Since misogyny has become quite the topic...

[misanthrope]

...here's something that has always given me pause.

Despite the changes that have been made in our contemporary lifestyles, women are by and large still the primary caregivers to children through their earliest childhood. It still holds true that most children's bonds with their mothers are stronger than with their fathers.

Those first years of life are the most integral, when we are imprinted with our most primal sociological patterns, beliefs and expectations. Then wouldn't the perpetuity of misogyny fall onto the shoulders of women as much as men if they are the ones instilling that bedrock beneath our society?

Thoughts?

[nashville_brook]

1. women are responsible for instilling misogyny in society b/c of their involvement

in early childhood development? is this to the exclusion of all other experience a person has in life -- iow's are you saying the misogyny only happens in early childhood?

[pitohui]

2. how is the woman's fault that a baby sees her first as a giant walking tit?

oh my god, why didn't i realize, that EVERYTHING in society is always mom's fault?

philip wiley, is it you?

[donsu]

52. if you work a word trail through any English language dictionary, using any word pertaining

to humans. the trail ends in a continous circle around the word nipple.

true

[uppityperson]

55. Crude but succinct and I agree wtih you.

Babies see the mom as giant walking tit. Food, protection, etc. Of course children go through different stages of mimicking varied adults (same sex, other sex) but no, mysogyny being the woman's fault because she is the giant walking tit? No.

How many mom's have heard from dad's "I'll baby sit while you go do (fill in the blank)"? No, it's called parenting. Societal factors in a lot.

[saltpoint]

3. IMO a major part of the difficulty is that we have yet to grow up as a culture.

We've only been around a little while, and we haven't learned how to prioritize like cultural adults. We squawk and cry and demand our way in the world and Europe and Asia, for exampe, hold us in contempt as a result.

Consider the sheer arrogance of Donald Rumsfeld for his characterization of "Old Europe." To say nothing of the pointless assault on a sovereign Middle Eastern nation.

We could learn quite a few things from other cultures, including how to raise girls and boys to be compassionate members of a mutual community instead of replications of already-misguided pseudo-adult models.

[pitohui]

5. no shortage of misogyny in the middle east or asia

so i don't get what your comment adds to this discussion?

[saltpoint]

6. I'm not adding anything to the discussion.

I'm dumb as a post and have nothing of value to contribute.

Now be quiet while I watch this rerun of the Jerry Springer show.

[CTyankee]

23. Dear OC, you are NOT dumb as a post. You are compassionate

and a real feminist. Thank god for that!

Thank you for your voice for humanity. I truly appreciate it...

[saltpoint]

25. CTyankee! Hi there. Happy Saturday, too. Thanks for

your kind words and let me send all good wishes right back.


:toast: :hi:

[CTyankee]

26. Thanks! I haven't forgotten that I owe you and other DUers a report back from Northern Italyl

My trip will be May 10-24. I hope to be talking to students at the University in Bologna about the U.S. election. I hear they love to try out their English on American tourists! I just hope their English is better than my Italian!

And I hope you and yours are well and happy!!!



:toast: :hi: :pals:

[saltpoint]

27. It's all good, except your upcoming travel itinerary, which is a LOT better

than just good.

Bravo, again, for an outstanding use of time and energy and community.

I predict you will come back with a terrific report but only after you've scraped your very brains off the cosmos. You people are doin' it right!

[CTyankee]

29. Well, let's hope. I want to scrape my brains off of those frescoes

by Giotto in Padua. Now THERE's something to see and I hope I make it on my train trip from Venice there...

[saltpoint]

30. Fair enough. Plus, you get to be in one of the oldest cultures for which

there is a glorious record.

Dammit all, I'm totally jealous.

[CTyankee]

31. Yeah, I'm pretty psyched for it.

Someone once said that art always saves you. I so totally believe that...

[saltpoint]

32. Had to be a damn smart person. I'm re-reading Simon Schama's THE POWER

OF ART and it just gets better.

"Art for art's sake? I should say so, and never more than the present time..." (E. M. Forster)

[CTyankee]

33. Because you have referenced Schama I will definitely research him.

Thank you.

[provis99]

45. oh, Italy has an old culture alright

The old misogyny culture there goes all the way to old Roman days; I wouldn't exactly call that glorious, however.

[saltpoint]

49. It's my personal pleasrue to know many Italians, and their experience is

strongly suggestive that your broadbush swipe is inaccurate.

There may sexists in a Bolivian village as we speak, but that doesn't mean the whole village is sexist, let alone the entire country.

I stand by my comments.

