Any theories as to the real reason why there is no military draft?

[Angry Mollusk]

Looking at the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, one would think with the number of troops being stretched to the breaking point, and enlistments being at an all time low- it would be logical for the reinstitution of the draft. I oppose the draft, but I suspect for different reasons the right wing opposes the draft- they oppose it for political reasons.

The right wing dismisses the draft, saying that that would bring in the bottom of the barrel types- yet isn't that what they are doing by dropping age , crime record and mental health restrictions on those who enlist? Quite a few people who fought in wars past who were drafted distinguished themselves, and were hardly bottom of the barrel, so the draft unto itself does not bring in sub par recruits..

I suspect there is no draft because public opinion of the war would change overnight- A good percentage of the people who favor the war have no intentions of fighting it themselves- they want other peoples kids to fight and die- But if the chickenhawks or their kids are at risk to be drafted, watch their song change overnight....
As a result, troops are serving over 5 tours in combat- My friend's son is on his fifth tour, and he's gone beyond the point of battle fatigue......
Will Bush use the troops we have until they're all dead?
It's as if they are all on a conveyor belt to a sausage machine, that will grind them to hamburger....

I'm just curious why the right wing is also strongly opposed to the draft- I think the reasons they give are different from what is in fact reality.

In the ultra slim chance McCain wins- he WILL expand the war, no doubt into Iran. How will he get new recruits?

The best solution to this dilemma is to BRING THE TROOPS HOME!!!!

[Trajan]

1. I think it is primarily because of the negative impact it would have ...

on public opinion ..... That is what I used to think at any rate ...

Lets see what this thread brings ....

[valerief]

2. Bush doesn't need a draft. He bought his own private army, Blackwater.

The U.S. Gestapo. The Minute Men in Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here."

[Angry Mollusk]

7. Just pray Bush doesn't replace the stateside National Guard with the Blackwater SS

That's a frightening prospect- I could envision a scenario where all the National Guard troops are sent into the Middle east, and contracted Backwater personnel take their place stateside..Based on Blackwater's past contempt for law and decency, they would almost be Gestapo like in their behavior.....

[The Straight Story]

3. It is being saved up for the next big issue to come along

in 2010 :)

[gristy]

4. not politically tenable

That's the reason. It's also the real reason.

[merh]

5. For one, they couldn't claim that our troops want to be there

it would take the volunteer out of the volunteer army and this admin and their babbleheads like to say that the troops are proud to be there, they signed up to serve and they want to be there.

The other reason would be a draft would affect more people, the negatives of the war would become personal. Career military and their families do accept a great deal of heart ache, it is part of the job, they know that.

Draft would have a negative impact on folks that don't want to be, a more cross section of the nation. Including the rich folks (serving in the guard doesn't get you out of duty these days.)

[flvegan]

6. Cheaper to outsource.

No liabilities, just write a check.

[krispos42]

16. Not cheaper, but more palatable politically

We have about 50,000 or so Blackwater-type armed mercenaries running around in Iraq that get four times what the average GI gets paid.

So for the same money as we're spending on "security contractors" we could probably put an extra 150,000 troops in Iraq. But those would have to be drafted.

The 2004 Republican party platform specifically states that they fully support the all-volunteer army. That means that unless hordes of gun-toting Red Chinese swarm into California, there ain't gonna be any draft.

Republicans swear that "winning" in Iraq is absolutely mandatory to our national security. They are willing to spend the borrowed money from our grandchildren but are not willing to take the political heat for a draft to get the numbers and duration in Iraq to police and secure the country. So, domestic politics trumps national security.

But remember, Obama's the traitor because he won't wear a flag pin every day.

:eyes:

[flvegan]

18. Yes, but a paycheck to Blackwater, etc is a one time deal.

Let's get a little crazy with this.

From the time a soldier has dry ink on his/her enlistment to the time he/she is injured in combat, there's a lot of fees/costs. From training and square footage to toilet paper, light bulbs and a paycheck (not to mention benefits both paid and pending). He/she gets injured, loses a leg. We'll spend a couple million from soup to nuts on that soldier. Granted, it's money well spent. Our soldiers deserve every benefit. We send a check to Blackwater for one of their goons, that's it. They lose a leg, no bennies nor retirement from us. That's the end of the check.

Salary is a big deal, but it's not the only big-ticket item in the cost of putting a human in the occupation.

[krispos42]

20. Hmmmm...

There is an strong element of truth to that.

It would depend on the number of GIs being lured to the Blackwater types, I guess. A fair number of them are ex-US military.

My fear is that Blackwater is doing to the military what the lobbyists are doing to the Congress and various federal high-level bureaucrats.

Shit, I'll bet Blackwater and others try to recruit directly from the active-duty soldiers they work side-by-side with in Iraq!!!


Son of a bitch! Of course they are!


:banghead:


This occupation is killing our country on yet another level now.

