of expecting other people to spend their hard-earned money to accomodate your bullshit.

Oh, and by the way, sitting beside a fat person doesn't promote deep vein thrombosis. It's prolonged immobility. If you're that paranoid about it, get some compression stockings or take a little time and squeeze out into the aisle every flight; that is, if you're not too traumatized at having to brush by that icky fat person. Oh, and try actually informing yourself about these kinds of things instead of believing and propagating that kind of stupid shit.

[treestar]

43. i'll never understand the obsession with thinness

OK, being fat is bad, but why is it THAT bad? Why are people so obsessed? I really don't get it.

Who cares? Really, why make such silly assumptions about the chubby?

It's all in the genes. There's only so much you can do. Thin people can be wrong, vicious, whatever. Why is this so endlessly fascianating to the Amurkan public? Sometimes I think this entire culture is insane.

Who cares how much someone weighs? It takes all types to make up the world. Every culture has thin and fat people. What is the obsession about? Even if they do eat too much, so what? Why is that worse than cheating people, betraying people, and killing people?

[Turn CO Blue]

47. Yep. We should all just try to be well. It's not great to be

so big that it's a huge strain on the heart muscle and arteries/veins -- but as posted by another commenter, the WAY some people stay thin, isn't good for the old ticker either!

I do think we should all change our paradigm and think in terms of being unfit, near-fit or very fit. We should all strive to be in a place where we aren't so winded just going up a few stairs. That involves fitness and has little to do with the scales or clothing sizes.

[Chovexani]

51. K&R

I empathize with the height thing because I'm a 5'9" woman, and just about all my SOs over the years of varying genders have been shorter than me. While "Short Man's Syndrome" does indeed exist, I have to wonder how the well-adjusted short men live in our society WITHOUT such a syndrome, given how they're treated.

My last boyfriend was only an inch shorter than me, and people stared at us like like we were freaks (even when I wasn't dressed like one :P). I constantly got unsolicited "what's a pretty girl like you doing with a midget like that?" types of comments. :puke:

The fact is humans are deeply insecure, narrow-minded and hateful creatures who delight in tearing others down in order to build themselves up.

[mcg]

53. and bigotry against poor people and mentally ill people,

bigotry that Reaganism increased.

If someone has pneumonia we expect people not to blame them.

If someone has something wrong with their brain, they are often blamed, looked down on, reviled.

Someone's homeless? Reaganism declares them guilty without a trail.

We need to rid our country of this scourge of Reaganism.

[CRF450]

54. I'm 5'4", and 21. Most girls my age hardly look at me even though I'm in really good shape.

Yet sometimes I'm approached by a girl around 15**fuck:-(** cause I still look like a 16 year old.

[Turn CO Blue]

55. Here's a hug from an older woman! **hug**

My height (or lack thereof) does seem to make everyone think I'm younger. People don't treat me like a little girl anymore (they did when in my 20s)

[newportdadde]

63. Hang in there man!

As far as looking young I hear you. I went to a business conference last year. The lady who took my airline ticket informed me that she need to see my ID as a person under the age of 18 was not allowed to fly by themselves without permission or something... I'm 30 and I have 4 kids.

Then when I actually got to the conference I had a woman in her late 40s in front of a group of people ask me "Just how old are you?"

[Raejeanowl]

68. Tell You A Secret

My 5'7", 21-year-old daughter has the hots for Davy Jones, formerly of the Monkees (his CURRENT incarnation). And I don't think either Mickey Rooney or Michael J. Fox did so badly in the romance department. Don't despair yet.

[CRF450]

80. The funny thing is...

My brother is 36, and the same height as me. Yet 50% of his head is bald, and some of the hair he has is turning grey, and he's got a bit of facial hair, so he actually looks his age. I wont despair, I know an attractive girl will show up and be interested in me one day. Its happened before:thumbsup:

[Romulox]

56. Class based bigotry is the THE SINGLE MOST accepted bigotry in America.

Can't go to school because of your gender or race? A travesty!

