Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Conservative Paradigm of Poverty

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:28 PM
Original message
Conservative Paradigm of Poverty
"Increasingly in recent times we have come first to identify the remedy that is most agreeable, most convenient, most in accord with major pecuniary or political interest, the one that reflects our available faculty for action; then we move from the remedy so available or desired back to a cause to which that remedy is relevant." John Kenneth Galbraith, 1986

The Conservative paradigm of poverty goes back to the beginnings of this nation. We Americans have always liked to envision our country as The Land Of Opportunity. We are proud of the notion that everyone can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", and "make it" in the U.S. We believe there are economic opportunities for all -- everyone has a share of the pie, as long as they work for it.

This pride led to the prideful quotation from Benjamin Franklin, "God helps those who help themselves", which is antithetical to the teachings of the Bible. We place high value on individualism and self-reliance. We hold on to the belief that hard work is rewarded and if you are a "good person" you will be held in high regard. Concerning poverty, we may feel sad to see people in poverty, but we don't see it as unfair. If people work hard, they will "make it: so how could it possibly be unfair?

In this belief system, the burden falls solely on the individual. If the person fails to succeed, it is due totally to their own failings. They were lazy, they made the wrong choices, or they just plain aren't too bright. Therefore, they pretty much got what they deserved.

The model in this paradigm for "fixing" poverty, then would be the stern, authoritarian parent --"Shape up or ship out", "You made your bed, now you can lie in it". This paradigm holds firmly to the carrot and stick model. This mindset leads directly to the sort of treatment encountered recently by a DUer: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=230x2108#2337

"One of the reasons that American poverty is so severe is precisely the result of this mindset. The old paradigm offers little in the way of ideas for truly understanding and addressing poverty, and, in fact, provides a justification for doing little." One Nation, Underprivileged page 175.

Even those in poverty tend to reply on these beliefs. Interestingly, they often see themselves as an exception and everyone else in poverty as stereotypically flawed.

To return now to Galbraith, and his assertion that we assign a "fix" first, and give reason to it later, I find many upsetting and even disgusting proposals for how to reverse poverty in conservative writings. So disgusting, in fact, that I find myself trying to ignore them. One can easily see the stern parent in the background of these proposals. For that reason, I will give only a few examples here:

Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation, a Conservative think tank, contends that poor people in the U.S. today live much better than the average citizen of 100 years ago, so therefore poor people live comfortably in the U.S. He points to a high level of ownership of entertainment technology as part of his rationale. He also contends that poor people in the U.S. have a diet high in nutrition. One can only wonder why there is so much diabetes and other chronic illnesses connected to deficient diets in the U.S. among poor people.

Even more curiously, Conrad F. Meier contends that poor people in the U.S. do not lack access to health care. I will leave it to the reader to figure out his reasoning.

In replying to Barbara Ehrenreich's book about minimum-wage workers, Larry Schweikart says the difficulties of the working poor are overstated. "There was a flip side to Ehrenreich's self-imposed limits: 'I had no intention of going hungry.' Harsh as it may be, though, there is a powerful incentive when one goes hungry. It was exactly that kind of incentive, both in positive terms of advancing and in negative terms of utter failure, that rendered her experiment unrealistic." Poverty And The Homeless, pg 49.

Another gem by Robert Rector: Promoting Marriage Would Reduce Poverty. Poverty and the Homeless, pg 135.
"The President proposes to spend $300 million per year on his pilot program to promote healthy marriage." One can hope this doesn't mean a return to women being stuck in abusive marriages at the rate of the 1950s.

On page 47 of the above book, Rector says of Ehrenreich, "Her overall message is incredibly depressing and drenched in hopelessness."

I believe that is one of the main reasons why conservatives and liberals alike, either in the political realm or in individual relationships, do not want to deal with the issue of poverty. It is INDEED incredibly depressing and drenched in hopelessness.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
KT2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Something they leave out
when it comes to our country's beginning is that no one was pulling themselves up by the bootstraps - they had slaves doing their labor.
The discussion of poverty through the ages is certainly loaded with myths.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. They also relied on Indians.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. My northern ancestors NEVER owned slaves. THey did all
their own physical labor, thank you.

The southern ones were another thing............

Don't tar everybody with that same brush.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. You Might Consider ...
...this is not the point of the post. It is not like she said to herself while writing this, "Buuuhahahahaaaa, Oooo, I think I will write an article that points directly at kestra91316 and accuse his/her ancestors of being slave owners, won't that be FUN?"

Sheesh

No, she is writing about things that matter to her and hoping someone will listen that to what is far more than about whether or not YOUR family were slave owners. Try not to take is personally, she is *not* pointing to one person. LISTEN with your heart and you will hear she is talking about more than that.

Being accused of the same thing when I write, I am realizing that often when the reader gets all bent out of shape like that perhaps it is a way of avoiding the main issues within the article. Then some readers do not have to actually consider the whole article and be motivated. This way they can continue to sit on their ass because they made themselves get all twitterpated about one thing and ignored the rest of the message.

I am not saying you are doing that, I am just sayin' ...



My two cents

Cat In Seattle
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I was responding to KT2000's post, not the OP.
KT specifically points the finger at everyone of the time as being slaveholders. Incorrect and inappropriate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
29. misunderstanding
I think that it is clear that KT2000 is referring to the wealthy and powerful, those who developed and promote the narrative, not about you or your ancestors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. Up until the Revolution, New York City was the center of the slave trade in N America.
The economy of the United States - North AND South - was built on slavery.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
100. There is more to the north than NYC. Many of us in the midwest
landed in Philadelphia and moved west to fertile farm land where we are often still found. No slaves - many civil war soldiers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
antigone382 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. The vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves either.
Though slave-owning ceased in the North long before it did in the south, even in the south it was mostly wealthy land-owners who owned slaves. Most of the population were subsistence farmers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trthnd4jstc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
92. In fact there were Southerner Whites against Slavery.
I do not have a ready reference, but I read that there were Southern Whites who were against succession, and slavery. Life is complicated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. One county in Alabama seceded from Alabama.

But the State's Rights militia put down the County's Rights rebellion in short order.

West Virginia, of course, *did* secede to form their own state.

