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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:37 PM
Original message
The answer to economic problems -- and it's not more jobs.
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 05:23 PM by IMModerate
I was invited to watch the recent lunar eclipse by a friend I know from a local meetup. He's an amateur astronomer and has a serious telescope. During the umbra phase of the eclipse we switched to looking at Saturn and got into a discussion of economics. (OK, I know this is excruciatingly nerdy. :P) We found we had a confluence of some radical economic ideas that he calls "automation socialism."

So he sent me a link to a blog of a friend of his, who shares our theories, and I thought it might interest some at DU. The basic premise is that in our time, productivity increases, but work decreases. And the benefits of production go to fewer people. In short, there's not enough work to go around. (That's my slogan.) Here are some excerpts from the blog:

Edit: Testing the limits: Suppose all the work could be done by machines. How would we make a living?



<snip>

But we really shouldn't be trying to increase wages or to make people dependent on wages, what we should be doing moving to a situation where the share of capital ownership is more evenly distributed, where every individual is "a capitalist". As automation and computerization, etc., play a larger and larger role in production, individuals have to share ownership of the "means of production". That is the single and only possible solution to the long term economic problems that will be faced in a progressive and technologically advancing economy. The road that some places in Europe have taken, especially France, has been to limit the advancement of technology in order to preserve the role of the worker, thereby limiting profits and productivity. This does preserve a more equal distribution of wealth, but it also limits economic growth and the creation of new wealth.

In America we have taken the opposite tract; we have allowed and encouraged the advancement of technology and productivity, but we have completely left the worker out of the loop and thus all of the rewards have gone to a relative few capital owners. This is why we find ourselves in an economic predicament today and until this fundamental problem is addressed the American economic is going to continue to suffer the problem of increasing productivity while the working classes aren't able to drive demand for goods because they have too little income.

There really is no reason why an economy in which productivity is increasing should have any type of recession. The only reason we are having economic problems is because the fruits of the labor of workers is not being paid to those workers, and because the fruits of capital ownership are not being shared by the population. Over the past 30 years the cost of education and skill acquisition has gone up dramatically. Worker knowledge and productivity has gone up dramatically, and mechanical efficiency has gone up dramatically. That all means that we can produce more with less effort today then we could in the past, and workers have been key to these4 advances, even shouldering the higher cost of education themselves, but there has been zero payoff to workers. All of the fruits of these advances over the past 30 has gone to capital owners, and capital ownership has remained largely consolidated in the hands of a small few. Thus, those small few have reaped the rewards that have been created by millions of workers in America and around the world.

<snip>

The key to remember is this. As long as productivity is increasing, there is no real reason why any economy should ever go into decline. The only reason for an economic decline during a period of increasing productivity is an improper distribution of the fruits of productivity, such that all of the fruits go to one small group, thereby leaving the other group unable to sustain or improve their standard of living, in spite of the increasing capacity of the economy to enable such progress.

more...




I may have some differences about implementing these ideas. For instance, one of them is mandating a twenty hour work week. But in any case, I thought there would be some interesting reactions here. (Or it might sink like a metallic asteroid.:shrug:)

--IMM
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. yeah, the rich grab it all and won't share.
Bring on the tumbrils. My knitting is at the ready.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Tumbrils, eh?
You sent me to the dictionary. :hi:

--IMM
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thank you, tricoteuse.
Madame Defarge.
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. A twenty hour work week?
My boss would love that.

Any system that requires the arch-capitalists to be less greedy will have to be implemented at gunpoint.

Not that I am suggesting such a thing.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yep. We need to distribute the work.
And you would get full pay. That gives you the rest of the week to spend the money and stimulate the economy.

--IMM
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
25. Or as the Italians put it--
Lavorare meno! Lavorare tutti!

Italian is so much more operatic and revolutionary, no? Can't you see the banners flying?
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. There's an old quip that communism was the best thing to happen to workers...
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 05:33 PM by JHB
...as long as they didn't live under it.

(Translation for those who need it: Big Capital is most likely to work with workers when the alternative is losing everything.)

I'm not yearning for "The Revolution" either, but I'm more than willing to propose "confiscatory" tax rates on the very wealthy as the starting point of negotiations.
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elizfeelinggreat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. if only
"I'm not yearning for "The Revolution" either, but I'm more than willing to propose "confiscatory" tax rates on the very wealthy as the starting point of negotiations."