Can't go to school because you can't pay the bill? Tough shit, loser! :sarcasm:

[mcg]

59. Parents rich - go to ivy league school - get good job,

the aristocracy doesn't want a level playing field.

[Ellen Forradalom]

108. Fat has become a proxy for class

because eating healthy and engaging in fitness activities take extra resources--time, money, facilities. It's no accident that Whole Foods costs more than Aldi, or that the fresh fruit and vegetables add up quicker than the starches.

[KharmaTrain]

61. Everyone Has Some Flaw

I knew a drop-dead beautiful blonde model...smart, sexy and she could charm the socks off anyone...and she was one of the loneliness people I knew. She said she was "too perfect"...men were antagonized to ask her for a date, other women constantly berated her or ignored her and she would wish to be "ordinary". The grass always is greener...and those who judges a person on their looks shows the flws in their own character and personal short comings.

I've spent my life around handicapped people...those in our society who were dealth cruel hands; the ultimate outcasts in our society. Many are put in homes...out of sight, out of mind and are constantly faced with obstacles from "normal" people. Be grateful you haven't been given that deal in life.

[newportdadde]

62. I'm short man 5' 7'', it effects the workplace and everyday life.

Take a look at your upper management, most of the males are tall 6'. Most of the women are 'hot'. If I see a short man or an unattractive women in management they almost are always very good because they had to climb out of the pits to get there. If your outspoken then your seen as having a Napoleon complex, much like a women is seen a shrill.

For dating it was always an issue. If a women is taller then you then you can just forget it 99% of the time.. ow and of course you must have a small penis. If you workout then your just compensating for being short.

Even if a woman is on the shorter side they want a tall man. I use to see 5' 2'' women going out with 6'+ men and I wanted to ask that guy "Hey man could you cut me a break and ask out some of these nice 5' 8'' girls that won't give me the time of day" lol. My wife is 5'6'' and she did say that when we dated my height was a bit of a bummer because it limited her shoe choices.

As far as everyday when I encounter another male in office hallway or walking a mall or wherever I'm almost always expected to be the one to move out of the way.. move over to the side. I'm not a small 5' 7'', I'm in decent shape but I'm the one expecting to move because I'm 'smaller'.

I guess this might not happen to women but men when we meet in a hallway almost always one person will be forced to move, sometimes both move which is courteous.. its probably 50/50 at best though. Seriously I've stood my ground before and not moved and literally we will hit shoulders and walk into each other. Happens to my taller friend as well 5' 9'' when encountering larger men. Its not a lack of paying attention either both parties know what is going on.

[Marr]

65. Ha- I know what you're talking about.

I'm 5'6". I started my own business when I got out of college, and had tons of presentations to do for potential clients. I noticed that I started securing a lot more clients when I wore my "tall shoes", and even more if I could finagle a way to never actually stand around any of the other team's decision makers.

I'd arrive to meetings 10-15 minutes early and have one of their assistants show me to the meeting area, and sit down before anyone showed up. Increased my chances about 5 fold.

The girl thing was always frustrating. Being turned down by a 5'1" girl for being too short (it's happened to me more than once) is... confusing to say the least, and a bit dispiriting.

I saw a show where women were shown several men in a lineup, and given some background info on them, then they chose which they found most attractive. The range always went from 'successful short guy' to 'unemployed tall guy', and the women chose the tall guy every time. One in particular was a 5'4" surgeon who spoke 4 languages, and also painted or something. The other guy was 6'1", unemployed, and hadn't even bothered to comb his hair. The women all chose him, lol.

But there you go. I like to think that my height is my defense against hooking up with really shallow women, since they look right past me. Wait-- no, it didn't work on that score, either, come to think of it. I guess it just sucks, haha.

[raccoon]

64. I totally agree,

"There are women and men everywhere who feel the need to demean short men (and women) every chance they get. "

Guess it makes them feel good about themselves?