And New Orleans didn't put up much of a fight against the Union invasion as a large percentage of the population there didn't give a fuck.

I'm sure there were tens if not hundreds of thousands of secret Union sympathizers in the South.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #95
126. Alabama
In the northern counties of Alabama the majority of young men left their homes, went north and joined the Union armies. That was also true in western Virginia, Maryland, western North Carolina, and eastern Tennessee and Kentucky.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. completely irrelevant
Poor people North or South did not own slaves - they didn't own much of anything. The wealthy people North and South did often own slaves - check the dates that slavery was outlawed in the various northern states sometime.

The point is that the self-reliance narrative, used to defend and protect wealth disparity and promoted by the wealthy and powerful few, is a "do as I say, and not as I do" lie meant to keep the peasants in line.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
41. Maybe true, but if it had been cost effective for farmers in the cold states
to own slaves, they would've done it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
74. uhm...maybe
It is difficult to say, there was a cultural difference between north and south in terms of who settled and the type of agrarian lifestyle that was being sought. The North was settled by those that formed somewhat more egalitarian communities at least in terms of agriculture rooted communities.

The slave-plantation model was a imported in from the Caribbean as means of cash cropping and most northern immigrants, many of whom were religious dissidents, were not as comfortable with that sort of lifestyle.

This is not to say that the Southerners were all sinners nor the Northerners saints. I would agree with previous posters that slavery was primarily a crime of the rich against the poor and the stains and scars of that crime persist to this day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #74
86. Altruistic intentions actually evolved into slavery as well.

How does a poor person immigrate to North America from England? In the north that was the immigrant's problem. In Virginia they instituted the following system:

o people who spent a certain length of time as an indentured worker got a plot of land
o people who sponsored indentured workers got land for every worker they sponsored.

So wealthy land owners helped poor people immigrate to North America. The land owner got both the benefit of their labor and additional land to increase their wealth.

These same rules applied to the first Africans brought over to Virginia. After their period of servitude they were given their own property.

But evil men will exploit any system. First they ensured the best lands went to themselves. Their formerly indentured workers got hilltop sections where farming was difficult to impossible. Then they started giving the former workers non-contiguous land. "We just promised you 40 acres. Nobody said we couldn't give you 40 1-acre plots distributed evenly across the entire colony."

Finally, they ran out of land before they ran out of workers. So they told the poor European immigrants this was because too much land had been given to the African workers. They told the European poor that this problem could be solved if they would just allow the wealthy land owners to permanently enslave the Africans.

And thus was the Virginia slave economy born through the manipulation of a plan originally intended to help the poor.

I was originally going to call it an "unintended consequence". But while it was not the intention of those who wrote the policy, there was nothing unintended about what eventually happened by those who came along later and manipulated it for themselves.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trthnd4jstc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Thank you for your reply.
I appreciate what you wrote. This is all part of our past.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
104. Uhm..
This may be one of the roots of the virginia slave-agricultural system, but it is not the only root of what came to be the plantation system that was practiced.

The system of Indentured servitude certainly had its place, but it required access to a pool of workers with which one was close to and familiar with in some regard. Debtors prisons and workhouses was where many of the indentured servants would come from since these people were anxious to have anyone purchase their debts and get them to work for them. (do not be surprised if you don't see a similar kind of federal debt-work program created in the future)

Indentured servants were sort of a problem for a number reasons. Once they began to see the servitude as a racket, with "employers" pulling some of the tricks you mentioned, as well as charging the the poor servant more in terms of money and time after the contract was already made, many of the indentured servants took to stealing away in the night. Some would run off to other colonies and hide under new names or go native. Because of this the profitability could get dodgy after awhile.

But chattel slavery was practiced in the Caribbean first on the indigenous peoples in the acquisition of whatever meager minerals that could be mined on the those islands and then in pursuit of sugar cane profits, quickly switching to African Chattel slavery as part of the middle passage whereby sugar and rum would be the back end of trips from Africa to the Caribbean (and later America.)

While it is tempting to compare the two experiences I would suggest that there are differences in the roots and intents that prevent a standard evolution between the two practices. Comparisons between the two are problematic as they were occasionally cited by late 19th century post-reconstruction writers to try to distance the crime of slavery.

My opinion is that these two are best left as separate crimes by those wealthy few against the poor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Oh right...
And I would also argue that altruism never actually entered the picture. Both chattel slavery and the indentured servant systems were about profit. To suggest otherwise poisons the idea of altruism accomplishing anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
47. Prior to the Revolution there were as many slaves in New York
as in Virginia.

Crispus Atticks (sp?), hero of the Boston Massacre, was a slave. In Boston.

It was only the development of the plantation system that made slavery viable into the 1800s - had it been economicaly viable in the north, it would have persisted in the north.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
102. no, Crispus Attucks was a free man, not a slave
There were hundreds of thousands of slaves in northern states, even during the civil war. The difference was they weren't black; they were indentured European immigrants. The only difference between chattel slavery in the South and indentured servitude in the North was indentured servants (theoretically) only served as slaves for 10 or 20 years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trthnd4jstc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
90. Fellow Democrat, may I ask?
Did your ancestry have indentured servents? Did your ancestry help kill Native Americans?

For the matter of fairness: My ancestry, traced back on my surname, did not own slaves, & had a solid work ethic, but in the 19th century some of them advocated killing Native Americans, and taking their land. Also, strangely ironic though, I have a full blooded, Cherokee, grandmother, whose ancestry did own slaves. Life is like this.

There was much brutality in the past. Hopefully, we will continue to work on ourselves to not be tyrants.

Finally, the past is behind us. All we can do is deal with the present, and work on the future.

