Kazmierczak spent a year in a psych facility in the 90s.

[EFerrari]

Gunman's friendly exterior masked past

By ASHLEY M. HEHER and CARYN ROUSSEAU, Associated Press Writers


DEKALB, Ill. - Steven Kazmierczak checked into a hotel near Northern Illinois University three days before his deadly shooting spree at the campus, paying cash and signing in under only his first name, the hotel manager said Saturday.

Kazmierczak was last seen at the Travelodge on Tuesday, hotel manager Jay Patel said. Cigarette butts, empty energy drink and cold medicine containers littered the room Friday.

Authorities found a duffel bag, with the zippers glued shut, that Kazmierczak had left in the room, DeKalb police Lt. Gary Spangler said. A bomb squad safely opened the bag Friday, he said.

(big snip)

Kazmierczak spent more than a year at the Thresholds-Mary Hill House in the late 1990s, former house manager Louise Gbadamashi told The Associated Press. His parents placed him there after high school because he had become unruly, she said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080216/ap_on_re_us/niu_shooting

/oops

[slackmaster]

1. If this is true, so much for him having legally bought those guns

f. Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes having been adjudicated mentally incompetent to manage your own affairs) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?



:kick: and R

[uppityperson]

3. Indeed.

[Warpy]

HIPAA.

Psychiatric facilities can't routinely send information on their patients to any agency.

A crazy person who's been hospitalized for violent outbursts in the past can still legally buy a gun if he just doesn't admit he's a crazy person prone to violent outbursts who's been hospitalized and wants to buy a gun to have a more effective violent outburst.

That's some Catch, that Catch 22.

[slackmaster]

17. Yes, and that creates an inherent conflict with the Gun Control Act and Brady Act

Without accurate and complete information, the NICS background check database is less effective than it could be.

A crazy person who's been hospitalized for violent outbursts in the past can still legally buy a gun if he just doesn't admit he's a crazy person prone to violent outbursts who's been hospitalized and wants to buy a gun to have a more effective violent outburst.

Giving a false answer on question f is a federal crime.

[Critters2]

58. In Illinois, hospitals are required to report inpatient treatment.

Doesn't matter whether he gives a false answer or not. The background check should've shown it.

[EFerrari]

23. If he was hospitalized for a YEAR, that's pretty significant.

I wonder what steps his parents took -- did they give that information to the school health care apparatus? Those poor people.

[slackmaster]

38. I'm wondering if his admission was voluntary, but his stay became involuntary some how

This story has already had one seismic shift, from "No history of mental health problems" to "Spent a year in a psych hospital". That tells me there is much more to come. I've never heard of parents keeping their child in a psychiatric facility for a whole year without the justice system getting involved somehow.

[Critters2]

51. Wrong. Hospitals are required to report this information to the state.

It is not considered a violation of HIPAA. When being admitted for inpatient treatment in Illinois, the patient is required to sign a document saying he understands that he can no longer purchase guns and that this status will be reported to the state of Illinois. Thus, not a matter of confidentialtiy.

[Eric J in MN]

13. It isn't clear that he was "committed" in the legal sense.

"committed" = involuntary

If his parents brought him there, and he voluntarily signed the forms to stay for a year, then that isn't "committed."

[EFerrari]

16. He was a minor. I don't think he could have signed himself in? n/t

[Eric J in MN]

25. I'm not a lawyer, but I think that "committed" means there was an order...

....from a judge or a similar legal authority forcing someone to be at the psychiatric hospital, and not just parents signing forms for him to stay there.

[EFerrari]

26. Oh -- yes. You're probably right about that. n/t

[slackmaster]

28. Here is a BATFE letter on the subject

http://www.gunowners.org/ne0703.htm

[slackmaster]

21. My understanding is that having your parents sign you in qualifies as a commitment

Maybe some legal experts can shed some light on it.

[Critters2]

50. Doesn't matter. According to Illinois law,

anyone admitted for inpatient psych treatment is prohibited from purchasing firearms--whether voluntarily or involuntarily admitted.

[bluestateguy]

2. Colleges need to think long and hard about admitting mentally ill studetns

The greater good of the many must always trump the greater good of the few.

[LoZoccolo]

4. We should bring back slavery for that exact same reason. n/t

[EFerrari]

7. More to the point, there needs to be continuity of care.

People with mental health issues are pretty common. People with mental health issues who hurt others are not.

[AngryOldDem]

34. Even more to the point, stop the social stigmatizing of mental illness.

I wish I could remember where I saw it, but in a story on this guy it was said that he hated to be known as someone with a mental illness. Thus one of the reasons why he went off his meds.

Mental illness is just that, an illness, like cancer, the flu, or any other thing physiological. It just affects a different part of the human being. It's an illness, like cancer or the flu, that can be treated, and treated successfully, at that.

Just how many more people like this guy are out there who are afraid to seek help, or are in denial, because they fear what others might say/think, or afraid of how society will treat them? That is also a true crime here.

[EFerrari]

39. I couldn't agree more. Stigma and cr@ppy care go hand in hand.

Convince people that mental illness is shameful or unreal, they won't report problems, they won't seek care, they won't fight for coverage. It's a racket.

