What percentage of your income would you give up, to be "worry-free"?

[SoCalDem]

In Denmark, apparently, they are taxed at 50%...

BUT

Denmark pays people to attend college (without time deadlines)

Maternity-paternity leave is PAID

Health care is paid for through that tax

Old age pensions are paid through that tax

Unemployment benefits are paid trhough that tax

Child care is paid through that tax


..............................................

What percentage of YOUR income is used for the above items? some are paid pre-tax income and some are paid with after-tax income, so it may be hard to figure..and most people pay different rates of tax, but if you took your GROSS pay and started deducting the above expenses, I'm guessing you would hit the 50% mark pretty quickly...and still have the uncertainty of NO control of expenses with our current system.

( except for the very rich, but the 50% they haveLEFT, would also still be huge..and more than enough for them to live very comfortably)

The costs I listed will hit every family, whether one has children or not, since society "pays" for the inequity of education through our lopsided class structure.

I am also guessing, that as college became a "right", prison expenditures would drop dramatically.

[fenriswolf]

1. well if we had a free educational system

I would probably be making more then I am now with a degree. I would have no problem giving up 50% of my income to have those things. In a heart beat.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

2. 100%.

But I worry about a lot of shit.

[NightWatcher]

3. 90% and I'm working on it

good post

[Tuesday Afternoon]

4. Can I have a job, first?

please.

[SoCalDem]

6. Sure... and until then..you may have the unemployment income

along with the health care and the income necessary while you go to college:)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. Good Lord, Momma !! I have died and gone to heaven.

I see the pearly gates and the heavens have opened up and I can hear the choir singing. Voices like angels. Oh, they are :o ;) :D

[Manifestor_of_Light]

18. But what if you're unemployed and already well educated?

The idea that Americans are not educated, and need to go to college more to be retrained, so they would be employed, is a myth. Employers don't care what kind of skills you have and education; they just want to destroy the middle class and keep all the money for themselves, as far as possible. Now they're wondering why there is no middle class to buy their goods and services. Duhhhhh!!!

[dkf]

5. Problem is when your govt gives you all that stuff then you have to be

extra worried it doesn't collapse and that it is responsible enough to sustain its promises.

If I had to depend on this government now for all the things you listed, I'd be petrified.

[SoCalDem]

8. Most people are petrified NOW, and they are personally responsible for all those things

BUT they are totally at the whim of a boss who may sell them out at a moment's notice or an insurance company who may cut them off any time, or price them out of insurance

[dkf]

12. I'm sure you are right.

[mitchtv]

13. I'm depending on people like HealthNet and AT&T right now

You trust them anymore than a government?

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. You depend on your government for all that stuff now.

Just indirectly, after everyone else gets their cut.

[tkmorris]

17. A Reagan Democrat eh?

He used to say very similar things.

Right now, for most of us who want health care, we have to rely on a system whose market incentives are to extract as much money as possible from our pockets while providing the least possible care. Call me crazy, but that petrifies me far more than would worrying over the imminent collapse of the government.

[dkf]

30. Have you seen how much our Govt owes?

And we spent 3 trillion dollars on the war.

I'm foreseeing definite financial problems in our future.

[HereSince1628]

7. I've tried that...I gave up about 2/3s ...

I still worry. I suppose I'm one of those who are just worriers.

Since income is a huge part of your credit score for things like car and home insurance I'm more worried than I ever was about holding onto coverage.

BTW I am pretty certain the insurance companies WANT YOU WORRIED.

[CONN]

9. hey...

I think I pay the following:
Social Security 6.2%
State Tax 7%
Federal Tax 28%
Medicare 1.45%
State unemployment tax

I also pay $15,000 property tax (my brother in the UK doesn't pay property tax) this is about 15%

So, let's see, that's about 57%

Glad I live in a country that embraces Capitalism (with homelessness and lack of healthcare for the losers) and not one of those tax-and-spend socialist countries. I am being sarcastic on this last point.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

19. You forgot all she sales taxes and "User fees"

If you add in health care it gets worse.