Peace!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasProgresive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
136. You sure the didn't have temp slaves?
Indentured servants.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. To some extent, but that was not always the case
The vast majority of settlers in the North did not own slaves. In my extensive genealogical research, I've found exactly two slaves that were owned by my New England ancestors in the 1600s-one Native American, one African. They were named in wills, along with all other chattel, so if there had been more, they would have been listed. From town histories and records, I know that the people did most of their own work and were expected to do so. And by the time of the Revolution, most slaves were liberated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
49. A great many of them, however, "hired" indentured servants.
Buying their contracts to get free labor for 3 - 7 years. The indentured servant system was much better aligned to the small farm/cottage industry economics of the north, while slavery was better aligned to the plantation system of the south. But indentured servants were hardly accorded better rights than slaves. They could do as they were told, live where they were told, and if they 'absconded' they could be arrested and broght back to the contract holder and punished, just as a slave would be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
37. And Free Land, Untaxed
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
69. wow. study much in history class?
There weren't that many slave owners in the US, per capita.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eilen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
109. My forbears came to shore from Ireland/England
and were immediately conscripted into the Union Army to free slaves. They had never seen Africans before and hadn't even been aware of slavery besides their own miserable starving lease-holding existence in which they were treated as if they were slaves.... They did have to bootstrap it so to speak but it took generations. On my mother's side... well, she didn't come ashore to NY from Europe until 1950. The entire family learned English quickly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. Lots of flawed ideas there
There is a lot of poverty in rural areas, and they tend to be the places where it is hardest to get access to decent health care. In fact, there is usually no public transportation, which leaves impoverished families even more vulnerable. Another flawed idea is that people in poverty "caused" their condition. This is usually not the case--other factors are involved.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. "Another flawed idea is that people in poverty "caused" their condition. "
That's the point of looking at this.. to see how those flawed perceptions are making a mess of policy.

It's affecting so much. The conservatives, since Raygun, have stepped up their blame on poor people. We see it here on DU all the time, too. Many people here believe in the "carrot and stick" method. Pure conservatism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. Another misperception is that all poor people are minorities
this was a big part of the Reagan propaganda with the "welfare queen"--the impression was always of a black woman. If you ask the man on the street, he's likely to tell you that most poor folks are urban blacks, when, in reality, the majority of people getting assistance in this country are white, and there are almost as many rural as there are urban, I believe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Actually in the earliest days of our Country it was rather easy to
Edited on Tue Mar-04-08 08:59 PM by truedelphi
Pull oneself up by the bootstraps.

It was a land of plenty - any fool with a musket could down their dinner.

Likewise any fool with enough common sense to fell some trees and build a cabin and keep hunting while planting crops in the spring, and summer and then setting out to do harvesting in the fall, could make themselves a homestead.

There were no child labor laws, so even semi-orphans like Abe Lincoln could make a go of it.

If you weren't black, or disabled, you probably could have an okay life. There was an unbelievable sense of community with people helping each other.

The situation now is quite different. Assuming you can afford to buy acreage, zoning laws dis-able you from putting up a Teepee or yurt until your house is built. You can hunt but only in season with a license. (And for good reason - if everyone was out there shooting down the Bambis - the deer would all be gone in a matter of weeks. To say nothing of hikers being killed and wounded.)

Even starting a business can require a good deal of capital.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. "If you weren't black, or disabled, you probably could have an okay life"
Exactly. When there was plenty, and almost everyone had access to it, those sorts of ideas were more easily accepted.

Even though they were still flawed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Try Telling My Greandmotrher That
Edited on Tue Mar-04-08 10:03 PM by mntleo2
...a settler in N Dakota, she was routinely raped by her husband from an arranged marriage. She and the daughters were treated like a chattel and considered nothing more than a farm animal. She had 17 children, 9 that lived to adulthood. She died of exhaustion at the age of 50. She worked in the fields along with her husband ...and then went up to the house and did that work, cooking, childcare, washing, mending, tending the fire, growing a garden, while her husband put up his feet. It was *not* easy for her who was helping every step of the way, from building their one room sod house to giving birth to making sure the fire never went out (they did not have matches). My grandmother says she remembers her father pushing her mother into the bedroom and hearing her cry and beg him not to rape her, knowing it only meant another child, more work, and most likely another loss down the road.

What did my grandfather care? When he was done with his work, he came up to the house and demanded dinner and some "comfort" for his hard work without considering she even did anything.

It is not much different today when we do not consider women's work as doing anything that contributes. As a matter of fact women's work has been codified into law as "doing nothing" under The Personal Responsibly And Work Reconciliation Act enacted into law in 1996.

Not so easy for women then, not so simple ever. There is always an angle to make sure whatever she does yields her little or nothing.

And no before anyone jumps on it, this did *not* happen to EVERY SINGLE WOMAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY but for a great number of women this was the case.


My 2 cents
Cat In Seattle
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joshua N Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
59. If you were a healthy, white, free, MALE. Let's not forget that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
60. Change that to: "If you weren't black or disabled or female..."
Excellent point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
26. Lincoln
Lincoln spent his entire life in a desperate determination to escape the grinding and crushing poverty of frontier farming - the drudgery, the hunger, the terrible dangers. He was also dedicated to public works, transportation, education, and other projects to improve the terrible life of small farmers.

Struggles and suffering were the rule for the pioneers and small farmers, not the exception. Farming was a brutal and unforgiving life. "Giants of the Earth" by Ole Rolvaag is a good place to start.

For every gentleman farmer such as Thomas Jefferson, there were thousands not so well off. For every Lincoln, who escaped rural poverty, there were thousands who never did. Lincoln never forgot that, and were he around I think be would object to being used as an example to demonstrate that life was good back then, or that there was significant upward mobility or opportunity for the common people. He would say that the exact opposite was true.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
61. Very important history lesson --thank you! The point remains, however,
that there was land, there were materials for building a home, there was land to forage and plant crops and hunt.

NONE of that exists today.. we poor DEPEND on the powers for those structures and materials.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #61
127. true
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 03:46 PM by Two Americas
The wealthy and powerful few have consolidated their stranglehold control over all resources, and made the "entry price" into the so-called "middle class" higher than ever, and the penalties for losing one's grip much more severe. At the same time, we have developed a very sophisticated and effective "palace guard" of working class people who are given degrees, positions, credentials and perks in exchange for being antagonistic to the poor, working poor, and blue collar people, and who promote the ideas and agenda of the wealthy and powerful few. That group sabotages the left, and most of the battles within the ranks of liberal and Democratic party groups are caused by that.

