As A Boomer, Activist, And Poor, I have Learned ...

[mntleo2]

... that I took many protesters of my generation at face value. I thought they believed what I did. Most did not. They only did it because it was "fun." What those of us who believed in justice did to make the world better was drowned out by our peers. Some of our peers went on, became comfortable and forgot, no they IGNORED the lessons we heard from those who were our leaders Like Martin Luther King and Robert F. Kennedy. The people in power now got into the career rut and just left what they supposedly believed behind, and worse, they ridiculed it.

I hope the next generations learns from mine. I want them to understand those of us like you and me paid a big price for standing up for what was right. What those of us who listened and did the work leave as a legacy is good. But our peers are leaving some nasty stuff, and they like nothing better than to blame the poor for their own legacy. The poor have no power. We did not make this. We tried in our own ways long before they did to stop racism, sexism, make the workplace better, create communities that took care of one another. Our peers went right behind us and destroyed our work.

I am thinking of feminists for instance. The movement in the '70's was done by the educated elites. I appreciate that they called attention to some things that have been endured for centuries. But when it came down to brass tacks, these women only thought of themselves and their elitist peers, who cares about the woman who bore her children and worked in the fields except when these privileged woman used her as their political football to make their points for themselves?

Is the woman working in the fields better off than she was 30 years ago? No she is not! Is the woman working in the corporate office better off than she was 30 years ago? Yes she is! Indeed it is now worse for the low income woman, because now she is expected to do that job AND raise her children with no safety net, no money, no support ~ and many elitist feminists stood at the sidelines and allowed it. Because those elitists never valued the work of women in the first place, they only valued MEN'S work, the corporate work, they even denigrated the work women had done over those centuries. They are not feminists, or they would have seen the work of all women as being valuable, but they did not.

This is not the only issue overlooked in social justice by my generation. The myopic vision of my generations really needs to be examined. I wish these elitist women would apologize for now heaping the burdens of both men's work and women's work on their low income sisters. But they won't. Nor will the racial misogynists who pretend they saw the light of prejudice, but merely moved their them over to ALL poor, putting a (usually) black female face on it and calling her a "welfare queen" and then spreading their hatred further. The reality of it is only masking prejudices of poverty AND racism. Now they can demonize, discriminate, and brutalize all poor, is all. There is a law against discriminating against people of color, but there is no such law for discriminating against people who are poor and they know it.

It is not only my generation who fought for justice and overlooked some important people. I am the friend of a 5th generation woman of Chinese descent who grew up right in the middle of the town where the WOBBLY movement began, what my grandfather fought for that led to our unions. Her people had already lived all those generations more in this country than mine, yet were still treated as if they had "just gotten off the boat," while my grandfather HAD "just gotten off the boat" from Sweden where he was born. When I proudly told her of what I believed was our common heritage, she looked at me with disdain. She said, "Oh that. Well that was only for white men, not for my grandfather. He was Chinese and your grandfather did not even know he existed, when my grandfather and my grandmother knew more about him than he realized since mine were doing your grandfather's laundry." I knew immediately as to what she was speaking and apologized to her for my grandfather's myopia. We laughed about it, but we both knew the cost her people paid to get to a place where they even came close to what my grandfather got for white low income workers. My Grandpa, a Swede who who had prejudices against his own culture at the time to fight as well, but he only lifted his family out of poverty, it did not do squat for my friend's family.

I am proud to become part of this supposedly "melting pot" pool of the poor. I have met some fine people and they come in many colors. I have learned some valuable things about how to keep my integrity intact even though I am starving. I have learned about true strength that is innate in some cultures that mine does not have...yet.

From those that I love whom I speak of above I have learned that true equality is about us ALL, male, female, and every culture. It is not just about some white lady with a doctorate who is not advanced as far as her male peers but who still makes plenty enough as a wage. I can no more tolerate the man who endures prejudice than I can the woman. The recent media's propensity to make men the butt of jokes for instance makes me wince. I want us all to have respect for what we contribute and most of us DO contribute. I believe it should not matter what station in life you are, we all have our jobs and they are each as important as the other. The garbage collector would be sorely missed and there would be a huge upturn in disease were he/she not to do his/her job, just as the doctor would be missed if disease becomes rampant. If this makes me a socialist, so be it, I truly do believe both jobs are worth decent pay and both jobs are as important.

So my generation has had some good people in it that have worked for change. It is just we overlooked some things that need attention if we truly want poverty to be eradicated. I think the most important issue in front of us before we can make change is looking at what we value as true "work." Then we can begin the work of supporting that labor and recognize how much of it is done under our noses and with little support by people of all colors and genders. Then perhaps could we be a true community of support using our tax dollars in a way that values the traditional and often unpaid labor of women that men are also now doing and paying people a decent wage. We could begin respecting all work when it is something that makes our communities better. Maybe then we could stop looking at the guy sitting at the pool collecting his dividends and seeing him as more important than the woman who nannies his children.

That is what I have learned so far ...

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Delphinus]

1. Exellent, well-thought out truth.

Not only a kick, but a recommend as well. Thank you for sharing your story!

[annabanana]

2. You are right.,

Until what we share as humans is more valued than what separates us, one from the other. .there is work to do.

[Support the ACLU]

3. Thanks for posting this

[crikkett]

4. That's the problem with career activists

There's never a good day, nobody has a clear vision of social progress but them. We've got it all wrong, and they're more than happy to tell us exactly how many ways we have it all wrong.

I give your heartwrenching drama three violins

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:


Seriously, I'm sorry for your angst but even in Seattle the sun comes out sometimes. I hope you find a bright warm spot to relax in today, so that you can have a chance to enjoy your life too.

[mntleo2]

29. My "Problem" Is People Who Do Not Hear The Truth n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

5. I loved your post. K & R.

:kick:

[PinkTiger]

6. Great. So now those of us who fought for equality in 1970s are labeled elitist feminists.

We cared about a lot more than you know, and we are not all rich. True, the stalwart bearers were well-heeled urbanites, but those were our spokeswomen. The rank and file of us were no more elite than you. I was raised very low middle class, in the rural southern midwest; I'm the first of my family to get a college degree; my parents were peasant stock. My mother's family were sharecroppers in Alabama, my father's family were servants for the rich. And we are white. The reason that poor women are treated so shabbily can't be blamed on the reforms we were able to get through. The blame actually lies on the ignorance of the American people, who spurned the feminist movement when the powers that be aligned the ERA and women's rights with abortion rights (there was a connection, but it was NOT the whole enchilada) and then villianized the entire thing by using churches and ignorance to keep women down. Nobody has ever stood up for women's rights in rural America. We have had very few people willing to band together for the cause. It is the people's fault. I live here. I breathe here. I know.
I had to pull myself up out of the rank and file of the worker bee in order to get where I am, and I still face discrimination as a woman, even as a professor. So don't tell me about the plight of the poor woman. I know, and I lived it, and my family and the people I know are still there.
You sound to me like a bitter person who wants to blame somebody for your problems. Well, leave feminists alone. Look in the fucking mirror. Look around you. Where were you when we needed you? Get out of my face.

[crikkett]

9. On another note I beleive rural women were very active in the temperance and sufferage movements

tell me if I'm wrong but those campaigns were very much about women's rights.

[NOLALady]

51. As her Chinese friend said,

the campaign was not about the rights of all women.

[mntleo2]

15. I agree with much of what you say

...but can you truly say the field worker, the McJob worker is better off than she was 3 decades ago? No she is not! If you do think she is, you are blind.

Look, I have nothing but admiration for women who made it to where you have and have it better than your mothers did, though not perfect. I am glad for you. I am not saying that sexism does not exist for you too, but I AM saying that the inroads made did *not* help poor women AT ALL and they have been demonized by the elite. Again I have HEARD it out of their mouths right here at the University of Washington with their doctorates who think they are SO compassionate, when it reality they study these women like they are nothing but another guineas pig to back up one of their theories. I will point to the overwhelming applause and deafening silence by many women's rights groups, most notably NOW who refused to work with grassroots low income women at the time against Welfare DeFormed in the '90s. I was THERE I did the begging and got nothing but deafening silence. BTW every single thing people like me said would happen with WEfare DEformed came true and your colleagues STILL want to pretend it does not exist, because oh oh, it is not in a book or on a piece of paper with a graph. Oh God no, DON'T listen to the people actually LIVING it, they are just, just riff-raff!