Let's start with the Bush family in direct relation to their profiting from their family's political connections and then every person that ever signed a PNAC project paper. Anyone who says they'll just leave if we tax them, GOOD RIDDANCE!

I hope someday the greed machine that is the PNAC will be exposed in its full glory. And every time Bill Kristol is on TV he is introduced/outed as its co-founder.

After the election of George W. Bush in 2000, a number of PNAC's members or signatories were appointed to key positions within the President's administration:

Elliott Abrams
Richard Armitage
John R. Bolton
Dick Cheney
Eliot A. Cohen
Seth Cropsey
Paula Dobriansky
Francis Fukuyama
Zalmay Khalilzad
I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby
Richard Perle
Peter W. Rodman
Donald Rumsfeld
Randy Scheunemann
Paul Wolfowitz
Dov S. Zakheim
Robert B. Zoellick


signatories list from wikipedia:

* Elliott Abrams
* Kenneth Adelman
* Richard V. Allen
* Richard L. Armitage
* Gary Bauer
* Jeffrey Bell
* William J. Bennett
* Jeffrey Bergner
* John R. Bolton
* Ellen Bork
* Rudy Boschwitz
* Linda Chavez
* Eliot Cohen
* Seth Cropsey
* Midge Decter
* Paula Dobriansky
* Thomas Donnelly
* Nicholas Eberstadt,
* Hillel Fradkin
* Aaron Friedberg
* Francis Fukuyama
* Frank Gaffney
* Jeffrey Gedmin
* Reuel Marc Gerecht
* Charles Hill
* Bruce P. Jackson
* Eli S. Jacobs
* Michael Joyce
* Donald Kagan
* Robert Kagan
* Zalmay Khalilzad
* Jeane Kirkpatrick
* Charles Krauthammer
* William Kristol
* John Lehman
* I. Lewis Libby
* Tod Lindberg
* Rich Lowry
* Clifford May
* Joshua Muravchik
* Michael O'Hanlon
* Martin Peretz
* Richard Perle
* Daniel Pipes
* Norman Podhoretz
* Peter W. Rodman
* Stephen P. Rosen
* Donald Rumsfeld
* Randy Scheunemann
* Gary Schmitt
* William Schneider, Jr.
* Richard H. Shultz
* Stephen J. Kantany
* Henry Sokolski
* Stephen J. Solarz
* Vin Weber
* Leon Wieseltier
* Marshall Wittmann
* Paul Wolfowitz
* R. James Woolsey
* Dov Zakheim
* Robert B. Zoellick


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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. supply-side absurdity
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. 'Splain
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. the final paragraph postulates infinite growth in productivity
without taking into account diminishing and finite resources and stagnant demand.

It also ignores the fact that the purpose of capitalism is specifically NOT to share with workers the benefit of their work. If the benefit accrues to the workers, it's socialism.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I don't think so.
I don't see where it says infinite growth in productivity. My remark about the 20 hour work week presumes a relative flatness of production, with the work being distributed. You assume no changes in technology, and no depreciation of material goods. You're also neglecting food and fuel production, and delivery of services. And then there's the environmental restoration that will be necessary in the future.

It's not capitalism, but there must be capital, meaning the means of production. Note that my friend's term for it is automation socialism. That should be a clue.

I don't see how you could call this supply side, even if the last paragraph is the only one you read, and that's what it sounds like to me.

--IMM
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Whomever has lots of money must be
watched over...REGULATED! Greed must be regulated. Rules must be applied to Greed. I think there should be a limit on Greed. And instead of calling it that horrid word, TAAAAAAAAAAAAXES, I say we call it Sharing....and all of the hypocritical Xtians can do as Jesus said: SHARE!

Another idea I have had about Social Security....after all this is an INSURANCE PROGRAM, right? Well, look at all the insurance a citizen carries....car, house, medical, renters, life...we pay all of this money for insurance, right? Yet most of us never use it. We have spent all of this money and got nothing back. And usually we are very glad to NOT have used the insurance...who wants a car wreck, the house to burn down, get sick, etc. No one complains about it being money down the drain, right?

As far as I am concerned, SS should be looked at the same way. Why should someone who was lucky enough to reach retirement age with millions in the bank get a piddling little SS check??? She/he should be happy as a clam NOT to need Social Security. So her/his checks go back into the system for those who really do need it.