People are reluctant to look at this - that their personal "success" is entirely dependent upon them toeing the line. Try advocating or working against the interests of the ruling class and watch what happens to your job, your status, your security and your favored position in society. Even thinking ideas that are against the interests of the ruling class can cause a great deal of anxiety and alienation and lead to a diagnosis of your "problem" and recommendations as to how you could be "fixed."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. K & R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Is anyone connecting to the stern, parental aspects of this belief system?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
28. absolutely
Although I see the relationship as more master-slave, or owner-pet, then I do parent-child.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
98. authoritarian+Calvanist thinking
The RW: add in a dose of John Calvin and there we have it. Patriarchal religious, hence authoritarian, justification for abuse of the poor. "It must be their fault- they are not wealthy/of the Elect. Therefore, we will not give a damn. It is their punishment by god. Let them starve."

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. This makes me consider the nature of propaganda..
and myth or meme making.

It's created and devised for the haves
and those who have the time, the slack,
and the will to feel and act superior
to others, to accept real inequalities
without having to look at or face them..
to tolerate poverty, abuses, hates, and
evils without having to see or live them..
while embracing the feelgood fuzzy memes
of freedom, equality, and democracy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. exactly what I was hoping you'd find between the lines....
The conservatives have been so good at this... take mom and apple pie, and make life miserable for so many, in order to enrich corporations.

They've done it so cleverly. What is sad, is that so many poor people buy into it. :(

I hope you will throw out some more ideas....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. K&R! Excellent post! Thank you.
I have never understood why so many people didn't want to do something to alleviate poverty. With these attitudes & beliefs I (unfortunately) can get an idea where they are coming from.
Very sad, bobbolink.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
62. It's important to get down to the basics on some of this, and I'm glad you learned something from it
For forty years now, I've referred to myself as a "radical", a term that is hated equally by the right and the left.

"RADICAL" comes from the word "radix", which means "ROOT". True radicals get to the "root" of the issue.

In this case, part of that root is the disdain and blame affixed to those who aren't able to "make it" in this society. As I show, it has been the case since the early days of this country, before it was a country.

Now that you see this, you can pick out this dynamic in various proposals and political stances.

Thanks for your post!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R
Thank you for this post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kat45 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. The conservative/republican belief: Every man for himself;
I've got mine--fuck you!

I prefer the belief: One for all and all for one. Whatever happened to that sense of community?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. American "Individualism" Took It Away
...I think it is good to be an individual and have rights that extend to every single person, but our society has taken it WAY too far. Now it is "F You I've got mine" without giving respect that there was a time we realized we needed one another and being part of a community meant you were within protection and an infrastructure that benefited everyone. The "rugged individual" who roamed the West with just his horse and blanket was a myth. Even the people going west went with other people. (tapping chin and looking far off) I wonder why that was ... oh yeah because if you got hurt, sick or could not pull your wagon out of the rut, MAYBE you might need someone else besides yourself to help you with that.

It is one of my problems with Conservatism and Libertarianism ...they all think they did everything all by themselves ... they probably gave birth to themselves. They don't need no stinkin' taxes! The Commons that commerce uses made itself ~ and if air did not pay for it, it was "a waste of our taxes." That road they drive on every day? They laid that concrete by themselves. The dam that holds back the water that generates their electricity? They erected that giant monolithic dam ALL BY THEMSELVES! The house they live in? The government did not inspect it to make sure it was safe or even check the land to make sure it was not in a flood plain and if our tax dollars paid for that it too is a waste ~ except of course when it saves THIER house. Besides, they built that house all by themselves, using hammers and nails they mined and then formed, they made all the appliances, they cut the shingles, why they prolly even grew the trees too! The food they ate? They grew it, harvested it, drove it, and put it on the store shelf all by themselves doncha know.

I think we need to be more community oriented and less global IMO. Might also make it harder to pay for needless war when we are pretty busy taking care of Commons and Community instead.


Cat In Seattle
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. Too many of those who "succeed"
in pulling themselves up by their bootstraps suddenly develop very faulty memories about how they "made it."

I got that "See? I did it by MYSELF!" hooey from a friend whose career path I knew well. He was in "stern parent' mode but seemed to forget that HIS 'stern parent' mentor 1) paved a clear path for him 2) gave him tools AND 3) taught him HOW to use them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
89. You're right, and Oprah is a prime example.
Whenever she had problems in her life, there was someone there to bail her out.

Yet, she insists on telling people, "If I can do it, so can you."

BALDERDASH!

Not every one had/has the opportunities and support that she had.

She needs to spend a bit of time being grateful.

As does your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. Ms Thang
showed me her true colours back in the late 80's when I contacted her organization to ask if she would highlight the accomplishments of my jazz 'foremothers,' Dorothy Donegan and Clora Bryant. Doubtless you've never heard of them. They were also beneath anything she had interest in noticing or promoting.

Clora toured the former Soviet Union at the personal invitation of Gorbachev. Auntie D... well suffice to say that upon her death the Smithsonian Institute was at the door looking for artifacts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
99. yeah, I love when they use Horatio Alger as an example
then seem to forget that in those stories, the plucky young scamp hero was generally helped out of poverty by some older rich gentleman.

These people forget that mankind is a social animal and that none of us can succeed alone. Hell, even if you manage to literally start from zero and become well-off through all hard work and no connections or help, you still are using the fruits of society, the labor of millions before you, to sell your great idea/product.

I am all for individualism and personal freedoms and rights, but I also have a healthy respect for (a) the society in which I live that gives me opportunities to succeed or at least try, and more importantly (b) luck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
63. "Whatever happened to that sense of community?" "Rugged Individualism" does NOT
allow for community.

Are we willing to examine and exorcise some of our cherished ideas???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
129. community
Community is a much more significant and important part of the struggles of our ancestors the "rugged individualism" ever was. It is in the interest of the ruling class to exaggerate the rugged individualism and downplay or ignore the role of community.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
131. good cop, bad cop
The right wingers are easy to criticize, as they are the bad cops in the prison that our country has become. Bad cops have been with us throughout history, and they are ascendant now. But we overlook the role of the good cops - those who express sympathy for the victims, say they are on the side of the victims, comfort or patch the victims up here and there, but stubbornly refuse to challenge the prison system itself, or even become more effective apologists for the prison than the bad cops.

