I cannot imagine how parents of kids in their senior year in high school

[question everything]

or with just students in colleges must be feeling.

So far this year we had, what, 3, 4 shooting at a college?

[Deja Q]

1. What can be done?

* Some parents say "Don't parent my kids!"
* Others, who may or may not be the parents of the thugs, say "We're too busy holding down 3 jobs and can't get a babysitter or too busy playing crapendo..."
* Schools say "We'll put up metal detectors, but otherwise we won't care about the kids; not even how they are dressed or whom they bully."
* Everyone else, including those in the schools, says "This is tragic, but it's up to the parents."


When does the catch 22 end?

[abluelady]

2. And Don't Forget The Ones Who Say

Everyone should carry a gun and then everyone would be safer.

[slackmaster]

5. Straw Man

Nobody is saying that seriously. NOBODY!

:argh:

[abluelady]

13. I'm Afraid They Are

Check out some of the pro-gun forums. I was reading at georgiapacking.org forums. They are definitely spouting that nonsense. They are attributing the problem to the school being a "gun free zone."

[slackmaster]

19. Unenforced fake gun-free zones are unfortunately targets for crazy people

If you want to make an area free of weapons, you have to put in the kinds of security measures that are used in the secured parts of courthouses, airports, etc.

[abluelady]

20. My Point Was

It wasn't a straw man. There are many folks who truly believe we would have less gun violence if there were more guns.

[slackmaster]

21. Sure, but MY point was that not a single one of them is saying literally

That everyone should be armed.

Many people have religious or moral reasons for not using deadly force. Some are not physically or mentally capable of using a weapon in a reasonably safe manner.

Besides, writers who abuse hyperbole deserve to be taken out and shot.

[abluelady]

24. You've Never Heard That Said Literally?

Wow. I wish I hadn't. I live in the south and there are many folks here who truly do believe that there will be much less crime if everyone is armed.

[benEzra]

25. The pro-gun argument is generally that the 1-2% of people who are licensed to carry...

should not be excluded from carrying on campuses, in churches, etc. as they currently are in most states.

Whether you agree or disagree with that premise, it is not an argument that "everyone should carry a gun."

[abluelady]

26. There are many pro-gun arguments

I'm not saying it is THE arguement. It is just one of many I hear. I recently heard one state is allowing guns in bars as long as the gunholder isn't drinking. Give me a break. I lived in a state that allowed you to shoot someone approaching your car if you "thought" they were a danger. They didn't have to have a weapon on them but you could shoot them. There are all kinds of gun laws and all kinds of gun holders and the bottom line is there is not a damn thing you can do if someone decides to go on a rampage. How many stories are out there that people try to defend themselves, as well they should, and still they end up shot.

[benEzra]

29. The Colorado church shooting was stopped by a CHL holder...

before anyone inside the church could be killed.

Most states do allow carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, as long as you are not drinking. Drinking any amount of alcohol while carrying is usually grounds for revocation of one's license, as it is here in NC.

I'd be interested to know which state you used to live in. I know that Florida's law has been spun by some as allowing you to shoot someone if you "feel threatened," but the actual standard in the Florida law is "reasonable belief of imminent death, serious bodily harm, or forcible felony," same as any other state. Texas may allow you to use lethal force in defense of property, though.

[abluelady]

30. Louisiana

And quite frankly I found it terrifying. I never hesitated approaching a car to ask for directions, but I sure as heck stopped when that law passed.

[benEzra]

33. Louisiana self-defense law...

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78338

§20. Justifiable homicide

A. A homicide is justifiable:

(1) When committed in self-defense by one who reasonably believes that he is in imminent danger of losing his life or receiving great bodily harm and that the killing is necessary to save himself from that danger.

(2) When committed for the purpose of preventing a violent or forcible felony involving danger to life or of great bodily harm by one who reasonably believes that such an offense is about to be committed and that such action is necessary for its prevention. The circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fear of a reasonable person that there would be serious danger to his own life or person if he attempted to prevent the felony without the killing.

(3) When committed against a person whom one reasonably believes to be likely to use any unlawful force against a person present in a dwelling or a place of business, or when committed against a person whom one reasonably believes is attempting to use any unlawful force against a person present in a motor vehicle as defined in R.S. 32:1(40), while committing or attempting to commit a burglary or robbery of such dwelling, business, or motor vehicle.