By the time you pay the rapidly rising costs of fuel, food and shelter, you are lucky to have anything left.

[CONN]

39. and think......

I pay more tax than by brother in th UK.
I have to pay for private heath insurance (about 5% additional)
and yes all these extra taxes that I can't keep track of (E911 on phone bill, SUI, transit)
I pay for my kids to go to college -- it was free for my brother's kids (that may have changed in UK -- but the fees are not as much as state schools here).

he pays a TV tax and rates, but seems to have stress free life. Plus if he loses his job he can stay on the dole longer than I can collect unemployment insurance)

[spooky3]

44. the state and fed (income) tax rates you list

are probably marginal rates. The actual average (overall) rate you pay, relative to your gross income, is probably a lot lower, closer to 3% and 18%, depending on what state you are in and a lot of other factors.

You also must have a very nice house and live in an area with extremely high property taxes, such as NJ, if you pay $15K per year. Where I am (DC area), $15K would be paid on about a $1.5+ million property.

But your point is still a good one. Also, you could add in your contributions toward your retirement plan, if you have one or are saving on your own. In many industrialized countries these are paid by taxes/govt. rather than by employers.

[CONN]

48. Good guess.... I am in NJ...

And yes I did not include exemptions (mostly from mortgage interest) from my federal tax rate.

Point is that our tax rate is comparable to other countries that offer better services.

The toll roads that many of us have to drive in NJ are anotyher form of tax

[spooky3]

62. that's part of it

but also, for the fed. income tax, you pay 0% on the first $x of income; then a low% on the next $y, etc. It's only on the top part of your income that you would pay the marginal tax rate, which would be the highest percent. The average rate overall would be lower as a percent of your total income.

For example, if single, you pay 0% on the first $7,825 of taxable income; then 15% up to $31850, then 25%, etc.

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html

I agree with your point - at least for people in high tax states.

[hfojvt]

10. I am wondering about that 50% number

and guessing that it is not flat. I make $14,000 a year. If I paid 50% in taxes, I could not survive on the remaining. However, there are a couple of things too. My employer is paying $3,000 for my health care and also $918 in FICA taxes that I never see, and unspecified amounts for unemployment insurance (I have little idea how much if any) and presumably, although they are not funding it properly, my employer is paying something into my pension fund. That would be $560 a year if they are matching what they force me to pay. So really I am making $18,478 a year, but $4,478 is going to hidden taxes.

Still, I am guessing their tax system is more progressive and that people are not paying the same rate at $15,000 per year as they are at $55,000 per year or at $550,000 per year or $55,000,000 per year.

[sandnsea]

11. Free college is really the best thing we can provide

I would give A LOT for free college. A LOT. So many of our other problems would be resolved if people could go to college for free, even just a couple classes at a time. It doesn't have to be for a degree, maybe it's to learn plumbing or electrical. So many people would feel like they finally have, what's that word, oh yeah, HOPE.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. Electrical Engineers have a very high unemployment rate

why do people think a college education will fix things? We need a base of jobs that provide a two earner faimly middle class status straight out of HS..

Free trade is crap..

[SoCalDem]

23. College need not be only about degrees.. It could be a continual "training ground"

a new technologies pop up.. The problem we have now , is that many wokers ENTERED the workforce with skills that were enough THEN, but now are not. These same people are burdened with family obligations and cannot afford to take time off to go back to school, and even if they had the time, they could not afford the cost..

And with insurance(if they are that lucky) tied to their jobs, they have no chance to branch out and try something different.. If they leave the job to go to school again, they lose their coverage..

[sandnsea]

24. Somebody has to do those jobs

Electricians make very good money in my town. It's very difficult to find good trades people. It's going to get even tougher as boomers retire. Nobody ever made a good middle class income right out of high school. That always took years of otj training.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

31. An electrition is not an engineer

I respect them and they know their stuff but they are in what I think would bea field you dont need college for..