Galbraith is talking about the "good cops" and the thinking that makes us good cops in this statement:

"Increasingly in recent times we have come first to identify the remedy that is most agreeable, most convenient, most in accord with major pecuniary or political interest, the one that reflects our available faculty for action; then we move from the remedy so available or desired back to a cause to which that remedy is relevant."

Modern liberalism has become completely compromised by this thinking, and we are now the "good cops," dutifully playing our role to maintain the prison.

As I said, the "bad cops" have always been with us throughout human existence. Whether or not they rule depends upon us - the opposition. If we are merely good cops, then there is no hope of overthrowing the bad cops. We cannot control the bad cops, but we can control what we think, say and do. That is why the battles going on right now within the party, the liberal and progressive movements, and the labor movement are so important. Overthrowing the good cops is the fastest path to overthrowing the bad cops. The way that the injustices and suffering and tyranny are being held in place is not merely the bad cops - the conservatives. They couldn't do it without help. It is the good cops who are holding the system in place, and the argument always is "we are not at all like those Republicans! See what bad cops they are! We are the compassionate good cops!"

Good cops are always one step away from becoming bad cops. Their sympathy for the downtrodden is conditional upon the obedience of the downtrodden people. Poor people and blue collar people know this. That is why they vote Republican - in opposition to the good cop liberal hypocrisy. They prefer, as Lincoln did, those who “make no pretense of loving liberty , where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy."

The full quote:

"As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it, "All men are created equal, except Negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read, "All men are created equal except Negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some other country where they make no pretense of loving liberty - to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, without the base alloy of hypocrisy."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pamela Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-04-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. Excellent post, Bobbie.
K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
110. Thanks! There'll be a quiz.... ^_^
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
22. Kickass post bobbie
And part of the beliefs fueling all this is the big lie called the just world hypothosis,all in the name of feeling in control..which is in this world a delusion made from deperation.None of us controlds our lives all that much however we are desperate to tell ourselves likes that we ARE in control to justify...??.



Just-world Hypothesis in everyday life - Psychology Phenomena

According to the just-world hypothesis, people have a need to believe the world is fair so that they can maintain feelings of control over their own eventual fate. The observation of an innocent person suffering disconfirms this view and threatens one's own fate. Thus, to protect feelings of security people become motivated to respond in ways that will make things seem fair again. If helping is a possibility, most people will choose to intervene. However, if the person cannot be helped, the just-world hypothesis suggests that bystanders will disparage the victim, thus making the world right again - a world in which people get what they deserve (Lipkus, Dalbert, Siegler, 1996, pg: 666-667).



Why do we do this? We deny the evidence or turn the whole situation around to suit ourselves. For example Lerner conducted a study in which almost a thousand people watched a film of a woman being painfully shocked in a psychological learning experiment (All of it was faked). Initially many of the viewers became anxious and upset, some angry towards the experimenter in the film. However shockingly towards the end of the experiment most of the viewers had adopted the `just world` way of thinking. They believed that the victim was ultimately an idiot to be sitting there, and allowing herself to be shocked (Lerner, 1980, pg: 12-23). Not one of the viewers made any sort of effort to protest against the experiments, they felt more comforted believing that "everything is fine".



Another example is a homeless person begging for money. The homeless person gets passed by two people who commented that he deserves what he gets, and that he should get a job. We used this powerful example because it outlined real just-world hypothesis situations in daily life. It demonstrated how people who strongly hold such beliefs are more likely to have negative attitudes toward underprivileged groups and those experiencing injustice. They see no need to help because they believe they have somehow "earned" their fate.



In conclusion the downfall of just world hypothesis is that it can result in blaming victims for disease, rape, abuse, and other tragedies. For instance, throughout the 1980s and much of the 1990s, AIDS was seen as a disease of promiscuity or drug addiction (www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/history/historylab/ShammasH350/BrookeMartin/history.html). Victims were more likely to be blamed than to receive sympathy. This relates again back to the thought that if one feels that they can help someone they will blame them in order to maintain there own security (Vaughan, Hogg: 2002, pg: 71,399-402).


http://www.sociopathic.net/rants/justworld.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
64. Thanks so much for reposting that JUST WORLD HYPOTHESIS, undergroundpanther!
That is such an important concept, and it needs to be repeated over and over and over!

Thanks... your keen mind is such a treasure to DU!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #22
116. "just-world" is another fairy tale
like much of religion.

My motto is far more realistic (and fatalistic):

Life sucks. Then you die.

So you may as well be kind to your fellow humans and other beings, to try to make the world suck less.

(can you tell I deal with clinical depression?)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
23. KICK-ing this thread!
:kick:

THIS is the issue we need to bring to the forefront in so many ways. And policy is just a byproduct of changing the paradigm, the actual heart and mind of those who are living with ease...

Survival is a very real word in our home and reality, and I am 4 years out of an abusive situation, with my own health issues and a child with a birth defect that blinds her and more...
My church has been a lifesaver, (and I still consider myself to think very progressively and pagan-like)...but the people there are more than my family, and they hold us in their hearts, accept us as we are, love us and laugh with us, and help us when we are down, and have saved my Ass on more thasn a couple occasions! We are lucky to be hanging on by a fingernail right now...and I just have to trust that we can make it through another couple months until I can get my health reigned in, and take on some more hours and freelancing. (God, that I can just make it through the day is such an effort at this point...feels like swimming in oatmeal! lol)

BUT - to be able to educate myself here at DU has been very helpful for me. Because under this facade of wit & charm lies a true activist...and the word about poverty is something that I feel very strongly about. Hell, maybe if I just take all my writings and publish, I could get some money (and spend it all before the economy takes a dump!)

Really, though...I recently interviewed with a Journalism student whose final paper is about the plight of those who are struggling in all of this crazyness..she intends to use it as a photojourney with the story read over it...pretty cool.
(it's weird being on the other side of the notepad, I have done stories on inspirational people and stories of sorrow...I even met Pres clinton when I was Editorial asst for our local rag...and now here I am, being interviewed because I am an interesting poverty case? Or am I more of a textbook case? agh!) I told her during our talk that really, unless you ahve been on the skids, you really have no idea about that feeling in your gut...