(4)(a) When committed by a person lawfully inside a dwelling, a place of business, or a motor vehicle as defined in R.S. 32:1(40), against a person who is attempting to make an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, or who has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle, and the person committing the homicide reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the entry or to compel the intruder to leave the premises or motor vehicle.

(b) The provisions of this Paragraph shall not apply when the person committing the homicide is engaged, at the time of the homicide, in the acquisition of, the distribution of, or possession of, with intent to distribute a controlled dangerous substance in violation of the provisions of the Uniform Controlled Dangerous Substances Law.

B. For the purposes of this Section, there shall be a presumption that a person lawfully inside a dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle held a reasonable belief that the use of deadly force was necessary to prevent unlawful entry thereto, or to compel an unlawful intruder to leave the premises or motor vehicle, if both of the following occur:

(1) The person against whom deadly force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcibly entering or had unlawfully and forcibly entered the dwelling, place of business, or motor vehicle.

(2) The person who used deadly force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry was occurring or had occurred.

C. A person who is not engaged in unlawful activity and who is in a place where he or she has a right to be shall have no duty to retreat before using deadly force as provided for in this Section, and may stand his or her ground and meet force with force.

D. No finder of fact shall be permitted to consider the possibility of retreat as a factor in determining whether or not the person who used deadly force had a reasonable belief that deadly force was reasonable and apparently necessary to prevent a violent or forcible felony involving life or great bodily harm or to prevent the unlawful entry.

Added by Acts 1976, No. 655, §1. Amended by Acts 1977, No. 392, §1; Acts 1983, No. 234, §1; Acts 1993, No. 516, §1; Acts 1997, No. 1378, §1; Acts 2003, No. 660, §1; Acts 2006, No. 141, §1.

The standard for self-defense on the street in Louisiana is that of "reasonable belief," same as in Massachusetts, California, etc. except in the case of home invasion or attempted home invasion, business robbery, or carjacking. The presumption of justifiability you speak of would be section B., which makes defense against a presumed carjacker automatically justifiable.

It appears that for that section to apply, you would actually have to "unlawfully and forcibly enter" the car, not just walk up to the window to ask directions. However, the similar Florida law was spun by the repubs at the Brady Campaign as "shoot anybody you feel threatened by," and I suspect they may have done the same in Louisiana. But it looks like your laws weren't that different from those of most other states.

More on self-defense law here, if you're interested.

[abluelady]

34. I Don't Care How It Reads

When I lived there it was a given that No. 1 was the applicable law. If you approached a car and and the driver perceived you were a danger you could be shot. And the drive could claim self defense even if the person approaching the car had no weapon. I lived it and heard it over and over and over.

Do you remember the case in LA when a child who was a foreign exchange student was killed. He "trespassed" on someone's property. The kid didn't fully understand English, had no weapon; I think it was Halloween and the home owner killed him and got off as "self defense."

Self-defense is getting to be an easier and easier "defense."

When you actually live in a state you get different information from the news than what you hear on national news. I live in VA now and I'm sure I'm more innundated on the VA Tech shootings than those who live in other place in the United States.

[question everything]

8. Yes, imagine a scene of several students and adults pulling their variety

of hand guns and starting to shoot in all directions ending up with a major massacre.

[BoneDaddy]

27. Even with the school shootings

a college or high school student has more of a chance of getting struck by lightning than dying by a school shooting. Many in here love to over magnify situations like this to make their political and social arguments.

Totally horrible, sure, but still very unlikely to happen to people.

[Rosemary2205]

15. You know something?

I really, I mean REALLY - like your posts. :)

[L1A1Rocker]

3. Isreal had this problem.

They fixed it. Unfortunatly the U.S. is too wrapped up in P.C. to make real changes that will get results.

[slackmaster]

7. I really don't think the Israeli model would work here

Too much economic disparity, etc.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. What a crazy pic!

[guitar man]

31. "does this rifle make my butt look big?"

:shrug:

[my2sense]

4. Seems students

would be safer just taking classes in a virtual classroom as this nonsense is becoming too common.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. I'd hope most of them wouldn't be worried about it.