As a short woman, I've dealt with this. Especially as a child and young adult. Now that I'm middle-aged, I don't hear much about it. There are some advantages to getting older. :-)

[HuskerDU]

67. If a person makes fun of another person in a mean spirited way,

it reflects on the person doing the teasing IMO.

[gollygee]

70. All sorts of types of bigotry are acceptable in our culture

It's deeply ingrained in our culture.

[Ellen Forradalom]

72. As a thin, short person I consider it practically a duty

to take the smallest quarters in the car or plane to allow larger people more space. I feel very badly for very large people who are clearly uncomfortable on planes.

People are bigoted towards the overweight because they can. It's an outlet for their hostilities that hasn't yet been shut down.

[Ellen Forradalom]

73. Don't forget stutterers

My husband has a mild stutter. It has given him a world of grief.

[Orsino]

74. This is how humans jockey for status.

We love status, but we also love tearing down competitors.

[Forrest Greene]

75. The Very Last Acceptable Bigotry Will Be Against

...gentle, quiet, eccentrics who only want to be left alone in peace.

[Lance_Boyle]

77. Oh, go fly your spruce goose, weirdo!

:P

[Forrest Greene]

98. Haw. I Didn't Say Anything About

...collecting urine in jars. Not to mention "Rosebud," a-and that Jane Russell.

[cgrindley]

76. I'm not bigoted against obese people but against obesity

it's a disease. It must be addressed. It must be stamped out. It costs society terribly and will only get worse over time. It should be treated and if obese people are incapable of treating themselves, treatment should be provided to them. Candy coating how we deal with obesity helps no one. Like a Meth addiction, it is disgusting and there's no reason to pretend otherwise. If a person is obese, they should lose the weight.

[PDJane]

81. You talk about obesity as though it were something viral.

It's not contagious, and obesity is not responsible for every ailment in the world.

Am I obese? Yes. Did I start out that way??? No. I started out as a dancer. Between then and now, there has been a pedestrian accident (the taxi that hit me won) when I was pregnant with my child. Now? Well, my joints don't work (partly RSI's and hyperextension injuries), I have fibromyalgia, sarcoidosis, and chronic depression, along with other bits and pieces. I have at least three rsi's, two of which have required surgery. I do exercise, albeit gently, I don't overeat, I do eat lots of fresh fruit and vegetables, don't eat a lot of fat, and stick to olive oil for most things.

I have become a label-reader, and I will tell you that a good portion of obesity in North America has to do with the foods we eat and the way we prepare those foods. Most of the sugar we ingest is in the form of high-fructose corn syrup or beet sugar, and most of that is genetically modified. Bleached white flour is nutritionally useless, icing sugar has corn starch in it to keep it free-flowing and white rice is often coated with talc or corn starch. Soy is not fermented here, and that is the process that makes the stuff truly edible. Restaurant servings will serve at least two if not three people, and much of restaurant food is fried. MSG is all over the place; yeast extract, autolyzed vegetable protein, or hydrolyzed vegetable protein all contain contain monosodium glutamate, and yet they are designed to mislead consumers by avoiding mentioning MSG directly on the label. Even sea salt is processed; real sea salt is NOT WHITE. That process takes out the trace minerals that make sea salt so useful. Boxed cereal is nutritionally deficient, and the things we do to dairy cows are grotesque. Boxed cookies and prepared jams and salad dressings and luncheon meats and sliced cheese are a waste of time and money; too much sugar, too much salt, too much fat, msg, mono and diglicerides, sodium nitrates, nitrites, trans-fats, aspartame, mechanically deboned meat (you don't want to know. If you do, google it.), phage preparations, carmine, carageenan, acesulfame K,cyclamates, diacetyl, and on and on. I have taken to purchasing jams and spreads from a couple of small manufacturers and from Ikea, where the ingreadients list tends to be limited. I don't eat processed meats at all, and use a lot of olive oil for most things.

If we want to "stamp out obesity," starting with changing the way we grow and process foods is the first thing that needs to be done. That requires laws, and the government staff to inspect and enforce those laws. You can't start at the end result and expect to fix things.