I love the fact that this girl intends to use this as a conversation piece to get different factions talking. I believe she intends to show stoies in a way that will (hopefully) trigger compassion ...and if we are lucky, the right people will see this, and more wil begin to talk about those who we pretend not to see because they remind us of how easily we could lose what we love or find ourselves on the skids...and other ideas regarding policy, etccoming to the forefront...and the conversation will get bigger and the movement will grow...

and maybe folks will remember more and more that we are meant to help one another, in every way we can.

(please excuse the typos (and perhaps aimless ranting) tonight, tired as hell but wanted to bookmark and rec this thread for the night shift)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. thank you so much
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:40 AM by Two Americas
Wonderful post.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
66. Irony queens under the skin...... ^_^
"(it's weird being on the other side of the notepad, I have done stories on inspirational people and stories of sorrow...I even met Pres clinton when I was Editorial asst for our local rag...and now here I am, being interviewed because I am an interesting poverty case? Or am I more of a textbook case? agh!) "

Yes... indeedy.... Twenty years ago I wrote and published a book of stories of homeless people, and now... here I is... living in my car. Weird what life does...

And not at all funny. :(

I've come to the point where I can't help but think that people like you and I are on a mission... because of our soft hearts, and our sensitivity and our own experiences, we MUST plow new ground, and try to wake up the dead in our society.

agh! indeed!

I need a nap.... :hi:

:hug: for all your efforts, also!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. all in the name of the illusion of control and security..
And part of the beliefs fueling all this is the big lie called the just world hypothosis,all in the name of feeling in control..which is in this world a delusion made from deperation.None of us controlds our lives all that much however we are desperate to tell ourselves likes that we ARE in control to justify...??.



Just-world Hypothesis in everyday life - Psychology Phenomena

According to the just-world hypothesis, people have a need to believe the world is fair so that they can maintain feelings of control over their own eventual fate. The observation of an innocent person suffering disconfirms this view and threatens one's own fate. Thus, to protect feelings of security people become motivated to respond in ways that will make things seem fair again. If helping is a possibility, most people will choose to intervene. However, if the person cannot be helped, the just-world hypothesis suggests that bystanders will disparage the victim, thus making the world right again - a world in which people get what they deserve (Lipkus, Dalbert, Siegler, 1996, pg: 666-667).



Why do we do this? We deny the evidence or turn the whole situation around to suit ourselves. For example Lerner conducted a study in which almost a thousand people watched a film of a woman being painfully shocked in a psychological learning experiment (All of it was faked). Initially many of the viewers became anxious and upset, some angry towards the experimenter in the film. However shockingly towards the end of the experiment most of the viewers had adopted the `just world` way of thinking. They believed that the victim was ultimately an idiot to be sitting there, and allowing herself to be shocked (Lerner, 1980, pg: 12-23). Not one of the viewers made any sort of effort to protest against the experiments, they felt more comforted believing that "everything is fine".



Another example is a homeless person begging for money. The homeless person gets passed by two people who commented that he deserves what he gets, and that he should get a job. We used this powerful example because it outlined real just-world hypothesis situations in daily life. It demonstrated how people who strongly hold such beliefs are more likely to have negative attitudes toward underprivileged groups and those experiencing injustice. They see no need to help because they believe they have somehow "earned" their fate.



In conclusion the downfall of just world hypothesis is that it can result in blaming victims for disease, rape, abuse, and other tragedies. For instance, throughout the 1980s and much of the 1990s, AIDS was seen as a disease of promiscuity or drug addiction (www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/history/historylab/ShammasH350/BrookeMartin/history.html). Victims were more likely to be blamed than to receive sympathy. This relates again back to the thought that if one feels that they can help someone they will blame them in order to maintain there own security (Vaughan, Hogg: 2002, pg: 71,399-402).


http://www.sociopathic.net/rants/justworld.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
68. Very important point... especially the control aspect. 'Murkins are control freaks!
Even their various religions can't seem to break through that HUGE issue of control.

That's a very important point of what I'm raising here, and I appreciate you bringing it to the forefront!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
25. K & R
:kick: & R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:34 AM
Response to Original message
30. k&r
:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kitty Herder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
32. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
teacher gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
33. We are our
brothers' and sisters' keepers.

The scriptures have much to say against the neglect and oppression of the poor. It is wrong.

It seems many of the same elitists who decry social programs to help the less fortunate are not bothered at all by the billions spent on various forms of corporate welfare.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
36. Very telling

What is often not recognized is how deeply these attitudes are embedded in our culture. Even folks inclined differently on the conscious level are affected by it.

I would suggest that the blame might be to a large extent assigned to the doctrines of Calvinism. The idea that wealth implies God's favor and poverty otherwise seems antithetical to the Sermon on the Mount. A Christian nation, indeed!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
71. You raise an important point! *I* believe that it's an example of culture infecting religion.
That foundation of "The Land Of Opportunity" was so strong, and believed in so deeply, that it took over the opposite view of Christianity.

As undergroundpanther so eloquently puts it, it's an issue of denial and CONTROL. We USians are control freaks!

You have it right with the Sermon on the Mount, and I would also add, Matthew 25!

And, yes, these attitudes are deeply inbedded.. you are so very right about that. We see it here at DU all the time, under the guise of "liberalism". Yet, it is far from what liberalism started out to be.... it has been bastardized.

Thanks for the insights!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
juno jones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
39. K&R - I'm amazed by the number of intelligent, often liberal people who buy into this
As an immigrant to this country (from Britain), I sometimes wonder if it's my outsider's perspective that makes it easier to see through this myth, and if I'd been taught it practically from birth, I'd be parroting it along with everyone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
40. Great find bobbolink -
Thank you for bringing it here - K&R!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
42. It is that American myth, isn't it--the anyone can make it myth--that's the problem.
People who don't make it are lazy or whatever, but that's obviously wrong. It's that worship of individualism that ignores real problems and the real causes of poverty.

My dad's grandparents were farmers whose parents had come west on the wagon trains. They were poor. Seriously poor. They had 8 sons and one daughter. Every son ended up serving in WWII. Then they had the GI bill and other supports from the New Deal (that they hated--Dad's parents were Republicans, showing just how far back that voting against one's interests goes), and their kids ended up going into the military, not all but many, or getting help with going to college, and eventually, we made it to the middle class.