Also you were a child growing up poor. Try being the parent. My parents told me all the time how they "walked through the snow for miles to read a book." But you know what? It was their MOTHERS who were wiping the sweat from her brow washing, canning, tending the fires and raising the kids. SHE was the one who worried when the supplies got low, not them. She was the one who made sure they had enough food to eat, not them. When the landlord came calling for his rent SHE talked to him, not her kids. She was the one who raked the garden. Her kids HELPED, they did *not* have 1000th of the responsibility she did. Because of her generation, my parents had faded memories, they did not suffer as much as she did until they became the parents. If those parents did better than their parents, great, but they still had it easier than their mothers.

I have worked my butt off in McJobs for over 35 years and I know of what I speak. And if I am bitter as you say I have good reason. I am just observing that it did me and other low income women little good ~ especially when the women I saw who advanced became just as much as the SOBs as the men they replaced, buying the company line that work was more important than anything else, a sick child, a dying mother, or a dead car that would not work because they did not pay their employee enough to even pay the rent.

The women's Movement in the '70s promised more tolerance for families for instance if women got into power. Are we seeing that? No! Hillary Clinton went around with Joe Lieberman touting Welfare Reform and how wonderful it was when it is plunging MILLIONS of women and their family into permanent poverty. Clinton is one of the original '70's feminists. She did not give a rat's ASS about the women she spoke about because I know for a fact they have been clamoring literally below her office window in NY trying to get her to listen for almost a decade and she turns a deaf ear.

Low income women are lucky to use the Family Leave Act UNPAID to leave the workforce to have a baby or take care of a sick parent. It does them little good because they cannot afford to take the time even if they wanted to, which forces them back to working for a wage within weeks anyway, it does not help them. They are forced to leave their nursing babies only weeks old with strangers, but hey, she is doing something SO much more important saying through a microphone, "Do you want fries with that?" Only today do we see such groups as MomsRising who think they have made heueueuge fucking inroads just to get PAID leave in two freaking states for government employees, screw the private sector workers for such a luxury. Most developing countries in the world have been doing that routinely for decades but not here.

If you do not like what I say, I might remind you and others that working for a wage is *not* the only way to contribute to society. That women themselves denigrate the work women have done for eons as traditional work that they STILL are expected to do for free and is now codified into law under Welfare Reform as "doing nothing." That there is little or no support from their communities or family says it all to me. I have the original MS magazine and they were FULL of sarcastic references to the work of women as "doing nothing." They bought lock stock and barrel that the *only* worthy work was the work that men did. Well tell that to my grandmother who died of exhaustion after having 17 kids and working in the fields alongside her husband being only considered a "farm animal" when she bore his children, made his dinner, cleaned his clothes and ironed his shorts after they both came back to the house?

I remember women's rights making fun of women's work and thinking they were SO Much More Important working in some corporate office than (pffffft) raising some KID or helping a nieghbor, why that was not worth their time. Like raising the next generation to carry on the world and take care of US in our old age is "doing nothing." Like weaving community and taking care of family and the commons was "not as important" even though women have been doing this in most cultures since humans existed ~ because it was not paid work. GEEEEZ Woman get a clue!

So while you are fighting your male colleagues over lunch because they do not recognize that paper you published as much as theirs, perhaps you will remember the woman who is cleaning your office, the one who picked the lettuce in your luncheon salad, or the one checking your groceries. She cannot even pay the rent because she is not paid enough to feed her kids. Your lunch would bur her three days worth of groceries for her and her kids, she is STILL waiting for that promise her work as a mother is as important as yours. From YOUR colleagues, she gets little support or recognition that helps her feed her family, as it has always been for her mother, grandmother from time immemorial. Academics is good and I realize people like you are writing papers and doing research, but how about listening to someone who has been out there on the ground DOING what you write about and study for once?

I WILL stay away from you, I promise I just had to have my say. Now leave ME alone too and go tend your papers. I am SURE they are So Much More Important than someone like me who is more than one of your "theories" someone who has actually LIVED what I speak. I AM right about this and you do not have a clue.

Cat In Seattle
P.S. To ME you are rich. You make three times what poor women make and think you are poor. What does this say?

[U4ikLefty]

18. Can YOU truly say the MALE field worker, the McJob worker is better off than HE was 3 decades ago?

Perhaps I missed where the MALE homemmaker was paid by the gov't.

Poor MEN also cannot afford to take unpaid-leave.

I blame those elitist-masculinists...where the hell were they?!?

[mntleo2]

24. A-Men Brother!

...I agree.

When I was a feminist in the '70's, one time I was pontificating to my mother about how women should be able to choose their careers and get paid as much as men. My mother listened to me patiently until I was finished. Then she said this:

"Cat, if you think for one minute YOU will get paid what a man does, you are wrong. If your generation gets what you insist upon getting, to be the bread winners, and that any job will up your wages to match your male counterparts, you are wrong, wrong, wrong! No, what will happen is they will LOWER men's wages to YOURS so you BOTH have to work for what a man does now..."

She was right, it is what the common scene is now. Men are just as maligned and underpaid as women ~ though you have to admit, women are STILL getting paid $.70 cents on a man's dollar.

Even there with lower wages, because women leave the workforce to care for kids and again parents more, we actually lose the average of 1/4 of a million dollars in wages over a life time. Because women's traditional work is not valued.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[U4ikLefty]

30. That's my point. I think holding the "feminist" responsible for the fight

we ALL should be fighting is counter-productive.

The inequality in wages is a cause that femenists have been active on for years.

The issues that are not exclusively "female" should be of interest to us ALL...not just the "femenists".

BTW, am I an "elitist femenist", becuase I am (male) member of NOW???

[mntleo2]

34. I Don't Know IF You Are Or Not

...all I am saying is what I saw. I might say that, yes the Women's Movement has only helped the elite, it has done *nothing* for low income women and actually brought more men down so they cannot support a family either. If that is "blaming" someone, instead of doing something about it, why not find some solutions instead of patting ourselves on the backs thinking we are so Pure and Wonderful? My suggestions are right at the end of my post.

But admit it, to the elites, low-income issues are not "sexy." This is why John Edwards had to drop out of the race because he was speaking to many of our issues. Also it means more hard work, and support, but who cares about "them" when you already have yours, right? That seems to be the name of the game. That is what I have seen with my own eyes as an activist with my so-called "allies" who work against the very suggestions I speak about in my piece. As a matter of fact, I am seeing it all over again as I write in this very forum!

I know this might be terrifying but the truth is, you never know when you are going to be next to join me in line at the food bank. I already know it, it is not some abstract fear, it is HERE for me so I can say it. So instead of allowing fear to run your thinking, listen and take heed and support those of us who have been out there for years and maybe it won't happen to you or the ones you love.

I do not want you or your children to live what we have, yet this is exactly what many of face today, because my generation did not hear those lessons, instead they would rather tear apart the problem and then ignore the ideas. Lots easier to jump on one thing and pretend that is the whole thing, when in reality it is scary as heel to realize that you CAN do something about it, you COULD join those of us who are trying to stop it, it is just easier to jump on one piece of the post and pretend it is all about what group you belong to instead of realizing I am just writing my truth.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mntleo2]

35. Done That Too

...well it was only TWO paid jobs while raising kids working Mcjobs and going to school. Look I do not want to "one up" you, but I DO know of what you speak. I am sorry if you do not like what I said and glad that you have "arrived." It is just that perhaps you are so proud of yourself and all the work you did to get where you are, you think it is "better" and you "know more" and you are "more important."

I also worked three jobs, it is just that one of them was raising kids, not only mine but other family members' as well. I appreciate your success and I am sorry if you are angry with me ...but let's face it Lady, you weren't too nice in your posts and it was painful to hear such pure venom and put down for merely saying what I have seen. I also have "arrived." To wisdom that books or papers will never speak to and I am just sayin' that is MORE important than any sheepskin, it required just as much work, in spite of what many buy as "The Only Way." I just wanted some credit from that, but instead got even more elitist observations intended to put me down, like cherry picking out one thing I wrote about and not addressing the rest.

Cat

[PinkTiger]

59. Look, I've paid my dues. And I'm not an elitist.

I'm not sure why you are allowed to put Hillary Clinton down in your posts, but when I point out the obvious about your candidate, my posts are deleted. It sounds very much like censorship to me. I think it is very unfair that we are being railroaded into accepting someone who many of us feel is totally unworthy. The candidate you support has NOT paid his dues. And you talk about elitist? Please. Nobody is more elitist than your candidate. And I don't care if you have arrived. Putting down what we fought for in the 1970s and 1960s and then berating "boomers" is stupid. Because this is one person who is totally turned off by your petty whining.

[mntleo2]

67. Very Well Said

...and I am NOT being sarcastic here. I think you have some valid points, even if I disagree.