[unc70]

101. Much obesity IS probably viral. Possibly contagious.

Infected colonies of mice gain nearly twice the weight of the identical control population fed the same rations. Only difference is their infection with adenovirus-36. I posted about this above. More information can be found at http://www.obesityvirus.com. The particular virus appears to have "jumped" from birds to mammals in the the late 1970's in South Asia, roughly when the dramatic increase in obesity rates began. Antibodies to this virus are also found at high levels in obese horses and dogs.

There are various other enviromental or pathogenic triggers undergoing close scrutiny by current studies. Genetics, diet, exercise, and such are also contributors. The current situation with obesity is similar to the case of gastric/stomach ulcers which we now know are caused by a bacteria and are easily treated with antibotics. It took over 20 years for easily verified treatments to overcome an entrenched industry and the bigotry of health professionals, policy makers, and the general public. It is much the same with nearly each type of mental illness.

FYI The study some months ago about how having fat friends might make you fat (based on the Framingham Study), appears to me to be mostly BS reflective of how they identified the population of "friends". The confounding interplay of the study populations without any way to compenstate statistically makes that study little more than clever hand waving. I don't know how it was ever allowed in the New England Journal of Medicine.

[Ellen Forradalom]

84. In the collective, obesity is a public health issue

When dealing with an individual, never judge. No one loses his or her right to dignity and respect.

[cgrindley]

87. Actually, no.

There are plenty of things that an individual can do that does indeed strip them of his or her right to dignity and respect. For one, respect is earned. For two, dignity is entirely internal.

There is no onus on society to "respect" someone simply for being who and what they are.

[Ellen Forradalom]

89. Actually, yes.

I stand by what I say. Even were I to agree with the notion that are circumstances under which an individual loses the right to respect, obesity is most certainly not one of them.

[cgrindley]

95. No and It depends

again... the default position should be a blank slate of neither respect nor contempt. If someone does something admirable, then respect is in order. If someone does something appalling, then contempt, but no participation trophy. No prize simply for existing. I'm not about to give a person some sort of mental award merely for successfully breathing air. That's a miserable and failed philosophy. People need to earn respect. It isn't a given.


PS if there's a valid medical, physiological reason for obesity, I suppose that sympathy is in order. If there isn't a valid reason, then...

PPS even if there is a valid medical, that is a physiological reason for obesity, having one doesn't presuppose that a person should be respected for it. It simply means that their size is no reason to criticize them.

[Ellen Forradalom]

107. "Their size is no reason to criticize them"

Precisely what I have been saying all along. Respecting another person doesn't mean elevating them to a position of superiority in a social hierarchy. It means treating that person with common decency. Gross lapses in decency have been amply documented in this thread.

[distantearlywarning]

85. Sounds like bigotry to me.

Your use of language gives it away.

When's the last time you heard someone refer to heart disease, cancer, or traffic deaths as a result of non-seatbelt usage as "DISGUSTING"? Or compared any of them to meth addiction?

And yet, these conditions are also all preventable to a greater or lesser degree than obesity. They just don't show on the outside, so their sufferers aren't such easy targets.

My dream is to live in a society where we all have to wear a sign around our necks documenting all our health stats and flaws and all of the different ways in which our behaviors "cost society terribly", right out there in the open for everyone to read. As things currently stand, my "disgustingness" is always visible, and yours isn't until you post on an internet message board.

And just for the record, I wasn't always heavy either. I was quite skinny until developing hypothyroidism at age 25. Thanks for judging me for having an uncontrollable health issue. You don't know shit about me, or my habits, or my eating, or about anyone else you see on the street either. Let me know if you'd like to compare health stats. You might be surprised to find out which one of us is "costing society" more." Every one of you who posts words like "disgusting" on DU about me and others - I wish for you to someday get my disease, or have to take a medication that makes you gain weight, or to suffer an injury that decreases your movement. I really do. Come back after that happens and then you can feel free to spout off all you want about weight and "disgusting" obese people. Asshat.

