I Need Help.... Dating a Christian Conservative

[Kansas Wyatt]

Don't ask why, because I don't know and it just happened, so leave it at that please. No, I'm not going to be indoctrinated or blinded by faith, I just need some talking points to make.

Okay, I thought I would take a jab and ask how Jesus Christ would be taken by today's Christian Conservatives, since he was a liberal and socialist. Then I got myself into a debate with how Social Security was a liberal ideal, but she says it is a conservative ideal. In short, everything bad is turned around and blamed on the 'Liberal Democrats' and everything good is credited to the Conservatives, even though it is obvious everything that is wrong is really a result of the Conservatives. Then I ended up trying to convince her that liberals do not want to abolish religion, even though she claims that it is being abolished in schools, yada yada yada... Which moved on to the alleged fact that this country was set up for Christians by our founding fathers, and they were all of deep faith.

So can any of you give me some quick points to make my case that everything she is being told is nowhere close to the truth?

[AzDar]

1. First, you stuff a sock in his mouth...

(kidding)

[Cha]

5. It's a

her.

[AzDar]

13. Sorry. First, you stuff a sock in HER mouth....

:rofl:

[Bucky]

118. But it must be a liberal sock.

[liberaldemocrat7]

161. I do not consider any right winger a Christian.

In my view right wingers worship Ayn Rand and her teachings. These right wingers get so twisted they attempt to say that Jesus did not want government to run social programs.

Right wingers do not follow the teachings of Christ. Torquemada perhaps but not Christ.

The relationship will not survive if you differ on politics and debate it heatedly.

If you can keep from discussing politics you may have a remote chance. As I see it right wingers appear far from a model of compassionate people. They may lie to make themselves look compassionate, but just like the two James T Kirks, the energy required to keep up the facade wears off and the fake James T Kirk surfaces.

[Warpy]

15. I would have suggested duct tape across it

Trust me, this relationship won't go far. Either you'll find yourself getting sucked into Fundyland and bolt, or she'll discover you're not going to get sucked into Fundyland and she'll bolt.

She is being propagandized from the pulpit, and since it's religion and religion is not to be questioned, she buys the whole load of horse shit.

You are not going to change her, in other words. If you can deal with the fact that she's just a big fat sucker for political propaganda parading as religion and she can come to terms with the fact that you're not, it will be an achievement of monumental proportions.

Just don't expect it to happen. It usually doesn't.

(of course, you could always go to her church with a mini recorder and catch the preacher red handed and fink him out to the IRS)

[Rosemary2205]

22. Yep.

I wish the OP luck. I really do. But I think you are right.

[okieinpain]

25. absolutely 1000 percent correct.

[NovaNardis]

40. Don't take relationship advice from a message board

for one.

For two, I don't think your relationship is going to go anywhere if you disagree about fundemental things, like politics and religion. While some people might think these are superficial differences, they really aren't. They are deeply held beliefs that people have a right to hold.

Now, the talking point to bring up to your sweetie is the Jefferson Bible. Or the fact that the majority of the Fathers were Masons.

[ray of light]

2. maybe leave a message for storyteller here at du.

storyteller might have advice for you.

[FARAFIELD]

3. Have an Open Mind

Remember she is a Virgin though so that could be fun. Oh and make sure you rent the DVD "saved" and watch it together and let the hilarity begin.

[morningglory]

18. Jesus Camp is a good, scarey dvd. But, I almost guarantee that you

will end up loathing this person. So have fun, but no long-term relationship involving fiduciary intermingling is advised. I have lifetime best friend that I have always tolerated because I grew up with these people and they almost to a 'man' have mental problems and deprived backgrounds, so I always felt sorry for them and overlooked their idiotic comments until they took over the world, and their little pinheaded ministers give them talking points like: "If all the aborted fetuses were alive and working, think how much tax revenue we would have to support social projects." As if an aborted (unwanted) life would turn out well. If you don't want to have a baby, I do not want you to bring a life into this world. It is a tragedy all around.

[SharonAnn]

130. And think how much we would have spent to educate them, provide health care,

build roads, etc. And, how much we would be spendnig on prisons to imprison the increased number of criminals, etc.

[muntrv]

4. The founding fathers said many times that the U.S. is not a Christian nation.

[Trillo]

6. Treaty of Tripoly

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"

Among other places, wikipedia has an article, (of course whose "neutrality" is in question)

[Bucky]

119. The Treaty of Tripoli is a bit oversold on that point. Read the First Amendment instead.

While it reveals the mindset of some of the Founders, coming just a decade or so after the Constitution was ratified, the Treaty of Tripoli is hardly authoritative on the question of just how "Christian" the country was. The complete answer is found in the debates at the Constitutional Convention, which hardly touch on religion at all. When you look at the positive evidence of what goes into a sound, stable, and strong government, according to Madison's notes, you'll see that Christianity wasn't even under discussion during the framing of our present government.

[mzteris]

7. Be ye not unevenly yoked. . .

in other words -

run like hell.

[GoneOffShore]

8. Sounds like you're on losing wicket.

Whatever evidence you give is going to be refuted on the basis of "faith" and "belief".

So, in the immortal words of Dan Savage - DTMFA, because you'll lose. Sorry.:hi:

[MilesColtrane]

9. Drop her like a bad transmission. eom

[GoneOffShore]

You had to say that

:rofl:

You owe me a new keyboard.

[PCIntern]

10. I dated a Republican for more than 5 years...and

I'm embarassed to say how much longer.

Get Out now...

I know I know...

I'm telling you GET OUT NOW! While you can.

...and don't tell me how good the sex is.

Get out...trust me on his one.

[specimenfred1984]

11. It's called "therapy"

It's where people go who are seriously deluded.

[Cha]

12. She sounds basically

brainwashed so maybe get her into a good deprogramming Program?

And good luck!

[zanne]

14. Start running and don't look back.

You are the way you are. She is the way she is. It's not going to change.

[MasonJar]

16. Thomas Jefferson, if anything, was a deist.

[etherealtruth]

17. I was involved in a long term relationship with a Pentecostal Xian

My only suggestion is to expose her to "new" ideas (and historical facts vs. truthiness) with out judgment, introduce her to liberal/progressive folk that do not fit her stereotype ... Don't try to change her ... bring new ideas and new experiences to her ... let her change herself ... and if she doesn't decide whether you can live with her the way she is

[morningglory]

29. My fundy friend is a fellow gardener. I have planted a butterfly garden.

She came over and I told her how interesting Florida butterflies are because between some ice ages "eons" ago South Florida was underwater except for the Lake Wales Ridge down the middle of the state. And whaddya know! Several Southeastern butterfly species EVOLVED into separate Florida species as any island life forms do when isolated from a mainland. Evolved. She just sat there mulling that one with a dark face, like a chimpanzee looking at a can opener.

[etherealtruth]

38. That's the only way to get "them" to change ...

... introduce "new" ideas w/out judgment or confrontation.

Obviously, she considered evolution. Had you confronted about "evolution" you wouldn't have made a dent.

[Hissyspit]

63. That's very good rational advice. She may have just not been given much chance to be exposed to much

of the truth of reality and life.

But I am still inclined toward the "Run Like Hell" advice.

[left is right]

82. This is the right path, if a relationship is desired

One must also remember to never present a new concept in a manner that would cause the fundy to become defensive--fundy won't listen if she has to defend her belief from attacks--real or imagined. Also, as often as possible, use the phrase: "It is impossible to honor God with lies/half-truths/spin." And then very gentlely present the necessafy facts to dilute whatever KoolAid that she has been drinking at the moment.

