What do you think about same sex classrooms? Are they good for boys? Good for girls?

[CTyankee]

Good article in today's NYT magazine, "Teaching Boys and Girls Separately" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/magazine/02sex3-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin

Are girls better off in all girl classes? Do boys get as much of a benefit from all boys classes, or less? Is this a feminist issue?

I used to think it WAS a feminist issue and I think this article shows the evolution of thinking about it as such.

Should we not even consider sex segregation in classroom?

[Angela Shelley]

1. In every classroom, sex has always been the same.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. I went to an all girls high school

and got an outstanding education. It's a great model. There are so many advantages. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

[Raven]

5. I had the same experience and it was excellent! n/t

[uppityperson]

6. A close friend did to and loved it. Could focus on broader education than

dealing with boy/girl thing all the time. She felt she got enough exposure to that in the rest of the world, good to be able to focus on learning other stuff in school.

[China_cat]

7. But it was a PRIVATE school, wasn't it?

The facts have always been that in public schools, boys get more attention and more money poured into programs for them than girls do. Separate classrooms and programs will only make sure that that gets worse.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. I disagree

We have several schools in the district where I teach that have all boys and all girls classrooms. They are among our most successful schools.

And yes my high school was private.

[JeanGrey]

11. I also went to an all girl's high school and would do it over

in a minute.

[JoePhilly]

33. I went to an All Boy's PUBLIC high school in Philly.

Central High in Philadelphia was an all boy's school ... and right up the street was Girl's High, also public.

Both were outstanding schools. The large majority of kids from both went on to college.

I think that separating boys and girls can be a very good thing. Much less distracting. We saw the girls on the buses in the morning, and again in the afternoon ... and of course at night. But during the school day, we focused on school work.

Some years ago, both went co-ed.

[Iggo]

3. I went to co-ed schools...

...and got an EXCELLENT education.

Beware separate-but-equal, friends. It keeps rearing its head in new and interesting places.

[panader0]

4. I went to the same high school as Obama

Punahou, in Honolulu. There were many pretty girls, and if I remember right, they were rather distracting. I used to have to pull my shirt tails out(a no-no) and carry my books in front of my crotch between classes. But I think mixed schools are better because theyhelp you develop socially.

[MaryCeleste]

36. As did I

I may be teaching there soon too

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. Recently, I asked the question if feminism was about equality...

... or about promoting the interests of women. The response was unambiguous - by a 3:1 ratio, people (and women especially) consider feminism to be about equality.

Education is clearly failing boys. There is no question that equality demands improving the education obtained by boys in america.

Thus, from the standpoint of feminism, the relevant question is how it will affect boys.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2935736

[VotesForWomen]

25. i don't think education is failing boys; i think men are failing boys. they are failing to provide

positive role models for boys that don't depend on distancing themselves from females. as women enter almost every sector of the workforce and society, it becomes increasingly harder for males to establish themselves as "not female," except in destructive, anti-social ways. adult men need to take the lead in showing that boys should be concerned with building core moral and ethical values, such as honesty, hard work, respect for others, compassion, etc., rather than just proving that they are not female. part of the problem is that there are so few male teachers, especially at the lower levels, and why is this? well of course because being an elementary school teacher is a 'woman's job,' and what self-respecting macho guy would lower himself to take a woman's job? not many. you know it's true. men need to figure out that they are no better than women, and they will go a long way toward helping themselves, and society as a whole.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Men rarely become elementary school teachers for two reasons:

a) Their female peers are 50% more likely to get a college degree. They're quite aware that "they're no better than women". Our educational system is quite good at making that understood.
b) The less-safe, less-comfortable, less family-friendly jobs pay better and thus better enable them to fulfill their societally expected role of financially supporting their families.

I find it intriguing how much discomfort some people have when a man observes what's wrong with women, yet experience no cognitive dissonance when wearing the shoe on the other foot. I take your analysis of male psychology under advisement. You're entitled to your stereotypes.

Boys are being failed by school. It is demonstrable, well documented and inescapable.

But you do tangentially hit on a relevant point; male role models. Studies show that in 90% of divorces in which custody is disputed, mom is given custody. Does this not suggest a social solution to the problem that you have identified? Is it not a problem of equality?

[mondo joe]

34. It's ironic. Some years ago when the conventional wisdom was that schools were failing

girls, liberals were appropriately troubled and called for correction.

When it becomes clear boys are being failed, too many shrug it off and the blame the kids.

[JVS]

53. yeah, it's sad.

But also sad is the total disagreement on what constitutes good schooling. If I had kids, I would seriously consider parochial schooling. The curriculum might not be the best, but at least it is set by one vision instead of being the result of a bunch of conflicts.

