Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

[kpete]

Dumb and Dumber: Are Americans Hostile to Knowledge?

By PATRICIA COHEN
Published: February 14, 2008

............

T. J. Jackson Lears, a cultural historian who edits the quarterly review Raritan, said, “The tendency to this sort of lamentation is perennial in American history,” adding that in periods “when political problems seem intractable or somehow frozen, there is a turn toward cultural issues.”

But now, Ms. Jacoby said, something different is happening: anti-intellectualism (the attitude that “too much learning can be a dangerous thing”) and anti-rationalism (“the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion”) have fused in a particularly insidious way.

Not only are citizens ignorant about essential scientific, civic and cultural knowledge, she said, but they also don’t think it matters.

She pointed to a 2006 National Geographic poll that found nearly half of 18- to 24-year-olds don’t think it is necessary or important to know where countries in the news are located. So more than three years into the Iraq war, only 23 percent of those with some college could locate Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel on a map.

more at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html?em&ex=1203310800&en=ed986aa2c486c13d&ei=5087%0A

[hobbit709]

1. only 23 percent of those with some college could locate Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel on a map

About the same percentage that can locate the United States on a map. and I'm pretty sure that a good percentage can't count past ten with their shoes on.

[FlowerPowerToday]

2. That is scary!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FlowerPowerToday]

7. That's really welcoming.

I really thought the fact that many college students don't know where Iraq is truly scary. Sorry I upset you.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. Well, I'll say welcome to DU

I have no idea where else you have posted or what you have said, but I think everyone deserves to be welcomed politely to this board. So hello and welcome to DU! :hi:

[FlowerPowerToday]

23. Thank you

I appreciate that. He/She's right, I probably shouldn't have jumped onto the threads like that. I was nervous. I think I'll just sit back and read for a while to get a better feel for the land. Thanks for making me feel like I'm not such an idiot.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

37. Hey, we all had to start someplace

and I've made my share of idiotic and inflammatory statements. Don't worry about it. And know that you are welcome to chime in whenever you like, as long as you follow the rules. And anyone who says otherwise is forgetting what DU is all about, imho.

And, for your information: A person on DU who has a problem with the posts of another DUer has several options. Here they are:

1. If the post does not follow the rules, you hit the ALERT button and you tell the mods you think the post is in violation of the ruls.

2. If the post is within the rules, but just gets your goat, put that poster on IGNORE. That's the icon with the red x by the person, I think. I've used it many a time and it has helped make things easier for me. You can take people off IGNORE whenever you want, too.

3. If the post is within the rules, and upsets you, you can choose to either not answer the post or answer in a polite way. Personally, I try to do the latter, but often it isn't easy!

I hope these tips help you (and others) have a productive and pleasant stay here at DU. :)

[intaglio]

91. Welcome, enjoy

(after the primary madness has gone)

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

10. And you're making a huge contribution to the board how, exactly?

[FlowerPowerToday]

14. What do you want me to do?

A dance or something? I'm unfamiliar with all this and I thought I'd just dive in and throw in my two cents. I'm sorry.

[madmom]

31. welcome to DU, don't be sorry I'm all for diving in, how will we learn if we don't

get others opinions and rationales. If it gives you food for thought it can't be bad!

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

46. FlowerPowerToday, I was responding to the poster who attacked you

I see his message has since been deleted. Sorry for the confusion.

[my2sense]

80. Welcome!! n/t

[Andrea]

81. Sometimes it gets confusing to follow how the threads progress

It helps me to look in the upper right corner of the post to see who the person was responding to. In this case, the poster wasn't responding to you, but to post #3. I haven't seen that post because it got removed, but from context I deduce that #3 was attacking you. So, this post was attacking the one that attacked you, not you.

You are doing fine, don't worry. Everyone starts at zero and the only way to progress is to work your way up. Some people seem to denigrate people with low numbers of posts, but I don't think it makes any sense. That's where we all start.

Welcome to DU!


:hi:

[El Pinko]

33. I post a bunch of links that I find informative every day, with a bit of commentary...

... you may not care for it, but I do put some time and effort into it and I have my own viewpoint and don't just basically say. "Yeah, I think so too!" on every thread.


But if FlowerPower is on the up-and-up, I hope his/her feelings weren't hurt.

I didn't realize I came across THAT hostile.

[FlowerPowerToday]

40. You are right

I thought it would be better to say hello by just quietly saying, "Right on" and such. I see that wasn't such a good idea now. You are right and you didn't hurt my feelings. I was more embarrassed that not only did I not make a good impression, I made a bad one. Lesson learned. I will just sit back more and try to earn my stripes by adding something more substantial to my comments.

[El Pinko]

44. I'm sorry for being a suspicious git.

If you're a cool person, it will show and you didn't deserve to be attacked on your 6th post.

"I thought it would be better to say hello by just quietly saying, "Right on" and such. I see that wasn't such a good idea now. You are right and you didn't hurt my feelings. I was more embarrassed that not only did I not make a good impression, I made a bad one. Lesson learned. I will just sit back more and try to earn my stripes by adding something more substantial to my comments."

You didn't do anything bad. It's just that I've seen more than a few trolls go through that kind of pattern until they have enough posts to create a new post, and then they post a bunch of BS.