[judaspriestess]

19. if ya'll have gotten intimate or are close

that is NOT a "Christian". I would drop her real quick regardless. She sounds lame or her lameness will eventually come through to the point that you can't stomach being around her.

edit: typo

[rug]

20. Never mind politics, you ain't getting any.

[gravity]

21. Its unwinnable

I have a couple of conservative friends like that, and we occasionally get into heated arguments.

The problem is that if you use sources to back you up, they counter saying its the liberal media and use Fox News to back them up. Remember the truth has a liberal bias.

Also, you aren't going to win people over putting on the defensive, try subtle conversion tactics.

Actually some of my conservative buddies are really nice people, and are open minded about many things like gays. I just think they are hopelessly clueless about the world around them. It's frustrating as hell.

[mmonk]

23. Don't seek confrontation. If it surfaces, just give your position

and back it up with sources.

Good luck with that.

[noamnety]

24. I have a different quick point to make

(On edit - heh, I see it's the same point everyone else is making, just different than what you asked for.)

As much as I disagree with her views, probably from top to bottom, my point is this.

It's patronizing and offensive for your attitude to be that everything she knows and thinks is inferior to everything you know and think (superior), and you're gonna fix that in her.

It's a fine pursuit in general, but not for a woman you are dating - presumably as an equal.

I married a guy with different religious beliefs than my own, and the reason we are still together is that we had enough respect for each others' values that we can accept each other's views without trying to change them.

You're in a relationship with woman. Do you respect her values?

[Kansas Wyatt]

34. No not trying to fix anything....

Nor do I feel I am superior. I do however am extremely opposed to those who have used religion to re-write history, instead of letting the facts fall where they may. She has also stated to me that an atheist is not an equal to a Christian, because they do not have any moral values. Understand why I am trying to convince her that other views and beliefs are not like what she thinks?

I respect her beliefs and values, and yes I am a Christian also, but just do not announce it to the world.

[Dr.Phool]

45. Check here for a treasure trove of info.

www.infidels.org

But, I'd run like hell. You don't know what you're getting yourself into.

[Hissyspit]

61. I didn't know Satan had male pattern baldness!

(see "Implausibility of Satan" graphic)

I have the mark of the demon lord!!! Oh, noooooo...!

[Hamlette]

67. Christians do not get their morals from the bible

if they did, they would follow everything the bible says (slavery, killing ppl who work on Sunday, etc). They have used reason to figure out which parts of the bible to follow and which to ignore.

All you can do is "live by example" and maybe she'll see that people who are different from her are not monsters.

Of course, most people don't see that.

I'm not going to say run, I admire you for trying to bridge the great divide. I've tried over the years, and failed. I know we need to keep trying but I'm unable to anymore. All I can do is hope that one/some of them see that I live a moral life and am not worthy of the scorn they hear heaped upon me in church.

When it ends, and I assume it will, try to end it on good terms. Remember, you want her to see you as an example of "the other side" and you don't want to give her an excuse to hate you. Voice of experience here.

[Lorien]

115. Good advice

I'm also involved with a Christian conservative at the moment. I'm the first liberal and/ or agnostic he's ever known personally (he's from rural Georgia) and I think he's surprised to discover that I don't have horns OR a tail! We have a lot in common, but or differences are enough that I doubt if he'll be around forever...still,I'm just hoping that knowing me changes his preconceptions about liberals and non Christians for the better. He already mentions my "good heart" and "good soul" fairly frequently, and he now listens without a knee jerk reaction to my occasional political rants (initially he wouldn't) so I think I've presented a decent representation of "the other side" thus far. Often people are locked in a political ideology only because they've never been exposed to anything else. When that happens the right introduction to different ideas CAN actually have an effect on changing a learned political viewpoint.

[GreenEyedLefty]

70. Dear lawd...

<She has also stated to me that an atheist is not an equal to a Christian, because they do not have any moral values.>

That's enough for me. Your lady friend is a piece of work. Good luck with all that.

[SemperEadem]

149. however

I am trying to convince her that other views and beliefs are not like what she thinks

why? Why not let her think what she chooses to think and accept her for that person instead of trying to change her/fix her---by convincing her--to think differently? She already knows what you are trying to get her to think and she's not going to let you do it.

I am a Christian also, but just do not announce it to the world

Her type of christianity is to shout it out to the world and believe what her pastor and other rw-neocons tell her to believe. Yours isn't. There is no reason why you should need to save her from her beliefs anymore than she should try to save you from your beliefs. She will find out how wrong she is on the day she dies.

If you're opposed to those who use their religion to re-write history, then why are you pursuing someone who has no problem with doing just that? She can't be the only woman available.

[hfojvt]

46. that's not very close to the same point

although the conclusion may be the same - 'get out'.

Almost every other poster up to this point is knee-jerk sure that everything she says and believes IS inferior, and none, except perhaps for the one line 'Thomas Jefferson was a deist' and the other one about some treaty, are offering any facts to back themselves up. Thank goodness we aren't, closeminded or anything, like she is.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. Well, lets see what we KNOW about what she says and believes, shall we?

"everything bad is turned around and blamed on the 'Liberal Democrats' and everything good is credited to the Conservatives"

...Hmmm. Nope, taking issue with that statement would clearly be an example of anti-Christian bigotry.

"she claims that it (religion) is being abolished in schools"

Oh, my. Who in their right mind would persecute a Christian by challenging that perfectly simple, straightforward sentence? I mean, you know, if you were one of those ACLU whackjobs who actually agreed that mandatory Christian Prayer in Public Schools was unconstitutional, sure, you might. But seeing as we all agree that Prayer in Schools should be left up to the majority to decide, and little atheist kids should just suck it up or maybe try praying for forgiveness (because we know that atheists are really just morally defective... just like gays) then I don't see how anyone could take issue with a clearheaded statement like "religion is being abolished in schools".

"that this country was set up for Christians by our founding fathers, and they were all of deep faith."

Again, what kind of crazy-ass bigot would dare to challenge a statement like, "This country was set up for Christians"? Why must you people be so intolerant of the folks who just want to parade around shouting at the top of their lungs that this country is FOR CHRISTIANS, DAMMIT and, all you Jews, Hindus, Atheists, Buddhists and the like can just convert or fuck the hell off, because did I mention that THIS COUNTRY IS FOR CHRISTIANS? What kind of insane hatred of people's personal values drives you to make these unwarranted, mean-spirited attacks on folks who merely want to keep this nation nice and Christian--- as the founding fathers so obviously intended? (Particularly with all religious tests for citizenship and office, along with the numerous mentions of God and Jesus in the Constitution)

Why, why, why all the bigotry and intolerance of this nice lady's views?




...oh, yeah. And :sarcasm:

[hfojvt]

125. and substituting strawmen and sarcasm for actual arguments

is not a sign of a closed mind either.
Plus, you agreed with her that religion is being (or has been) abolished in schools. You just disagree with her about whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

"Nope, taking issue with that statement would clearly be an example of anti-Christian bigotry."

It's not about 'taking issue'. It's about being unwilling to discuss things and immediately concluding - "she's a hate-filled lunatic who will never change her mind". Well, how can anybody avoid changing their mind when faced with a fact-filled and reasoned argument like that?

[Warren DeMontague]

167. No. "Abolished" implies that it belongs there in the first place.

"Abolished" implies that public schools are the natural and rightful haunting grounds of organized religious Christian Worship--- what with the serious, drastic church shortage we have in this country. :eyes:

I'm not saying he shouldn't discuss things with her.. That's lwfern's argument. Your point upthread, presumably, is that "we" are as "closeminded"(sic) as we apparently accuse the person referenced in the OP of being, because we take issue with the statements she has made.

Well, you're damn right I take issue with those statements. I think, as a non-Christian, someone saying "This Country was MADE for Christians" sounds just as fucking bigoted as someone saying "This Country was MADE for White People" would sound to someone who isn't white.

