I got a new flame suit. Let me try it on for ya.... :)

[The Straight Story]

My daughter is home from school today. So I called the school's message system to let them know. I listened to all the instructions (leave my name, her name, teacher's name, reason, etc) and then, just as I was ready to explain it all...I heard the message again in Spanish.

Most of her classmates are of Spanish descent, about 93% of em actually.

But still, that was a few moments of my life I won't get back. Not to mention if you add up all the extra energy used (electric) listening to the same message twice...well, the environment (and therefore myself and family) is suffering because of it.

Pretty much everything YOU do affects me in a negative way.

This was but one example. If you go to the store and don't buy in bulk - well that means you make more trips to the store and send up my gas prices (because you are using more gas).

If you post on DU, or just read my threads here, you are using electricity - which may well come from a coal fired plant. And that means you are polluting the air I breathe (second hand posting).

If you drink Mt Dew, Beer, Wine, etc - that affects me as it takes energy and pollution to make those things. If you drank only tap water it would be better for me.

In the end, the very fact that you are alive is harming me.

When do we just stop and say enough is enough? WHERE do we draw the line on making new laws and regulations?

We are less free now than when this country was founded. Some of us are more free now than then, which is a really good thing - but overall I think we as a whole are losing freedoms.

And the biggest reason is that we keep wanting people to pass more laws to protect us from each other.

You don't want to walk into a smoky bar? Then don't.

You want to wear your seatbelt? Then do.

You don't want to marry someone of the same sex? Then don't - but at least give people the choice to do so.

You don't want an abortion? Then don't have one. But let people have a choice.

Freedom used to mean being able to have choices and doing so based on your own personal preference.

Now it means protecting yourself because the choices others make affect you.

That, to me, is the cost of being free. Sensible laws and regulations for people, not the insane crap we see now. Now it is all about control and seeing each other as the enemy.

We can go to extremes, easily. But we shouldn't. Sensible laws are one thing. Again I wonder, where do we draw the line??

[AndyA]

1. Oh my goodness...where do I begin?

Your post makes so much...sense?

In the DU world of insane posts, suddenly...SANITY!

Thanks for posting! ;)

[file83]

29. Begin by putting this on...

[Webster Green]

2. My mom used to tell me to "mind my own bees wax"..

An awful lot of our problems would be solved if everyone did that one simple thing.

Mom is wise!:-)

[The Straight Story]

3. Yes indeed

You pretty much nailed it right there - "mind my own bees wax"

[Freedomofspeech]

19. You always have the best posts....

thank you.

[The Straight Story]

30. And you always have the best replies

:)

[Lugnut]

8. Absolutely.

Your mom was a smart woman.

[Squatch]

4. "Sensible... ...where do we draw the line??"

That depends on how you define "sensible".

[The Straight Story]

6. Indeed

Where DO we define that and HOW?

[Lugnut]

9. And who gets to define it? n/t

[Squatch]

12. It has already been defined:

it
–pronoun

1. (used to represent an inanimate thing understood, previously mentioned, about to be mentioned, or present in the immediate context): It has whitewall tires and red upholstery. You can't tell a book by its cover.
2. (used to represent a person or animal understood, previously mentioned, or about to be mentioned whose gender is unknown or disregarded): It was the largest ever caught off the Florida coast. Who was it? It was John. The horse had its saddle on.
3. (used to represent a group understood or previously mentioned): The judge told the jury it must decide two issues.
4. (used to represent a concept or abstract idea understood or previously stated): It all started with Adam and Eve. He has been taught to believe it all his life.

[Ano Genitus]

5. Ano Genitus has the prescription.

Smoking: Home, car and the wide-open street should be untouched by smoking laws. Bars and restaurants are more problematic, since there will be lots of people who may need a job and be forced to take one in such places, but are sickened by the smoke. As appealing as it might be to have the old smoky bars again, on balance smoking should probably be prohibited in bars, restaurants and other places of business.

Seat belts: I see nothing wrong with a seat belt law, mainly because it's pretty damn painless to put on your seatbelt, and reducing the number of people flying through windshields will make the world generally a more pleasant place. Some whiners will complain of chafing from seatbelts. I say let them buy bumcream.

Gay marriage: make it as legal as any other kind of marriage. I can't imagine why not.

Abortion: keep it legal and accessible.

Multiple languages on the phone: I think you'll have to suck that one up. Maybe take advantage of it to improve your own Spanish.

There: I've drawn the line!

I am Ano Genitus.

[walldude]

10. Welcome to DU... I agree with everything except the smoking ban

I think private business owners should be allowed to choose whether to allow smoking in their establishments. If people don't like smoke they can eat, drink, or work elsewhere. Government buildings, schools, hospitals are another story but private businesses are just that. Private.