But to assume automatically that you were going to do that was wrong on my part and I'm sorry. It's too bad that there are trolls who do that, and people end up jaded and suspicious.

I wish I could just take people's comments on face value.

Anyway, Welcome.

:hi:

[FlowerPowerToday]

47. Thanks for forgiving the clumsy entrance.

I feel like I entered the stage by tripping, then grabbing the curtain and tearing it down. Yeah, I'm a dork. So, I'm going to now make a graceful exit and try again next weekend (computer time is Saturday mornings). 'Til next week......

[lumberjack_jeff]

50. Welcome to DU.

:hi:

[Andrea]

82. It certainly is

How can people put events in those regions in context if they don't even know which countries share borders?

[n2doc]

104. Welcome to DU!

And don't that the nasties get to you. Half the time they are posting in response to something said elsewhere. It IS scary that so many people are ignorant of basic facts in this country, things that are not matters of opinion. Like the location of Iraq. Or Hungary.

[Golden Raisin]

52. EXACTLY the kind of populace

people like Norquist, Rove, Cheney and the big corps controlling the MSM want, need and love. People who'll be hypnotically glued to 'American Idol' while their Constitutional Rights are removed.

[AnneD]

4. When you spend more money on coaches and astroturf ...

instead of class rooms, books.....what do you expect. As George Carlin once put it(paraphrasing)they want the public to be smart enough to be good workers-not to think.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. the town where I work just spent $4 MILLION bucks

on a super duper football stadium. NO ONE from this town has ever gotten into the pros. In fact, the local hero is someone who made first string on the football team at the University of Arkansas. I'm not kidding. I think of how many computer labs, expanded science classes, etc, could have been created--but the townspeople, who raised this money privately, thought it more important to have a wide screen interactive scoreboard. Sigh. My boss is one of the big contributors, of course, and is so ignorant of issues it makes me cry.His preacher tells him how to vote and who to hate, and that's just fine with him.

[eppur_se_muova]

51. Exactly! Sadly, it seems many students are only looking for job training.

And many of their parents treat it the same way. If they can make it through college without working too hard and walk away with their hand stamped "employable", that seems to be the limit of their ambition, at least intellectually.

(Not true of all, of course, but at state schools, the majority.)

[pretzel4gore]

5. the media is dumb and dumber, the pigmedia!

the lying liars of foxnewscnnbcbsabcpbskkk aka 'snakeoil news' are the elephant in the tub, creating all the bubbles, not the american people! They just waiting to freshen up...The same soldiers who round your family up to put into death camps are the soldiers who liberate you from the camps! Mind you the depravity of the 'authorities' in this modern era is almost beyond belief, and what that entails for popular cultural opinion (90 percent do not believe the official version of 911, for example-almost 95 percent know that JFK was killed by insiders too) only hushtory will tell...

[Donnachaidh]

27. uhh -- the american public is getting dumber and dumber

Come on!

When you plan your evenings around your TV schedule? When the funniest thing you can come up with is a catch phrase from an advertisement? When you stand in lines for DAYS for the newest severely overpriced GADGET that will cost you a even more to use? When the music is nothing more than sampled bits of earlier musician's work?

It ain't JUST the news. Two words -- "American Idol". A pathetic bunch of wannabees making complete and total asses out of themselves to get on TV, so a whole bunch of complete and total asses can sit in their livingrooms watching them make asses out of themselves.

The depravity and stupidity can be found in front of each and every set. It just seems worse because now some of the dullards are now working at the TV stations.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

42. You've touched on a very important point

I grew up in a time when not everyone had a tv. When we finally got one when I was 5, we watched shows at night, but never planned our lives around the set. To this day, I watch very little TV--Judge Judy (for the comedy of real life-hey, you get to see some of the people we're talking about on this thread on that show!) and Law & Order (for the fantasy of drama). And that's it. No cable for me, just an antenna, and when they go digital next year, I won't even miss those two shows I watch. Most folks I know don't watch TV that much, and for sure their lives don't revolve around the set. But I also know that I live in an atypical community (solar power, geo-thermally heated houses, organic farming are common). I've even seen a bumper sticker-Get Smart, Kill Your TV. I know kids who don't watch television, and they have longer attention spans and healthier bodies and greater knowledge because they spend their time working or playing outdoors and reading books and looking up information on the internet. They are the kids of my neighbors--again, sadly, a small minority in this country.