[sandnsea]

41. You do now

You need a degree or certificate to do just about anything except run a cash register.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

45. LOL Ill have to tell my family friend who works as a repairman

makes really good money with a HS diploma. Hell I know IT Engineers who dont have a college degree...

[mike_c]

14. currently most of us are taxed to support the MIC primarily....

I'd be happy to pay higher taxes if ALL or nearly all of those taxes were spent to support social programs. I am PROUD to help my fellow citizens, and happy to accept their help when I need it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

20. Individule: No more than 35% Corporation 50%

Sorry but in the words of Jefferson any government powerful enough to give youeverything you want is powerful enough to take everything you have..

[SoCalDem]

22. That's happening right now, with no safety net in sight..n/t

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. LOL you think its bad now

Imagine when there is only one source for health care, and other 'needs' when another bushlike regime comes to power how much more can they strip our liberties? What could we do to stop them? Hell given that 'they' will be the ones that give us health care, and college education, and day care, and ..... We will probabally welcome alittle screw tightening by our DC overlords..

[SoCalDem]

36. Taking something away, once you have it..is harder to do than

getting it in the first place..

People see the millions of marchers/strikers in Europe and wonder why.. It;s because they HAVE something they want to protect..

Getting millions in the streets here is harder to do, because many of the people who have insurance & the means to afford the other tyhings on my list, are not all that eager to protest to get OTHER people those same things..

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

37. Really?

All bush has done is a few executive orders to take away our privacy rights, our right to due process, and other things *far* more fundamental to freedom and free college..

[SoCalDem]

38. They are fundamental, but most people do not write out a check for them every month

:)

Assume that you had the listed items..and the gubbment said they werte going to take them away, and you would not have to write a check for $1500.00 (made-up number) a month..

That would get people to sit up and take notice..and maybe into the streets..

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

42. You are missing the point

Once we ned the government for every aspect of our daily lives it will be easier for thm to take away other freedoms..

[treestar]

43. Denmark does not seem to be having this problem.

It's when they claim to have to protect us from crime and terrorism that they take away our freedoms.

[Hydra]

25. We have a gov't powerful enough to take away everything we have

And isn't interested in what we NEED.

Since we're already screwed, I'm open to suggestions.

[Hydra]

26. 100%

If we had a gov't that provided:

food
water
shelter
education
medical care
communications access(internet/phone/etc.)

I'd be happy to pay every cent I have. On the other hand, I'm doing that already and not getting all of the above.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

34. Wow kinda like slave masters

[Kermitt Gribble]

27. I'd give up

whatever people in Denmark have to give up - maybe more. The things listed are vital to having a healthy, educated society. Obviously, that is not what we have.

[readmoreoften]

28. Is it 50% for everyone or only the rich? My European friends pay 35%.

And for their all-inclusive 35% they get free education, great public transportation, and medical care. No Iraq, though. It goes up to 50% for the very wealthy and corporations, though. The people I'm referring to, one is in Austria the other Germany, but the Austrian has also lived in France and the Netherlands and paid taxes there.

[SoCalDem]

29. It could just as easily be 35%.. I was curious about how MUCH

people would be willing to give up.. It's odd because some people get all exorcised about 25% or 30 % or whatever..without even considering the trade off...

and there is never any apples-to-apples comparisons for people to even educate themselves..

anytime universal health care is discussed, all we hear about is how people have to wait a long time in Canada (not true)

or how if income were to be redistributed, people would have no incentive to work harder (we already work "harder" than most others, and we get next to nothing for it)

and with all the risk piled on our shoulders, we ARE spending 100% and then some...and get nothing promised to us..

[Ghost Dog]

35. That's correct.

I don't know the details in Denmark's case, but 50% will be more like the top marginal rate of tax on the highest incomes, the average may be 35%, with lower-paid paying less and a lower threshold in place below which no income tax is payable.

Denmark's taxes, as in other Scandinavian countries, will be somewhat higher than elsewhere in the EU particularly than in the south, and their infrastructure and social services etc. will be of higher quality than most.