[bluerum]

8. How about - gun dealers should not sell guns to people who have a history

of mental illness?

OK - they broke no laws. The laws are clearly inadequate. Stay tuned.

[slackmaster]

18. The Gun Control Act of 1968 makes it illegal for someone who has ever been committed

To buy a gun.

[Critters2]

52. Someone broke a law.

It's illegal in Illinois for anyone who's been hospitalized for psych care to purchase a gun. Either the gun dealer didn't do the proper checking, or the treatment center didn't report his hospitalization. Someone broke a law.

[bluerum]

10. (psst - your forgot the sarcasm smiley)

[TahitiNut]

20. Well, I'm not a fan of "Donner Pass Ethics."

Preying on the few has NEVER been a Good Idea. That's how Concentration Camps were built.

[wellstone dem]

37. OMG, please think before you post

How many people in this country have been treated for depression.

My daughter is in college, having beaten the odds of a life that began with severe child abuse and neglect before she came into my life. She struggles every day, with depression and severe anxiety. So she should be denied college because of what those who were supposed to care for her did. Or even worse, she should be denied college because she sought treatment.

Great idea, lets give every potential college student a psych test before they are admitted.


:sarcasm: :sarcasm:


Talk about crazy!

[EFerrari]

42. Good for her and for you, wellstone dem.

You can bet if Paul were still here, all our families would be so much farther ahead by now.

(Btw, your daughter's challenges were mine, too. And I LOVED every minute I spent at my university. Best to you guys. :toast: )

[wellstone dem]

47. Thank you

as bad as DU gets, it is always heartwarming to feel support and encouragement
and understanding across the miles. It keeps me coming back.

Thank you.

[EFerrari]

48. Come on over to the Mental Health Support group.

We've parents of and partners of and just about everyone. It's a great group. :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=276

[Critters2]

56. My seminary actually did give us a psych test.

Everyone had to take the MMPI before starting. I must be okay. They let me in.

[FloridaJudy]

64. I once spent a night in a mental hospital

Because events in my life had gotten out of control, and I was too depressed to get out of bed.

Does that mean I should not be allowed to attend a University? Or buy a gun if I live in a remote area, far from the local police station? Or practice my profession? Or drive a car - those can be used to kill as well?

Let me make one thing clear: the vast majority of the mentally ill are only a danger to themselves. They're far more likely to be victims than criminals. And to stigmatize mental illness is to make it worse, by causing people to avoid treatment for fear of being labeled.

[IsItJustMe]

41. And maybe people with AIDS too, huh? What a pathetic idea.

:sarcasm:

[slackmaster]

43. ;-)

[Critters2]

53. Yeah. What we need are un-employable mentally ill people. nt

[AZBlue]

62. WTF?

You must be joking.

If we just had better mental health care, you and I wouldn't even have to have this absurd conversation.

[spoony]

66. Yeah and they shouldn't have jobs, and families, too dangerous!

I've seen some really, er, original thinking here in the last few days.

[tularetom]

5. I heard he had a relapse after discontinuing his meds

Is there any information about whether or not he stopped because he either lacked health insurance or because his insurance no longer covered the medication?

[EFerrari]

11. I don't know. He seems to have been resistant to treatment

if you read between the lines in the article.

That can come and go.

And, you can relapse ON your meds if the meds become less effective for some reason or another. It happens.

[wuushew]

6. I am surprised he was accepted into the army

the article says he served in 2001-2002 before getting a psych discharge.

[EFerrari]

14. I'm not. n/t

[MADem]

22. A "September 11" enlistee, I suspect.

Probably NO DEP (Delayed Entry Program).

They got a (forgive the expression) SURGE of patriotic enlistees after that event. The MEPS were swamped with people wanting to join.

He probably took the ASVAB one day, had his physical exam the next, was sworn in, and did what is called in some branches a 'direct ship.' They do an ENTNAC (Entrance National Agency Check) and if his name doesn't pop up as a criminal, they ship him without doing the full National Angency Check (NAC). I'll bet he lied about his medications, denied mental illness on his physical questionnaires, and may well have been OFF his medications when he was in boot camp, and up until he was discharged early the following year.

[bossy22]

32. if he got a psych discharge

isnt that considered a dishonerable discharge- making you inelligable to purchase a firearm?

[slackmaster]

36. I believe only a dishonorable discharge disqualifies you under federal law

That's my understanding. Not sure if the state of Illinois has a different twist.

[EFerrari]

49. Depends. My boyfriend got an unofficial mental health discharge

in 1972. He got a medal for marksmanship even though he never touched a weapon because his CO liked him even though he was processing out. :shrug:

[Critters2]

54. He was already ineligible. Because he'd received prior inpatient treatment. nt

[MADem]

9. School shootings are becoming a 'rite of passage' in these times

I grew up in an era when that shit just did not happen.

Of course, I grew up in an era where they had things called "mental hospitals" where they treated people actively for their conditions. Nowadays, they throw a bunch of pills at people, and kick them out the door--even if they aren't ready to leave. And they make it tough for them to get back in once they walk out, too, with insurance companies limiting number of treatment days.