[MaryCeleste]

40. And the number is nearing record lows

[MaryCeleste]

39. I disagree, the statistics, esp for minority young males is hugely disproportionate

Furthermore the disintegration of families and the loss of male role models should not be just blamed on men, there are a number of factors in play, including the courts and Social Services.

[housewolf]

9. I had 10 years at all-girls schools

and got a great education, something I wouldn't trade for the world. I do think there's something about single-sex education that promotes a better-learning environment for many (I actually think uniforms contribut to that, as well). There's just not the sexual competition-thing going on.

And I agree with the previous poster about the social thing... some social mixing of boys and girls is necessary for kids to learn about the other sex, learn about equality and how to deal with one another, so that all are comfortable in a mixed-gender society.

[tchunter]

10. the bible says that classrooms should be between a man and a women only

maybe same sex education is what has been bringing down the education system

:sarcasm:

[applegrove]

12. Apparently it is really important to keep them together when they are

in their teens. Boys will misbehave and do dirty deeds meanwhile the girls will correct them as a group. That moral suasion is important.

What I heard anyway.

[knitter4democracy]

14. Girls don't always correct them.

Having been there as a student and as a teacher, the idea that women civilize men as they go through puberty is a myth.

[applegrove]

44. I heard it from someone who is also in the know. I don't know what to think now.

I do know that boys who go to boys school can be a little immature when they graduate if they haven't had any contact with girls. Some contact is important no?

[knitter4democracy]

45. But they often do have contact.

My girls at the girls school where I taught for two years still knew their guy friends from elementary and middle schools. They knew friends' brothers and still went to co-ed parties and worked with guys at work and had contact with boys outside of school.

At the co-ed school where I taught after that, many of the boys were sexist pigs. The girls did nothing to stand up to them. I had one, maybe two, in every class that would debate and argue and stand up for themselves, but most of my girl students would sit there silent while the guys would say the more sexist, horrible things. I kept asking the girls to say something and did what I could as a teacher, but it was obvious that the girls had given up ages before. Those boys went off to college thinking that men were the only ones with power except for crazy b****es like me--the girls they went to school with just couldn't override that kind of attitude.

[applegrove]

50. Oh I know that girls self esteem often tumbles as they are with guys in high school.

Where girls are valued only for their looks and not their personalities. I guess maybe it is good for the boys to be around girls so they can mitigate the worst of their habits while it is not so helpful to the girls to be around boys. Why they have started lots of "girls clubs" in schools. To mitigate the negative effect being around alot of boys can have to self esteem.

[knitter4democracy]

13. I have taught in a Catholic girls school and in co-ed classrooms.

I think it depends on the student.

At the girls school where I taught, most of my students did amazingly well. It was small, so they got attention when they needed it, but moreover, every voice was heard, and we worked hard to integrate cliques and make everyone a part of the social scene there. It's an amazing school.

Then I taught in a co-ed Catholic school right after that, same classes and level. Many of my female students were quiet (I couldn't get the class valedictorian to speak up in my AP English class at all), and it was hard to keep the boys from shouting down the few that would speak up. On the other hand, I had female students who were very comfortable in that environment and probably would not have like the all-girls school at all.

As for boys, it really depends on the administration. I dealt with boys from all the boys schools in the area at dances and such, and one of the schools was never a problem--the boys were gentlemen and very respectful. Even the girls said so. The really big boys school in town, though, was a nightmare. Hubby taught there as a long-term sub for a few months, and there were days he came home gnashing his teeth in fury at the sexist, bigoted crap he heard from his students and from fellow teachers. He told me flat-out that, if we stayed in that city, no son of ours would ever go there. From the stories I heard from my principals, it was from the top on down.

So, I do think that single sex education can work. It takes the right administration, however, and a dedicated staff, committed to making sure they don't turn out sexist or biased students. It also isn't for all students--some really need the balancing effect of having people of all genders around them. Others need a safer environment without constant sexual pressure in which to bloom.

[fightthegoodfightnow]

15. As a Gay Man......... I'm for ANYTHING Same Sex

and the promotion and further education of my gay and same sex agenda.

Of course, it unfortunately has also provided safety for pedophiles as it has for the Catholic church.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. Your apparent views against same-sex classrooms could have been better expressed. n/t

[malaise]

17. Interesting article

Thanks.

I always know which of my students attended one sex or co-ed schools.
I have mixed feelings about both since I find young ladies who attended same sex schools are more confident, but I find both young men and young women better adjusted socially after attending co-ed schools.

I don't know how either affects our girls because they are outperforming our young men at all levels.

[TygrBright]

18. Which boys? Which girls?

Because I don't think there are any blanket conclusions to be drawn. Some boys and some girls do better in single-gender learning environments, some do better in mixed-gender learning environments.