I know the greedy and selfish citizens wouldn't like it. They are the same ones who complain about paying TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAXES. And when they do, I tell him: "Just give me your fucking money and you won't have to worry about TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAXES anymore."

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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. When people complain about taxes, I ask them if they want to switch places.
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 10:14 PM by IMModerate
Somehow they never want that. It would be such a great deal for them. I'm paying very little in taxes these days. :(

--IMM
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. At least your money is not supporting the war!!
I hope you're putting lots of money into a 401k so you're not paying taaaaaaaxes.

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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. I wish.
I'm looking for work. I've spent what I had saved. I attribute at least some of my difficulties to the war.

Though my challenge to change places was during better times for me.

--IMM
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Good luck with the job hunt...I know
it's pretty bad out there. I'm in the same boat as you. The unemployment runs out soon.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kick -- and how about one more rec?
Please.

--IMM
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
11. This socialist approves
:)
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. Intriguing...
I will need to read more of this blog. Thanks for posting this! KR&B
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. K&R - nt
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. Twenty hour work week???
but... what would I do with myself for the other 20 hours??????

Seriously though, what do you plan to do with workaholics?
Will there be a 12-step program?
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I don't think that will be a problem.
People who work for themselves can do what they want. Hobbies, parenting, education, creative activities could take more time. New industries will crop up to take care of the increased leisure, which people will have more money to enjoy. Perhaps there will be a balance with those who don't care to work. You could spend some time volunteering at a school, hospital, or community center. Psychologists will be available to help. :)

Hypothetically, what if you had robot slaves to tend to your needs, or what would you do if you won the lottery? People have been able to deal with these "problems" through history.

--IMM
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Forgive me but I must know...
are you an Asimov fan by chance?
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I've only read about 120 of his books.
A real fan would have read all 300. :)

--IMM
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. They could start their own businesses
Rules on hours probably would not apply to sole proprietorships.
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El Pinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. As big business defines it, "productivity" is getting MORE work for LESS money.
Whenever a company offshores 3000 jobs so that the work can be done for pennies by third-world peons, that's a "productivity gain".

When they cut benefits, pensions, etc. "productivity gain". Replace union workers with cheaper hourly ones or full-timers with contract workers, "productivity gain".

Anyone who thinks "productivity gains" translate to better living standards for working people is a fool.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
30. Lots of fools out there -- that's how we get a George Bush.
--IMM
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Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. "an improper distribution of the fruits of productivity" the seeds of the Russian Revolution
Funny how things just keep repeating themselves.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. That's true. When will we ever learn?
If we are truly human, poverty and misery should not be our motivator.

--IMM
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bbgrunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
24. Jeremy Rifkin wrote an interesting book about
10 years ago called "The End of Work" which talked about the need for fewer and fewer workers. Essentially suggesting that we are creating a world filled with "useless eaters". As this happens, distribution becomes THE issue--either redistribute or find a way to get rid of the surplus labor.

I guess those with the dough don't want to share. I suppose that is why we are being poisoned by our food, fed destructive drugs, anesthetized by endless media distractions video games and consumerism, tasered in the streets, and told to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps.

Requiring a twenty hour work week won't solve this problem. It will just mean that more people will have to share a smaller paycheck as long as we allow the bulk of returns to capital to go to those with thte most capital.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. That's the point. Paychecks don't get smaller.
I frequently find the story of the golden goose applicable. Where will the customers come from? If there are no customers, how will the businesses survive?

--IMM
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BluePatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
31. Ooo. I have reading to suggest. You'll like it.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I wouldn't exactly say I like it...
But it does vindicate my premise. :scared:

--IMM
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-01-08 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
35. My astronomy friend in the OP has a blog.
He describes his automation socialism.

My political philosophy is based on the implications of advancing technology, especially automation, and how to maximize its benefits and minimize its side effects. I am for promoting automation, to create more wealth and leisure for everyone.

However, capitalism, left to itself, does not tend to spread the resulting increased wealth and leisure around to everyone. Instead, it uses increased productivity to throw some workers out of work entirely, and devalue the labor of the rest. The result is that businesses' profits go up because of reduced labor costs, business owners walk off with all of the increased wealth, and everyone else cannot afford more leisure. Therefore, I am for limiting inequalities of wealth so that everyone benefits from automation, not just the rich. As I show, reducing disparities of wealth would not only spread the benefits of automation around to everyone, but encourage faster automation and economic growth.
<snip>

more...


--IMM
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