Look at what it took to get there, though: the GI bill, government funding of higher education, surviving war in the military, and cheap land to begin with. Those are all government programs to help people get out of poverty. Where are they now? If you join the military, you often stay poor these days. The GI bill is defunct, land isn't cheap anymore (and farming's not a way to get out of poverty, either), and government grants for higher ed are disappearing and getting replaced with loans.

The reality is, we need to support each other through government programs and a strong sense of community. No one can pull themselves up from poverty without help. It's that simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. So True!
I think that poverty in this country is one of the biggest blights with keeping our good name in the world. Our country ignores the problem and because they refuse to recognize or learn from it, they feel free to go out and make war on other nations such as in Iraq. I makes it easier to objectify the poor so they become "collateral damage" as they do with the poor in this country. The poor here are simply "collateral damage" to the business world who exploit the poor. Getting sick, injured or becoming homeless because of low pay and unsafe workplaces, is "not important" when business is making millions off the backs of the poor, the bottom line is more important than the human cost demanded.

Until Americans have more respect for poverty and realize work is work, whether you are a doctor or a waitress, we will continue to denigrate others as if the lesser paid "did not work hard.enough" Work takes a cost from your body, your mind and even your soul. The trick about it is to respect that toll and reward it with enough to make ends meet and do the OTHER work, the care of your loved ones.

My two cents

Cat
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Collateral Damage--that's exactly what they think.
I hate that term, actually. It dehumanizes the victims, the dead. But, that's how so many depersonalize the poor. They're just collateral damage. Very good point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
107. "The poor here are simply "collateral damage" to the business world who exploit the poor."
Now THAT'S profound.

REally, that is exactly what it is.

I think of the businesses.... was it Home Despot?... where it was discovered that they had some structural problem that could fall and kill people. They (the corporate suits) decided it was worth the risk and cheaper to settle lawsuits than to fix the problem.

Same with the tires of a few years back... cheaper to pay 'em off than to save the lives to begin with.

"Collateral damage"........... what SHAME!!!

Who the #*(_!)$$!!! are we?????
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
130. Yours reflect my thoughts except, I would distinguish extreme self-service from,...
,...individualism because I view individualism as simply appreciating each person's unique qualities whereas self service is concerned with ONLY one's own interests.

I agree with your assertion that, overcoming poverty requires a commitment to supporting one another. Selfishness gets in the way of overcoming poverty.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #130
133. How about extreme individualism?
:) Self-service makes me think of cafeterias and gas stations for some reason.

Selfishness is the root of a lot of evil here. It explains overspending (at least in part), crass commercialism, right-wing radio, a Dow Jones that's freakin' high while most economic markers are in the toilet, and Bush. I keep wondering how to combat it, though. What do we do to build up a sense of community again? How do we get people out of their shells and into community groups, political parties, and other forms of communal life?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Speak clearly and concisely about issues we share.
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 07:54 PM by sicksicksick_N_tired
We can never make the same mistake others do and "GIVE UP" on our capacity to reach out to one another.

Maybe, the best characterization is extreme self-centered-ism? :shrug:

If we accept our tendency to be self-centered, we have the capacity of recognizing the fact all things, including humanity, are interdependent.

If we can do that, we will avoid "combat" and reach for the common-ness among us,...in my belief,...albeit, the greatest obstacle will be those who refuse to believe that being human in and of itself is something greater than a reckless profiteering RW talk-show host or a preacher who gains power through advocating a vengeful rather than a loving God. All means of combat emboldens such folks.

I can't claim to have inspired millions through my approach. I can claim to have influenced, without force or imposition, at least a solid three individuals. My relationship with those three have grown close. What more can I ask?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
43. Great post. K&R
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
44. Excellent post, Bobbie.
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 11:49 AM by Kajsa
The message of the " American Dream" is that anyone who works hard
can make a good life for him/herself.

For some that is true.
For many, it's not possible.

The Repubs are quick to jump on their 'everyman for himself' bandwagon and
decry the Democrats for promoting a 'welfare state'.

It's very sad.

Big K&R.

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cutlassmama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #44
54. I've posted on many other boards too. This is EXACTLY the mindset of
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:17 PM by cutlassmama
the Republicans on them. They EXPECT others to pull themselves up by their bootstraps (no matter what) with no consideration of their circumstances. Even the ones who have been poor, yet somehow made it. I know one that was homeless, yet won a large lawsuit and was the most judgmental person on that board towards poor people. How quickly he forgot from wince he came.

EDIT TO ADD: WAY too many times from the Repubs I've heard that people in poverty in this country live better than poor people in other countries. Also, that NO ONE in this country goes to sleep at night without eating something. Abject poverty is still poverty. Somehow in their little minds they have rationalized that poor people here have it so much better than other countries.

One guy even said, and I kid you not, that blacks should thank Americans for taking them as slaves because they have a better life over here than in Africa.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
70. Oh that is disgusting!
What an asinine thing to say!

:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
76. I hope you read undergroundpanther's post -- #22! about denial and CONTROL!
undergroundpanther always gets to the heart of the matter, and I'm really appreciative to have her posts on my thread to illuminate the matter further.

As you state, for many, the "American Dream" has turned into a nightmare, and we are all responsible.

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #76
101. I sure did!


She nailed it!

:hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
45. This William Kristol quote should be front and center. It shows that
the conservatives do not want us to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps.


“Among conservatives there's been too much pseudo-populism, almost too much concern and attention for, quote, 'the people'... After all, we conservatives are on the side of the lords and barons... We...are pulling up the drawbridge against the peasants.” William Kristol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. I've just found my new sig quote
For Peace Takes Courage rather than here, since I post more there than I do here. You're right, it deserves to be widely seen. I mean, we all knew it anyway, but for Kristol to actually come out and admit it...Jeezus!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
57. His dad, if you remember, is the father of neo conservatism.
Also, look for my thread about the recessions. It has a handy chart.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. He's well known in my hometown of Bristol, England
It's a popular joke there that we'd better hope there's no-one in the Bush Administration who's prone to Spoonerisms, otherwise any mention of Bill Kristol's name could turn out very badly for us.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Bristol
Bristol is a town, Kristol is an asshole.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
72. Wow.. that is frightening... that they have so much power now that they can say it that upfront!
This ought to scare EVERYONE!!