Instead of rushing to anoint one approach as "the best" and frantically trying to get it to self-replicate via media hype and "expert" bloviation, why can't we put some effort into learning more about the differences in kids and the learning environments and teaching styles that help various types of kids succeed? And then start figuring out how to identify which kinds of kids will do well in which kinds of educational settings? And how to make them available and accessible to the kids who will benefit most from them?

Oversimplification. More addictive than methamphetamine. And more damaging.

irritatedly,
Bright

[CTyankee]

35. Did you read the article? I think the author covered lots of bases

and it wasn't too onesided. I found it interesting and could see various points of view. I don't think the author herself had an "agenda."

[Clovis Sangrail]

19. I went to an all boy hs, my sister went to an all girl hs

we both think we got great educations.
I remember during and right after high school being repeatedly flabbergasted by what other people weren't taught in school.
(I finally accepted it... I got a damned good education despite those damned priests :D )

That said, not learning to socialize with the other sex wasn't so great.
When I got out of hs I was no better at dealing with girls than I was in 7th grade. :(

I could see a mixed sex school with sex segregated classrooms but a shared lunch yard working out well.
(provided the class rooms actually provided equal education)

[Beausoleil]

55. mixed sex school with sex segregated classrooms

Doesn't work any better than totally single-sex. I went to a co-institutional HS, boys on one side of the building, girls on the other, segregated classrooms. The socialization was not adequate, I also went through dealing with girls no better when I graduated than in 8th grade. The socialization that I think is important takes place in the classroom.

Single-sex education is great academically, I got a great HS education. The social part sucked.

Unfortunately, in my mind, it's usually the boys that are the most insecure and lack self-control who are the disruptive, loudmouthed, out-of control bullies that ruin the experience for everyone else, and a lot of other boys get dragged along in the chaos. I can see why girls do much better in non-coed environments, but I think there is something lost in completely segregating the sexes.

[U4ikLefty]

20. "Boys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses."

There are many other such sayings. Essentially it is the fragile young-male ego that must be stroked for social success.

Young women notice the "reality" & adjust accordingly. Usually at around age 14/15.

It is a very sad state of affairs that keeps these intelligent young women "dumbed down".

I hate this paradigm & it must change, but I don't know if same-sex classes are the answer.

[mondo joe]

21. My daughter is in an amazing small all-girls school. On the other hand, I did terribly at

an all boys school when I was not much older than her. I always benefited by being with the girls more than the boys, at that age.

Of course I was also a gay boy and that presented a bit of a problem.

[demgurl]

22. I was educated in a couple of all girls Catholic schools

from kindergarten to grade twelve. I think it was wonderful and helped us keep our mind on our work. It was a really good experience for me.

[etherealtruth]

23. My experience (I realize anecdotal)

As my sixth grade son entered middle school last fall, we (parents) were informed that the public school was going to conduct an experiment of sorts and assign some of the students to single gender academic classes (electives were to remain co-ed). parents were allowed to opt for their children.

I decided to sit back and see what happened. My son was put into the "segregated group". I had very ambivalent feelings about this; again, I decided to sit back and see what happened. As the year has progressed my son (the youngest of three and definitely NOT my star academic performer) has performed better than he ever has (went from a habitually low "B" student to an all "A" student) and seems much happier with school in general.

The fact that elective classes (art, music ...) are taught co-ed allows him to interact with the opposite sex.

For us it has been a good experience.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. This seems like a good approach. n/t

[VotesForWomen]

24. makes as much sense as same race classrooms. reality is not gender segregated, thank god. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

26. Bad idea. nt

[B Calm]

30. It would be better for the boy. It would be a lot less distraction. All

I ever wanted to do was stare at the girls and imagine. . .

But then if you look at it from a right-wing point of view, there's a possibility without the females present in the classroom, the boys might end up as flaming homosexuals.

[mondo joe]

31. As a flaming homosexual who spent a year in an all boys school, I can only tell you

it was hell for me.

[B Calm]

32. lol

[AngryOldDem]

37. I think a more pressing issue is the design of classrooms themselves.

As in these "open-floor plan" schools where everybody else sees what everybody else is doing; where desks are "clustered" together into "pods" or "neighborhoods;" where kids' attention is drawn to everywhere but where they should be focusing.

This came into vogue in the 1960s -- I spent second and third grade in such classrooms that were separated only by moveable blackboards -- then went out briefly, and now is making a return. I see these types of layouts as a much bigger impediment to learning than mixed-sex classes, especially if kids have trouble with paying attention and other issues.

Sorry to take this off topic.

[kwassa]

47. Making a return???

Schools in that era that were built to the open plan later ended up putting walls up. No one ever considered the noice factor when they were built.

This same problem exists, incidently, with all these modern open-plan houses, a trend that will probably not last. Too much noise, too much distraction.

[JackRiddler]

38. Terrible for boys. Might be good for girls. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. I think the reverse might be true.