I feel what I do about my generation because of my own valid experiences seeing so many of my peers ignore issues that are now the chickens coming home to roost. Not ALL of my peers ignored the issues, but most of the ones in power did and they are quick to blame the poor for their mistakes. Their "solutions" make it worse, like Welfare DeFormed and marrying women off or "preserving" a marriage where the woman fled for her life with her children from an abuser.

Why could this be? While I am sure it was not people like you, it was the academics from the Heritage Foundation who created Welfare DEformed and even so-called "progressives" wildly applauded it. I know I was there incredulously watching it. When people like me went around trying to point out its flaws, we were laughed off the block, while in reality what has been forecast has come to be. Why is it that academics are so threatened to see they really should do more than "talk among themselves?" If they listened to the people living these policies, perhaps they might learn something and find some solutions, since they are the ones being heard, not me.

I KNOW there are progressive out there like you. I appreciate that. But I have to tell you, from what I have seen, when academics go about "solving" an issue it is all about clashing egos and gnashing teeth so wrapped up in it, even the progressives are ignoring that there are WHOLE FAMILIES SITTING AT THE BUS STOP FREEZING TO DEATH RIGHT OUTSIDE THEIR WINDOW.

I know what I am saying is radical and will upset some people. As for Clinton, I do not believe I have not put her down, but I HAVE pointed out the truth about where she stands for low income women and it is not pretty. If telling the truth is "putting someone down" then I am not sure why there is a forum here since I thought it was about discussing issues. Criticism is part of this discussion, because how can you fix something if you will not even admit there is a problem?

I really do want to thank you for not being as caustic as before, it helps. See to me, you have credentials that people look up to and listen to, I do not. So I hope you will forgive me for coming on so strong because I have always had to in order to be heard as most low income women do ~ or else like the good little girls they are expected to be, they "should" go quietly go into the shadows when they learn they will not be heard and never will be respected for all they do. Yet the decisions made that impact the lives of these women and children are often in the hands of people who not only do not have a clue, they don't WANT to have a clue or they would actually listen to and respect the people for whom they are making policy decisions about.

So take care and I want to thank you for speaking your truth. It is important we talk, because it is the only way we will get through the snarled, smelly mess of poverty. Maybe we can make things better after all, if we talk.


My 2 cents

Cat

[PinkTiger]

69. I have been very upset by recent attacks on Hillary Clinton.

I do not believe that what you say about her is true, because I know the real Hillary.
However, I'm afraid that BO is definitely in the hindpockets of the GOP and is being promoted simply because they think they can beat him in the general.
I'm also very dubious about any movement that strikes me as being "charismatic" or a phenomenon.

I do not pretend to be more intelligent or more educated than you, or anyone else on this board. My degrees are in specializations. These are not things that translate easily into the world at large. My work history includes a great deal of McWork, including waitressing, working in poultry plants, garment plants, bartending, temp work, secretarial jobs, etc. I've even cleaned other people's houses and babysat for others for money. As a person now gainfully employed, I work hard to put my money where my mouth is, and I actively support efforts to eradicate poverty locally; I live in a very impoverished county. I am not a "progressive elite." I came about my education the hard way, going to school when I could and working my way up. Today, as a tenured professor, I am working slowly on a phd that I may get about the time I retire, so I can retire as a full professor and have a decent retirement. In the meantime, I have to work two jobs to pay for the tuition. My second job is real estate, which as you know, has not been really lucrative for awhile. In real estate I specialize in helping poor people sell their homes before foreclosure takes them; I also work with seniors, especially women, helping them to find a home they can afford on meager incomes. I don't sell the mansions and the acreages that many do - I like working with people like me. I became the family's breadwinner 8 years ago when my husband, a heart patient, got cancer and had to suddenly retire. Today he is still with us, Thank God, but he cannot work. I take care of an elderly mother and her companion, both in the late 80s, and I am constantly on call.
The students I work with are mostly first generation college students. I work at a state institution, a four-year institution that also has a few masters degree plans. I work hard to keep kids in school and help them make it through to graduation. I don't toil in an ivory tower, and I wouldn't want a job that required it

I think the problem I have with you is, you are making generalizations about feminists and about college professors and about women who make good money, and you are unfair with the generalizations. It sounds as though there is something out there you wanted and didn't get, and I can tell you that all of us are there to some extent. "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, " etc.

Instead of blaming people, you need to be part of the solution. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution. Figure out where you fit.

[mntleo2]

74. What I Want More Than Anything Is

...no more homelessness. I AM part of the solution, it is just that nobody hears it. As my minister told me today while discussing this post, we will just have to keep talking about these solutions until they get heard. He has worked on the issues of poverty and homelessness all his adult life, as a matter of fact it was the subject of his Dr in Theology at the Theological Union Seminary, where the Riverside Church is (and where Hillary and Bill go to church). Maybe you do not believe what I say and I can respect that, but I know it is true. Here is an article from The Nation from 2002: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020722/conniff

I felt generalized as well. I am pretty comfortable with who I am and I have worn my poverty as a badge of honor. I would never want to be someone who had WAY more than I need. When my grandfather died, he left a few pictures of The Old Country (Sweden), his hat and a pair of shoes, the rest he wore to his grave. May I leave as much when I die. He was a great man ~ and I might add one of the friends he came over with was John Nordstrom of the Nordstrom Department Stores ...he loved his friend, I visited with my grandfather at John's old shoe shop in downtown Seattle and listened to them talk Swedish, laugh uproariously and just enjoy one another's company. I remember both of them shaking their heads at the greed of John's children. My grandfather taught me that, if you had enough to eat, a roof over your head and good friends, "that you will count on one hand," you will take enough from this earth. My mother taught the scramble for money and power was "shallow" and that it is a sin to have more than you need.

All this is well and good, but when I see the suffering for necessities it angers me, and there is plenty of suffering that seems to go on under the radar of people who have more than enough. I have come to believe that having more than one needs IS a sin when sitting on it while your neighbor starves is causing great benign suffering. We do not honor that in this society. We think "success" means making a lot of money, having a lot of people think highly of you because of that money, and having a lot of "things>"

It was especially poignant to me when today in church my minister talked about the world's obsession with hierarchy/patriarchy/matriarchy and the "top down" way of doing things. We do not have to run things that way, and Hillary is a "top down" person. Frankly I have a hard time with anyone who says they are Christian buying that, but as Jesus tried to point out, it is just as radical today as then. My minister also works in the same realm as me, with social workers, universities, non-profits and politicians and he is often at the State capitol and in DC talking about poverty. He is as frustrated with academics as I am and he is no stranger to the educational world. I am not coming out of left field here (WELL it IS left...) We think all the wrangling and hand wringing when the solution is simple: take of our brother and sister first instead of waiting for a bunch of (excuse me here, but it is what I think) idiots who "know" when in reality they don't and worse buy lock stock and barrel the System's way of doing things without question. of course one of the reason they don't question is that they are part of it and benefit from it.

I was struck once reading about a very educated man who had a death experience. His life review was not about all the achievements and awards he had earned. He did not review one thing around that. It was about how he treated those around him. I have another minister friend with the same experience. He said he realized his mission on this earth was not about his ROLE as a minister, it was about his daily actions and how he treated his loved ones and strangers. He became a poet and he always stopped to pet a dog, speak with someone sitting by the road or have a laugh with someone at the tavern across the street from the church. He did not drink, he just liked to go in an razz the Austrian who owned it who tried to convince people that there never was a Holocaust. Eventually the owner came to be one of the most active people in my friend's church and could not believe he ever thought the way he did.

So if I am envious, perhaps it is of people who can just go about their lives, and literally step over the homeless person in the street, even while they are "finding solutions" in the laboratory. I wish I could sleep at night like they do. I would no more want to be affiliated with the place you are than clean a cat box, because I could not abide the games I see there, but that is me. I would rather be out living, and as Martin Luther King said, to be actually loving my neighbor by BEING a neighbor. He said you really cannot love your neighbor from afar. Because how can I find solutions if I do not truly know the problem?

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle
P.S. Look at the last paragraph of my article and you will see my solution.

Hope this helps.

[PinkTiger]

75. Sounds to me as though anyone who tries to do anything is your enemy.

What have you done to make a difference? Please tell us.
I work to make a difference every day, with the people I come in contact with. I can't reach everyone. I can't help everyone. That is why I give as much as I can to the United Way, so they can use my donation in tandem with others' donations to make a difference.
I can't solve the world's problems by deciding I'm an elitist for having a college degree and a white collar job and jumping off the nearest bridge to atone for my short comings.
I can't become the salve to heal your wounds by apologizing for being born white and having a roof over my head. How dare I? I should go into the streets and tear up my diplomas and burn down my house, tear up my clothes and go naked to live among the homeless.