[Dr. Strange]

35. Dumb as a post and have nothing of value to contribute?

Old Crusoe, I've got five people on my Buddy List and you're one of 'em. I didn't even know you existed until about a month ago, and since then, damn near everything I've read of yours has made my brain hurt--either from laughter or cognitive exercise.

[saltpoint]

41. Doctor! There you are. It's a treat for me to run

into you this evening. Happy mid-February.

I hate to say it, but I'm asking myself why the Republicans have rallied behind a walking corpse like McCain. His voting record is appalling to progressives already, but on top of that, he sounds like he's under heavy sedation, as if someone put qualudes in his Good & Plenty box at the movies.

So I think we're in good shape. We know the GOP is going to crank up the Smear Machine, but I think they're gonna get whupped anyway.

I hope all's well your way.

[Dr. Strange]

60. It is something of a surprise that he's going to be the choice.

Perhaps they are simply running out of candidates? I don't know, and frankly the Eye of Agamotto gives me no insight into the mind of the GOP.

[Lorien]

4. From what I've seen, men who come from single parent homes

where their mothers were either not in a relationship or only had healthy relationships tend to become feminists. Men who come from homes where their mothers are physically or emotionally abused generally grow up to emulate the abuser (who, at his core, has little more than hatred and contempt for all women). Far more women are abused in one fashion or another in this country then anyone cares to admit.

[flvegan]

7. My mom pretty much raised me.

I'm a proud feminist.

I have 4 or 5 friends in the same situation, and we've had this discussion before.

[misanthrope]

9. Interesting point**nm

**

[misanthrope]

58. Did you ever come across...

...men raised by misandrist mothers? If so, what did you notice about them?

[Lorien]

63. I can't say that I have, but I guess I'll find out when my sister's boy

is grown. She only briefly dated his dad, and has always referred to men as "dickheads", so I suspect that her boy is in for a rough patch once he starts to resemble a man (during the teen years, when life is tough anyway). I'm a bit worried about it, but there's not much I can do. We haven't spoken in ten years because the nastiness she spews sucks the life out of me. :-(

[VotesForWomen]

66. i think that's because single mothers are forced to be strong (or maybe were strong to begin with)

and hence provide a better role model of a strong woman, and dispel a lot of the anti-feminist hysteria.

[Lost-in-FL]

8. IMO, Misogyny has ben perpetuated by religion

not by women.

[misanthrope]

10. Are all religions misogynistic?...

...If so, why?

Some early religions were more gynocentric. The Earth Mother model is ancient. Why do you think they have not flourished?

[Lost-in-FL]

12. But we do not see those early religions anymore.

Christianity and Islam are the two most practiced religions in the world and those two alone perpetuate the notion that women are inferior to man.

But this is just my opinion.

[misanthrope]

14. No religions other than those two perpetuate misogyny?**nm

**

[Lost-in-FL]

17. Yes...

Must do but the ones mentioned are the most practiced and the most influencial.

[alarimer]

15. In my opinion they are.

At least all varieties of the big three. I know less about the smaller ones so I will restrict it to these. Some sects of protestantism are more equitable certainly.

[Fridays Child]

16. Have you ever read "The Alphabet Versus the Goddess?"

It provides some interesting food for thought on the demise of goddess-based cultures.

[misanthrope]

18. Can you summarize for discussion's sake?**nm

**

[Fridays Child]

21. It examines the concurrent rise of the written word...

...and the extinction of the goddess in various early cultures and pantheons.

[misanthrope]

37. Didn't literacy and Western Civilization both spring...

...from the agrarian-based Old World cultures where women were more valued?

[Fridays Child]

47. Yes, and, therein, lies the rub, I guess you could say.

From the Amazon Editorial Review:

"Literacy has promoted the subjugation of women by men throughout all but the very recent history of the West," writes Leonard Shlain. "Misogyny and patriarchy rise and fall with the fortunes of the alphabetic written word."

That's a pretty audacious claim, one that The Alphabet Versus the Goddess provides extensive historical and cultural correlations to support. Shlain's thesis takes readers from the evolutionary steps that distinguish the human brain from that of the primates to the development of the Internet. The very act of learning written language, he argues, exercises the human brain's left hemisphere--the half that handles linear, abstract thought--and enforces its dominance over the right hemisphere, which thinks holistically and visually. If you accept the idea that linear abstraction is a masculine trait, and that holistic visualization is feminine, the rest of the theory falls into place. The flip side is that as visual orientation returns to prominence within society through film, television, and cyberspace, the status of women increases, soon to return to the equilibrium of the earliest human cultures. Shlain wisely presents this view of history as plausible rather than definite, but whether you agree with his wide-ranging speculations or not, he provides readers eager to "understand it all" with much to consider. --Ron Hogan

[misanthrope]

61. That makes the author's perspective sound similar to...

...former Harvard University president Lawrence Summers' and his comments on the lack of women in science and math-related fields. Wasn't Summers roundly rebuked for something similar in 2005?