[malaise]

63. TV is really bad but the schools aren't much better n/t

[pretzel4gore]

92. 'Up From Conservativism"

it's a book by Michael Lind, a one time repub scholar/thinker. Lind describes the '3 hoaxes' of the post Goldwater 'conservative' movement-3 hoaxes that have been debunked, but, like Cheney claiming Iraq had WMD's as late as yesterday, or Bush saying "I won the Trifecta on 911" chuckling over the suffering of the victims to loud gopig applause as recently as last year, the truth has no bearing, no weight, on the results. The results are what matters. The 3 hoaxes are:
1) taxes are too high
2) the public schools are a failure
3) poor unmarried women have babies in large numbers
Lind was referring to the regan era when these 'hoaxes' became gop talking points- you are almost certainly aware of them, maybe even believe them. But they weren't true in regan era, and probably aren't true today. But that doesn't matter, the cuts to welfare/public education and such schemes as the 'war on drugs' etc have created a new reality in which underfunded schools have fallen into the gutter, and poor people have been 'demoralized' by the constant gopig war on them etc. As far as taxes too high, this 'taking candy from a baby' attack on civil society doesn't need debunking- mr pig brags about being subsidised by the starving children of africa....
And for TV, we can only wonder at what went on behind the curtain to hurt the public, in terms of secret public subsidies of rightwing productions, and coincident demeaning of liberal democratic ones, over generations. The 'Sopranos' was a magificent achievement, but it was created away from where the gopigs were in control, and became a big success only thanks to the genius of Chase and company; otherwise it would have been entertainment for the well to do only..iow the fix is in, and has been for generations, and we aren't as stupid, as greedy, or as brutish as the 'conventional wisdom' as typified by comm. tv or talk radio claim. 'Brokeback Mountain' was a wonderful movie also, regardless of whether a person is gay or not, but it defied the pig, and... you get the idea

[Solly Mack]

6. Ooo...oooo

This part here - (“the idea that there is no such things as evidence or fact, just opinion”)

It's a tactic used to create doubt when something unpleasant or criminal is uncovered...especially in government...and we've seen it used repeatedly over the last 7 years.

If it's just your opinion that Bush is a war criminal..then there is no fact.
If it's just your opinion that water-boarding is torture...then there is no fact.

If it's just a matter of opinion, then how can anyone say the Bush admin. did anything criminal? There is no fact...just people offering their opinions.

I've brought this up before...

Turn it into a "debate", as if there is anything to debate, and you introduce doubt and can claim people are expressing their opinions and not fact.

And we've seen Bush Inc do this over and over again


It's opinion that Bush is committing crimes.
It's opinion that Bush violated the Constitution.

And it doesn't matter how many facts you point to as long as that doubt has been introduced. Some people will continue to dismiss the facts...because the facts demand they change or forces them to rethink what they think they know....and in some cases, the facts mean someone has to be held accountable.


It's why words and phrases like "mistakes were made" are used

A mistake is something everyone makes...but to deliberately lie to the people? Well, that means government did something horrible and that changes how people look at government. And that means the government that they want to trust and they want to believe the best of is not what they thought it was....and that changes everything.

"We don't torture"
"Water-boarding isn't torture. It's an interrogation technique"
"Water-boarding is being used by professionals with safeguards in place"

which leads to - People who say it's torture are just expressing opinion (because they hate Bush, hate America, are being "political")...besides, it's safe when we do it.

And there are even more examples...

[EFerrari]

13. Ditto the millions Exxon has spent to create doubt here about

global warming in collusion with the Bush government.

[Solly Mack]

21. exactly

great example!

[elizfeelinggreat]

15. very well said

my favorites "it was an honest mistake" (well, that's okay then)

behaving as if it's a fact that he's a good man (stop picking on him)

at least you know where he stands (even if he's wrong)

or manufactured outrage that anyone would question his/their "integrity" or imply they knew what they were doing when they did it ...

[Solly Mack]

22. Yes! Great examples!!

[TahitiNut]

28. Ahhh... the language of knowing.

Both fact and fiction lead to belief. Or not. Both fact and fiction can be vessels for truth, which is merely a cargo. Or not. But anyone incapable of distingushing between knowledge and opinion is a fool. Or not.

:dunce:

[Solly Mack]

66. lot of fools in the world

different degrees of fools about different things...some harmful, some not

I'm a fool about certain things. Mostly not harmful.. and then only harmful to myself.(Caution: Hot! and Solly must touch it anyway)

Turning fact and evidence into a matter of opinion can be harmful
That a person would rather believe the lie that a fact is just opinion often time speaks to their inability to want to deal with the changes the fact will bring...it disrupts their comfy world. Challenges it.

It says something they just refuse to hear...but if it's labeled an opinion, then they can disregard the fact without feeling bad about it. The fact then becomes simply not true for them...just somebody's opinion.

there are other motives, of course...

[TahitiNut]

68. I believe what I know but I don't know everything that I believe.

:evilgrin:

[Solly Mack]

69. lol! Love it!

You're bad...in a very good way.

[annabanana]

77. I LOVE that Stephen Colbert has made a good living pointing this out.. . . n/t

[Solly Mack]

78. It's one of the main reasons I enjoy his show

He's got it nailed.

[puebloknot]

89. "Mistakes were made."

An abusive husband makes a mistake when he dislocates his wife's nose! And he makes up for it by bringing candy and flowers!

Catholic priests, Protestant preachers make mistakes when they molest children. They get sent off to some sort of rehab in a bucolic setting, and the children get to suffer their whole lives.

We the People are making a major mistake in letting this criminal administration dislocate the rule of law, and, you should pardon my French, screw us over six ways from sundown, and then listen to talk of bipartisan harmony, and moving on into a "post-partisan" world!

We are a laughing stock before the whole world, with our talk of freedom and justice, and our behavior at home and abroad which directly contravenes our message!