[cgrindley]

86. Hey... I have IBS and I know a disgusting disease when I see one

yeah. Disease is disgusting. Especially when it is unnecessary. And yes, heart diseases caused by preventable issues such as smoking and poor diet are disgusting. And an addiction to food is no different than an addiction to Meth or alcohol or heroin (and speaking as a former junkie, I'm under no illusions whatsoever about that).

[distantearlywarning]

91. Good thing for you you don't have to wear a big flashing sign above your head

that says, "I HAVE IBS".

Because, as you know, IBS is often exacerbated by diet and stress. So surely the rest of the world would have the right to comment upon your character if you were doing anything to exacerbate your disease. Wouldn't that be fun -getting on an airplane and having someone say, "I don't want to sit next to him! What if he has diarrhea on me or has to get up 12 times during the flight?". How about being in a restaurant and having people walk by and comment contemptously about the fat content of your food or the fact that you are drinking a caffeinated drink?

Lucky for you that you are able to hide your disgusting disease. You get to live your life without stigma, so long as you choose not to reveal it to others around you. Lucky.

By the way, did you read any of the responses in this thread (including mine) about the myriad of causes of obesity? I don't have a food addiction. I have a metabolic disorder. It's a common disorder - my mother has it, and at least 5 other women that I know in my circle of friends. All of them used to be thin and now struggle with weight issues. My mother maintains a normal weight, but is practically anorexic to do it, after being a size 4 her entire life until her thyroid stopped working. None of the hypothyroid people I know are stuffing food in their faces 24-7. But all of them know that people like you look at them on the street and assume there's something wrong with them psychologically, and it hurts inside.

[cgrindley]

93. If only

if you've got something like IBS, everyone in your life is held prisoner by it. I can't sit through a business meeting. I can't sit through a movie. I can't do anything. And of course it physically hurts. Not only that but constantly having cameras stuck up my butt or forced down my throat or radioactive dyes pumped through my body... it is exhausting and miserable. I am the unhappiest of men. And it is a disgusting disease. Utterly and completely disgusting. Horrific and terrible.

so yeah, maybe a typical person on the street can't tell, but everyone else in my life can and does.

We all have our crosses to bear. We should bear them with grace and silence.

[distantearlywarning]

96. I would love to bear my cross with grace and silence.

When will other people let me do so?

Most fat people aren't asking for special treatment. They're asking to be treated the same way people treat "normal" people. In my case, I'd like to be treated the same way people treated me when I was skinny. Like a human being, without any assumptions made about my character before they know me. I don't want to talk about my weight with them or have them feel sorry for me, I just want to be left alone.

By the way, I have IBS too. I know all about IBS. The most pain I have ever been in in my life has been due to IBS, and it has impacted me in the past in ways that are similar to those you describe above. It's a bad thing, and I have sympathy for people who really suffer with no relief. Now I keep mine under control with diet and by constantly monitoring my thyroid medication to make sure that I am receiving the correct dose (it gets really bad if I'm undermedicated, and in fact one of my first symptoms when my meds are off is an increase in IBS symptoms).

But if I had a choice between bad IBS and my weight problem, I'd take the IBS any time, hands down. As shitty (no pun intended) as IBS is, you can still hide it. You don't have to wear that sign around your neck with IBS. People don't assume that you did it to yourself. People on message boards don't call you disgusting because of something you have limited control over. You aren't a total pariah in this society, a less-than-human. They don't make movies and jokes about you. They don't refuse to sit next to you on airplanes or write news articles about how your stigma is catching. You can look yourself in the mirror and still feel ok about yourself, because you're not being fed the message that you are 100% responsible for your disgustingness 24-7. So bring on the IBS.