Everyone is the cause of your problems, I guess.

[mntleo2]

77. Well Besides /writing About It Every Day

Who is asking you to kill yourself? It would do little good.

I would say when you do the work of God, there is no measure. I think my "job" is to turn the System upside down. To question things that should be questioned. This is what I believe I am called to do. And when it upsets people, well I have done my job! This is what my heart calls me to do by writing, carrying signs, talking to my legislators. Oh and the most important job of all is the 24/7 job of raising my beautiful grand niece who is the light of my life. She would have not had anyone for a parent as she was born HIV exposed, a brown person, who most people would leave for the orphanage. Oh but they miss out on one of the greatest blessings a person could have as she is the delight of all who know her! She "tells" me to always stand up for why she was born that way in the first place. One of the most important jobs in the world is raising children it is far more important that even being president. It is THE work of God.

As for your things, your house and all, well one thing one could do is sell it all, give it to the poor and follow your heart ...but then that is radical as well. Like the rich man who left in tears because a Man told him how to do the work of God, but the rich man could not give all his things up, If this is same choice you will make you are not alone as most people do not heed that call, which was another point I was making in my article about people who SAY they care but ... We do not have to go naked, kinda chilly, just a cloak, jeans and shirt and a good pair of shoes would do.

I am not asking for anyone but God to help me heal my wounds. I do not need anyone to be my "salve" this is not what I am calling to do and I believe you know it, even though you feign this as your perception. I am not sure why you say this, I am calling for us ALL to be a salve for each other by caring for one another and calling for the corruption of this System to be torn down and made into something that benefits everyone, not just a few.

You did not comment on the link I sent you about Hillary. I knew it myself but hey ...each to their own and sometimes you need proof. Still here it is again in case you decide to read it. It is good not to ignore the truth about her indifference and deafness to suffering and her hateful actions against poor women: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20020722/conniff. IN case it goes to the Nation's prescription page, I googled "Hillary welfare reform protest" and there are other articles in the list as well. I chose the Nation because I knew it would be the most believable but there is lots out there about how she works against low income women and only cares about the privileged.

I can tell you something I know: Since Bsrak Obama is of my faith, I already know he is being called to care for others. Our faith calls us to do the work of God, not man. You could not BE in his church and not hear that message loud and clear. His minister is well known and respected throughout the nation and the work they do and have done for years is Good Work. They are not wingnuts but people who truly try to hear the Word and live it. Not for the rich but the poor. Not for the powerful but for the powerless. I am not sure if he heeds the call, but I do know what his faith says, because I am the same faith. And most who hear it cannot ignore it, most will do for the least of us before they do for the ones who hoard it to themselves. Most wing huts if they come to our church, leave in disgust because we accept gays as equals and believe in true equality. A homeless person is as welcome at our table as the mayor of our city and we would expect them to sit side by side. Someone insincere usually cannot belong to that faith for long because the Truth would burn their hearts. Senator Obama has stayed there for years.

I am glad you get so much pleasure working every day at your job, if you believe it is doing good. Good to give some money to The United Way. It sounds like this is good for you.

Cat In Seattle

[PinkTiger]

78. I'm going to leave you to your vitriolic hatred.

You can spout hate about Hillary, but when I question Barack Obama, I'm censored.
This enrages me.
I'm putting you on ignore.

[mondo joe]

84. There seems to be a running theme that anything anyone does isn't good enough

because it doesn't make everything perfect, so therefore any good anyone does is actually somehow bad.

I don't think it makes sense, but there you have it.

[PinkTiger]

86. Exactly.

And if I don't embrace the same candidate, then I'm fodder, anyway. Because this whole thread was about bashing HIllary Clinton, baby boomers, women, and feminists who are members of the "elite," in other words they managed to amount to something despite the barriers. Sooooo, I'm finished talking.

[eridani]

53. Didn't Ms. publish Pat Mainardi's "Wages for Housework"?

http://faculty.uml.edu/sgallagher/femclass.htm
As I recall, class was taken seriously by feminists in the late 60s/early 70s, but the issue pretty much faded out later. There was no serious resistance to the Hyde Amendment in 1977 (after all, women who could afford abortions could still get them), and absolutely zilch against welfare "reform."

[mntleo2]

68. Yes She Did

...and yes it did fade out when the clamoring for "real work" (men's work) was heeded more. I suspect this is because to get MEN in power to listen, as is often the case, you appeal to his ego so he will then think it is all his idea and his system is "better." Unfortunately the word you use, "dropped" is the key word here, because nobody picked it up.

Well I am picking it up! Thanks for reminding me about this book, I forgot about it. Great book!

Love
Cat

[bobbolink]

19. Yes, all the emotional grief that we invested is now to be spit on.

I'm so sick of all this shit!

Some days I wish we had just kept it to ourselves, and let the younger elites figure it out for themselves.

[Le Taz Hot]

62. THANK YOU!

I started reading this crap thinking "What the fuck???" Who the hell is the OP to throw us all under the bus? I came up from poor white stock as well. I worked 2-3 jobs AND went to school full time and STILL managed to volunteer where I was needed.

I didn't get involved in the Civil Rights Movement and the Women's Movement and the Anti-war movement back then because it was "fun." I and THOUSANDS of other women did it because we had a moral obligation to do so. And guess what? We're still volunteering at homeless shelters. We're still working with at-risk kids. We're still going to peace marches. We're still fighting for equality.

I'm not surprised when some Gen Xer or Yer (the "what-have-you-done-for-me-lately" generation) rags on boomers because most of them never had a clue to begin with but for a fellow boomer to be doing it? You're right. There's more going on here than meets the eye and it has nothing to do with those of us who have been working our asses off for the last 35 years.

[mntleo2]

65. Not Talking About You Dear

...talking about the myriads of hangers on who did *not* take the movement seriously.

Cat

[caseycoon]

7. K&R For TRUTH! Thanks for posting this! n/t

[aquart]

8. Are you out of your smug elitist mind?

"Indeed it is now worse for the low income woman, because now she is expected to do that job AND raise her children with no safety net, no money, no support" ??????

WORSE???????? "No safety net, no money, no support"?????

Your diatribe is all over the map. I'm sorry you are so bitter because the world didn't become perfect under the boomers. That we didn't lose our biases of class and race and sex. And oh, what a badge of honor and pride you wear because YOU, a descendant of the bright white Swedes, know blue collar working women of other descent.

Goody. Here's a link to AALDEF. Put your money where your mouth is.

<https://www.aaldef.org/>

What disgustingly ignorant massively confused twaddle.

[mntleo2]

27. Agreed!

...that was my point. My friend knew of what she spoke better than I, as do my friends of many cultures. I hear it over and over again. Why I am calling for more awareness and that it has not been heeded...that so many were and are left behind. Asian women are some of the maligned and underpaid and under appreciated. If they think Clinton and her People care about them maybe they are right. But I know a whole lot of Africaan, East Indian, African American, Native and Asian women who have been speaking out to people like Clinton and getting nowhere ~ and they might add to it their husbands and brothers are doing much better than they are with the same skills.

Just because I am of European descent does not mean I do not hear what is being said by my afore mentioned friend and others. I have kids of color as well. Additionally I have had a taste of discrimination as a low income woman. Even then I do understand that STILL this boomer woman (me) had it "better" than most people male or female of color. I will be the first to tell you this! Still that ill treatment I have lived through has been enough to work my ass off for equality for all races and sexes.

Love
Cat

[B Calm]

10. Great post!

[elizfeelinggreat]

11. you're blaming the wrong side

Really, you sound so angry at those who did what they could to make a change! Is it because they're the only ones who will care?

Let's all direct that anger at the greedy people who don't care, where it belongs.

[bobbolink]

21. Yes, those of us who were on the front lines of the feminst battle are now at fault because

the younger ones take it for granted and say "I'm not a feminst..."

shit.

[Deja Q]

33. Age and greed are two disparate entities.

:)

[mntleo2]

39. A-Men Bobby!

... the younger generation are ashamed of radical feminism, because as you have said "radical" means root, and radicals stare at the root of the problem when everyone else wants to just look at the flower on the top. Instead radicals say, "Dig under all that mud and dirt and see what I found! Look over here! Here is the problem!"

Then watch as most run like scared rabbits because the Truth with a capitol T is just too much for them to face and God forbid, they do not want to get their soft hands dirty. They just think running from it means it is not the Truth when it is.

I love you Bobby for what you say because it is true, and what I wish younger people will see!