You'll excuse me if I don't twist myself into crazy contortions trying to display my "tolerance and understanding" for that line of reasoning.

[Warren DeMontague]

121. So he should just keep his mouth shut when she blathers about "religion being taken out of schools"

Here's a question:

If the OP was female, and the gooney-eyed Jesus S.O. was male, would you make this exact same argument based on these exact same facts?

[noamnety]

122. If you don't respect each others values

and feel it's your place to try to convert the person you're in a relationship with - not just on a minor issue or two two, but feeling the need to change their entire world view because everything they've ever been taught is a lie, then you aren't treating the other person as an equal.

When we had our mandatory marriage counseling with the partner's pastor, the pastor did a great job laying out that if either of us went into the marriage secretly thinking we were gonna convert the other person, we needed to get over ourselvs in a hurry cause it wasn't gonna happen. That ran both ways.

If the genders were reversed, the one thing that would be different is that it wouldn't fall into a traditional socialized gendered scenario of the man assuming the role of the dominant one, assuming the woman is subordinate in some way, even to the degree that he feels he should be able to get the woman to eventually submit to his world view. "If I think these thoughts, so should she."

[Warren DeMontague]

124. "If the genders were reversed, the one thing that would be different is..."

So, then, your answer is "No".

:eyes:

edit: I agree about not basing a relationship on the idea that you can "change" someone else's beliefs or worldview. Mutual respect -intellectual, philosophical, etc.- is obviously a necessary foundation for any kind of successful marriage or long-term commitment.

But my point above is that you are predicating your assumptions about the dynamics of this relationship and this exchange on the fact that the OP has a Y Chromosome and the person who is spouting idiotic religious right nonsense ("This Country Was Made For Christians") does not.

[noamnety]

129. Not exactly

The edit, I agree on.

The second point you made, about assumptions, relates to how we are socialized within this culture - for men to be dominant, women to be submissive.

I'm not saying he HAS fallen into that gender dynamic. I'm suggesting that he should recognize he is dangerously close to it, and saying that as a socialized pattern, it's often automatic for those of us who haven't examined our own roles in perpetuating those dynamics, and suggesting that the pattern itself is destructive and should be avoided. Consider it a cautionary tale, rather than an assumption about his existing relationship.

I'm not sure if I just wasn't clear on that, or there's a part of it you disagree with.

1) In our culture, we are socialized to accept men as dominant, women as submissive
2) This is harmful to women
3) We should avoid behaving in stereotypical ways that harm women

[Warren DeMontague]

133. So it's not okay for him to try to re-educate his Sig. Other (because he's male)

But it's okay for you to try to re-educate HIM.

[noamnety]

134. Can you explain how you got:

this: it's okay for you to try to re-educate HIM.

from this: I married a guy with different religious beliefs than my own, and the reason we are still together is that we had enough respect for each others' values that we can accept each other's views without trying to change them.

?

[Warren DeMontague]

144. I didn't get it from that. I got it from these:

"I'm suggesting that he should recognize he is dangerously close to it, and saying that as a socialized pattern, it's often automatic for those of us who haven't examined our own roles in perpetuating those dynamics, and suggesting that the pattern itself is destructive and should be avoided."

and

1) In our culture, we are socialized to accept men as dominant, women as submissive
2) This is harmful to women
3) We should avoid behaving in stereotypical ways that harm women

See, in my opinion, the individual referenced in the OP is preaching the gospel according to Bob Jones University, whereas you are preaching the gospel according to the Smith College Womens Studies Department. That's all well and good, and certainly your prerogative-- however, one should not expect to pass pieces of opinion or dogma, like "religion is being abolished from our schools" or "you are dangerously close to a destructive Gender Dynamic" off as statements about objective reality, and then demand some kind of immunity from rebuttal or critique of those statements.

[noamnety]

146. If there is a particular one of those 3 numbered statements

that you disagree with, I'd be happy to debate those statements.

I'm not, however, interested in your views on the Smith College Womens Studies Department.

[Warren DeMontague]

162. Hmmmm, Musta hit a nerve with that one.

Yeah, I know someone who spent a year at that place. Took her 2&1/2 years of deprogramming at UC Santa Cruz before she even started to speak understandable English again.

As for the numbered statements. They're so ridiculously generalized, It's tough for me to find a "there" to disagree with. Sort of like saying "dogs are great" or "sports are fun"... Well, those things may be true in some cases, from a certain perspective.

1) In our culture, we are socialized to accept men as dominant, women as submissive
"We"? Define "dominant". Define "submissive". Define "socialized". And where is "our culture"? Can you point to it on a map?

2) This is harmful to women
What is? How?

3) We should avoid behaving in stereotypical ways that harm women
This statement is as near to a meaningless, generalized, feel-good blob of a sentence as I've ever seen. Perhaps you can make a list of these "stereotypical ways of behaving" coupled with the ways that these living stereotypes harm women, so "We" can figure out what, precisely, you're talking about, here.

But what I really "Disagree" with isn't so much the numbered nonsense outlined above, as it is a worldview in which one is seemingly completely incapable of observing ANY male-female interaction, no matter the individuals involved, details, or the context, without viewing it through the lens of "stereotypical patriarchal male oppression". That's why I asked if reversing the genders would make a difference, to hopefully provoke some thought on this. If you didn't know the genders involved, and only knew the details provided, there's no way you would have projected onto it this additional drama of the "stereotypical", harmful, controlling male partner trying to jimmy with the head of his programmed-by-the-patriarchy-to-be-submissive girlfriend.

The only person wedded to their stereotypes here is you. It's ridiculous, pure and simple.

[hfojvt]

148. the HIM in this case

is the OP not your SO.

Maybe ID thinks you are planning a long-term relationship with the OP? I, for one, am already jealous. :evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

165. Good eye. I didn't even catch that.

I thought it was clear, but in the future I should try to be more specific.

[Richard D]

26. Been there, done that. Best advice:

Run away! Run away! Run Away!!1111 (OK, have sex first if you must, but don't think it'll go anywhere or that she will change.)

[WI_DEM]

141. Sex? she is a Christian conservative will she have premarital sex?

[Richard D]

143. ya never know . . .

. . . guilt can be a powerful aphrodisiac.

[hijinx87]

27. spirited debate is hard to come by

some of the most interesting ladies that I have ever
dated were conservatives.

she isn't from pluto, she is just confused.

FIX HER.

[hfojvt]

28. I would not blame everything wrong on conservatives

I mean, 600,000 rapes a year is wrong, and those are not all conservatives. I would talk less about history than about current policies. Bush has clearly lied about his tax cuts. Does she approve of that - being lied to? Is it okay, because 'they all lie'? What about the deficit?

Truthfully, I am not sure where to begin, but I think a perspective of 'she's all wrong and you are all right' is not the best way to approach a dialogue. But, then again, I was raised in 'the faith' and have been watching the Coral Ridge Ministry hour too.

[Kansas Wyatt]

43. Sorry I did not mean to make it sound like that

She is convinced that Social Security and all other liberal safety nets (socialism) and laws that benefit Americans, are Conservative Ideals only. That is what I referred to her being wrong about and me being right.

[hfojvt]

47. You could argue in a sense

and I think Michael Harrington has done so, that FDR's programs were conservative. Harrington called them 'Fordism' and a way to avoid socialism, but I am not clear on how either of you are defining 'laws that benefit Americans'. Everyone has different ideas on what those are. Republicans have certainly not worked to expand or strengthen our social safety nets over the last 30 years.

[TN al]

69. I know what you mean

I knew a conservative christian girl once who took offense when I told her Jesus was a liberal. I mean she was REALLY offended. I don't think she could have been more offended if I had told her that He was a homosexual mass murderer who coveted his neighbors wife. Good luck with this, you're gonna need it.

