My scary thought for the day....

[Javaman]

What if Obama or Hillary get in and nothing changes.

Our rights aren't restored, the economy plummets, torture continues, we continue our opened ended occupation in Iraq, moron* and his room full of dopes aren't impeached or prosecuted, etc?

Then what?

We here are all so hell bent on holding the repukes responsible, but what happens if we continue on this current path?

This is what scares me.

[Blue_In_AK]

1. I've been wondering that myself.

We need to make sure there are LOTS of truly progressive - not just name only - Democrats elected to Congress this year.

[madrchsod]

2. to much coffee today?

[scarletwoman]

3. Well, duh. That pretty much IS what's going to happen.

I worry about the people who think otherwise.

The Ruling Class is bipartisan, as is the MIC, as is the Foreign Policy Establishment, as is corporate globalization.

The REAL Powers that control things behind the scenes won't change at all.

Ask the sainted president Carter why weapons sales to Indonesia were INCREASED on his watch, while they were busy massacring the East Timorese.

Nothing is going to change unless we have deep institutional changes. And no member of these entrenched institutions is going to call for THAT.

sw

[gateley]

4. There are so many more people involved in the election process this time --

I'm hopeful that they remain interested and hound our representatives relentlessly if needed.

I've also wondered the same thing, though. It's almost as though we (or I, anyway) believe that in January 2009 some things will be magically rectified. Habeus corpus restored, other civil rights, rescinding the President's whatever things he has in place granting him Supreme authority.

Will that really happen, or will a taste of that power make some of these things actually seem reasonable? :scared:

[DemBones DemBones]

5. It is a frightening possibility. We assume

a Democrat would be better than McCain, but that's not saying much, is it?

I'm really tired of voting for the lesser evil.

[lligrd]

6. Then Maybe We Learn Our Lesson

and start voting some real progressives in.

[liberal N proud]

7. The powers that be must let us vote for them first

We did not get to vote for the ones we wanted to. It was narrowed down for us before we ever got word one in.

[lligrd]

9. True, But "We" Let The Powers That Be, Be

And we can take the power back. That was Dean's plan.

[liberal N proud]

17. That is where it must start

[truedelphi]

12. Ya all should know, what stops us from doing that : People need

To actually sign up to run for something.

If you are a Progressive and your life is in okay shape, run for something.

If a sick spouse or parent or child isn't taking up all your time, if you are not terminally shy, if you believe in fighting for a need your local community has that is not being actualized by those sworn to the Puppet Masters of your local political grid, then go and run for office.

One big bad difference between the Repugs and the Dems is that the Repugs will put up ANYBODY as a candidate, and the Dems expect perfection - a Master's degree, a six figure income or a decades long position as a grassroots activits.
Then we wonder why it is the Repugs that hold the power.

It is one thing in our power to change.

[pitohui]

18. but it isn't in our power to change, we DO have to be perfect

if a democrat gets a blowjob it's news and outrage for years

if a republican hires a boy toy to visit him at the white house 200 times then it's all fun and games and we're all adults here and the press fully understands they need their privacy

we are simply not judged by the same standards, i have a GOP friend who is in public office (state rep right now), the things i know of going on in his life -- if i had that going on in my life and ran for office, i'd be crucified and torn from limb by limb and not even the pieces left for the feral cats to mop up -- and it just wouldn't be that hard for the media to get the dirt on this guy, except, whoa, his father is powerful in local/state media and they just keep a lid and don't report the real truth about this guy's activities

you can't yell at good people for not wanting to run for office when good progressive people are required to be nuns and the other side can have anything in their past, up to and including a wife who ran over and KILLED an ex

until we get control of mainstream media, don't expect your average person who doesn't want to be slimed to stand for public office, it just seems sooo not worth it

IOKIYAR is not just a funny punchline, it's reality

[truedelphi]

24. there is some truth in what you say but then again, Look at

Debra Bowen - she went up against the entire will of the Republican machinery in California and the shills in the press and managed (through grassroots activists) to become the Secretary of State in California.

I am sure this happening has sent chills down the spines of the Repugs - they want those voting machines to be electronic.

But she did get in!

[earth mom]

25. The corporate media just kills those candidates off- Kucinich, Edwards, Gore too, if running.

Look to France if you want to see a country where the government fears it's people.

Here in the U.S., the people are afraid of the government even though they work FOR US!!! :grr:

Edited to add,

After seeing all the Hillary & Obama bullshit around DU the past few months, I'm really starting to see that those people will get the government they deserve.

And they will scream to high heaven in 2009 when they see there is NO difference and that NOTHING has changed.

I won't find satisfaction in that because we ALL lose.

[Adsos Letter]

8. That thought has crossed my mind many times...

if the restrictions/inroads on our liberties remain unaddressed or somehow coopted into a "progressive" (in name only) cause, then we exist with the same loss of rights.

[Journeyman]

10. "Power is more easily grabbed than relinquished. . ."

I first commented on this fear back in early 2004 and have repeated my concerns often through the years. Nothing's happened so far to ease my fear.

From an early 2006 post (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2672964#2672983) . . .


Whoever takes over, my hope is they will want to dismantle the illegal structure BushCo's erected.

Power is more easily grabbed than relinquished.