An all boys classroom (might? does?) channel boys competitive nature in productive ways.

[JackRiddler]

59. No doubt it does wonders for the alphas' self-esteem...

As one of the boys who would have been crushed underfoot by the bullies, I'm not as enamored of the idea.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Someone posted elsewhere that perhaps just the academic classes

could be segregated. :shrug:

Competition isn't all bad - when it's channeled to useful purpose. I'd rather kids competed on the basis of english grades than getting picked for the basketball team.

[JackRiddler]

65. Hey, both of the forms of competition you mention are good...

The deadly competition is for who gets to be "popular" and define "popular," who gets to lead the bullies or the cool kids, who gets the high ground for designating group objects of hatred, contempt and exclusion. This form of mammalian/reptilian regression is worse (and infinitely more monotonous) in all-male groups.

[alarimer]

41. Is it really the separate classes that make the difference or the smaller classes?

Almost all same-sex classes are in PRIVATE schools which have much smaller classes than public schools. I think you compare experience between private and public schools at all. Private schools get to be much choosier in who goes there- they pick the cream of the crop. Thus, the experience is much more positive without having to deal with more "troubled" kids you might find in public school.

The solution to fixing our public schools is reducing class sizes (to maybe 10-12 per class. Expensive I know but it will take something drastic like that).

[MrSlayer]

42. The one year I went to high school with girls I fell off the honor roll.

Because I was too busy with them to care much about classes. I went back to the all-boys school the following year and went back to honors. For me, it was better to be segregated.

[PassingFair]

60. When did you grow out of that distractable temperament? n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

43. Boys and girls learn differently

Theres more to it than that, sure.. but when you get down to it, modern classrooms fail boys and are seemingly geared more towards girls.

[Malikshah]

46. Is the world same sex?

Education should be looked at under the rubric of a different three Rs

The old Three Rs are : Readin, Writing, Rithmetic...

The new Three Rs should be:

Respect
Rational Thought
Responsibility

In this case-- same sex classrooms do little to promote the socialization necessary to succeed in the world.

If anything, I would argue that same sex classrooms help perpetuate the more regressive tendencies in society.

[Harry Monroe]

48. I attended public high school in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana

In Metairie, a suburb of New Orleans, from 1976-1980. The high schools in the parish were segregated by sex from 1964-1981 because the racist, pinhead Jeff Parish school board decided that since they had to desegregate by race, then they would segregate the high schools by sex. Can't have the black guys going to school with our white girls now, can we??

:sarcasm:

It finally took a lawsuit to desegregate them by sex once again in 1981. I was one of the last all boy classes to graduate from East Jefferson High School in 1980.

Edited for the sarcasm thingie!! I hope that wasn't necessary but you never know!!

[bemildred]

49. It's OK for kids that want it. It's not OK for kids that don't want it.

Believe it or not, not long ago there was a big fight to integrate girls into boys-only schools, and to get girls the right to the same education boys get. I'm not ready to just throw those gains out again.

[bamacrat]

51. Bad for all.

It is an essential part of growing up, interacting with the opposite sex.

[BoneDaddy]

52. What about for homosexual or bisexual students

I imagine a same sex school or classroom would be as distracting, if we are addressing the reason being sexual attraction as the main obstacle.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. i went to a all girls school. if i had a daughter i would send her to one as well.

teachers uniformly tend to perpetuate sexist attitudes when they have boys and girls in the same room. (picking boy to answer math/science questions over girls)

i think it was easier for me to be assertive in the absence of boys. after that, i was used to being assertive in the classroom and in college didnt care that there were boys around.

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. I think it would be equally good for boys. For the same reasons. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. any study i have seen shows that boys are preferred in schools, so i dont know

that boys would have any negative/positive gains from this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

64. You mean the ones written by the American Association of University Men?

Oh, that's right... there is no such thing.

Studies which show that males are given preference at school have a strong burden of proof - that the obvious, measurable and demonstrable academic lag that boys face isn't a manifestation of the opposite.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. I'm against it on moral grounds.

Strikes me as the equivalent of racial segregation, and the arguments for it rely on age old stereotypes.

[PassingFair]

62. I think black and white children should be separated, too.

:sarcasm:

Let's split 'em up by social stratum while we're at it.

I simply CAN'T be expected to learn amongst the RABBLE!!!
Their shabby clothes are SO .... distracting!
They wear OLD NAVY!!!1!!


I went to mixed gender public schools.
I work in mixed gender companies.
My children have mixed gender friends!
The horror! The horror!

I have to deal with the "distractions" somehow.

"Somehow" I do...

[marions ghost]

66. girls are better off

academically in same-sex classes, while I don't think it makes as much difference for boys.

I think you could achieve the goal of helping girls assert themselves and improve academically by facing the issue head on and dealing with it --within co-ed schools.