[left is right]

92. Of course, God is a liberal--He is soft on crime

Look who His spokesmen were--Moses, a murderer; David an adulterer/murderer; Paul a serial killer. He was a feminist, God condemned David for adultery--not Bathsheba, in fact that particular passage seems to imply that Bathsheba was the innocent victim of sexual harassment. Jesus was gentle with women, he spoke with the woman at the well and he allowed the unnamed woman with the perfume to show her affection and gratitude in a manner that was clearly unheard of in His day-in both cases he broke the taboos that kept women as second class citizen, but that also applied to Mary Magdalene, Mary (Martha's sister) the woman caught in adultery and the woman who had female problems for 20 years (she wasn't even supposed to show herself in mixed company.) Jesus advocated feeding the poor, and in fact, did so in a rather spectacular way by feeding 5000 at one time (that might also be construed as believing in magical thinking). He believed in socialized medicine--he healed all those who asked it of him. And he drove the establishment crazy--that is why they conspired to kill him. And if none of the above convinces you that Jesus is a liberal--the very fact that he was assassinated should tell you--think JFK, RFK, MLK, and Paul Wellstone (maybe)

[SemperEadem]

152. I wonder what would have happened if you told her he was socialist

the whole neighborhood would have been obliterated.

[zulchzulu]

30. Just agree with him, do your deal and get the hell out of there

Mind her, blind her, sneak up behind her, act like a dummy until you finally unwind her...


Whatever...the guy sounds like a loser...

[Mr Rabble]

31. Founding fathers, huh? Here you go:

Let's see what the founding fathers thought about the separation of Church and state...

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, has been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but practiced it on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servile crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

James Madison

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other sects?" -- James Madison, _A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of VA, 1795

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- James Madison,_A_Memorial_ and_Remonstrance, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."--James Madison, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN pp 237-238

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the TOTAL SEPARATION OF THE CHURCH FROM THE STATE."--James Madison

Thomas Paine

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -- Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason_

"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."--Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."--Thomas Paine, _Excerpts_from_The_Age_of_Reason:_Selected_Writings_of_Thomas_ Paine_, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."--Thomas Paine, _The_Age_of_Reason

"The adulterous connection between church and state."--Thomas Paine, from _The_Age_of_Reason_

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."--Thomas Paine, _The_Rights_of_Man_, 1791, ed P.S. Foner, 1945

"Here it is that the religion of Deism is superior to the Christian Religion. It is free from all those invented and torturing articles that shock our reason or injure our humanity, and with which the Christian religion abounds. Its creed is pure, and sublimely simple. It believes in God, and there it rests."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"As priest craft was always the enemy of knowledge, because priest craft supports itself by keeping people in delusion and ignorance, it was consistent with its policy to make the acquisition of knowledge a real sin."--Thomas Paine, _Of_The_Religion_of_Deism_Compared_With_the_Christian_Religion_

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, James A. Haught

misc.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."--First Amendment to the U.S.A. Constitution

"One of the embarrassing problems for the early nineteenth-century champions of the Christian faith was that not one of the first six Presidents of the United States was an orthodox Christian."--The Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1968, p. 420

[hfojvt]

53. you only have, what 6 founding fathers there

and wasn't it Franklin who suggested prayer at the Constitutional Convention? Further, I remember a quote from his autobiography where he stated that he considered churches to be a good thing and that he always contributed to their founding, and that he never doubted the basic tenets of religion.

Interesting too that James Madison was arguing against a state religion for Virginia in 1795. The Constitution was ratified in 1787. At that time Virginia had a state religion and it was only later that they disestablished it.

I just saw on TV yesterday somebody claim that only about 20 of the 270+ members of the Constitutional convention were not Christians. Also they mentioned that after the nation's capitol was burned down by the British that President Madison called for a national day of prayer and also a national day of prayer and fasting. He seems to have believe in the church but also believed that it would be corrupted by political power.
Your facts there are cherry-picked.

[Mr Rabble]

68. How are your comments helpful to the OP?

If you want to argue the merits of religion, what not do so in the religion forum?

The OP asked for opinions and suggestions about HIS situation, not yours.

[hfojvt]

76. I am not arguing the merits of religion

I am arguing the proposition "the founding fathers were Christians". Fundies can make a strong case that they were. I do not think that case is disproven by cherry picking quotes even if that may support what the OP believes.

[kestrel91316]

32. I dated a RWer for 5 1/2 years. It eventually didn't work out. He simply

did not respect my views (I sincerely tried to respect his) and got nastier and nastier about politics over time. He was less religious than my cats, so that wasn't a problem, but the blind acceptance of everything Rush said really bothered me.

My only regret is that I WASTED all that time with him. He tried to pass himself off as a moderate Republican in the beginning, to woo me, but he couldn't keep up the act after a while.............

Good luck. I can't imagine your situation being anything but frustrating and heartbreaking in the end.

[Hissyspit]

65. 5 1/2 years!

5 1/2 years that a compassionate, well-informed person went without your companionship (assuming you could find someone like that in your situation).

As for me, I'd rather be alone.

Don't mean to sound judgmental about your choices, just wanted to put some relative context into the picture.

[kestrel91316]

80. Well, alone gets old after a while. That probably explains my lapse in

judgement with that particular relationship............

[Rosa Luxemburg]

33. I worked with someone like that

I guess it's different working with someone rather than being in a relationship? However, the conversation was very strained, small talk = weather.

[BlooInBloo]

35. Phew - I didn't realize they made people hot enough to make up for all that.

[Rosemary2205]

37. I'm ashamed to say I bust out laughing at your post.

Thanks, I needed a giggle too.

[BlooInBloo]

52. :)

[jazzjunkysue]

150. I never saw the moran pic before. Thanks. Loved it. HUGH! n/t.

[cali]

36. Does she have a sense of humor?

This isn't advice, just an observation. One of my close friends is a fundie, but she's able to laugh at stuff. I've often said to he that if Pat Robertson is heaven bound, and Gandhi is headed for hell, I'll go with Gandhi, and she cracks up because she knows that people like robertson are full of it- even though she does believe that robertson will go to heaven and Gandhi to hell. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is if you can laugh at some of your beliefs, you may have a chance.

[Ninja Jordan]

39. She must be HOT.

[Jacobin]

41. I went thru that with someone a few years ago

I understand that attraction doesn't take these things into account. I fell for her.

All I can tell you is that it ended very very badly and you should run away as fast as you can.

Unless perhaps you would like to join him in harassing people going into abortion clinics, cheering on nutjobs that shoot doctors, and on and on and on.

[The Straight Story]

42. The situation is not really all that bleak, it is a matter of perspective

the key thing here is to listen to hers and attempt to understand it and put yourself into her shoes and try to it see it from her point of view.

Many people see themselves as victims of something or other. And in this case it is pretty much the same.

People grew up in a America where you could pray in school, have christmas breaks and plays, play dodge ball, smoke in the teachers' lounge, have a manger scene out in front of the city hall, etc. They also remember a time when crime was not as bad, people seemed more content, yada yada yada - at least from THEIR perspective.

Today's America is fucked up in some ways. And her world (or the ones her parents grew up in) has not only changed but been attacked relentlessly as bigoted, evil, wrong, the cause of all ills in the world, etc and so on.

People tend to get defensive when their group is attacked and instead of giving into the attacks and trying to understand them, they lash out as a group and defend - even if the attack is logical and well founded in some ways. If you argue it, you may be considered a hater or a bigot.

The thing to do is not get overly invested in discussing the past - just say, 'yeah there were good and bad people on all sides of things (and there were)' but what happened to make things like X today'?