As recipients of a political reality altered beyond anything the wildest thinkers could have imagined just a few short years ago, it will take a remarkable will for anyone to revoke it, let alone strive to revert it to what it was before. Certainly, I see I quick return to some aspects of "normality," but the allure of unbridled power will remain and, despite readily accomplished cosmetic improvements, power's seduction will be a Siren song of indeterminate appeal.

Yet another reason for us all -- Democrats and Republicans -- to choose very wisely in the coming elections.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. Same here. *hugs*

[ixion]

13. That is exactly what will happen

we'll still have:

a bogus 'war' on drugs

a bogus 'war' on terror

the unPATRIOTic act will still exists, as will the MCA.

Going to the Airport will still suck a**

and on and on.

They may close down GITMO, although that's not a given.

[Rosemary2205]

14. 3/4 of DU will give them exactly 1 month to save the planet.

if the whole world isn't perfected within the first 30 days then DU will turn on them instantly. They did it to Saint Al and HE didn't even get a chance to try (and to a lesser extent Kerry). I think they gave Pelosi and Reid about 4 days.

Of course I exagerate (only slightly). I have no idea what DUer's expect. If either Clinton or Obama get all the way to the White House it will likely be by a small margin. they will never have a mandate, they will never have the MSM, they won't have the supremes and they may or may not have the house and or senate by the barest of margins. At best, they may be able to change Iraq from the 100 yr plan to the 5 more yrs plan. At best they may be able nudge the clunky wheels of government just a hair toward the middle class. No matter what they do, the economy will get worse before ANYONE can make it better - and no President can do much of anything about that, other than keep yakking from the pulpit until America starts demanding better laws from the house and senate.

[pitohui]

15. there will always be people who enjoy snatching defeat from the jaws of victory

don't be one of those people

why don't you give hillary or obama a chance to get sworn in before you crap all over them for not saving the planet by noon last thursday?

[Perry Logan]

16. We liberals are worriers.

Maybe not all of us. But it's a strong streak in our tribe.

[Adsos Letter]

21. Nobody in this thread has done that...

I read this discussion as the larger issue of the temptations to corruption of holding power. Lockean liberalism, which is the primary philosophy informing the creation of our republic, viewed power as the constant enemy of Liberty, hence, the separation of powers. However, Bushco's broad expansion of the theory of the unitary executive have thrown this system out of balance.

We have to hope that our next president will reject *s moves, and restore a proper balance, otherwise we must insist upon it.

[warren pease]

19. Imo, the election has already been stolen...

But this kind of election theft just required that people turn their televisions to any of the conventional mass media news outlets -- notably Fox, CNN or MSNBC -- find a political talk show or panel discussion or rant fest, and internalize the labels attached to some of this year's presidential candidates: "controversial," "unelectable," "unconventional," "goofy," "loser," "weird," "outside the American mainstream," "radical." The candidates not so labeled are, by definition, the serious contenders and therefore the only ones we need to watch.

As a result, we're now down to two corporatists and a Strangelovian loon. Corporate mass media were kind enough to choose these awful people for us on orders from their overlords at GE, Disney, News Corp, Viacom et al.

Through manipulation of voter attitudes by mass media, status quo corporatists and oligarchs can't really lose. This outcome may not meet the usual standard for election theft, but the results speak for themselves. Our ruling aristocracy has hijacked another critical election cycle, and they didn't even need electronic vote switching, voter caging, voter roll purging, deceptive mailers, stolen or destroyed ballots, access to proprietary source code, hacking for the GOP or simple understaffing in progressive precincts.

So yeah, I'm inclined to expect more of the same. If not, somebody at a very high level in the power structure is going to be dealt with pretty harshly.


wp

[walldude]

20. We read the Declaration of Independance

and get to work..

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world."

[Adsos Letter]

22. Well, I agree that the Founders would have expected that from us...

...but we haven't managed to find the will for it yet; unless, of course, you mean a failure of the up-coming administration to correct the wrongs perpetrated on American Liberties...

[earth mom]

23. Hillary and Obama are STATUS QUO.

That's why so many of us are upset that Edwards quit. We are SO very very screwed. :argh:

[blues90]

26. I don't expect anything to change

Where would either begin ?

By this point in our short history if there was a true democracy and the people mattered at all then we should already have a society without poverty and racism .

The fact is we have gone further back and this is not like the depression era since the power shift has alot more control and better ways of holding on to control .

Society is dependant on many more things these days than ever before , people were at least capable of living off the land to a point where now most people can't get through a day without some sort of support .

Change my ass . It is impossible to know what the intentions of any candidate is . This is a surreal game not reality .

People sit back and watch these candidates as if they are super power gods when they are profile and theater with signs and slogans no different that any advertisment .

I watch Hillary do her thing and Obama run up the steps shirt sleeves rolled up to grab the mic and walk back and forth across a long runway and I can't take any of this serious , if I did I would consider myself insane .

This is their own personal battle to win and has nothing to do with changing this country .

I have to ask myself a few things . If either were so very concerned with the people and these issues have been clear for years now and both have shown how capable they are at raising millions of dollars in weeks then why have neither ever applied this same energy to gather people together for a cause such as NOLA or the Vets who have no where to go .

Why does all hinge soley on their voting records ?

If they had spent some of their time off during the past few years to support a cause then the people would know if they were serious .

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. I think you could be right

so does Greg Palast.