[Ano Genitus]

15. Thanks for the welcome.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning, though. A private business is a public place, so long as the public frequents it. (And if they don't, it's not going to last long as a business.) So if the community determines that there should be a smoking ban, the owner would have to abide by that, the same as they have to abide by any other law. Like, you can't dump shit on the floor of your restaurant just because it's your restaurant. Same sort of thing.

As for telling people they can just work elsewhere, well, that isn't always a choice. I appreciate freedoms and whatnot, but I just think on balance, the progressive thing is to try making life a little easier for afflicted people. Seems kinder to tell the smokers to step outside for a few minutes than to force some poor smoke-sensitive person to work elsewhere.

But we agree on a whole lot more than we disagree on, so again I thank you for the kind welcome.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

13. Welcome! Such logic, such reason...

and you said bumcream. :rofl:

Would you be willing to do us an itty bitty favor and go see what you can do about fixing GDP? :D

[smoogatz]

24. Or, since 93% of the kids are latino, eliminate the English language

message. Simple solutions for simple minds!

[BoneDaddy]

35. Um no

that is not a simple solution.


In this country English (whether you like it or not) is the predominant language. I have no problem with other languages being accomodated but the VAST infrastructure is based in English.

This idea that people need not learn the language of the country they are in is the most absurd, ignorant statement I have ever heard. I say this NOT because I am a xenophobe who has a love it or leave attitude. I say it because it makes practical common sense to learn the language of the country for YOUR BENEFIT ultimately. If I moved to France, I would learn French. If I moved to Mexico, I would do my best to learn Spanish.

It is immature, moronic and plain stupid to think that it would not be smart, socially adept, and pragmatic to not find the best way to navigate and survive in a country that spoke a different language than what you know.

It is time to stop reacting with the opposite of whatever the conservative minds think up just to be adversarial. They come from a racist bigoted view, but what would work best for immigrants to survive is to learn the language for opportunity purposes.

[smoogatz]

38. In a couple of generations, much of the southwest will be majority latino.

Some pockets are already. Should Spanish be the official language there, if that's the case?

[BoneDaddy]

39. No

I think you make accomodations and you place it on an equal basis, but so much of our infrastructure is still based in English. I am against "officializing" any language. I am talking pragmatics. That said, given a large percentage of soutwest America will be speaking Spanish in the future, I think for those English speaking citizens in that part of the US, learning how to speak Spanish is practical as well and makes good sense.

I just do not agree with many of the DU community who, in a knee jerk reaction to the xenophobic conservatives, think that it is ok to simply throw out the English language, because they have associated it with some of the more rabid right wing ideals.

[smoogatz]

41. Reasonable enough.

I was actually kidding in my initial post, btw.

[BoneDaddy]

42. Hehe

It was a reasonable answer to me though. Much of the SW will be predominantly of Latino origin and Spanish speaking.

[smoogatz]

7. Some regulation is good.

If freedom is about choices, I'd like to be able to make choices in the grocery store between GM produce and cloned beef and the old-fashioned, un-fucked-with kind. But short of buying organic, I can't do that because there's no labeling requirement for GM foods. I'd like to be able to pass a world onto my kids that still had ice-caps and rainforests and non-lethal weather and non-acidic oceans and sea levels that hadn't risen catastrophically on my watch, causing unprecedented mass dislocation and famine and disease. I can choose to walk to work and buy a high efficiency furnace, but without regulation, will the rest of humanity get on board? I choose to live in an actual constitutional Republic, one in which elected officials cannot declare themselves above the law, one that doesn't torture its enemies (or the innocent, or children) or spy on its citizens. Could I have that, please, sir? Not without a government that's committed to abiding by its own fucking rules, I can't. We never like regulation when it impinges on our freedom to do whatever he fuck, but not all regulation is bad.

[Stop Cornyn]

16. Nonsense! Your neighbor should have the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to run a pig farm in your suburb.

He should have the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to walk into any bar in America and shit in the ashtray if that's his pleasure. He wants to open a restaurant and increase his profits by saving on his electricity bill by storing his meat in the pantry instead of a refrigerator, that should be his FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

Anyone who says different just wants the government to be his nanny!

[Mountainman]

20. Did you forget the sarcasm smilie?

[Contrary1]

23. "Your neighbor should have the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to run a pig farm in your suburb."

Yep. There was a situation north of Indianapolis where the suburbanites had pretty much surrounded a farm. The owner sought to have his land rezoned, so he could sell it, and move further out. He wasn't trying to make a living from his farm anyway.

The Burbies came out en masse to fight his request, because they liked the country atmosphere. Didn't seem to matter to them that he was there first. He lost his appeal.

So...he decided to try his luck at farming after all. Pigs, pigs, and more pigs. Last I heard, the transplants to the "country" were still bitching about it.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

36. LOL ... good one. ;o)

[Viva_La_Revolution]

11. "Common Sense" seems to be very uncommon recently. nt

Recommended

[canadianbeaver]

14. In Canada ...its press #1 for english....

so once you press 1..all info is in english....if you don't press one...they will start speaking in French...or vise/versa.....