Love
Cat

[mntleo2]

38. Not Sure If It is "Anger" But ...

...from working with so-called "allies," I am just saying they often did nothing for low income women. Period. If pointing out the truth is "angry" I apologize since my anger was not the point, learning from what happened is, though I do think it might be a bit unrealistic to pretend then that all was fine when it was not.

Do agree with you as I mention in my post that the uncaring and selfish Greedy should be taken to task ~ and the people that buy that somehow the Greedy are "better" need to be taken to task as well!

My 2 cents,
Cat

[elizfeelinggreat]

44. I was a low income woman

for a long time and far be it from me to claim that everything is taken care of and over ... and I don't believe I did that. I don't know that anyone on this thread is saying that, but if not for those who tried what would there be? They do deserve thanks for getting the ball rolling. And considering the forces who are/were against women's rights, or helping the poor, it's not easy to affect change on a grand scale. The truth is that people had to keep the momentum going and carry it farther and farther into society.


I'd like to reiterate that I felt you were taking it out on the ones who were trying to make a difference. I'd rather celebrate those who pick up the standard and keep going with it, as John Edwards was doing. I understand the frustration, believe me, I was just trying to turn the energy in a different direction. I'm sure we have more in common than not.

[mntleo2]

64. Did Not Mean To Take It Out On Activist Meant To ...

...say the opposite. Activists are needed more than ever to speak for the low income. They have been political footballs and good fodder for those who detest them and there have been few who listen to them.

Do you know that NOBODY in academics or government even know what happened to the millions of women and their families who left welfare during the Welfare DeFormed years? Nor do they care, they simply use the statistic of how many exited to point to how "successful" it was to have downsized the caseload, they could give a whit about what happened to them. But we do have some hints, like the growing homeless population, the swelling numbers of working poor, the homeless children on the street, the high school drop out rate (Mom cannot be home anymore, there is little support for kids over the age of 11 and they are left at home with no supervision to get into trouble), it is actually costing more for states subsidizing parents of younger children for daycare alone than if the mother was allowed to BE a mother, growing food bank caseloads, growing healthcare issues both with healthcare insurance and chronic diseases such as diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure.

Academics does not see fit to looking into what happened to these families, and the government does not want to know. It isn't as sexy as burning flags or philandering presidents. However we do have a few statistics as to what welfare recipients were doing before WR was codified:

* Though more whites than women of color are/were welfare recipients, the communities where women of color outnumber white women on welfare is where the most racial discrimination exists.

When Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation encountered some "uppity black welfare recipients" in DC, he was simply appalled at how they "lived off the system" and were trying to better themselves. So he was moved to run back to the Heritage Foundation and write the Welfare Reform Act. God forbid that some WOMEN were using the system to better themselves, like his white male friends do every day! What Rector preferred to overlook was, these women had come from Virginia towns where generations of discrimination for people of color was institutionalized. They had no chance at a decent job for their families, their choice was working for some rich family in "The Big House" for pennies. These women left their lifelong homes and came to DC to get an education, using welfare to support their families as they did so.

Which moves me to the next point:

* Before Welfare DeFormed was enacted, over 70% of women on welfare used the support for their families to get an education or training. That is no longer allowed under the new law, the *only* thing allowed is to get a job any job with little concern whether or not it is with a livable wage that supports a family. Women have to fight tooth and nail just to get a GED, which helps little for thier working lives now.

* Daycares and transportation are virtually non-existent for rural women yet they are being sanctioned for "not cooperating" at a high rate. As noted above, whether rural or urban, it is actually MORE expensive to have a child in daycare than for a mother to BE one especially with the cost of infant care which can be twice the cost of an older child. Welfare DeFormed mandates a mother go back to work when her baby is 3 months old, still nursing and the bonding is interrupted. Even with the cost of healthcare, food stamps and a small cash stipend it would actually cost less to allow that mother to stay home with her baby than to pay a daycare center. In rural areas that do not have public transportation, it is especially hard on poor women because she haa no way to get to work or her children to daycare. If she is lucky enough to have a car, with longer distances to travel, the cost of fuel is astronomical and does not even begin to cover the expenses she uses just to get to work.

* Under Welfare Reform we do know that children are being removed from their mothers at an alarming rate, especially from women of color. Why is this? Well because mother is not home and it there is no daycare she leaves them with whom she can to get to work, often with older siblings who are not prepared to take on an entire family.

In the apartment right above me lives a family where the 13 year old has been caring for her 4 siblings since she was 11 years old because her parents are often at work. She cannot even make it to school often because one or the other of them is often sick with what they bring home from school. She works hard, but her brothers and sister do not listen to her, and the neighbors complain all the time as to how unruly they are, which is because of lack of adult supervision. The parents cannot afford daycare, and they are not bad parents, they are just working their tails off just to pay the rent is all. But I often shudder to consider how the Authorities would mangle that family the day one of those kids gets hit by a car, is found wandering around at 10 at night, or is molested by a opportunistic neighbor, which is why they are often at my house after school. It is why I help the oldest one with her homework so she does not get so far behind that she becomes discouraged and drops out of school.

These kids are growing up without the benefits of family who have elders or parents to guide them. Are those the kinds of adults we want to take care of us and run our world when we get too old to do it? What a high price to pay to force people into the workforce when they have the important job of raising kids who will be our future! Foster home care is not the naser for these kids, a parent is! Talk to kids who spent their childhoods in foster care and you will immediately see what I mean.

*Burgeoning sex trade where children as young as 10 years old are forced into prostitution by opportunistic pimps who seduce children hungry for adult attention and then use them as sex slaves. An article in this week's paper in my home town illustrates this: http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=childprostitution26m&date=20080226

The hair brained attitude that just cutting roles is the only thing to count is sick. Welfare Reformed plans for healthy families and well rounded kids are *not* good plans. They are saying right now, "Oooo see how wonderful and successful we are because families are not on our books anymore! Who cares what happens to these families and kids we have cut? We will just fill up our juvenile halls with gang members and sex abuse victims who never get any therapy or help instead! All better now..."

And Hillary Clinton thinks this is just wonderful ...

What I WRONG with this picture?

My 2 cents


Cat In Seattle

[elizfeelinggreat]

70. Cat,

There are many things wrong in our world. Guess what, you need to stop insinuating these things are the fault of those who tried but didn't meet your standard of success . They're not.

It's also not my fault and you don't have to lecture me on who to speak to about it. Unless you want me to find some equally outrageous injustice and blame your lack of action on it. Am I getting through yet? Stop buying the MSM account of who cares and what is important, it's insulting to everyone on this board who takes the time to educate themselves. It's insulting to people in "academics or government" who do care that you broad brush with such statements as those you just made.

If you truly believe that "Activists are needed more than ever to speak for the low income"

then please rethink your attack on those who tried to make a difference , even if their efforts seemed like "having fun" to you, at least they were doing something - anything to bring attention to the disparities. Stop insulting them and implying that because they didn't meet Your standards, their intentions were bad.

Once again I'll just ask you to consider placing all your anger on those most likely to NOT GIVE A SH*T about any of it.

I am personally extremely thankful. It's easy to write stuff on a bulletin board and hard to walk the walk. I thank those who tried every time I realize how hard it was/is to speak out against the status quo in the company of others. I will take this opportunity to say thank you, from the bottom of my heart, to each and every man and woman who spoke up and those that continue to speak up for the rights of others.

Let's encourage each other to make a difference in this world. Then we'll make another difference and keep on going, every single day.

[mntleo2]

81. Agreed

...I think the attempts were fine, and some of my peers went on to make it a part of their life's work. They may have had a family, they may work for The Man, and this is all fine and good, but they were few of my generation.

I am speaking of the ones who went to the "be ins", the protests in the '60's, who wore the long hair and wore the crazy clothes, who immediately left it behind when they saw a dollar sign and forgot the message. I have been in the corporate and legislative offices with these people and looked them in the eye but they can't look back. Because they know the Truth. They know they are supporting a corrupt System that is only hurting most people, that is no longer "By the People and for the People" that they helped to dismantle.

They are whom I am speaking about.

Cat

[bobbolink]

83. You have spoken it clearly and to the point.

Point to the behavior, and not the whole group.

and, yes, then there would be commonality.

[Luminous Animal]

12. NOW lobbied against welfare reform

and staged a 17 day hunger strike in front of Bill Clinton's White House urging him to veto TANF.

[eilen]

13. Yet they still gave him unwavering support

in the face of the women (G. Flowers, P. Jones, K. Willey and M. Lewinsky-- as well as his wife and daughter as a result of the formers) who were victiimized by him as well as Zoe Baird who was a professional woman that was spurned for appointment because apparently she was busy exploiting illegal workers to manage her domestic life--maybe that was too much idealistic dissonance. I really felt NOW turned their back on women in return for some political backscratching or whatever-- maybe intellectual ego boosting? who knows. But it was very hypocritical. They certainly were out in force for Anita Hill, but then, that was against a Republican. Maybe it is only Republicans that are evil women haters.