[Sentath]

101. It must be getting late

'cause my response to your last bit:

"We don't torture"
"Water-boarding isn't torture. It's an interrogation technique"
"Water-boarding is being used by professionals with safeguards in place"

which leads to - People who say it's torture are just expressing opinion (because they hate Bush, hate America, are being "political")...besides, it's safe when we do it.

Was to respond to the imaginary interlocutor with: (please read with an unnecessarily bright and cheery sarcasm) "Well, it'll be perfectly safe when I pull your fingernails out, we'll dip your hands in boiling water first and swab them with iodine after."

[zanne]

8. STEROID USE IN BASEBALL! STEROID USE IN BASEBALL! nt

[salvorhardin]

9. I don't think Americans are hostile to knowledge

But I do think Hofstadter firmly established that there is a strong strain of anti-intellectualism that runs through our culture for various reasons (not all of them are necessarily bad ones either). One of the examples Hofstadter gave that resonates with me is the 1950s school principal who believed that not every child should be able to read, write or do basic arithmetic.

Between this day and that a lot of selling must take place. But it's coming. We shall some day accept the thought that it is just as illogical to assume that every boy must be able to read as it is that each one must be able to perform on a violin, that it is no more reasonable to require that each girl shall spell well than it is that each one shall bake a good cherry pie. ...

One junior high in the East has, after long and careful study, accepted the fact that some twenty percent of their students will not be up to standard in reading. . . . and they are doing other things for these boys and girls. That's straight thinking. Contrast that with the junior high which says, "Every student must know the multiplication tables before graduation."
More: http://neuralgourmet.com/2006/02/08/dont_know_nothin_bout_history_or_readin_or_writin_or_figurin

While I certainly don't think everybody should be able to do calculus or chemistry or even read Moby Dick, I do think there is a certain base knowledge that everyone needs to have in order to function well in our modern society. Furthermore, I think there is a core set of skills that is needed in order for our political system to work and increasingly a basic understanding of math, science and technology is part of that.

After all, how can somebody cast an intelligent vote for their representatives who must make laws concerned with (for instance) carbon emissions reductions or internet policy is they themselves don't have a basic understanding of science or computing technology? At least enough to understand when they're being fed a bogus argument.

It's interesting too I suppose that Hofstadter wrote Anti-Intellectualism In American Life at least in part in response to the New Left which was attacking not just the military and the government but also academia. While Hofstadter was no friend of the New Right (the Goldwater-style conservatism that later morphed into Reaganism and right wing political talk radio), he did tend to drift more centrist in his later years precisely because of the anti-intellectualism that was strongly a part of the New Left in the mid-late 1950s and 1960s. I think it's still a problem today, especially when we have too many people on the left who are advocating what were traditionally far right wing conspiracy theories.

In any case, I look forward to reading Susan Jacoby's new book. I thoroughly enjoyed and learned a lot from Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism.

[KansDem]

11. Only 1 in 1,000 Americans can name all five First Amendment freedoms.

Read it and weep...

D’oh! More know Simpsons than Constitution

Study: America more familiar with cartoon family than First Amendment

Only one in four Americans can name more than one of the five freedoms in the First Amendment, but more than half can name at least two family members of "The Simpsons" (from left, Lisa, Marge, Maggie, Homer and Bart).

The study by the new McCormick Tribune Freedom Museum found that 22 percent of Americans could name all five Simpson family members, compared with just one in 1,000 people who could name all five First Amendment freedoms.

--more--
MSNBC

Yeah, we're a nation of ignoramuses.

I suppose that's why we all sit around looking stupid while the neo-con fascists enslave us...

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. to be honest, I had to google the 3rd. n/t

[KansDem]

90. A couple of years ago, I couldn't name all five

But ever since BushCo first demonstrated its penchant for shredding the Constitution, I learned them. And I made sure my kids (boy 10 & girl 16) learned them, too!

[Smith_3]

12. "Evolution is just a theory" nt

[FloridaJudy]

39. So's gravity

Care to test it?

(Not meant for the poster, but for the people who actually believe that crap)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. Ignorance even among teachers is astounding

When I worked for the Fort Worth Texas school district, we had an in-service. One of the classes was on the Middle East. The instructor asked us to name a nation whose name began with the letter "O". 3/4 of those attending said "Oklahoma". These were certified teachers, mind you! I was one of only two people in the whole class who knew that the answer was "Oman".

This is disgusting and frightening. I knew the location of the Middle Eastern countries mentioned in the article by the time I was in sixth grade! (And I knew the states, their locations and capitals, by the time I was in third grade.) But even when I was growing up, there was a clear prejudice against people who were "too smart".

[eppur_se_muova]

54. Bonus points for Osage and Ojibway nations? :^D nt

[Prophet 451]

19. I think so

I think you can probably trace it back to the Populists crusade against the know-nothings in Washington but from this vantage point (England), I tend to see a very wide streak of anti-intellectualism in American thought. Partly, that's inevitible. When a nation has "all men are created equal" as one of it's founding thoughts, it perforce leads to the view that one man's opinion is as good as any others and so, you end up with a nation where the mass media competes to cater to the moron class, where over half believe evolution never happened, where global warming doesn't exist.