Show her how Jesus felt about the poor and downtrodden, and how liberals today are looking out for those same folks and rw'ers are trying to thwart helping them - discuss how in the end times the bible itself says many will fall away from the true faith and embrace the false faith (whore of babylon and such) - then you get her to thinking, perhaps, that today's christians are not the ones she remembers from earlier days and how the ones that stayed decent shifted to the liberal party to keep the good works alive - and the misled christians have sided with the money changers in the temple.

Jesus and his followers were a minority, and his true followers still are.

[BlackVelvet04]

86. Great post!

I would only add that you might both want to read two books by Phillip Yancey.....The Jesus I Never Knew and What's so Amazing About Grace.

[hijinx87]

44. what does she look like?

hotness covers a multitude of sins.

[Bronyraurus]

48. I've done that

We dated for several years and it fell apart because we were too far apart on the issue of... religion.

Good luck though.

[yellowcanine]

49. Well the SS claim is a no brainer. It was an FDR program, FDR was a favorite

conservative whipping boy and they all but branded him a communist for the New Deal programs including SS. Your girl friend needs to learn some history.

Aso remind her that the prayer in schools decision was made by the Warren Court. Warren was appointed by a Republican president. As for the founders, most were deists if they were anything at all. It is doubtful if any of them were "Christians" of the literalist evangelical form that passes for Christianity today. Thomas Jefferson made his own New Testament by cutting out the parts he disagreed with.

[johnaries]

50. RUN! The relationship is doomed. nt.

[immoderate]

51. If the sex is good, keep the conversation light.

Find other people to debate with.

If she brings it up -- present her with the right information, lots of ideas in this thread. Keep your expectations real.

--IMM

[Madspirit]

54. Sorry

I could never date someone who is Evil. I could never date someone who doesn't have my values. To me, this is no different than if you had posted...."how can I date someone in the Klan?" No difference...not even a little tiny wee bit different.

Lee

[Hissyspit]

55. Christian Right is neither Christian nor right. n/t

[hfojvt]

72. not very nuanced then - is it black or white?

Christian conservatives read, write, vote, and protest. The KKK burns crosses, engages in arson, violence, murder, etc. You don't see a huge difference there? A grassroots Christian conservative is neither Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, George Will or Rush Limbaugh. Nor are they likely to be Timothy McVeigh or Dennis BTK Rader.

[Madspirit]

77. I don't agree

He didn't say "Christian moderate". He said "Christian Conservative". I see no difference between them and the Klan. If you think there is one, go to Ann Coulter's forum and read the lunatics.

I stand by what I said. If he had said "Christian Moderate" my response MIGHT have been different.
Lee

[hfojvt]

81. It puzzles me that any Christian, conservative or moderate

would hang out at a Coulter forum. Then again, the local Republican ladies seem to think she is cool. They donated a copy of "Treason" to the local library and had "How to talk to a liberal" in their county headquarters. I still find that puzzling.

I have been friends with a few CCs in the past, and they struck me as very decent people. This was, however, well before Bush and Coulter and Limbaugh. You cannot expect to get to know a person on-line, especially if they are in a circle-jerk echo chamber. So I take a forum like that with a grain of salt.

[Madspirit]

83. How About

How about that I live in Texas and I'm surrounded by the assholes.

How about that I'm a lesbian and an atheist and so I have no love lost for these little nazis?

How about that I am a second generation atheist and my family was tormented by "good" Christians, LITERALLY because my father was outspoken?

How about that I think ALL the bad in the world is caused by one flavor fundie or another?

Is that hands on enough?

I could NEVER be with someone who had values so opposed to my own.
Lee

[hfojvt]

98. I was an outspoken atheist as well in college

and we argued all the time, my fundy friends and I.
But that was Minnesota, so perhaps fundies raised in a liberal environment.

Yet even in Texas, I cannot believe there are not variations in fundies.

[Madspirit]

106. I was under the impression..

I was under the impression that "fundamentalism" means belief in the literal interpretation of that nasty little book of theirs.

My father was not in college, thus my entire family being tormented and tortured by nasty little christians and we didn't just live in Texas...Navy family...(yes, there are atheists in foxholes) and fundies everywhere...(we were stationed everywhere)...are just alike, (the meanest most murderous bastards on the planet)...by the definition of the word I am using...

I'm 52 and fully actualized as far as what I think, just btw...in case you're tired of pissing in the wind because you will not change my view about those people. I KNOW what they did to my family. I see what fundamentalists of every stripe do to this planet, every single frakking day.
Lee

[SemperEadem]

155. they also read, write, vote and protest

plus they call themselves the Christian Knights of the KKK. If you polled them at the scene of a lynching, they would tell you that they believe themselves to be God-fearing, going to heaven, grass-roots, salt of the earth Christians. One group is certainly not mutually exclusive from the other.

[Ian David]

56. Tell him he's retarded and that you him herpes, and then leave.

Nobody needs to deal with that shit.

[porphyrian]

57. You can't reason with irrational beliefs. If it wears you out, don't try.

Faith and emotion aren't changed by being rational, for the most part.

[leftofthedial]

58. sounds like an idiot

[saskatoon]

59. DUMP HER

REPEAT 10 times

[saskatoon]

60. DUMP HER

Repeat 10 times

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

62. Any one of those points is easily refuted by any book or article. For example,

FDR starting Social Security and Republicans bitterly opposed for decades.

I'm sorry but I agree with the other posters that this person sounds like someone either not very intelligent or willfully ignorant. Either way, not promising.

If you stick with her, get used to frustration.

[TN al]

64. Why on Earth would you want talking points?

It's a relationship not a debate. And just where do you think it is going to go. If it is to go anywhere beyond superficiality then you are either going to change to her point of view, she is going to change to yours, or you are both going to be miserable with each other. I can't see anyone with liberal values dumping them to be with a woman. What brings you to this board is what makes you you. And if you meet women with the expectation that you can change them into something that is perfect then you are new at the dating game. She is what she is and it doesn't matter how good looking she is she is still what she is and you are what you are. If it was me, I couldn't respect the intelligence of a woman who makes the claims that you say she does.

[pitohui]

66. run, forest, run

no good can come of this, why does everyone have to make the mistake of dating a fundy for themselves?

it is no use offering good "talking points" because these people are crazy, they are not susceptible to reason, they are mentally defective which is why they are so easily brainwashed by bullshit in the first place

in the end, things go better in life if you pair up with someone who has a brain

if it's just casual sex, don't talk, just do the friends w. benefits, if this is leading somewhere get out while you still can

it doesn't really matter what she thinks when it is proven that she is incapable of thinking

[blue cat]

71. My 2 cents

Just accept her and let her have her own opinions if you want to keep the relationship. Don't be anyone but yourself though. Sounds like it will be a difficult relationship. Right now I'm interested someone who is middle of the road, voted for Kerry, and just doesn't pay attention to politics. I'm OK with that as long as he isn't against my beliefs.

[DKRC]

73. Great advice from my GGrandma

"The worse thing a woman can do is take the wrong man and try to make him right."

This goes for both of you. Trying to change each other is only going to lead to misery down the road.
Be nice, be polite, but be gone. Pronto.

[RiverStone]

132. Your GGrandma was right!

I don't think it is sound practice to TRY and change anybody.

Particularly when it comes to religion and even more so if that person is your partner, GF, wife...

For any real insight to stick, his GF will need to come to the conclusion that her views are misguided - that she has been brainwashed or indoctrinated NOT of her own choosing. But that is a process that she must walk on her own when or if/ever she chooses.