[mondo joe]

14. People's legal personal relationships are not NOW's interest.

Their interest is political. And in that arena, they of course lent their support to the candidate who was best for their issues.

[eilen]

42. the personal is political

NOW was certainly at the forefront in Anita Hill's case.

[mondo joe]

46. Anita Hill said Clarence Thomas harrassed her. That's not just personal.

Did Hillary say that about Bill? Did Monica say it?

They did not.

In addition, NOW had every good reason to oppose the Thomas nomination. What would have been the point in opposing Bill Clinton?

[eilen]

52. Paula Jones and Gennifer Flowers were employees of the State of

Arkansas and Bill Clinton was governor. Monica Lewinsky was a White House intern and Clinton was President. Mrs. Willey was a widow of an administration employee. I have trouble seeing the difference. At best it is fraternization which in the military results in loss of rank. At worst it was harassment. In any event, it is an imbalance of power with the women as the one with less power and prone to abuses. I was very disappointed that NOW did not raise any dust about this.

I don't wish to revisit the enchilada of Bill Clinton's goatish behavior, I am pointing out that the country's leading feminist organization turned a deaf ear to women who were, by situation, victimized and, I believe in doing that, it had the effect of trivializing them. I don't know if it was because of friendships with Hillary or being enamored by Bill--whatever it was, the "bimbo explosions" of that era were definitely pejorative to the women and there was no one to give them voice except political enemies of the Clinton administration.

I know JFK had peccidillos and ran around and I'm sure there are scads of men in power who did the same. But that was before the feminist movement and laws protecting women and the Clinton era certainly was after those acheivements which is why I wonder they were so easily thrown out or made less important.

I certainly wish that Anita Hill had brought attention to Justice Thomas's behavior prior to the hearings, prior to him being tapped for SCJ because of how it went over in the public. However, Thomas should have been rejected on those grounds. I don't believe in cherrypicking your values based on which political side of the fence individuals sit on. It is not okay to make sexual references or advances to your subordinates, period. If you are in public office, it is reprehensible because you are there on the public's trust and penny. That non profit organizations built to protect and defend people from such abuses turn their backs... I no longer have any faith in them because their agenda is now suspect.

[mondo joe]

54. You have to feel you're harrassed for there to be harrassment. That's a key distinction.

I similarly don't wish to revisit the "enchilada".

But I do have to point out that there's a difference between someone who feels harassed and someone who doesn't. Consent is key.

[eilen]

60. Very true.

Apparently Paula Jones and K. Willey felt harassed. Lewinsky and Flowers did not. But I think you have to consider that Lewinsky was very young (poor judgement being a hallmark of youth) and there was an imbalance of power. Flowers was economically enriched (given a state job)-- still an imbalance of power which is why there are fraternization rules. The accompanying effects of morale on the part of fellow employees when it is apparent there is a "personal" relationship between a person of power/the boss and a colleague or coworker are negative as well. It proves poor management skillls at best and a predatory nature at worst.

[mntleo2]

17. I would say Susan McDougal Got It Worse

...she almost froze to death in prison and not a one person came to help her when she tried to tell the truth either.


Cat

[eilen]

43. I agree.

I felt very bad for Susan MacDougal and her husband. Even though I know her husband Jim played fast and loose with monies (although put him next to any of the current honchos of mortgage companies, banks, hedge funds and he not only blends in but looks quite boy scoutish) and was convicted for those activities, he didn't deserve to die in prison for untreated diabetes.

Due to time and space constraints, it is too big a job to list the casualties (professional, personal and financial) of the F.O.B.

[Luminous Animal]

71. Actually, they didn't give him unwavering support...

and you are perpetuating right wing propaganda by asserting so.

http://www.now.org/press/04-98/letter-ed.html

Letter from Patricia Ireland to the media about portrayal of NOW

* reprinted in USA Today (4/8/98) and the New York Post (4/9/98)


Contrary to the portrayal in the media, neither NOW nor I have been silent on the allegations of sexual harassment against President Clinton, nor do we have a history of being blindly loyal Clinton supporters.

Before Ms. Jones filed her case in 1994, we cautioned that "every Paula Jones deserves to be heard, no matter how old she is and how long ago the incident occurred, no matter what kind of accent she has or how much money she makes, and no matter who she associates with."

Last summer we successfully took on the president's lawyers over the use of the "nuts or sluts" strategy of irrelevant personal attacks meant to discredit and intimidate Ms. Jones.

When allegations of an affair between the president and Monica Lewinsky surfaced, we condemned the misuse of power by the president or any public official who has a sexual relationship with an employee or intern.

Ironically, the media reported we were finally breaking our silence when Kathleen Willey's deposition became public and we noted that her allegations, if true, constituted not just harassment but assault.

NOW sought to support Paula Jones but was rebuffed by her and her attorneys, thus:

In 1994 we distributed a statement outlining the principles we stand by. It read, in part: "We know that sexual harassers are everywhere -- in high public positions, in executive suites and even in pulpits. In fact, powerful men may be more likely to harass women because some of these men treat harassment as a fringe benefit, a privilege of power. Every Paula Jones deserves to be heard, no matter how old she is and how long ago the incident occurred, no matter what kind of accent she has or how much money she makes, and no matter whom she associates with."

However, Paula Jones picked her forum and she picked her friends. The forum Jones chose is federal court, and her case has been working its way through the system. The issue before the Supreme Court now is not should Paula Jones be heard -- even though Newsweek's cover story framed it that way -- but rather when should she be heard. The Supreme Court is expected to rule on Clinton v. Jones by the end of this term in late June or early July.

Since Jones is guaranteed her day in court, we will not rally public support for her until NOW leaders have the kind of information they have had in similar cases. We protested in favor of open Senate hearings, but didn't put on our 'I believe Anita Hill' buttons until we had seen and heard both Hill and Clarence Thomas testify under oath. We didn't protest against Bob Packwood until we talked with his accusers and he initially said he would not contest their charges.

Whether intentionally or inadvertently setting NOW up for criticism, Jones declined to talk with NOW President Patricia Ireland, but instead aligned herself with Pat Robertson, right wing publicist Floyd Brown and Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry.

[mntleo2]

16. They Were Silent In My State And Also ...

...in Wisconsin, DC, and NY, I have been working with low income women's groups for a long time. We BEGGED them to help us and they were silent ...we realized were were just one of their embarrassments because we were not wealthy enough. I am sorry but I did not see it.

Cat

[Hydra]

20. Basic sad fact:

Most people like the world the way it is.

The idea of a functioning world where everyone has a fair chance is apparently too much of a risk for them.

[bobbolink]

22. Sadly, I think you're right. I see even poor people comfortable enough to not be willing

to stand with each other.

:cry:

[Hydra]

23. It's the problem of being a predatory species, I think

We don't like each other enough to get along. Possible competition.

I spent most of my young life being told that I was smart enough to "fix the world." Once I really got smart, I asked the deadly question:

"Why is the world the way it is?"

My conclusion:

"People 'like' it that way."

[Hannah Bell]

25. I think it's really interesting...

how many people respond to your post with immediate personal attack.

[mntleo2]

28. They Are Afraid To Hear Any Criticism

...they do not want the status quo to be examined, it might actually affect some change. Why doncha know the Boomers were PERFECT and EVERYTHING they did and said was WONDERFUL. And it all WORKED SO WELL! Well I AM a Boomer and I am telling you it ain't so.

I know what I am speaking about is radical. Even my own class of people are mad at me for saying this, but it is my truth. My minister warned me that this is radical. SOMEBODY has to point out somewhere along the way, the emperor is not only buck nekkid, he is waving in the wind.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

50. Look, dammit, you say it isn't personal, but you keep repeating "boomers" this and "boomers" that.

I'm a BOOMER,and goddam it, I worked hard to make things better for you.

I'm so sick of this shit!!!!

[mntleo2]

58. Of Course You Worked To Make It Better

...I know that! Some of us keep trying to speak truth to power as you so bravely do. I am not talking about you. I am not sure what you mean about not being personal ...to ME it IS personal, I lived it and I know many others who lived similar fates. It was not their fault they had to function under greedy, short-sighted, selfish people who happen to be most of the 1% world.