And notice that at no time in this post did I tell you to just stop eating fatty meals or caffeine or whatever. I didn't blame your disease on you, although there is certainly evidence that lifestyle plays a part in IBS. What does it gain me to blame you for your problems? I doubt that you want to have IBS, so I have no reason to assume that you have deliberately sabotaged yourself when you experience symptoms. I respect you as a human being, and it doesn't gain either of us anything for me to judge you pver something physical.

Please extend the same courtesy to your fellow passengers on this earth who may be struggling with another "disgusting" disease, which may or may not be related to lifestyle.

[cgrindley]

97. I deserve no sympathy

My diet is miserable. I totally call this down on myself. I make a terrible thing much worse through the wretched foods I eat. But since it keeps me reasonably thin, I eat entire boxes of cookies, ribs... all manner of horrible nonsense.

PS the last thing I would do is respect me as a human being.

[VotesForWomen]

79. yes, anti-fat prejudice is blatant and disgraceful, but anti-short men prejudice is really sexist,

IMO, because the belief is that a short man is not really 'manly,' hence there is something undesirable about him, and it doesn't work in reverse, as you mentioned, i.e. that short women are considered extra-desirable because they are more 'womanly.' the clear belief is that tall, i.e. manly, is better.

[PDJane]

82. That's quite true, too............

And frankly, Kucinich is one of the best folks in congress. Samrt, funny, witty, and right on most things....but the US isn't ready for a person who might just change things.

[MadHound]

90. There are social drawbacks about being any size that is outside the norm

I'm 6'5", three standard deviations outside the norm. I've had to pay more for my clothing, deal with seating that is drastically uncomfortable, deal with people who think that an excess in size means a shortage of brains, hear all the "tall jokes" ad nauseum, been told on more than one occasion that my size intimidates people, and yes, been the target of many other over testosteroned males(most of them of normal or below normal height) who wanted to take me down in order to prove their own manhood.

So please, don't assume that those of us who are above average height have it easy, we don't. Since we too are outside the bounds of the norm, we also get to deal with our fair share of bullshit from society.

[Warren Stupidity]

92. About Kucinich's elvin qualities

a) I really like elfs.
b) it isn't his height it is his face.

[TankLV]

99. I didn't know we no longer have any ANTI GAY BIGOTRY! When did this occur?

seems everyone trys too fucking hard to see around the elephant in the room...

gee it couldn't be because obama OVERTLY REPEATEDLY courts the anti-gay bigot vote, could it?

naw......

[Pushed To The Left]

102. I had a bumpersticker on my last car: "If Only Closed Minds Came With Closed Mouths"

When it comes down to it, bigotry and prejudice against any group is just a form of mental laziness. Rather than take the time to judge each individual person and actually use critical thinking, prejudiced people would rather judge entire groups of people.

I wish there were a way that prejudiced people could be ostracized the same way they ostracize others.

[KeineAhnung]

103. Interesting Article

Here is an article from Men's Health about 4 short guys who became successful and/or badass ( ie: the tiny SWAT guy)

http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=guy.wisdom&category=life.lessons&conitem=fc780bc8a25c6110VgnVCM20000012281eac____

[GOPBasher]

104. As a very short man, can I sincerely thank you?

I'm a 5'3'' male, and I sincerely believe this has hurt my career. I have a B.S. in physics and a master's in education (very high GPA's), and I cannot get a job for the life of me. I'm currently working in a factory as a production worker, which is a great job is that's what one wants to do. However, I dreamed of being a teacher and I couldn't get a job. I'm pretty convinced that my height (or lack of it) is a major detriment. I got plenty of interviews, but was always rejected. Before anyone else out there roasts me, I'm not saying it's the only reason in the world. Maybe my references weren't the best, maybe I suck at interviewing, I don't know. But I very much think the poster is right about predjudices against obese people and short men. And very few people really see that or think about it.

Thank you, Turn CO Blue. :-)

[GaYellowDawg]

105. Move to Georgia.

There is a desperate shortage of physics teachers here. I can guarantee you'll get a job.

[Neoma]

110. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I personally haven't heard bigoted remarks against short or obese people. But I'll be sure to watch out for it now.