[GreenPartyVoter]

74. Try some of these articles:

Modern Day pharasaism: http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=106&Itemid=31&limit=1&limitstart=1

The religious right vs. the spiritual left: http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&Itemid=29

Editing to add: I am married to a religious and political conservative so I know the difficulty you are in. :)

[kurth]

75. Good sex conquers all

temporarily.

[Rosemary2205]

95. Except a "real" christian conservative isn't having sex outside marriage.

Well, unless they are a TV preacher or something. :)

[cap]

123. this is getting a little nosy and please forgive me...

but I have a point to make. Are you guys having sex or planning to have sex? Is your significant other a virgin or planning to be one until you are married?

If you are engaging in behavior that ultimately risks having a child produced, what are you planning to do?

Abortion? Contraception? Well, you are just violating the conservative precept of abstinence.

What will you do if the contraception fails? You know... that uh-oh moment.

Put the kid up for adoption? Well... whose going to pay for those social services? The taxpayer? There is a period of time the kid is a ward of the state. There's no hue and cry to ensure adequate funding for social services by conservatives. So you're going to make a mistake and have the taxpayers pay for it.

If the kid is handicapped or a minority, good luck seeing that the kid is adopted at all. So who's going to pay for a lifetime in the system? I dont hear about any conservatives pressuring these parents to take care of their own.

Get married? Good luck with the shotgun marriage. And if the marriage doesnt work out, like most of these dont, I hope child support is not an issue.

The personal is political.

I am being a bit hard on you, I know. So please forgive me. I just wanted to make a point.

[Swamp Rat]

78. "eject! eject!"

jus' kidding! :D

[karlrschneider]

79. The crucial thing is

Does she give decent BJs?

:evilgrin:

[SoCalDem]

84. People who disagree on fundamentally core issues, will never "fit"

Could SHE change your core beliefs? 'nuff said

[Jonathan50]

85. It probably won't work since they seem to have an answer for everything but:

The parable of the Good Samaritan.

You have to understand that to Jews of the Christ's time Samaritans were so evil that a devout Jew such as a priest or a Levite would go a very long way out of his way to avoid passing through Samaria.

Luke 10:
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"

26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."


Good luck and check back with us and tell us how it all worked.

[shadowknows69]

87. I have no words sorry

Good luck with that. Sincerely.

[judaspriestess]

88. how could someone be a Christian Conservative

and have PRE-MARITAL sex? this is a fucking SIN (no pun intended)!!!! If you are going to talk the talk, walk the walk.

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Religion is being "abolished" in Schools? I guess there's a church shortage, huh?

Yeah. Just not enough available churches in this country, and time in the week- organized religion MUST have the public schools and the daytime hours during the week in which to get in the requisite amount of God-Honoring?

[jazzjunkysue]

151. As a teacher, I abolish 2, maybe 4 churches a day.

In a good week, I can pretty much bankrupt an entire diocese, if the right kids are out sick.

But the snow days do have a way of slowing me down, and a few churches are still standing. But give me time. I'll get em all!

[Selatius]

90. You're going to have a very difficult time, Wyatt. I hope you have a lot of time to burn b/c

even though I'm not a prophet and cannot see the future, I can tell the odds of you changing her or of her changing you are not very good.

[dysfunctional press]

91. my suggestion-

anal sex and then dump her.

[0rganism]

93. first of all, you gotta decide if you're in this for the long haul

If not, stop wasting your precious time, both yours and your girlfriend's. Just say, "We disagree fundamentally about certain basic matters politically, I don't want to bother changing your mind, and I'd appreciate you not trying to change mine when we're together." Make whatever it is you wish of the relationship, set a goal of enjoying one-another's company, and continue on with the rest of your life.

If you are in this long-term -- and, given the nature of hardline Christians, she probably thinks you are -- then you may as well make education a priority. First, since it's apparent that she doesn't know what a liberal is, you might want to help her with that.

Since you're looking for short explanations, I recommend going over the FAQs at this site:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/tenets.htm

Pay particular attention to the materials regarding consequences of income inequality. A primary downfall of conservative political philosophy is that it reinforces these circumstances in a most un-Christian way. If you plan to make political inroads with her, do so through her Christianity rather than in spite of it. Make her aware of Christ's liberal ethics, as expressed in the beattitudes. Do "bible studies" from the sermon on the mount, instead of the letters of Paul. Etcetera.

Long-term intimate relationships between people with intense differences can work, but you will both be changed in the process -- of necessity, really, since it is the nature of intimacy to bring us closer to one-another, and those issues which intimacy cannot transcend become the barriers that eventually decouple otherwise-committed partners. An unwillingness to compromise at the right times will spell certain defeat. That might mean you don't argue with her dittohead dad at family get-togethers, for instance.

Above all, it is important to understand that we are only together on this planet for a short time. Consider carefully how much of that short time you really wish to share with this person. Let your efforts be proportional to your inclinations.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

94. Run. n/t

[michaz]

96. You have 2 choices...

Don't discuss it at all or shut up and listen and if you don't agree then say it and stay away from that topic all together. If you really like her give it a chance just stay away from that topic of conversation for a bit.

[PerfectSage]

97. I'm in the run like hell camp, but if your that attracted to her...here's my solution

She needs to be resocialized. hehe If you have read anything about attitudes; the conclusion is that we're unconsciously influenced by our surroundings. So how do you use that knowledge?

If she says something absurd, you look her in the eye: smile then laugh or or say something like 'darling don't be absurd'. And don't break eye contact. Let her break eye contact. Then tell her your opinion. Then you can discuss it with her and if she says something absurd repeat and rinse.

Letting her break eye contact is unconscious submissive behavior on her part, so it should unconsciously influence her into changing her attitudes. Smiling while maintaining eye contact is friendly and non threatening eye contact.

Have fun trying to figure out how to brainwash someone.

edit after reading the entire thread. Remember, all value systems have value.

[noamnety]

102. WTF

Letting her break eye contact is unconscious submissive behavior on her part

If you have to resort to manipulating women into being submissive through alpha male bullshit, you have bigger personal problems than dating a conservative.

[PerfectSage]

109. Hehe

How many 'Bush is an idiot' arguements did you have even before he became President? How many 'invading Iraq is a dumb idea that's going to turn into Viet Nam2' arguements' did you have during the runup to the invasion of Iraq?

At some point you wonder 'what makes these people tick', 'why can't they see what I can plainly see' and 'how can I kick there ass in arguements'.

[Nimrod2005]

126. ROFL...

[ConservativeDemocrat]

142. What kind of conservative?

That's the question you need to ask her.

Is she a social conservative, who believes the government should be used to enforce moral values?
Is she a small government conservative, who believes the government should get out of people's lives?
Is she a "ownership society" conservative, who believes that rich people are largely responsible for their own success, and therefore deserve to have different standards applied to them?
Is she a trraditional anti-radical-change conservative, who believes changes to society should be applied slowly, and reversed if their promised benefits turn out to be a mirage?
Is she an isolationist conservative, who believes the U.S. should confine itself to its own business, we're not responsible for anything that goes on outside our borders, and that our chief foreign policy should be to keep foreigners (who seem to hate us), out of the U.S.?
Is she a neo-conservative, who believes that the U.S. government should be responsible for all the worlds problems, and that we have the right and responsibility to remake the world to our will, by force if necessary?

Asking questions will get her to think. Thinking is good.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

p.s. It is my experience that most young women who describe themselves as "Christian Conservative" are the anti-feminist kind. They desperately want children, but are also kind of afraid of it, and so are looking for a man to keep them in a submissive 50's housewife sort of role. Fun, if that's your thing.

[kath]

99. Some info on the Founding Fathers and religion:

Some people today assert that the United States government came from Christian foundations. They argue that our political system represents a Christian ideal form of government and that Jefferson, Madison, et al, had simply expressed Christian values while framing the Constitution. If this proved true, then we should have a wealth of evidence to support it, yet just the opposite proves the case.