And THIS SHIT should give all of us pause:

A former employee at a Chicago psychiatric treatment center said Kazmierczak's parents placed him there after high school. She said he used to cut himself, and had resisted taking his medications.

He had a short-lived stint as a prison guard that ended abruptly when he didn't show up for work. He also was in the Army for about six months in 2001-02, but he told a friend he'd gotten a psychological discharge.

...."He never wanted to identify with being mentally ill," she said. "That was part of the problem."

...Kazmierczak had a State Police-issued FOID, or firearms owners identification card, which is required in Illinois to own a gun, authorities said. Such cards are rarely issued to those with recent mental health problems.

[bluerum]

15. So much for the FOID screening process.

[slackmaster]

19. FOID screening is very effective, but reporting of commitments and adjudications is lacking

That's the biggest problem with the present system. It's too easy for a person to simply lie about a past disqualifying event.

[bluerum]

40. Clearly, there are deficiencies in not only the FOID application process,

but in any process that depends upon applicants providing accurate medical history. Such a process is inherently flawed.

[slackmaster]

44. I really don't know how to fix that

It looks like a moral dilemma to me.

[bluerum]

45. Got to start somewhere.

[EFerrari]

46. There has been a movement toward sanity in dealing with mental health

(because our "system" is the most dysfunctional piece of this) to de-stigmatize mental health issues, to train law enforcement to respond appropriately, to set up mental health courts, to rebuild our clinical facilities and to integrate all the players. Oh, and to get parity for mental health care. It's still very, very, very young but, there is movement.

It's not clear that this movement will survive this sh!tstorm of an economy that Junior has inflicted on us (Junior and his enablers, I should say). A lot of people will get dead from homelessness or suicide or preventable disease or homocides even if we manage to continue at the current pace. Many more if this issue is just swept off the table.

[Critters2]

59. Don't count on the person trying to buy a gun.

Hospitals and agencies need to report, and be held accountable when they fail to do so. Someone was negligent in this case, and should be prosecuted.

[Irreverend IX]

60. They don't just "count on the person buying a gun."

Purchasers have to sign a statement saying they're not fugitives, formerly committed, etc. but that information is also checked with a phone call to the FBI NICS office whenever a gun purchase is made. The issue in this case is that the commitment was not reported to the NICS system. If the shooter wasn't committed by court order, the face that he spent a year at the psych hospital may never have been reported to the legal system.

[Critters2]

61. In Illinois, the law requires it to be reported,

for ALL inpatient psych treatment. I know this for a fact.

[spoony]

67. Yes, that BATFE letter you posted stated that only FOUR states

regularly submit that info.

[MADem]

24. It does seem to be pretty much a joke. They apparently don't look too hard, do they? NT

[bossy22]

35. this is just showing

how a good system- that is not enforced are upgraded- can lead to this. it now seems like he should have been barred from ownership but as usual- the background check system is not up to date.

[dkf]

12. Sounds to me like it had something to do with his breakup

That on top of mental illness is not good indeed.

[EFerrari]

31. When the problems are as serious as his seem to have been,

it's "chicken and an egg" to figure out which one presents itself first. Relationships can trigger you and behavior can mess up relationships.

The upside is that relationships can also be helpful. It goes both ways.

[seemslikeadream]

27. ..

[EFerrari]

33. The article mentions that he at one time used to cut.

And that, all by itself, makes me want to cry. Because that means for a time, anyway, he went to great lengths to manage his pain without involving other people.

:grr:

[bobthedrummer]

29. Steve Kazmierczak and Seung-Hui Cho purchased weapons and accessories from the same dealer

"The coincidence is uncanny. State gun dealer sold to both NIU, Va. Tech gunmen" by Bill Glauber and Gina Barton (2-15-2008 Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=718679

I'm looking into a lot of other "coincidences", hope to have more later.

And as Junkdrawer and others noted in some threads yesterday-Steve Kazmierczak was a published graduate student.

Here's a page about the academic aspect of Steve Kazmierczak
http://chronicle.com/news/article/3963/northern-illinois-u-shooter-was-graduate-student-at-u-of-illinois-at-urbana-champaign

[EFerrari]

30. You know, if he was as well liked and successful as the college says,

he would have still been there and not somewhere else.

Something happened. :shrug:

[Critters2]

55. Not surprising. He was in the U of I MSW program,

the best in the state. No one would've been surprised at his transferring from Northern to the U of I.

[EFerrari]

57. Actually, it's the opposite. Once you settle in grad school

everyone does their best to retain you. It's a major effort to transfer.

There's too much at stake that isn't written down anywhere.

[spindrifter]

63. He sounds as though

he may have been bipolar, and when he went off the meds, the "something" happened. It strikes me that some of this stuff where he quit various things he was very interested in may have been some sort of recognition that they didn't meet up with his expectations. Very sad, whatever happened to him.

[tuckessee]

65. Any CIA/ mil-int-ind complex ties to this facility? n/t

[bobthedrummer]

68. That is a question that always needs to be asked, also about staff.

It may not ever be answered-yet it must be asked.