Naturally, that tendancy has been exploited and encouraged by those with something to gain from it, from Rush Limbaugh to Bill O'Lielly to Rupert Murdoch (whom I indirectly work for).

EDIT: It's also worth pointing out that the US is one of the most hyper-Christian nations in the world and nowhere in the Bible is intelligence praised as a virtue.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. This goes to Reagan, perpetuated by the Bushes, culminating in the idiot we have now

He wears his intellectual incuriousness on his sleeve as badge of honor. Faith based. And that's the other piece of the puzzle ..... the religiously insane who take everything on faith, thereby feeling perfectly comfortable in not having a need to learn anything not told to them.

Together, they ARE the citizens of Dumbfuckistan.

[Bandit]

24. As a result America enjoys the Bush* Cabal as our Leaders.

Stupid is as Stupid does...

[FormerDittoHead]

25. The issue here isn't our lack of knowledge, but our CULTURE which ENCOURAGES a lack of knowledge...

I've seen these damn IQ polls all the time, like how 20% of Britons think that Winston Churchill was a fictional character.

But the POINT of this article is how our culture seems to PRIDE itself in NOT learning new things, and being indignant at the suggestion they could learn more.

Our culture socially OSTRACIZES and MOCKS those who study hard in high school and college, REWARDS people simply for their physical prowess and beauty, and the MONEY goes not to the smartest or learned, but to the most AMBITIOUS.

[flashl]

26. We got other priorities ...

Referendum to use school taxes for redevelopment sought

Two metro Atlanta state senators say they will file legislation next week calling for a statewide referendum in November to allow school property taxes to be diverted to redevelopment projects.

---

Prison vs. education spending reveals California's priorities

"Today, education is perhaps the most important function of state and local governments," the U.S. Supreme Court stated in its landmark Brown vs. Board of Education decision. "It is the very foundation of good citizenship ... . In these days, it is doubtful that any child may reasonably be expected to succeed in life if he is denied the opportunity of an education."

Despite these realities, we not only continue to feed the prison system at the expense of funding education, we've also blurred the lines separating the educational and criminal justice systems, creating a school-to-prison pipeline with a predictable and steady flow.

[Donnachaidh]

29. that beltway project!

So now they are going to pass legislation rather than STEAL the funds from the schools? How frigging nice of them.

So -- will we see anyone prosecuted for attempting to STEAL those funds in the first place? Don't hold your breath. That's just a bit of the *good Old Boy* politics in this cracker town of Atlanta. If you don't catch then red-handed, nothing was stolen.

[TZ]

30. Very true. One of my personal pet peeves

is people get their "scientific knowledge" from the MSM, which hardly EVER gets science right without HUGE distortions. But lets be clear that this anti-intellectualism is rampant throughout the American culture and not JUST a RW phenomena. We have some of the same problems with this on this site alone.
The next friggen idiot that says "I worship at the alter of science" or that so-and-so science is "faith-based" is gonna get it!! :mad: :grr: :nuke:

[tom_paine]

102. You worship at the altar of science.

Just kidding, fellow scientist. :hi:

You are definitely corrrect that this is not just an RW phenomena. But it is the RW who has devised extremely sophisticated (ironically, using the scienecs of psychology, advertising, and PR, or as I like to call them The Science of Lying) techniques to take advantage of our rising rampant anti-intellectualism.

See Solly Mack's posts above.

[alarimer]

106. I am absolutely with you on this

I hate science coverage in the MSM. There is so much conflicting information out there and they almost never correctly report the results of any study.

And there is all the breathless woo-woo nonsense like the recent "Ufo" sightings here in Texas. On the local news as if it was real and not some military aircraft or something far more prosaic and real than aliens.

And people here, otherwise quite intelligent, who fall for all that alternative medicine crap.

[ulysses]

32. yes.

Have been for a long time, too.

[BlueManDude]

34. smart = elite, effet. dumb = real folks.

[fishnfla]

35. solipsism, huh?

put down the remote, people

[Irishonly]

36. I Have Been Saying It For A Long Time

It certainly isn't comforting to see a study that gives credibility to my accusations and frustrations. It's not a good time for our country. Knowledge is power isn't popular now.

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. I'm afraid this article is more true than I wish it was

My brother until recently taught in a small junior college in Erie, PA.
Now Erie is right on lake Erie which separates it from Canada by about 26 miles of water. He told me recently that a significant number of his students did not know that Canada was to the North on the other side of the lake.

When it came to having any idea where say the UK was in relationship to Italy or India or anything whatsoever about even the most basic information about the world - a clear majority of students had absolutely no idea whatsoever.

Even on purely domestic matters the majority of students would have no idea whatsoever about basic eighth grade civics class stuff like how the House of Representatives or the Senate is formed or how a law is passed.

This situation is truly dangerous considering that this is the population of the strongest political and military power in the history of the world.

[eppur_se_muova]

59. So little gaffes like this will pass unnoticed ?

[ulysses]

72. what gaffe?

Iraq IS is Eastern Europe!

[sendero]

41. You can thank the 4th estate for this one..

... by abdicating their role as the finders of fact, and instead merely letting one side say one thing and the other say another, people have given up on learning the truth about anything.

It's true that some things are subjective, but facts are not.