Although, indeed, many of America's colonial statesmen practiced Christianity, our most influential Founding Fathers broke away from traditional religious thinking. The ideas of the Great Enlightenment that began in Europe had begun to sever the chains of monarchical theocracy. These heretical European ideas spread throughout early America. Instead of relying on faith, people began to use reason and science as their guide. The humanistic philosophical writers of the Enlightenment, such as Locke, Rousseau, and Voltaire, had greatly influenced our Founding Fathers and Isaac Newton's mechanical and mathematical foundations served as a grounding post for their scientific reasoning.

A few Christian fundamentalists attempt to convince us to return to the Christianity of early America, yet according to the historian, Robert T. Handy, "No more than 10 percent-- probably less-- of Americans in 1800 were members of congregations."

The Founding Fathers, also, rarely practiced Christian orthodoxy. Although they supported the free exercise of any religion, they understood the dangers of religion. Most of them believed in deism and attended Freemasonry lodges. According to John J. Robinson, "Freemasonry had been a powerful force for religious freedom." Freemasons took seriously the principle that men should worship according to their own conscious. Masonry welcomed anyone from any religion or non-religion, as long as they believed in a Supreme Being. Washington, Franklin, Hancock, Hamilton, Lafayette, and many others accepted Freemasonry.

The Constitution reflects our founders views of a secular government, protecting the freedom of any belief or unbelief. The historian, Robert Middlekauff, observed, "the idea that the Constitution expressed a moral view seems absurd. There were no genuine evangelicals in the Convention, and there were no heated declarations of Christian piety."

much more at this site:
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

other good sites:
http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa070202a.htm (good question-and-answer format to help counter the RW bullshit)


The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians http://skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id9.html

Our Godless Constitution
The Nation: The Founding Fathers And Religion http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/04/opinion/main671823.shtml

Very good info, from a school of theology **affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention**:

from the intro:
"Many well-meaning Christians argue that the United States was founded by Christian men on Christian principles. Although well-intentioned, such sentiment is unfounded. The men who lead the United States in its revolution against England, who wrote the Declaration of Independence and put together the Constitution were not Christians by any stretch of the imagination.
Why do some Christians imagine these men are Christians? Besides a desperate desire that it should be so, in a selective examination of their writings, one can discover positive statements about God and/or Christianity. However, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that "the fool says in his heart, there is no God." Our founding fathers were not fools. But the Bible also says "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and tremble."
Merely believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian.
Perhaps, to start, it might be beneficial to remind ourselves of what a Christian might be: it is a person who has acknowledged his or her sinfulness, responded in faith to the person of Jesus Christ as the only one who can redeem him, and by so doing been given the Holy Spirit." MUCH MORE. (including a link to the piece below -- David Barton is one of the most prominent RW fundie liars arguing that this is a "Christian nation")

http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm

Critique of David Barton's "America's Godly Heritage"
This article is a production of the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs. Please copy and distribute the article. However, the information contained in this article cannot be modified without the express written permission of the Baptist Joint Committee. If this article is transmitted or duplicated, it must include this message.
HOMEPUBLICATIONS
BAPTIST JOINT COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC AFFAIRS
[e-mail] 6/18/1996
David Barton, in his taped presentation called America's Godly Heritage, peddles the proposition that America is a "Christian Nation," legally and historically. He also asserts that the principle of church-state separation, while not in the Constitution, has systematically been used to rule religion out of the public arena, particularly the public school system. This is not a new argument, but Barton is especially slick in his presentation. His presentation has just enough ring of truth to make him credible to many people. It is, however, laced with exaggerations, half- truths, and misstatements of fact. His citation to supporting research is scant at best and at times non-existent.
This booklet contains a short critique of some of the major points that Mr. Barton raises. {more)

http://candst.tripod.com/bjcpa1.htm

[tabasco]

100. Must be some good tang, bro.

I personally can't handle the head cases.

Social Security a conservative idea? Does she think FDR was a conservative?

I've met some fairly nice people like this but it's futile to make them change.

[Breeze54]

101. I feel bad for you.

How were you duped? :shrug:

[Kansas Wyatt]

103. Thank you all for your input

First of all, neither of us can figure out how the hell we ended up together, and not just with the political / religion issues. All we know is that we really enjoy each other a lot and do have a lot of other things in common. In a weird way, it is like we are long lost friends or have kindred spirits. She knows that she will never change my way of thinking and refuses to even try to change my views. She is against those within the church who are false prophets and says she doesn't buy into all of that, but that is where I have noticed some of her views appear like political propaganda from the pulpit and have tried to get her to see a different view. We do not argue about it, and she never gets upset by anything I say. It is always on a teasing or joking level, and both of us refuse to let it get to either of us. She thinks I am confused about political things, like I think she is confused.

No, I was never going to dump her or run from her, and she probably would not be considered a 'hot babe' if that were the only thing being looked at. Yes, the intimacy is very good and a very good fit, which means I know how to push those buttons.

So again, thank you all very much for your input, advice, and the material you provided. I greatly appreciate it.

[GoneOffShore]

104. Sounds like you've made your bed, so to speak, so

Bonne chance.

As others have said - don't get sucked in and change your core beliefs.

[Labors of Hercules]

105. If you are kindred spirits...

Then her conservativism is probably only a reflection of her culture and upbringing, and is not true to her individual personality.

My dearest friend was very much the same, a Nazarene born and raised in an authoritarian household. And after 3 years of friendship, one day when I went to visit her and her God awful parents, all the well of her democratic soul just tore out of that conservative wrapping and let loose at the dinner table... It was truly an amazing thing to witness.

Hang in there... if you really are soul mates, She'll break out sooner or later.

[NuttyFluffers]

113. sounds like a karmic relationship

you won't leave because you feel compelled to stay. why? can't explain it, except the old "but we have things in common, and we make each other smile!" well, it is beyond logic and better sense, so might as well enjoy the ride -- oh and there will be pain, oh yes, much pain -- but if you come to accept what you're getting into you'll go with the flow. well, even if you end up on each other's nerves, think of it as paying back debt (and that goes both ways for screaming and bickering). best of luck! actually, scratch that. enjoy the ride!

[Pushed To The Left]

166. If that's the case, then it sounds like things are going well!

The main thing is that you two are happy, get along well, and respect eachother's views even when you disagree. :thumbsup: :toast:

[eagler]

107. the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle

some in the far left have their own problems with delusion also.

[gr8dane_daddy]

108. Dated one myself...

broke it off when she admitted that she was a fan of both limpballs and weiner savage.

IMHO, it won't work.

[Rob H.]

110. Run. Run fast, run far.

I was in a similar situation myself, once. It ended badly.

[Edweird]

111. Don't even try. Just be a good example and hope she gets the idea.

Otherwise you are doomed. Good Luck.

[Arugula Latte]

112. Dump and run. What's the point? n/t

[Seabiscuit]

114. BE AFRAID. BE VERY AFRAID.

Seriously, dude, with so many fish in the sea this is the best you can come up with???

[Bucky]

116. Tell her you forgive her for being wrong. This will drive her insane.

You can still dates her once the asylum believes it's finally safe for her to go out for day trips.

[tjwash]

117. Been there, done that. It isn't gonna work out.

But hey, give it a shot. It's going through things like that in our lives that make us so damn interesting as individuals.

But beware-she is either going you expect you to convert to her way of thinking, or as your OP is indicating, you are going to expect her to convert to your way of thinking. It's inevitable. Either way one is eventually going to decide that it isn't worth it.

[Nimrod2005]

127. Dude, there is no there THERE...Just put your pants back on and leave.

[LSK]

128. listen to thom hartmann for a week and you will have tons to argue with

But why torture yourself dating her?