Where does the difference lie between Shlain and Summers?

[Fridays Child]

62. I don't know what Summers said.

But, in any case, it's probably not realistic to compare and contrast some soundbites to an entire book's worth of premises, proposed and supported by Shlain. Really, if this subject is of as much interest to you as it seems to be, read the book. Whether you agree with Shlain, or not, you'll certainly find his work to be thought-provoking.

[Lost-in-FL]

20. Nice... Thank you! n/t

[VotesForWomen]

67. only the strong survive. males are more aggressive and willing to use violence/intimidation to forc

force compliance to their rules. it is evolution, pure and simple.

[Canuckistanian]

70. Many Native American religions and cultures were matriarchal

Or rather, matrilineal.

But it seems that the Indo-Europeans decided that religion is a man's domain only.

And it seemed to be enforced with a vengeance.

Too bad, really. It would have been good to see women in charge of religion. There MIGHT have been less bloodshed over the centuries.

[misanthrope]

71. Some had both...

...matriarchy and matrilineage.

It's been a while, but I believe the two Native American groups most "admired" by early European-Americans were pretty egalitarian.

The Cherokee were matrilineal with a very complex society and their women had many rights and privileges other than domestic duties. Not only did married women own property, but they also participated in both the fighting of wars and the Council of War and sat with the Civil Council of Peace. Lineage was traced through the women's clan.

The Women's Council was influential and had power over captives' lives.

The Cherokee also bore many of the hallmarks of European civilizations, including the development of literacy. Interesting that it didn't seem to result in the same patriarchy Shlain assigns to literacy.

The Iroquois, whose governing system has been credited as an inspiration for the framework of the United States, were unafraid of powerful women. The Iroquois consisted of five groups whose own collective name was the Longhouse. Each individual and distinct matrilineal group had one person who acted as representative chosen by women who sometimes held the position themselves. Women also retained the right to replace a representative who failed to meet expectations. One of the matrons in each clan presided over her group and with counterparts from other longhouses constituted the female leadership of a clan segment.

[Warpy]

19. Religion certainly tends to enforce it since most religions

were dreamed up by men with time on their hands and no useful work to do. You can tell what religions those are: male gods, male officials speaking for and to those gods, and lots of stupid and inconvenient rules, mostly geared toward controlling women.

Men also tend to blame women for their constant "need" for sex that goes unmet. Plus, there's that potty training thing a lot of them just never get over. Add to that the fact that there are a lot of men out there who mistake loving to use women for loving women, and it's a big, nasty mess.

The root of the problem is the "man as predator" mindset that sees all women as prey of one sort or another and sex as a demeaning act that diminishes the value of a woman as a human being. Some men just can't seem to respect any woman who'd let a man do "that" to her. Homophobia's part of this particular can of worms, but we won't go there right now.

Misogyny is deeply complex and deeply ingrained in both men and many women. It's going to take a great deal of time and conscious effort to undo the harm it does to half the human race every single day.

It's also not women's problem. We're just the ones who suffer from it.

[Karenina]

22. . .

Tell it like it is. :applause:

[Warpy]

34. I always do, but I usually get flamed for it

Thanks for the nice post.

[bettyellen]

24. i learned some facinating stuff about the tierra del fuegan indian tribal "beliefs" that illustrate

your points, and maybe take it a little (okay, a lot) further.
the Selkman and other Fuegan tribes mythology involved lots of gods/ demons/ shamen etc... the usual fear based stuff to keep you in line, right? sounds familiar so far.
but they had these initiation rituals for teen boys coming of age -the women are seperated away and the guys get together lots of body painting, big scary masks- imitating the scary gods. but then, they tell the boys- there are no real gods- we play the parts ourselves. we do it to scare the women and keep them in line. this is how it must be, they used to control us and now we control them. if you tell a woman the gods are a lie, we will kill you, and the women you have told. we will kill anyone who doesn;t uphold the myth.
one of the three tribes claimed their women at one point were so uppity- they killed them all and kept one teen girl alive who was naive. and started all over again with her. and if they have to, they'll do it again.
an amazing metaphor, i think. very similar to the Stepford thing, but not connecticut, quite the opposite.