[Andrea]

84. Beautiful post!

So succinct and so full of import.

[jeanruss]

43. water fluoridation reduces IQ

It is a scientific fact that water fluoridation dumbs people down. It is a neurotoxin that affects the judgement center of the brain. It also causes many diseases including bone cancer in children. This is why the Europeans banned ity over a decade ago. America, on behalf of business, keeps promoting the practice so that industry can be paid for their pollution instead of having to pay for its disposal. Americans are getting way too much fluoride as it is in anything made with tap water. The Nazis used it as mind control in the ghettos to keep prisoners compliant. Fluoride is the main ingredient in drugs like Prozac. We installed a fluoride filter in our house to keep it away from our family after our daughter was diagnosed with bone cancer.

[salvorhardin]

48. Your post is a prime example of the kind of anti-intellectualism Susan Jacoby rails against

While it's true that there is little scientific consensus that water fluoridation is of wide-spread benefit, there is a vast literature that shows it to be of little harm. Before buying into 50 year old far right wing conspiracy theories you might want to, you know, actually read what those intellectuals, i.e. scientists and doctors, have to say about the subject.
http://www.badscience.net/?p=611

Jesus, it really pisses me off when people repeat this kind of shit.

[jeanruss]

57. The Fluoride Deception

You're the one with head in the sand disease. If you want science read Christopher Bryson's book "The Fluoride Deception". It documents the history of water fluoridation and the health damage it causes. Europe based its discontinuation of the practice based on its scientific research. There is NOT vast literature proving it is safe. Your entire post is wrong. Get some facts. The latest study from Harvard clearly showed an increase in bone cancer in young boys in fluoridated communities. The EPA is clear on the danger of fluoride. It requires its disposal to be the same as nuclear waste. On Youtube, if you search fluoride and bone cancer you will see the videos of the Harvard professor who tried to subvert the study because of its conclusions and his ties to dental industries. You need to get up to speed on this issue. Bone cancer in children, accordine to the NIH has increased 40% in the last 10 years. As we continue to increase this practice, more children are getting this deadly disease.

[TZ]

94. Umm where did you get the idea

that fluoride is in Prozac? Do you know what a chemical element vs. compound (like a neurotransmitter) is?
Bone cancer fyi, is linked to carcinogens in the air and groundwater (not fluoride but benzene) as well as genetic defects.
How do I know? I am a SCIENTIST that does immunology as well as having a form of bone marrow disorder. Your post is indeed an anti-intellectual piece of fear mongering.

[ulysses]

97. you're a scientist?

So, what, that means you know shit and stuff? Damned propeller-heads...

;-)

[tuckessee]

45. I personally believe that US Americans.....

... are unable to do so because, uh, some people out there in our nation don't have that and, uh, I believe that our education like such as in South Africa, and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as and I believe that they should, uh, our education over here in the US should help the US or should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we will be able to build up our future.

[Wilber_Stool]

60. Well said................n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. Anti-rationalism. That's it.

The belief that fact lies midway between opposing opinions drives me nuts.

The midpoint between truth and bullshit is only diluted bullshit.

There is something insidious and harmful about this argument, however. The 28% of people who consider themselves intelligent by virtue of their education do run the country to their benefit. Stupid though the rest of us might be, we're still citizens and we're being systematically ignored.

http://www.graysharbortalk.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3065#Post3065

[bbgrunt]

55. Colbert has been dramatizing this for a couple of years now.

Unfortunately, many do not even understand his message because it is easy to enjoy his comedy without really understanding it--as evidenced by his invitation to the national press club dinner with *..

[whatchamacallit]

56. Cue Lee Greenwood n/t

[Beregond2]

58. Education

These stories have been coming out for as long as I can remember. Everyone blames the education system, but people can educate themselves if they care to, especially in this age of the internet. Knowledge for it's own sake just isn't respected in this country.

One thing I would like the new president to emphasize is "education for citizenship," with a drive to see that all high school graduates could pass the same test that immigrants must to gain citizenship. Even when I was in high school back in the seventies, civics was no longer a required class.

[BuelahWitch]

75. My own mother never finished high school

but she read to me frequently when I was a little girl. This gave me a good background for when I started school. As a result I grew to love books and never had a problem with reading comprehension in the early grades. This helped with spelling and writing ability later on.
What I'm saying is the problem can't all be blamed on the school system. I'm sure many of these children arrive at school with little or no exposure to books or numbers. It's so much easier to plop the kid in front of the TV than spend time reading with them.
Schools can only do so much. The parents need to shoulder some of the responsibility for the "dumbed down" kids.

[Lars39]

61. Seen on a church marquee: The Devil Adds and Subtracts.

:eyes:

[malaise]

62. Susan Jacoby was excellent on Bill Moyers Journal

last night.