Note that VAT (a sort of sales tax) is high in the EU - up to 17.5% or more, depending on which goods and services are involved; and certain products such as petrol/gasoline, diesel fuel etc. are very highly taxed.

All of which, as long as it's money well spent, as it mostly is (and certainly is much less spent on military stuff/adventures than in the US), although there is plenty of room for caveats there, is fine by me.

[Crabby Appleton]

47. Denmark tax rates are approx 39% to 59%

VAT & excise tax approx 25%.

[Ghost Dog]

58. Wow, that is much higher than the average, then.

With much higher quality than the average services in return, for sure. :hi:

[ileus]

32. the Average in the USA is 56% isn't it?

[CONN]

40. I think thats about what I pay...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2950743&mesg_id=2950790

[Festivito]

46. EXCUSE ME, what do you suggest we ARE PAYING?

Even if my company pays it, I'M EARNING IT.

If I make 50K/yr, and after taxes get
40K to spend on:
1K for a city with police and trash pickup
2K for state with laws and a medicaid system
4K for education collected somehow (probably property tax)
5K FICA/MC, my part
2K to retire safer
1K term life insurance in case I die

BUT I GET:
12K health care (BC/BS family if no one's sick)
.5K dental/eye care
3K retirement fund (6% on 50 but sb on 75)
5K FICA/MC company part
4K disability/unemployment/sick days
.3K insurance (2X salary lump)
Could include accounting, office, higher education, continuing education, but won't.

I get 25K, I make 75K, and this 67% you compare to 50% where my benefits ARE NOT TRANSPORTABLE, and theirs are!

You ask how much would I pay?

Are you nuts?

I'd pay the 50% instead of the two-thirds I do pay.

[hay rick]

49. quick calculation

Quick look at my last pay stub from last year gets me up to 48% without paying for any college or maternity expenses. I have additional sources of income but also additional tax burdens that aren't payroll deduction including property taxes and sales taxes.

Of course, you're preaching to the choir.

[yardwork]

50. Very good thread. k&r.

I figure that I pay a lot more than 50% right now, without any certainty, while living in a country that immorally blocks many of its people from access to the things I enjoy.

[Lorien]

51. Considering how deeply I'm buried in medical debt right now

50% seems like a bargain.

Middle and lower class people in the US of A CANNOT afford to have poor health, period.

[Lorien]

52. It's worth noting that Denmark is also the HAPPIEST place on earth:

Denmark 'happiest place on earth'
Image of a mouth smiling
Must be a Dane.....
If it is happiness you are seeking a move to Denmark could be in order, according to the first scientist to make a world map of happiness.

Adrian White, from the UK's University of Leicester, used the responses of 80,000 people worldwide to map out subjective wellbeing.

Denmark came top, followed closely by Switzerland and Austria. The UK ranked 41st. Zimbabwe and Burundi came bottom.

A nation's level of happiness was most closely associated with health levels.



Prosperity and education were the next strongest determinants of national happiness.

Mr White, who is an analytic social psychologist at the university, said: "When people are asked if they are happy with their lives, people in countries with good healthcare, a higher GDP per capita, and access to education were much more likely to report being happy."

He acknowledged that these measures of happiness are not perfect, but said they were the best available and were the measures that politicians were talking of using to measure the relative performance of each country.

He said it would be possible to use these parameters to track changes in happiness, and what events may cause that, such as the effects a war, famine or national success might have on the happiness of people in a particular country.

Measuring happiness

He said: "There is increasing political interest in using measures of happiness as a national indicator in conjunction with measures of wealth.

"A recent BBC survey found that 81% of the population think the government should focus on making us happier rather than wealthier.

"It is worth remembering that the UK is doing relatively well in this area, coming 41st out of 178 nations."


HOW THE NATIONS RANKED ON HAPPINESS
1st - Denmark
2nd - Switzerland
3rd - Austria
4th - Iceland
5th - The Bahamas
23rd - USA
41st - UK
90th - Japan
178th - Burundi

He said he was surprised to see countries in Asia scoring so low, with China 82nd, Japan 90th and India 125th, because these are countries that are thought as having a strong sense of collective identity which other researchers have associated with well-being.