[Lasher]

23. Blackwater has to buy light bulbs and toilet paper too.

But still, labor cost loading would be more significant for military personnel. For example, I doubt if Blackwater puts their new hires through 4 months of training.

You mentioned the most significant military personnel cost beyond salaries: Veterans' benefits. But this administration cares nothing about creating a new generation of veterans who will be entitled to VA benefits. Most of those costs will show up later, to be a problem for other administrations. If we have learned anything about Stupid and his cronies, it is that they are inclined to create problems for others to bear.

And so, looking at just short term costs, I believe a Blackwater mercenary would be more expensive. But President Cheney loves to use them. Why? Rigid ideology (everything is better when it's done in the private sector) and opportunities to further enrich their cronies.

[Ytzak]

8. The draft woke the youth of the 60's and eventually brought...

an end to the war, an end to Johnson, and even made Nixon's life a living hell. A draft means that the cost of the war in lives is spread more evenly throughout society. Bush and those who want to continue the war do not want the public to care. (The surge and all the fake positive or simply missing news is a means of getting Americans to forget the war.) A draft means that all American's who are eligible or have children/relatives eligible for the draft own the war. They are interested, and offended when their kids come home in a box. It means that the youth will be force to do something they don't want to do and will force them to become active in politics to make their voice heard. The last thing this administration wants is American's to take ownership of this war as a society. I mean, damn, if they imitate the draft they might as well raise taxes to pay for it.

[SoCalDem]

9. PRIVATE CONTRACTORS + money..

The jobs that contractors do now, used to be done by the grunts..the new recruits.. It was part of their indoctrination..

In order to continue to attract recruits, they must feel like they are getting important training, for a fantastic career...peeling potatoes & washing dishes is not part of the plan anymore..

The actual draft had to end because in peacetime, the plan was to downsize the whole military, so they could beef up the bottom lines of all the hungry contractors..and of course the new lean-mean military would appeal to the hard-core types who really wanted to kill-kill-kill..

Drafts tend to "equalize" the military. There are likely to be ALL kinds of young men going into a draft military...readers, thinkers, poets, artists, musicians, athletes along with the hell-raiser crazies.. the milder ones tend to mellow the others, and they often are the same ones who will "tell" when something really bad happens...(see: my lai massacre)

Our "new military" wants the loose cannons, and if they cannot recruit enough of them, there is always Blackwater et al..

With the economy slipping, there is still a ready supply of dead-enders who are from small town rural America, too, so there are many young people who get swept up in the whole thing because they hope to get money for college, or to learn a trade..some make it back..and many do not..:(

[Warren Stupidity]

25. Bingo!

The outsourcing of the military was one of the prime objectives of the Bush regime, and that is in fact Mission Accomplished.

[MiniMe]

10. Because if the draft does come because * broke our military, it will be

blamed on the dems.

[TreasonousBastard]

11. One big lesson from Viet Nam was about the draft, and...

Viet Nam is a big reason we don't have one any more.

Back then, the draft was kinda left over from WWII and Korea, with some thought about how we might need a real Army with all those nasty Reds running around the world. We ended up using it in 'Nam, though, and at some point the public, even the right, got pretty fed up with the whole thing. And, the generals hated what it brought in-- a bunch of people pissed off at being "losers" in the lottery of life. They like kids who don't give them any shit.

At this point, many anti-war lobbying groups regularly poll Congress about the draft, and just about all of them are scared shitless at having to go back to home and explain to the voters how they brought the draft back. 'Specially with Iraq still in full swing.

In the future, there may be another real Pearl Harbor that will mobilize the people for war, but 9/11 wasn't the one that the few draft proponents were looking for.

[provis99]

12. the military doesn't want the draft

They want volunteers who will follow orders because they signed a contract; they don't want the military full of people who don't want to be there. They must be pressuring the Bush administration pretty fiercely to ensure they don't have to deal with unruly draftees in their midst.

[Captain Angry]

15. That's a big part of it.

I know that my dad went bonkers last time a draft idea was floated. He was upset because the draft had been talked about due to poor retention numbers. If you won't pay people to be in harms way, they will leave when their service is completed. The people who enjoy that kind of work can get 5-20 times the pay as a private contractor.

Don't use the draft as a way to keep wages low for a dangerous job.

[catnhatnh]

13. They are protecting the next generation ...

...of republican politicians from the stigma of having a nickname like Richard "five deferments" Cheney....

[2Design]

14. they are recruiting worldwide and offering money or citizenship n/t

[AndyTiedye]

17. If McCain Gets sElected, He Will Start Up the Draft Right Away

More wars to start, more countries to occupy, and we gotta stay in Iraq for 100 years don't ya know.

I suspect there is no draft because public opinion of the war would change overnight

Support for the war is so low that it could hardly go much lower. This war is as unpopular as the Vietnam war was.