I am talking about the ones in power we try to talk to who refuse to listen and pretend they do, which at this time happen to be of our generation. It is OK to say that people did not listen even if they ARE of our generation. I agree other generations have also not heard the call ~ to ALL their peril because now they are going to be knocking on the door of the mission as, after a hard day's low paid work, like we have had to do all along. I just do not think my generation was perfect is all and the following ones could learn from our mistakes. Are we so afraid to make a mistake we cannot admit it? How is anyone going to learn from mistakes if we do not cop to them?

I'm just sayin' ...

Cat

[bobbolink]

82. What you're just sayin' is a blanket condemnation.

What you wrote was about all the "hypocrits" who marched, protested, etc.

Well, guess what, I'm ONE OF THEM, so yes, it was a personal slam.

Then you write the same slam about boomers. Well, I are one. I had no choice in that one.. that was my parents doing.

If you don't like being confronted about your blanket slams, then direct your criticisms to the particular behavior you are unhappy with, rather than a blanket criticism to a whole group of diverse people.

YOu've heard of prejudice?

What you did with that blanket criticism and condemnation was PREJUDICE, pure and simple.

Why don't you admit that, clean up your communication, and start over?

Had you talked, instead, about the behavior of those who ignore poor women, I would have whole-heartedly agreed with you.

That WASN'T the case of the women I was with! Many of us WERE very poor, and we were fighting it on a grass-roots level........ with the political anti-war movement at the time, if you will recall!

So, remove me and the women I was with from your blanket criticism.

It's quite simple.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

26. Indeed, thank you.

:kick: & R

[InkAddict]

31. Not exactly sure of the OPs message; however

how can one explain what seems the new attitude that women who don't aspire to higher education, choosing to "play" and therefore "pay" with single parenthood, should be rewarded more by the system than other women who seek help and funding to attain their goals and who demonstrate personal responsibility by not having children until they can give that child the advantage of a stable family life that includes some chance of economic stability.

Are only those that make "bad" choices now more worthy to receive funding for education and career promotions because of the simple fact that they lacked the ambition to pursue an education and obviously now have extra responsibilities that take productivity away from the workplace?

It seems that no good deed/action goes unpunished, and that "safety net" you speak of has now been positioned to readily make life considerably "easier" for those that showed no personal responsibility in the first place, all the while frustrating the discipline and efforts of those that had their priorities in order.

Example: Single and non-parent: no college funds for you; however, if you mess around and deliver, then we'll hand you more funding. (The letter should say so sorry for you, but an award has been made to your child, pending his 18th b-day")

Example: "You know this job isn't one that accommodates family life very well" -- so hand the job promotion to the single-parent who has no degree nor a desire to have one and already has responsibilities that could drain productivity away from the workplace notwithstanding child care tax credits to MOM/DAD.

I just have to keep believing when I tell my daughter there's a better situation awaiting her because she perservered in attaining her degree and hasn't yet "chosen" to pro-create. But, I can see why she is bummed out!

Her path goes at a snail's pace, while collectively we accelerate the pathway of those who didn't want to pay their dues with study and personal responsibilty. It seems as though there is now no need to wait for marriage to create a new life and no penalty for those that do just that. However, if you have not yet become a parent, you should continue to slave at lower-paying/status jobs while your biological clock ticks perilously close to midnight before being rewarded with a job that supports paying back the expensive loans needed to get that good job in the first place thus giving little advantage to your children yet to come.

You got your wish--we're all poor and well on our way to a new feudal system. Whatever were you activists thinking?

As you have been witnessing, the pinnacled rich are not subject to the rules by which the rest of us are restricted, and the gap that creates is widening. It's those self-serving loopholes in an out-of-wack reward system that leaves out the rest of us, without regard to our gender or familial status, that need to be eliminated and thereby effect more balance and opportunity for all.

[mntleo2]

37. What If You Did and Were Deserted?

...over 76% of women on welfare were domestic violence victims and 80% were married. Anther 8% had spouses that got ill or died. The rest had their children believing abortion was not the answer for them, and though scared to death, they are struggling to make ends meet. What if their contraceptives failed? They thought they WERE playing right and planned their kids with a home and family. What if the other partner cannot or will not support their own kids? I know women whose husbands were put in jail for beating the hell out of them, they WERE following the rules and then some and now not only is one of the bread winnsrs not able to help out, THEY ARE IN JAIL. Furthermore these mothers do not have family who can or will help. What are they supposed to do? Can YOU say you are absolutely guaranteed 100% when you marry everything is going to be hunky dunky forever?

You got your wish--we're all poor and well on our way to a new feudal system. Whatever were you activists thinking?

It was not my "wish" for everyone to wind up poor, my activism was to prevent it. Now the "solution" by many elites for welfare mothers is to marry them off spending almost a billion dollars to do so. Great. Force them into the relationship they had just fled for their lives from and to protect their children, or get them into another relationship that will only start the cycle again. Think there are a bunch of "sugar daddies," essentially "wallets with legs" who can hardly wait to marry a mother with two kids? Swell, that outta help...

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[bobbolink]

48. "Are only those that make "bad" choices " "they lacked the ambition to pursue an education "

"those who didn't want to pay their dues with study and personal responsibilty"

"for those that showed no personal responsibility in the first place,"

"they lacked the ambition "

"choosing to "play" and therefore "pay" with single parenthood,"

So spake RAYGUN.

The RAYGUN dems are definitely alive and well.

Then I wonder why poverty is no longer an issue with the Democratic Party.

Conservatives blame all poverty on "personal choices".

Liberals *used* to blame all poverty on systemic causes.

Easy to see where the line is drawn in this post.

[malaise]

36. Great post

We also learned that and it is a painful lesson.

[varelse]

40. Great post, and awesome follow-up replies throughtout the thread

So many women I have known are struggling with these challenges - trying to balance taking care of their older relatives, earning a living, and raising children with little or no help from the father. I'll never forget the graveyard shift worker at the plastic factory (my first "real" job) whose two young kids were sleeping in a camper shell in the back of her truck, because she couldn't afford child care and they were too young to leave at home alone.

Poor people have increasingly less "voice" in our society because the cameras don't point at them and the news outlets will not relay their stories or report on poverty in general, at all. Marches and protests no longer seem to work for that reason - they aren't news no matter how many people participate, or it is the wrong kind of news, if violence is provoked by infiltrators or riot police. Perhaps as the numbers of poor continue to grow while the middle class continues to erode, sheer numbers will finally make the difference. A dismal thought, but it sure looks like that is where we're heading now.

[sepulveda]

41. corrrect

"they only valued MEN'S work, the corporate work, they even denigrated the work women had done over those centuries. "

as simone de beauvoir once famously said (quoting from memory) "women should not be given the choice to stay at home instead of work, because if they are , too many women will make that choice"

feminism for the early feminists was elitist, and it was also NOT about free choice. it was about replacing one defined gender role with another. instead, the proper feminist response is that EITHER gender role (staying at home OR working OR both) should be a matter of choice, and dealt with fairly through the legal system.

the early feminists (and many today) still do not support many poor women and many women of all wealth stratas who make choices they disagree with.

it should be about choice, not about strict roles.

how ironic that many wanted to replace one strict role with another

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. It's sad how many of these responses boil down to:

"If you were as wonderful and resourceful as I am, you wouldn't have anything to complain about."

The older I get, the more I realize that the real divide in this country, the one that's hardest to bridge, is not race, not gender, but CLASS.

[mntleo2]

47. I SO Agree

...and you might say class is about race and gender because this is where you will see most of the poor who ARE female and/or not white. I am not saying white males cannot be poor, what I AM saying is that once you get to the bottom of the rung, if you are female, of another race than white and/or both, you will have thousands of times more road blocks thrown in your way. Now nobody has to say they did not hire you or rent to you because you are ethnically not white, it is because you are poor, and there is not a damn thing that can be said about it because it is perfectly legal. Even though most poor folks ARE the ones who are female and/or not white.

Cat

[bobbolink]

49. Yes, indeed, Lydia..... the Civil Rights issue of this era IS Class!

Since the Dems aren't willing to wake up to that, they will continue to fade into oblivion.

ONe thing I keep coming back to with all these "EDUCATION IS THE ANSWER" nuts.... Do you ever need to find a restroom when you're away from home???

If so, do you want that restroom to be clean and well-stocked?

If so, WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO DO THAT?? The damned CEO????

So many jobs these elitists want away from are IMPORTANT, and the backbone of the whole society!

So, they want everyone to be "educated" (which doesn't mean smart, or able to think for themselves..... it only means a paper for a particular job), then we have a nation of chiefs and no indians, as the old saying went?

What then?

?????

I"m so sick of the inability to think logically through all this!

Hurrah for the women who clean offices and restrooms! Without them, this would be one shitty country!