You can watch here.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02152008/profile.html

[Divernan]

64. The notion of foreign travel is very frightening to many Americans

Which of course results in the parochial, insular, uninformed state of the American psyche.
Some high level GOPer recently bragged he had no passport. "I went to Europe once. Why would I want to go again?:
I find Europeans (especially the French!) such delightful company - well read, well traveled, well educated, great conversationalists, intensely political, passionately interested in the world around them, and noticeably NOT addicted to collecting "stuff". I've also met wonderful people in Central America, Micronesia and Istanbul. Nothing grows the mind and enriches the spirit like spending time in different countries and cultures - and I don't mean a 12 countries in 10 days tour with another bunch of American tourists, or staying at some 5 star resort. I mean living somewhere, if only for a week, and going to the local cinema, theatre or concert; riding the local busses & trolleys; shopping in the local groceries and pharmacies; listening to the local church choir or attending a village festival; riding a bike into the countryside.

[gordianot]

65. American schools for many are a dismal failure.

They were not left behind, they never left the gate.

[ulysses]

67. hostility to knowledge is the fault of the schools?

[gordianot]

74. I've seen it for 31 years.

With all of the tests, programs, technology we still turn out students who cannot find Asia on a map, know who was President during or the significance of the Civil War, or how to balance a check book.

Schools like Government are a reflection of the Society that creates them.

[ulysses]

93. I would argue that it's been around far longer than that.

You'll recall the anecdote in which an admirer tells Adlai Stevenson that he has the votes of all thinking people in America, to which Stevenson's reply is that he needs a majority to win.

I'll agree that schools mirror the society, at least to a significant extent. Given that, it would seem to be more meaningful to say that society has failed our children. They learn to denigrate learning well before they hit the school door.

[gordianot]

99. In rare instances schools can make a difference.

I guess I listened too much to people such as William Spady.

[leftofthedial]

70. capitalism dominates EVERY facet of our lives

EVERY corner of our experience is filled with relentless capitalist propaganda.

Capitalism requires an ignorant, not overly intelligent populace and that is what it gets.

[snot]

71. "The Century of the Self" sheds light on this problem --

an amazing, 4-part BBC doc that you can view on-line; see http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151 .

The basic thesis is that for many decades, big business and governments have used psychoanalytic theories to manipulate us by appealing to our primitive, unconscious desires, and that one result has been that citizens have been transformed into consumers secretly expecting their every whim to be catered to. I.e., we've been trained to feel we shouldn't have to think rationally about common goals, but rather to seek fulfillment through gratification of selfish desires for consumer goods, tax cuts, etc.

[Jade Fox]

73. The Right Wing Noise machine.....

has been essential in creating the "there is no fact, just opinion" mentality. This mentality destroys credibility based on actual knowledge and experience, and allows idiots to believe their own ignorant ideas are just as valuable as those of people who know what they are talking about.

[L. Coyote]

76. The film "Stupidity" is a MUST SEE. It puts voter intelligence in perspective!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

79. Do you mean "Idiocracy"?

[Bigmack]

107. That movie... especially the first 5 minutes...

said it all perfectly (if crudely).

[Fire Walk With Me]

83. Americans are hostile to anything Inconvenient. If the truth is Inconvenient, they're hostile to it.

Yet Personal Inconvenience is the only point at which most Americans will arise and protest.

[Hissyspit]

85. Speaking as a college professor to incoming freshman, I would be hard-pressed not to say

that there is a good deal of truth in that.

Given the choice between learning a new fact or idea at a given moment or checking Facebook for the umpteenth time in the past 10 minutes, most of my students seem to go with the Facebook. (That's learned compulsive behavior, of course.)

[malaise]

86. Most of my students prefer text messages to text books

One of my colleagues showed me an exam script from a first year International Relations Student who spelled Iraq ERACK throughout the paper.

Edit subject

[kiva]

100. No facts, please!

One of my students in an online class, responding to a series of documents, complained that they were too full of facts. She added that she was more likely to believe someone who wrote a more emotional appeal than an article that was just full of information.
Thank goodness my computer wasn't damaged in the fall as I curled into a fetal position.

[earth mom]

87. I agree that the focus & money is on sports. But also, kids don't read books enough.

When I was a kid in the late 60s & 70s, I was a total bookworm. The other kids on my block rarely, if ever, cracked open a book. I did better in school than they did. O8)

Get a kid to read and it will change their world.

edited to add:

I also think the problem is triggered and compounded by the evil corporate medias role; their constant LIES about everything under the sun and how they push everyone toward obsessive consumerism from birth. Add the glut of sports, movies, t.v., video games, computers, cell phones and you see absolute stupidity reign and people who are divorced from reality.

Reading is THE KEY because by reading and learning about their world, people would soon learn that they are being taken for a ride and screwed over by the corporate media whores and all the other institutions-like the government-that they believe in.

[puebloknot]

88. This is why the candidates, and the candidates' spouses, should...

...stop with the talkin', walkin', shoulda, gonna rhetoric. We've had seven years and counting of an embarrassment in our White House, a "leader" who makes a mockery of education. It's well known that one of the first things conquerors do is take away the language of the people they wish to dominate. In language lies our best hope!

I just watched a clip of Michelle Obama making a speech. She is a well-educated, intelligent woman. But she "gets down" in her speeches, and ends up sounding just a bit like a preacher woman, and I wish she would cut it out! Her message is superb, and I fully believe she could wow them at Harvard. I think she and her husband (and the other candidates to a much lesser degree) face that old conundrum I've heard spoken of on the Native American reservations across the country. A young person leaves the reservatiion to get an education, and then comes home to try and make a difference. But he/she is looked upon as too uppity, someone who now thinks he's better than the others. And the pressure is great to dumb down and not rise above the crowd. There is nothing more important than having Michelle and Barack Obama *not* hiding their light under a bushel, for fear of losing votes. Excellence is not only *not* something to hide, it's what we badly need if we are to survive.

