No, just because you have had/ or have a mental illness does not mean you can't own a gun.

[IsItJustMe]

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsindex.htm

NICS Rules for people who can't own a firearm


1) Persons who are aliens and are illegally or unlawfully in the United States

Criteria for Entry

The United States Immigration Naturalization Services (USINS) and state law enforcement have the authority to enter and update records for individuals who are aliens and are unlawfully and illegally in the United States.

2) Persons who have renounced their U.S. Citizenship

Criteria for Entry

The Department of State alone has the authority to enter and update records on persons who have renounced their United States citizenship.

3) Persons who have been adjudicated as a mental defective or have been committed to a mental institution

Criteria for Entry

The Department of Veteran Affairs, the Depart-ment of Defense, and state law enforcement have the authority to enter and update records on persons who have been adjudicated as mental defectives or have been committed to mental institutions.

4) Persons who have been discharged from the armed forces under dishonorable discharge conditions

Criteria for Entry

The Department of Defense and the U.S. Coast Guard have the authority to enter and update records on persons who have been discharged from the U.S. Armed Forces.

5) Persons who are unlawful users of or addicted to any controlled substance

Criteria for Entry

The Department of Defense, the U.S. Coast Guard, and state law enforcement have the authority to enter and update records on persons who have been unlawful users of or addicted to any controlled substance.

6) Persons who are federally disqualified when a record is not already included in NCIC, III, or the NICS Index

_________________________________________________________________________

I have seen quit a lot of ignorance on this board over the last couple of days regarding who can own a firearm. I have even read posts that insinuate that if a person has ever taken an anti-depressant should not be able to own a gun. Before we start concentration camps for people these folks, I thought some clarification might be in order.

[shireen]

1. thank you!!!

i've been concerned about the tone of some discussions too, and glad you're providing this clarification. :)

[IsItJustMe]

2. I find reactionary people scary. To me, it's the same type of mentality that allowed BushCo to

shread our constitutional rights of due process and privacy and start a war in Iraq in the aftermath of 9/11.

Something happens and everyone wants to mindlessly jump on the band wagon.

I have seen this pattern over the last couple of days here when it comes to this shooting and I felt a need for the post.

[Paladin]

3. Well, Thank God For That, Right, Sports Fans?

Let's have a show of hands---the night of the NIU slaughter, how many of you tossed and turned in bed, fretting about the possibility that the mentally ill might be denied their sacred Second Amendment right to own as many guns as they want by those reactionaries hiding over there in the shadows, looking over the blueprints for all those concentration camps they want to build?

I swear, sometimes you people make this too fucking easy.....

[IsItJustMe]

4. What an off-the-wall responce. The law is what it it. I didn't make it, so you need to go

somewhere else to spew your venom, or maybe you can use all that energy to change the laws if you don't like them.

[Paladin]

5. I Guess I Missed The Previous Thread You Did

You know, the one expressing sympathy and concern for those students at NIU that were killed or wounded last week. You know, those kids who undoubtedly thought they had a reasonable expectation of sitting in a college lecture hall without having a heavily armed psychotic stroll on stage and then seriously fuck up their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness with a rain of bullets.

I mean, if you did this thread about the rights of the mentally afflicted to have firearms, you must have done an earlier one on the plight of those victims. Right?

[IsItJustMe]

6. God, is that you?

You don't know me like that. Assume away.

[zanne]

8. We only know what you post and it isn't good. nt

[IsItJustMe]

19. I state the law. It is what it is. What did I say in my post that isn't true? I can't help it if

you read something into it that's not there, now can I?

[zanne]

7. Are you saying that mass shooting are committed by sane people?

Most of these people were never committed to an institution or had addiction problems. Do you want someone who is severely depressed to buy a gun? I don't. It's not oppression; it's a matter of safety for the depressed person as well as the public. It'a preventive measure.