Because that would be like worrying about being struck by lightning.

[annabanana]

9. There are thousands of colleges....

That's how I feel. . (2 kids away now)

[BeHereNow]

10. Mine is home on a leave of absence this year- I'm glad.

Have to say, with the accelerated speed at
which this country is falling apart, I am relieved
that she is not so far away from us.

BHN

[blues90]

12. What needs to be done is figure out how this country has

gotten to this point . I know there have always been gangs but they were not armed with guns .

There is a break down in society and alot of this could be contributed to parents working endless hours at jobs , gun control and other forms of fallen family units .

All I had to deal with when going to school were bullies . Or name calling but no one was ever shot .

[JerseygirlCT]

14. Scared to death

But I'm trying not to think about it too much.

[MonkeyFunk]

16. Those kids are far more likely

to die driving to college.

[Freddie Stubbs]

17. You are more likly to die from being struck by lightning than killed

in a college killing spree. The college killing sprees make better TV.

[AlCzervik]

18. i'm way more worried about paying for college.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. I have a child in college

Seems to me she's more at risk by driving to and from her work each day than being caught up in a campus shooting.

I'm not going to worry myself sick over a teeny-tiny chance of something harming my child. I can't really. I don't have the time. I'm too busy worrying about all the other things that statistically actually might happen.

[Zywiec]

23. I cannot imagine how parents of kids in their junior year in high school

deal with drivers licenses?

Um, we have a slight understanding of statistics.

[seabeyond]

28. same way a parent in any school, ..... the odds of it being your kids so very slim

geez... car accidents way before a school shooting and i am not going to stress about that either.

life

[Marrah_G]

32. My daughter is a senior.

We talked about how tragic this was yesterday.

Frankly, no one is safe anywhere. You cannot lock your children up in a padded room because you are afraid they might get hit by lightning.

Yes it is scary, but if you stop, take a breath and think about it rationally you will see how small the chances are of your child being shot at school.

What people should worry about is their children drinking, drugging and driving....THOSE are the true college killers.

[jmg257]

35. I feel helpless - that there is no way I could protect my kids, & that they can not

protect themselves, from violence on school grounds. Its similiar to trying to teach them about strangers and being abducted.

It is a TERRIBLE feeling. I go to see or get them at school almost everyday (they both swim - 1 is a sr, and I have nieces who swim too) and I sit there knowing that if some scumbag came in to the school there is NOTHING that will stop them from doing pretty much what they want.

The security, especially after hours, is a joke - unless there is a MAJOR sports event; and yet by law I can not carry my licensed pistol onto school grounds. I am a former police officer, taught firearms training, have done bodyguard work, and have had a NYS permit for over 20years (background check etc.), but "school grounds" is one of the few places I am denied the means to protect my family.

Why is it thought these laws makes sense? Yes - it MAY give adminstrators an edge in policing unwarranted possession of guns, but THAT would be allowed whether it was state law or not - the law already says you NEED a permit to possess handguns, while someone walking around with long-guns would be obvious. Federal law allows states with background check systems like NY to pass their own laws contrary to the federal "gun free school zone" law, but federal funding is withheld from states who might otherwise do so.

Open campuses like colleges can NEVER police the grounds to ensure scumbags, like we have seen, won't get on with weapons, but they DO effectively disarm the law-abiding - who DO have something to lose if they break the law and so won't typically do so.

I am NOT some paranoid gun-toting ass waiting to explode, or some hero wanna-be waiting to prove I am Dirty-Harry re-incarnate. I am a father who loves his family, who takes the responsibility for our safety (and that of others) serious, who WILL do whatever I can to protect them and their friends - whether I am armed or unarmed. I am also well-aware that shit DOES HAPPEN - terrible things happen to good people through NO fault of their own - because there are troubled & evil people among us.

I have heard the arguments - yes, MAYBE I get taken out 1st, MAYBE I would not be fast enough, MAYBE someone how I would make it worse (???), but I WOULD do what I could - and that COULD BE all the difference between tragedy avoided and another mass killing.

I admit I do not have a solution for these senseless shootings. But I still feel SO helpless that I would be denied the ability to prevent one if there was any chance I could, and that innocent people will die because of that - especially MY kids.