[Catherine Vincent]

131. Dump that wingnut.

You'll be better off. :)

[smoogatz]

137. Yep.

I know I'm old and cranky, but I've got better things to do with my time than trying to educate some dumbass fundie about basic historical fact. Unless she's, you know, hot.


Snrk.

[smoogatz]

135. She thinks Social Security is a "conservative ideal"?

She's aware that it started under FDR, right? A four-term progressive/socialist Democrat with a compliant Congress at his beck and call? Or is she a typical "conservative" in that she's ignorant even of recent history?

As for the founders being people of "deep faith"--you might mention the fact that Jefferson and Franklin, two of the principal architects of the Constitution, were Deists, a far cry from today's evangleical Christians, by whom they would have been horrified, and that Jefferson actually "edited" his personal Bible by snipping all of the supernatural bits (like the miracles of Christ, for instance) out of the New Testament because he found them silly. And you might mention the fact that if the Founders intended to make the U.S. a Christian nation, they surely went about it ass-backwards. How else can you explain the fact that God, Christ and Christianity appear nowhere in our founding document--and "religion" is only mentioned once, as a negative (as in, you can't create a state religion)? I swear to God, this idiotic fundie argument about the founders being Christians in the modern sense may be the dumbest, most twisted form of historical revisionism ever invented.

So, what--is she really hot in the sack? I had a fundie girlfriend for two years, and she was a total freak in every way you can think of. Fun, if you could deal with the towering storms of guilt while you were trying to smoke your postcoital cigarette.

[BurtWorm]

136. Yes, you do need help.

;)

[LanternWaste]

138. At one point in my life, I dated an 3rd-party atheist...

At one point in my life, I dated an 3rd-party (political) atheist (religious). We had fun, we went out and had the "dinner& movies" nights. We went to parties. We went to jazz concerts (for me) and trendy-pop concerts (for her).

All in all, we had a pretty good time because both she and I were civil to each other. She didn't tell me that was worshiping an "imaginary cloud-god" to validate herself, and I didn't tell her she was going to hell to validate myself-- because (let's be honest here)-- both of those are pretty rude statements.

If you both show respect for each other, everything else will fall into place. If you do not, then I would bet money that religion and politics will be only the most obvious of many, many fights you two will have.

[CJCRANE]

139. Be firm in your opinions

but when you get to an impasse change the subject to something more fun or make a joke out of your disagreements.

My experience is that if you are firm in your opinions eventually sensible people will come round to your way of thinking if the facts bear you out. They might say something like "well, I've always thought Bush was an idiot" (when of course you know d*amn well that they used to worship the ground he walked on - but let it slide and have a wry smile to yourself).

[WI_DEM]

140. If you have enough in common with this lady and can stand spirited debates then go for it

if not you should consider moving on.

[in_cog_ni_to]

145. 2 words....

DUMP HER!!!!! OK, 3 words...NOW!

[Balbus]

147. Well, first of all, if you need to come to a message board

to help you win your side of the argument, maybe you should start questioning your own convictions :shrug:

Secondly, if you decide to try to have a relationship with this person, you really need to start thinking on your own. If you like her and have fun being in her company, who the fuck cares what other people think? Enjoy yourself.

[SemperEadem]

156. well said

[mnhtnbb]

153. Don't ask why because you don't know and it just happened, so leave it at that.

Not a good way to start a relationship. You ought to know why you're attracted to her.

You also ought to know it's not going to work to try to change her.

[EndElectoral]

154. I've been thinking hard about this. There is only one solution. Turn and run away as fast as you can

[jazzjunkysue]

157. 3500+ views. And they say sex doesn't sell. Wow.

Since I'm in here, my 2 cents. If she's that rigid, it's only a matter of time, that the rigidity will be turned on you, and you'll be on her hit list.

I think you're both in it because it can't work. No possibility of permanence.

Find someone sane. Really.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

158. Anyone who thinks Social Security is a conservative idea

and "doesn't want to be confused by facts" is too stupid and/or brainwashed to date. Sorry if that insults your girlfriend, but it's true.

You have a black-and-white thinker there, and not a very bright one.

Was she homeschooled by fundie parents? You could try giving her the book Lies My Teacher Told Me, which is a lot less threatening looking than Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States (ew! Lots of pages! Small print! No pictures!) but covers much of the same ground.

If she really doesn't want to read it, offer to read one of her books (if she reads books) in exchange for her reading one of your books.

If she can't even do that, ask yourself, "She's attractive to me, but is she THATattractive?"

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

159. If You Really Like Her, Then I'd Probably Look To Avoid The Topics That You Readily Know You Don't

see eye to eye on. I would recommend to both of you to not try and change each other and just keep the conversations civil, and avoid the provocative topical conversations whenever possible since there's a good chance it will just turn to stubborn argument. I say this because it doesn't sound like you want a debate buddy to argue politics with. Sounds to me like you want a girl to care about who cares about you, and if you found that then great. But if you truly like her even while knowing her political or deductive flaws, then you should still truly accept her for who she is; flaws and all.

So I wouldn't invest too much time preparing some big list of talking points to refute her with, as I can almost guarantee you that such strategy will do nothing more than derail whatever relationship you have. Instead, enjoy her for the things you enjoy about her, and just try and fit in a couple of liberal awareness points benignly when you can, or just every now and then just have her a little at a time exposed to the truth such as watching Olbermann every now and then etc. But do so slowly and over time maybe she'll start to wake up. But if you truly like her and her opposite politics don't scare you away, then I'd highly recommend against building up talking points with a strategy of being able to fling them out whenever some topic arises. Doing so will almost undoubtedly lead to back and forth stubborn points being made with neither of you bending and eventually animosity. It doesn't sound like that's what you want, so I'd say steer clear where possible, expose her a little at a time to truth hoping that over the long term she'll 'come to' on her own, and don't look to change her quickly or expect her to just all of a sudden abandon all she believes to be true just cause you say otherwise. It may take time and it may get frustrating to you sometimes to wonder how she believes what she does, but based on your caring for her I'm sure she has many other positives about her as well to offset the flaws.

So I wish you the best of luck and hope it works out. But just remember; if you truly care about her and want a healthy go forward relationship, you probably don't want to be constantly ready for a "gonna get ya to see the light" type debate. If you don't care if the relationship goes forward but want to have a political opponent at your disposal to debate passionately with, then you could always do that too. But it sounds like ya want the former.

[flyarm]

160. stop immediately!!!...if you value sanity..stop!!

this ailment can be cured!!

there must be a rehab somewhere!!

fly

[jazzjunkysue]

163. Welcome to Republican Rehab

(light and airy piano music)

"six years ago you thought your friends were honest, decent, christian republicans. but a lot of things have been nagging at you:
that war isn't what they said it was
and if they cared so much about security why'd they expose a c.i.a. agent?
then a bunch of them got caught in a lobbying scandal,
one of them went to jail for bribery,
another is being investigated for insider trading,
the vice president shot a guy,
the president may be spying on you,
and a bunch of their cronies lost new orleans.

wake up. you married into the mob.

call republican rehab. we'll give you a new identity and relocate you and your family to an undisclosed location out of the mobbed-up g.o.p. suburbs of dallas and arizona and into safe, innocent, liberal new york city.
call republican rehab because those people around you really are goons."

randi rhodes show march 14, 2006
http://www.whiterosesociety.org/Rhodes.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x664514

[ncteechur]

164. Yeah, I have to say break up with her. You will not change her and

in the end you will wind up compromising your own values to keep the peace. Why do I know this? Because repubs do not understand peace. They are incapble of seeing the greater good. You will be expected to change. Get out now.