"It is also notable that many of the largest countries in terms of population do quite badly," he said.

He said: "The frustrations of modern life, and the anxieties of the age, seem to be much less significant compared to the health, financial and educational needs in other parts of the world."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm

[Catchawave]

53. I've heard many European countries have much higher

taxes, they seem pretty happy.

[readmoreoften]

56. How it works is they don't have state and city taxes, etc. Just one big lump tax.

My friends pay 35%. (Apparently if you are very wealthy you pay more) But they don't pay social security, state, city, etc. When I do my taxes it comes to about 35%. They get free higher education, great public transportation, public space, free medical, social security--in Holland they get 2 years off to "discover themselves" during mid-life crisis time.

We get Iraq.

[Zhade]

54. Here in CA we get hit at 42% - fuck YEAH I'd give up another 8% for all that!

NT!

[SoCalDem]

59. And with the 50%,there would be no need for the VA, or Medicaid or Medicare or SS

or workers comp...and malpractice insurance premiums would go away too, since a not-for-profit medical system is not as adversarial, and the need for lawsuits would diminish

all the money spent on those things would be back into the treasury for other things..

Also, with a flat 50%, and all the necessities covered, the IRS might not even be all that necessary..

People who are on payroll, have their incomes documented, and people who earn money from dividends, trusts etc, also have 1099's on those as well..

Might there be an underground economy where people would earn extra, under the table,,probably..but they do that NOW..

Without the constant worry of how people will afford these necessities, the money the have LEFT would be freed up to actually stimulate the economy, and create jobs for the former insurance scammers to take..

I would go in step further and re-regulate the banking/lending industry and reinstate usury laws, so that people could get a grip on their present debt, and perhaps work their way to solvency..

A non-profit medical system should also be able to pay the medical professionals well..

Solvency is all about what you have left over...not what you "make" on paper ..

the rich will always have more than the rest of us, but it's high time they started paying for the society that allows them to amass such great wealth..and to spread a little of the peace of mind to the people who actually do the work..

[casus belli]

55. And they are actually getting a deal if you break it down.

Most people go into debt to educate their children, start a family, pay for childcare while working, etc. While 50% seems like a lot on the surface, the truth is, we're really paying more than that now.

The problem with this, is that conservative think in this country is too rampant and would never allow concessions that would better our society. It's an "I earned this, why the hell should I give it away" mentality, not realizing that all of these things benefit them as well. If you look at all the peripheral benefits in a system like Denmark's, it becomes evident that other by products from the lack of things like education result in other undesirable things which people don't typically equate with any of the problems being addressed. Crime, poverty, mental illnesses and socio-economic disparity being just a few such examples.

[taught_me_patience]

57. Not much

I don't have much worries as it is now.

Public universities are quite cheap. I currently have zero school debt. However, I'm getting an MBA and my fiance is a doctor. We will have over 160k in school debt. However, the total payment is so miniscule compared to our incomes that I hardly even think abou it. The interest is government backed and is well below market interest rates and well below inflation.

Health care - paid through employer
Maternity leave - not much of a worry.
Old age pensions - not too worried, as we save plenty of money.
Child care - cheap relative to our salaries.

The thing that seems good about denmark is the 20+ days of vacation. I only get 13 days a year and always feel like I wish I had more vacation.

[Dorian Gray]

60. With state, city and federal taxes

I'm already in the 40+% range. It's not so far off from the European rates, and we get far far less, particularly in terms of health care. I would be willing to pay up to 50%, but they would really have to clean up the taxation system and provide services while eliminating the bullshit expenditures that our government makes. (I'd prefer to see less subsidizing of certain industries and more social care for our entire population.)

[varelse]

61. I thought most of us had already hit or passed the 50% mark

in total taxes paid annually? Frankly, if I give up even more than that out of what I'm currently making, I'd be living rent-free, but hardly worry-free.