[spoony]

9. Fanatics apparently read poorly

The point is that there are many gradients of depression and many many different kinds of mental illness and maybe, just flipping maybe, we shouldn't be rushing our way to the capitol to strip rights away from millions of Americans who aren't going to hurt anyone and are being scapegoated by the broad brush of zealots.

[zanne]

10. I'm a fanatic?

I don't have a leader who said they'd have to pry his gun "from his cold, dead hands". I think you need a primer on fanaticism.

[spoony]

12. If you think you need a "leader" to be a fanatic

I wouldn't go around suggesting primers for anyone else. And yes, from what I've read from you, you're an utter zealot on the issue.

[zanne]

17. From you, it's a compliment.

In a gun thread a few days ago, I was called an "annoying bitch". I still chuckle when I think about it!

[pitohui]

15. the original post is not well written

i can't tell what the OP really means to say either

there are certain mental illnesses where there is a very high risk of suicide, unfortunately, clinical depression is one of these diseases, i'm not sure why someone in treatment for clinical depression should be licensed to carry a firearm without some additional controls

i think in the case of some illnesses, it should be presumed that the person mustn't have a gun unless they can get back-up from their psychiatrist that they're safe and won't do harm to themselves or others

people with depression do have an elevated risk of hurting or killing themselves, i don't know of any psychologist will dispute this fact

mental illness by its nature involves a person who doesn't have an accurate picture of reality, unfortunately, when a person is handling a gun, an accurate picture of reality is a core virtue, the responsible gun owner needs to be a good decision maker or the gun could end up causing more harm than good

[spoony]

16. "mental illness by its nature involves a person who doesn't have an accurate picture of reality"

Oh, wonderful. A nice broad category to sweep any undesirables into. Few here, for example, would say that Republicans have an "accurate picture of reality." Are they mentally ill? Some say so. Should they be denied a right to own a gun, then? Others here say that religious people are mentally ill and don't have an "accurate picture of reality." How about people with anxiety disorders? Or sex addicts? All mentally ill.

Getting the point yet? You can't just take a whole group of people under some sweeping banner and take rights away from them.

[zanne]

18. Well, I do know that you just can't argue with crazy people. nt

[spoony]

20. What a contemptibly insipid reply

You've shown you can't argue with anyone. Not with arguments anyway.

[IsItJustMe]

13. In a perfect world no one would own a gun, if I had my way. But we are not living in a perfect

world, are we? Do you really want to start stripping away rights based on what medication a person takes?

It's already getting bad in this country, how safe do you really want to be? How much are you willing to give up for your little bit of safety?

And in giving up those freedoms, how long do you think it will take before it comes back, in some unforseen way, to kick you in the ass.

[proud2BlibKansan]

11. There are varying degrees of mental illness

This only makes sense.

[alarimer]

14. Depending on the mental illness, yes it should disqualify you from owning any weapons at all.

If the law says differently it needs to be changed. Some illnesses make you a danger to yourself and others, and should be grounds for disqualification. Every single one of these recent shooters has been mentally ill and somehow been able to obtain guns, legally or otherwise.

[shireen]

21. in defense of the OP....

> Paladin, post # 5. I Guess I Missed The Previous Thread You Did
>
> You know, the one expressing sympathy and
> concern for those students at NIU that were killed
> or wounded last week. You know, those kids who ...
> I mean, if you did this thread about the rights of
> the mentally afflicted to have firearms, you must
> have done an earlier one on the plight of those
> victims. Right?

His post was confined to a narrow issue, related to the recent shooting tragedy. He simply presented the facts regarding gun ownership laws to counteract the incorrect information that had been circulated in numerous other threads. The deep sympathy we all feel for the victims and their families goes without saying. To imply that the OP does not care about this human tragedy is reprehensible.


> zanne, post # 7. Are you saying that mass shooting are committed by sane people?

He never said that. All he did was state the law as it currently appears.