Hurrah for the women who serve our food! Without them, we wouldn't have any restaurants!

Hurrah for the women who change linen and clean motel rooms! Without them, we wouldn't be able to travel!

HURRAH FOR ALL THE UNDERPAID AND UNDER-APPRECIATED WOMEN!!

[unkachuck]

55. K&R....n/t

[femrap]

56. Regarding the women who have worked

in the Corporation....they chew you up and spit you out. And once you're over 50, you're downsized.

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

And why don't you like women who are intelligent and read? Why do you think that women who read don't care about those you are less fortunate....'By the grace of God go I..'

Do you know how many women have had to take their college degrees off their resumes so they can get a job for $8/hour?

You have no idea.

[mntleo2]

57. Both Of You Have Good Points

Bobby is right. I have a college degree, it did not help one whit ~ because by the time I got it, I was over 40.

I worked in transitional housing and about half of the residents were older women who had raised their families and worked for a wage all their adult lives, some of them veterans. About half of those women had special training and/or Master's degrees and NOBODY would hire them. No druggies, no crime history, non-drinkers, church/mosque/temple attendees. Some had husbands who dumped them for younger women. Some had worked for years for corporations who dumped them before their husbands dumped them. After they turned 50, no matter how much experience, how educated they are, they were unemployable. So they wind up living in their cars. What a freaking waste just because they no longer had perky boobs!

But hey the educators still think getting that degree is, "Hold on Nellie, you are on your way to the Promised Land!" The FEW women who make tenure in these institutions are about all getting an education is worth because that is about the only place where women can work until they die of old age, nobody else would have them. And don't tell ME there isn't a hell of a lot of politics and "sticking them out" getting there. It all depends on whether or not some big egoed nimord looks you up and down and decides you "might be good for the Department, come here Honey and let talk in my office ..." For the rest of us it is kind of like those kids in the ghetto shooting hoops at the park for hours who all think they are going to be basketball stars. Uh-huh, well I know a few homeless women who can tell those tenured women a few things about "working hard" for an education and what it got THEM. ZERO

I think it scares the hell out of academics when someone like Bobby or me comes along to tell them they do not have a clue. Because then they have to face the fact they are not as useful to society as the cleaning lady is, O holy God forbid if some know-it-all is told they *don't* "know-it-all! Why they WORKED for their degrees doncha know ~ as if the woman at the department store they frequent is not working as hard as they did?

Give me a break!

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. I have a friend who's in that situation

Left a good job because of a new boss's workplace bullying (designed to make her quit, no doubt) and was never able to find full-time work again. At 62, having run through all her resources, she took Social Security, knowing that it would keep her from ever getting full benefits. Between that and part-time and temp jobs and help from luckier siblings (without which she would have been homeless), she's surviving. But just barely.

A cousin is in a similar situation, and I know a man who also had to take SS at 62 because he had been downsized at 60 and could never find another job except part-time furniture sales.

That's why I'm so glad that I'm self-employed, despite the insecurities, because so many people I know who thought they were secure are getting thrown out on their butts rght now.

[raccoon]

80. Sure, the educators keep on saying that. It's job security for them.

"But hey the educators still think getting that degree is, "Hold on Nellie, you are on your way to the Promised Land!" "

Just like they keep on telling people there are mucho jobs for people with a Master's in Underwater Basket Weaving out there. If they didn't, no one would go after the degree, and the educators would be out looking for other jobs.

[sandnsea]

72. Brilliant Post

"Because those elitists never valued the work of women in the first place, they only valued MEN'S work, the corporate work, they even denigrated the work women had done over those centuries. They are not feminists, or they would have seen the work of all women as being valuable, but they did not."

"We laughed about it, but we both knew the cost her people paid to get to a place where they even came close to what my grandfather got for white low income workers."

:applause: :applause:

[demgurl]

73. K&R.

Tried to rec but too much time had passed!

[question everything]

76. So, you think that feminism was bad for women?

Women who were dependent on abusive husbands or fathers or brothers or other male members of the family because they could not hold job or opening a business on their own? Who could not have a bank account or a credit on their own name?

Yes, based on the way Hillary is being judged by her voice, her hair, her makeup, it appears that feminism has been taking steps backward.

That today women in Hollywood all have to show as much skin as possible, and all have flowing hair, even if they have to perform surgery or work at a crime scene, or appear in court shows you how we are back to women as sex objects.

You are way off line.

[mntleo2]

79. Feminism Did Not Help Poor Women

...it only helped the elite. 76% of welfare recipients are Domestic Violence victims. Welfare is now a punitive system, thanks to Welfare Deformed, which Hillary Clinton supported and which most women's groups refused to stand against. While the following is extreme, it still happens all over the country TODAY and is not that uncommon. This happened less than 3 years ago:

A woman friend of mine got out of the hospital from almost dying after having the crap beat out of her by her husband. She lived in a lovely home. But she had not seen any of her extended family for 17 years because her husband had isolated her from them. Not allowed access to birth control except for the foam contraceptive he brought home to her he told her to use before he routinely raped her, she had 5 children whom she was forced to give birth to at home because her husband was afraid authorities would see the bruises she had all over her body. But one day he almost killed her, so the truth came out. He was sent to jail, lost his job and she was left with her five kids to find their way. While she was in the hospital her kids were yanked out of their home and temporarily placed in foster care. Reluctantly allowed to return home with their mother (it is cheaper that way, they could care less about their welfare, it is all about rules) she is constantly terrified they will take them away because the System expects that she should ould spend at least a year "proving" she could take care of her kids alone with little or no support, before she was released from THAT system as well.

On crutches and with her jaw wired, she limped into the welfare office. They gave her the tome of paperwork to fill out demanding birth certificates, proof she was bereft, housing costs, food costs, the works. When she finally got to talk with the social worker, the case manager looked at her watch and asked, "So when are you going to work?" After 17 YEARS of isolation, 17 YEARS of being beaten to a pulp, this was the "support" she got. No time for picking up the pieces of her shattered life, no time to go home and spend time with her children who were also traumatized (he beat them too) from having their lives turned upside down, no time to get training so she could support those 5 kids (the youngest as 2). Nope, she was expected to hop right out there and get a McJob, who cared if it was not enough to support them? Why her applauded expectations were to stand at a microphone all day and say, "Do you want fries with that?" and hey she was SO SUCCESSFUL!!! (hear the thundering applause and standing ovation of well fed middle class people, religious wingnuts, legislators, policy makers, and government appointed upper management)

Hillary Clinton supported this. Women's groups were silent. There is little support for women who are poor. And welfare in many states gives that woman less than 2 years to get on her feet from hospital bed to work. She is not allowed to so much as get a GED anymore, she is expected to go to work and live the life of absolute poverty for the rest of her life. Before Welfare DeFormed, 70% of those women used welfare as support to go to school but no longer.

Oh. While this woman is deeply religious, she has come to realize perhaps she did not deserve her treatment even though most fundamental religious institutions of just about all stripes tell her otherwise. Now the government is funding these institutions to "help" her. It has allocated almost a billion dollars to these institutions so my friend can work on her marriage with counseling from some religious nut to go back to her abuser. Or to marry her off to some "sugar daddy" she is supposed to find somewhere who is seen as "a wallet with legs" who will run in there and help to support her and her 5 kids. See they think her whole problem was that she needs to marry or re-marry the man who almost killed her. My friend above, after navigating this System told me recently that maybe it was better for her kids at least to have a home and if it meant she had to give her life, what other choice did she have?

To start the cycle all over again.

Because most classes refuse to even SEE her, the low income woman still has the same "choices" her mother had. Only now, thanks to the shrinking social services net that women like Hillary Clinton applauds to this day (and so does my woman governor) who refuses to consider the consequences about (they were told) and thanks to family isolation, and poverty with family members who cannot help her either, she has nowhere to go. she has little support, with few resources and it is considered that working for minimum wage is "better" than picking up the pieces and finding emotional, financial stability before she can make a good future for herself and her kids. We as a society don't want "no uppity women" who prefer to raise children by themselves instead of subjecting herself to some man now do we? God forbid should we make it possible for her to do this alone, why it would be a BIG threat to our System, almost like a terrorist threat! But hey Paris Hilton will STILL get her tax breaks so she can go shopping ...

Just thought this might be food for thought as to how much feminism has done for these low income women ...

My 2 cents

Cat

[Dorian Gray]

85. Very interesting writing Cat

I enjoyed reading it, and I agree with you for the most part. (Though I do think that the feminist movement was necessary, and these things build upon one another.) But, other than that, I agree with your thoughts that true equality has not quite been achieved, and there is a lot of work to do. Social equality is a goal that we should all have as democrats.