[misanthrope]

36. "Man is predator" is hardwired into males...

...Men are R-selected. Women are K-selected.

[Warpy]

40. Rubbish.

There are tribal cultures where the concept is totally foreign.

[misanthrope]

42. So the fact...

...men can conceivably sire hundreds of offspring in a year while a woman can only manage to replicate once in most cases is "rubbish? "

Do you also believe that humans are inherently monogamous?

[Warpy]

43. Did you know that posts that begin with the word "so"

invariably erect strawman arguments?

Good try, no cigar.

[misanthrope]

44. Why the ad hominem?...

...I had no idea human gestation periods had dropped so low lately. Or is it that testes have shrunk to almost microscopic size across the species?

Human reproduction rates and methods aren't much in debate. It's a matter of science.

[Warpy]

56. Ad hominem, argument to the people, generally

means disparaging the speaker, not the speech.

Stop erecting strawmen and converse honestly and perhaps you'll be treated more civilly.

This advice is given in the spirit of Democratic unity.

[misanthrope]

57. Where's the strawman?...

...And I think the snarky comment on the wording of my post certainly qualifies as an ad hominem attack of sorts.

I take exception with your summation that men are designed for a different method of success in genetic replication and suddenly I'm inviting rude discourse?

[donsu]

53. baloney

nt

[mkultra]

11. initail childhood bonds mostly chemical

There is alot of evidence to support the theory that the initial bond created is related to the natural pitocin.

A mothers instinct to yield to this bond is healthy and natural. The reason mysogny still exists is because women will not change their own flats. Now go bake me some cookies.

[Fridays Child]

13. To whatever extent the mother in a relationship with a misogynist models for her child...

...co-dependent, enabling behaviors, there would likely be some associated effects. But the damaging behaviors modeled by the misogynist himself would have a greater effect on the child, in my opinion.

[misanthrope]

38. I see co-dependence marketed toward women...

...all the time. Nowhere else is it more prominent than in the string of silly romantic comedies and out-and-out bodice rippers Hollywood produces annually. Yet, lots of women still flock to those.

[Fridays Child]

46. Agreed.

It saturates most aspects of the culture, and Hollywood is not exempt.

[Lost-in-FL]

54. The same way power and violence is perpetuated all the time...

and marketed to young men to remind them that men rule the world.

[Sparkly]

28. I was with you until your question, lol

Most five year olds are not misogynists, so, no. It doesn't fall on the shoulders of women.

[misanthrope]

39. However, five-year-olds...

...most certainly exhibit prescience of culturally-accepted gender roles. They also exhibit predisposition toward fulfilling those in daily life. It is not only seen in their play and interactions with each other, but comes forward if you ask them questions.

[donsu]

48. but men rule - most boys see that and dump mommy

nt

[saltpoint]

50. Psychiatrists and psychologist use many constructs for the transition from

babyhood through childhood, adolescence, and on to adulthood.

Many, many others.

[Lorien]

64. That's all an illusion for the most part. I've even heard from beltway

insiders that Lynne Cheney is really the one ruling the country.

[donsu]

51. I come from a family society where the men do NOT ever touch

infants, toddlers unless absolutely necessary. nor speak to them unless necessary.


these families are considered normal american families. they don't even recognize what they do.

[margotb822]

59. Living in the past

One of my friends is in law school, and her's husband's boss' wife (I know) asked her how she planned to have a family with her career...two weeks ago. When my friend told her that it was none of her business, the woman said "well, my husband is your husband's boss, so I think it is." How bizarre!?! I think that women who hold these views are actively working against the advancement of women. How a family raises their children is up to them, so women who work shouldn't be judged negatively by other women!!

I am in the age group of people who are just marrying and starting families, but many of my male friends are eager to be involved in their children's lives. Maybe a good sign for the future...

[VotesForWomen]

65. women certainly do pass on negative perceptions of woman's value in society; the recognition of

this is nothing new. women have often been their own worst enemy since day one. look, they are taught these ideas from day one, and quite often their very survival and security depends on not challenged the established powers, and so many of them end up seeing which side their bread is buttered on and 'loving big brother' so to speak.

[Annces]

68. This post covers a lot of it

That the ways of women are what is not valued in our society. I think cycles are very hard to break, no matter how unequal they are.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2879932&mesg_id=2880796

[trusty elf]

69. At this late hour I'm tired and don't have anything constructive to add

to the discussion. I just wanted to share something I saw the other day (in Nancy, France).

I've heard of the glass ceiling, but this is ridiculous!