A good percentage of the people who favor the war have no intentions of fighting it themselves

Most of them are too old anyway.

they want other peoples kids to fight and die- But if the chickenhawks or their kids are at risk to be drafted, watch their song change overnight....

For the ones who still support the war, it is the new Crusade, and they would be all to happy to see their kids forced into it. (Their kids may not be).

[Thothmes]

30. If he does he will be abetted in the endevor by

a Democratically controlled Congress. Who do you think will get the blame in the next election cycle two years down the road.

[AndyTiedye]

35. We'll Get the Blame Regardless. The Repiglickin' Media Will Make Sure of That

Even if McCain does it by executive order.

[TahitiNut]

19. Bottom line? Pervasive view of government as "other."

Whether left or right, one underlying theme predominates: that the government is "them" and separate from the people. We have permitted an overwhelming predominance of rhetoric and paradigms that rest on the "we vs. them" notion. Whether it's "drown government in a bathtub" or "they can't take my son" or the idea of "servitide" to "them" instead of self, we've psychologically abandoned our commitment to self-governance. Having done so, it is my opinion that we deserve the worst that happens. This attitude is common on DU. We don't deserve a democracy that we're not willing to hold onto.

[Kitty Herder]

32. The government sets itself apart from and above the populace when

it creates unpopular wars of aggression. Of course people are unwilling to die for something that has nothing to do with them and was decided upon by people who don't give a crap what they think.

We need to take our govt. back and never, ever let it go again. If the people had owned our government all along, the war in Iraq would never have happened.

[truedelphi]

21. For starters, the last time we had a full fledged draft- people took to the streets & stayed

There until the notion of a draft "lottery" kicked in.

Same thing would happen now - maybe even worse, as the economy is collapsing and people are very frustrated

[Blue State Bandit]

22. The denigration of the National Guard.

That way when a natural disaster hits, McBush can send in private security forces like Blackwater. They could use the emergency to back-door a private police force, thus circumventing state soverntey and Pose-Comitatus in one shot.

[Ghost Dog]

24. What war? Did anyone declare a war? Did your congress

formally approve one?

There was an illegal invasion and there is now therefore an illegal occupation facing resistance; an occupation just barely now sanctioned by the UN recognising force majeure (the facts on the ground) and attempting to get the invaders to accept their legal duties and obligations towards the invaded and occupied (which is still mostly not happening).

[Recursion]

26. They want to merc this out

A nonprofit military goes against their principles anyways.

[annabanana]

27. They would RATHER empty the coffers into the pockets of Blackwater, et al

because a broke government is a weak government... and a weak government can't demand redress!! They want the best equipped fighting force to be under the control of the private sector.

That why.

[Tesha]

28. People might get uppity about The War if they had to actually contribute blood to it.

They're contributing plenty of treasure now, but most
Americans are too stupid to realize this.

Tesha

[baldguy]

29. If there was a draft there would be no more wars.

[Thothmes]

31. No true

Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam all prove that having a draft does not stop a war, it makes it so you can have a really big one.

[raccoon]

38. What you said, except for one thing. During the Civil War, a good many

of the Union soldiers were immigrants, Irish and others.

[Thothmes]

40. A lot of those soldier that came off the boat

were hired as substitutes by those that could afford to pay a substitute to take their place in the army ranks. The Irish were dead set against being drafted to fight to free slaves. Remember the Draft Riots in New York City in the summer of 1863. Mostly Irish

[Llewlladdwr]

33. Actually, the real reason isn't that hard to understand.

Most people don't know but there are limits as to how many personnel each service may have. These limits are set by Congress and are determined and voted on each year during the budgeting and appropriations process. DoD is not allowed to exceed those manning caps.

And the fact of the matter is that DoD is fully staffed. Whether we here like it or not the military is having little trouble meeting their recruiting goals for initial enlistments and re-enlistments are at historically high levels.

So basically, there's absolutely no need for a draft. Why force people to join if it means you're going to have turn away volunteers?

Now if Congress raises manning levels this may all change. But right now we have all the troops we legally can.

[Kitty Herder]

34. I didn't know that. So, that's another reason they like to

use mercenaries like Blackwater. They can add troops that way, without actually adding official troops and get around the maximum numbers allowed by congress.

[leftofthedial]

36. they want to perpetuate chaos--that is "win" for them

actually staffing the military might result in a military victory. In the case of Iraq, a military "victory" would mean an end to the most egregious chaos, but would mean about a million and a half soldiers in a perpetual state of occupation by force.

Stability, even by force, would be a disaster for the neocon agenda. Besides, they'd *have* to raise taxes to cover the cost of expanding the military. No one will loan them the money for that.

[CK_John]

37. The RW will totally break the military and then make the DEM do it and blame us. n/t

[halobeam]

39. I would like to know if Hillary or Obama were asked if they would consider a draft.

If they were asked, what did they say? If they weren't asked, then I want to know why they weren't asked. I have kept my eye out for this, but haven't seen anything.