[EFerrari]

17. In our part of the country, Spanish is mandated by treaty.

You'd think a school district would find a better way to implement the law.

I HATE waiting for stupid menus!

[Mountainman]

18. Is there supposed to be a point at which we no longer make laws or rules?

Does society stop evolving? Do things or situation never change at some point?

I see it this way. Some laws protect us from others, some laws protect us from ourselves some laws protect others from us.

We don't need to make frivolous laws but legislating will never end. It is part of living in a community rather than anarchy or chaos.

[Javaman]

21. Meh, freedom is so overrated.

get with the 21st century, SLAVERY IS FREEDOM!

now where did I put my double plus good happy pills?

[Lost-in-FL]

22. Spanish speaking parents also wasted a few moments of their life...

Listening to the message in English. :shrug:

[nam78_two]

25. After 8 years of Bush it is hard to argue that too much regulation is the problem in this country

Unless you are a libertarian that is. This administration has been working on hacking away at our environmental protections, food safety regulations etc. from day 1. At this point (at least with environmental regulations/food safety laws etc.) at least personally I am much more worried about too little regulation rather than too much.

[AlCzervik]

26. you've got that right, anyone who hasn't should read "Bushwhacked, life in George W. Bush's America

[nam78_two]

27. Agree-that is a good book.nt

[DCKit]

32. Ah, but while they're dismantling the regulatory structure...

They're also passing laws that restrict and endanger citizen's rights and privileges.

Corporations are reaping the benefits and the people are being harmed.

[needledriver]

28. You missed one.

You don't want to keep and bear arms? That's fine with me. Just don't tell me that I can't.

[NuttyFluffers]

31. for english, press one; para en espanol, marque el numero dos

i like choice myself. haven't heard a voicemail recently that offered multiple languages that didn't upfront offer choice of language before listing the rest of the options. sorry to hear about your inconvenience. i do wish people were more thoughtful in offering people simple choices to make their day easier.

[taterguy]

33. It's difficult to buy in bulk at the grocery store when you ride your bicycle to get there

:evilgrin:

[LWolf]

34. That's a good question, and one that should always be asked.

Regardless of where we happen to be on the ever-spiraling pendulum of public policy, balancing individual and collective freedoms and responsibilities is a tightrope walk. That's a job that is never over, and must be constantly revisited as we list from one side to the other.

Freedom without responsibility lacks conscience, lacks humanity, and is, in the long run, suicidal. Responsibility without freedom is a denial of the whole point of life: not to live, work, reproduce, suffer, and die, but to love, to learn, to experience life in it's fullest, joys and sorrows, in the time given to us. To reach for the highest human potential: to create beauty and good in the world.

The honest, and best, answer to your question, from my perspective, is this:

"When do we just stop and say enough is enough? WHERE do we draw the line on making new laws and regulations?"

When our choices are harmful to others. Within reason. I could argue both sides of every example you give, which is why the process of finding that balance is continuous.

I believe the conversation is all about smokers, so I'd ask you this, in return:

Are smokers not free to smoke? To smoke outdoors in public, to smoke in their own cars and houses? Isn't asking them to keep indoor places that the general public frequents smoke-free a good compromise? Respecting the health of those who choose not to smoke, while remaining free to smoke outside or in your own space?

I'm not comfortable with the "don't like the smoke, don't go there" argument. First of all, it sounds too much like "my country/party, love it or leave it." Secondly, it ignores the real issue of employees who work in the smokers' environment. Should someone have to choose between a job to pay for housing and food and their health? Or should all workers, smokers or not, have a right to a safe, healthful working environment? Lastly, it reminds me of an era in our history when it was common for businesses to "reserve the right to refuse service."

Not that a public place allowing smoking is refusing service; just refusing service in a healthy environment.

The "don't like it, don't go in" message just reminds me of that attitude. It divides communities and creates "sides."

If all people were responsible, respectful and empathetic to others, courteous, and responsive to individual and community needs, we wouldn't be having this conversation. That's a choice, too: to strive to BE the people that make great communities, or to strive to gratify ourselves before the good of all.

Our choices define us.

[0007]

37. I came upon a new experience yesterday. I called my IP to inquire

about SORBS blocking some e-mailers from my mail. As I called the voice said if this in spanish please press one (1). I was lost!

They gave me a choice, but I don't speak, ching, ching, ching,

[timtom]

40. I haven't read any of the responses yet, but...

I agree with you 100%, point by point.

[LanternWaste]

43. One person's common sense laws...

One person's common sense laws are another person's intrusive, insane abridgment of freedoms. The lines to be drawn are re-examined and re-drawn every day in ways that will accommodate some and disenfranchise others.

When a person says enough is enough, he's speaking from his own experience and world-view which is vastly different than the person next to him. It begs the question-- who is absolutely right on defining "enough"?