I'm not just pickin' on Michelle here! :) I've noticed Hillary doing the same thing when she is in the South, or some rural area. Our leaders need to set an example of what it is to be educated and well-spoken. You can use proper English, and still project warmth, understanding, and vision. John and Jackie Kennedy did a darned good job of that.

We're hearing a lot about *values* again in this presidential campaign. That's understandable, given that lying, cheating, murdering have been the hallmarks of the current administration. But I have concern that under that "values" message there is too much of that same sub rosa code used by the right-wing Christians who have co-opted our Constitution and Bill of Rights and tried (with too much success) to insert a narrow religious agenda into government at all levels.

I want to know from all candidates that education in America will remain secular, not "faith-based," and that improving our public schools will take top fiscal priority -- over war and over endless electioneering!

[LWolf]

95. The answer is yes.

I would disagree with her on one point:

<snip>

In part, she lays the blame on a failing educational system. “Although people are going to school more and more years, there’s no evidence that they know more,” she said.

The educational system is a reflection of the culture. When the community is blatantly anti-intellectual, students avoid intellectual exercise, and resist teacher's attempts to engage their brains in more than low-level, rote functioning.

When the Congress passes legislation that supports low-level memorization of fact and procedure as the goals, and measures "achievement" with high-stakes tests created as a tool to ENSURE that there will be a large future pool of cheap labor and cannon fodder, then put the blame where it belongs.

On the American culture, and the politicians voters elect.

[blm]

96. Post the BCCI Report here at DU and see a whole faction of the forum REFUSE to read it

Might make them wrap their brains around some facts they prefer to believe never happened.

[gulliver]

98. Not really. They are just immature and ignorant.

Americans still respect knowledge. They just don't know what it is. I don't know anyone who would deliberately side with stupidity. I know a lot of people who nevertheless do. It is immaturity and ignorance. They don't "know themselves." They don't know what they don't know.

I think the Bush Administration and GOP may end up saving America. They were so careless and vicious in sticking their fangs in our neck that they may have woken us up.

[tom_paine]

103. Ummm....yes. n/t

[Deja Q]

105. They're more hostile to actual communication.

Anything that goes against their own personal opinion, to even one syllable, is an act of Armageddon to them.

Or, at least, that's how many behave today.

BTW: Every poll is not 100% accurate unless 100% of the demographic is polled. The article doesn't exactly say that everyone 18-24 was polled, and they're using a cheap FOX show to illustrate their point.

[nealmhughes]

108. I was a graduate teaching asst. for 3 years at a large state flagship university in the History Dept

80 students of my own every semester, makes some 480 odd freshman souls I have had to come into direct contact with in Intro Western Civ.
Luckily, the presiding professor had a basic premise: "this is cultural literacy, purely and specifically; do not assume that they are ready, willing, or even will tolerate any philosophy, historiography or anything beyond a simple outline; and always remember that they are 18 years old and really good at one thing, and that is being kids, they've been practicing it for 18 years."

The map tests were straight out of a schizophrenic's ramblings. Rivers cannot flow north, one knows. How can Athens be close to Sparta when they were enemies? Why did you refer to Israel as "part of Greater Syria?" "Oh, Egypt isn't in Europe, but in Africa?" "Israel is in Asia and almost in Africa! I thought it was in Europe." "Oh, England is an island?"

Now that was 101, thank goodness, I was spared the later courses, but I did have to fill in once for a month while someone recovered from an illness: "Omigod! Russia was destroyed by the Nazis! No wonder they were mean after that." "We fought Germany in two world wars? I thought it was Russia."

Now these are kids fresh out of high school, where they ought to have retained a bit of info beyond sin2 + cos2 = 1, but no. I then discovered the seminal work from the early 70s, "The Intellectual and Moral Development of College Students: A Scheme." That pretty much explains it: the first stage of ethics and intellectual development is a black and white world, simplistic and no room for any dissent. Dissent causes confusion, which requires the student to think, and that is not fun for most. Witness Kant's diatrabe against those who are too lazy not to do their own thinking, but want someone to do it for them and present it to them on a platter.

Critical thinking is a drawback to a well-ordered over-crowded classroom with meddlesome parents who are out on a God-ordained agenda to destroy "secular humanism." Hence, the teachers teach to the middle, with little controversey in high school. The result is a numbed boring student population where there is a right or a wrong answer (very easy to grade those with a template instead of having to parse essays) and employers don't like too many rank and file who might thwart the machine or actually have ideas!

Russ Ackoff's data to wisdom systems theory model for education flows in the following way DATA --> INFORMATION --> KNOWLEDGE --> WISDOM.

We are evidently not even focusing on the data portion enough, much less the outer rings. My 4 year cousin "knows" her ABCs but does not realize that each one of these is a glyph that represents sounds. The data are there, but what good is it when it is arcane?