> Most of these people were never committed to an
> institution or had addiction problems. Do you want
> someone who is severely depressed to buy a gun? I don't.
> It's not oppression; it's a matter of safety for the depressed
> person as well as the public. It'a preventive measure.

First of all, people with clinical depression very very rarely physically harm other people. They only physically harm themselves.

You don't want someone who is severely depressed to own a gun? First, prove that he or she is severely depressed, if you can ...

When I read the OP, I was struck by the lack of specifics in defining "a mental defective". It also opens a can of worms about medical privacy issues, and questions like: 1) how do you define mental illness? 2) which categories of mental illness should be exempted from that law? 3) how would gun licensors go about collecting information about a person's state of mind to determine if he or she is permitted to own a gun?


> pitohui, #15. the original post is not well written

> i can't tell what the OP really means to say either

The shooting tragedy had sprouted confusing opinions about gun ownership laws in several DU threads. The OP writer was simply providing the facts to help people better understand firearms laws. That was all he wanted to convey.

> i think in the case of some illnesses, it should
> be presumed that the person mustn't have a gun
> unless they can get back-up from their
> psychiatrist that they're safe and won't do harm to
> themselves or others

Let's go through the steps involved.
1) Determine if each gun license applicant is mentally ill. How would you determine that without delving into their medical records?
2) If the applicant is deemed mentally ill, what are the criteria for determining if he or she is a public threat? Who makes those decisions, and do we trust them to do it right?
3) If the applicant is turned down, what's to stop him or her from acquiring firearms illegally?


> IsItJustMe, post #13. In a perfect world no one
> would own a gun, if I had my way. But we are not
> living in a perfect
> world, are we? .... Do you really want to start stripping
> away rights based on what medication a person takes?

Agreed. After almost 8 years of GWB, i have developed a profound distrust for government.


> It's already getting bad in this country, how safe
> do you really want to be? How much are you willing
> to give up for your little bit of safety?

I want to own a gun for personal safety reasons. It's not a guarantee that i will be protected from harm, but it's better than nothing. Women are particularly vulnerable to violent attacks. We have to take precautions that would never occur to most men.


> alarimer, post #14. Depending on the mental illness,
> yes it should disqualify you from owning any weapons
> at all.
> If the law says differently it needs to be changed. Some
> illnesses make you a danger to yourself and others, and
> should be grounds for disqualification. Every single one
> of these recent shooters has been mentally ill and
> somehow been able to obtain guns, legally or otherwise.

Unfortunately, we return to the practical issues in enforcing such requirements. How do we prevent certain kinds of mentally-ill people from owning guns? Are all of us willing to give up our medical privacy for the sake of a few isolated incidences? I don't mean to be callous about it; these shooting sprees are truly horrific event. But would you be willing to give up your medical privacy for it, knowing that it won't stop these tragic events because anyone who really wants a gun can get it illegally?

There are no easy answers for the kinds of gun control restrictions that are being suggested for mentally-ill people in this thread. Every time there's a shooting tragedy, this issue comes up as a knee-jerk reaction, but without any meaningful resolution, or understanding of the complexities of this issue.

I wish the perpetrators could have been intercepted before they unleashed that violence. Perhaps, for now, the best deterrence to these shooting tragedies is vigilance, especially by the family and friends of people who display high-risk behaviors. But that raises another problem: the diminishing community and family ties in our society as more and more people live increasingly isolated lives.

[spoony]

22. Great post, your last paragraph especially

One really does get a sense from the people who commit these acts that they feel stranded on a desert isle of sorts.

[IsItJustMe]

23. Thank you again. Rather than going off-the-wall, you read my post and interpreted it correctly. My

post was, in fact, very narrow in scope, for the very purpose of avoiding BS. Didn't work though.

For me, it's not about the issue of gun ownership by folks that have mental illness. It's about the lynch mob mentality, group think, that develops every time an horrible situation occurs.