Thank you for posting that, although now I will have nightmares..

What a heartless jerk!

I hope he ends up begging for a meal!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Here's another doozy by fellow neo con Richard Perle
If we just let our vision of the world go forth, and we embrace it entirely and we don't try to piece together clever diplomacy, but just wage a total war ... our children will sing great songs about us years from now,'” (December 12, 2002) Richard Perle
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Yes, that reveals a very sick mind.
Right now I'm collecting good quotations about poverty, and it's not so easy.

There are many more about peace and war, and relatively few about poverty.

That, in itself, is very telling.

:(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. See if any can be found here:
http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/



No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.
Charles Dickens
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another."
Charles Dickens

That is a beautiful quotation, and applies to so many here in this thread!

I put it in the subject line, as more are likely to read it there.

Thank you so much... that quote is definitely a keeper!

:applause:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I found some more
Poverty is the schoolmaster of character.
Antiphanes

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC)

Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is in an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob, and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe.
Frederick Douglass (1817 - 1895), Speech, April 1886

You are going to let the fear of poverty govern your life and your reward will be that you will eat, but you will not live.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

It is not easy for men to rise whose qualities are thwarted by poverty.
Juvenal (55 AD - 127 AD), Satires

It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness; poverty and wealth have both failed.
Kin Hubbard (1868 - 1930)

Wealth is the parent of luxury and indolence, and poverty of meanness and viciousness, and both of discontent.
Plato (427 BC - 347 BC), The Republic
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Thanks! Some about crime make me very uncomfortable.
That's the conservative view... poor people are criminals.

Because I'm homeless, people assume I'm going to steal their silverware.

:mad:

Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. I put them in to just to give some perspective. I've been homeless.
It is both horrible and liberating, depending on how the day went.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
73. What a magnificent quote. It shows their thinking exactly!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. It's a quote you'd hear from some feudal prince, not from a democrat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
46. The problem I see with the way conservatives see everything is a belief in conservative ideology.
It's practically a religion. Their answer to every problem is to sprinkle a little conservative ideology on it and everything will be ok. The problem with that is that it has never worked. Conservatives are never made to look at the results of their efforts and even if they did it wouldn't matter to them that there are no real positive results such as a eliminating of poverty. Their aim isn't to eliminate poverty it is to eliminate the need to care about poverty. They believe in the individual's right to better himself at the expense of others.

On the other hand the conservatives do have one thing going for them that the left doesn't and that is the belief that the individual is in large part responsible for his life or what happens to him. The left has a belief that individuals are victims with not choice in the matter. There is some truth to both ideas.

I have been thinking of this a lot lately. I'm getting near retirement age. I don't have a savings and I just started work for the only employer I've had that has a retirement plan. I'm not wealthy and will never be and I look back and see that a lot of that is because of choices I've made. I was born into a poor family and my parents never encouraged me to be wealthy. They saw my life as a repeat of theirs. They didn't know any better. There were kids my age that I am sure were born to parents that encouraged them to become wealthy. Just like me they encouraged their kids to be like them only they were wealthy and we weren't.

In order for me to be better off than my folks I had to turn my back on their advice and I did.

Now there are circumstances out of my control that influenced my life economically but to a large extent I feel we make decisions that take us in the directions we go. Of course it is not a level playing field and of course all our lives take different turns and have different things happening. I am lucky that I wasn't a black kid growing up in the 50's. Those kids had it much harder than I did but still if they are successes today it's because of choices they made given the circumstances. That's why I was never against affirmative action programs or integration.

There just is a lot of grey area in this discussion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #46
124. I hate to break this to you, but everyone does that... liberals, too.
I was talking about the conservatives in this post.. but liberals form their ideology and build their solutions around that.

But... that's another post.

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
50. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, bobbolink.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
53. "great creativity in making excuses."... K&R
and I am sick of them!! We all should be!! These excuses do absolutely nothing to help, its too easy for think tanks to speak about what causes poverty (when they have no idea) without actually coming up with solutions. They try to simplify a very complicated issue. Everyone living in poverty or homeless has their own personal story, its not just one simple answer. And the type of thinking on both the left and the right shows just how out of touch they are with this problem. Just look at this quote by Daniel Patrick Moynihan from 43 years ago "And it is richly deserved", and you can see that we haven't come any closer to understanding the causes of poverty, let alone solutions. I know from experience that there is no single cause for falling into poverty, I rarely if ever hear anything about my own situation, I'm not complaining , but that is the way it is. And since you mention The Heritage Foundation, I included a post I made about THEIR description of poverty.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Patrick Moynihan:
"There is one unmistakable lesson in American history: A community that allows a large number of young men to grow up in broken families, dominated by women, never acquiring any stable relationship to male authority, never acquiring any set of rational expectations about the future — that community asks for and gets chaos... And it is richly deserved." — "Family and Nation", 1965
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: February 18, 2008
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

<<snip>>

L. B. J. declared his “War on Poverty” 44 years ago. Contrary to cynical legend, there actually was a large reduction in poverty over the next few years, especially among children, who saw their poverty rate fall from 23 percent in 1963 to 14 percent in 1969.

But progress stalled thereafter: American politics shifted to the right, attention shifted from the suffering of the poor to the alleged abuses of welfare queens driving Cadillacs, and the fight against poverty was largely abandoned.

<<snip>>

Living in or near poverty has always been a form of exile, of being cut off from the larger society. But the distance between the poor and the rest of us is much greater than it was 40 years ago, because most American incomes have risen in real terms while the official poverty line has not. To be poor in America today, even more than in the past, is to be an outcast in your own country. And that, the neuroscientists tell us, is what poisons a child’s brain.

America’s failure to make progress in reducing poverty, especially among children, should provoke a lot of soul-searching. Unfortunately, what it often seems to provoke instead is great creativity in making excuses.

<<snip>>

Mainly, however, excuses for poverty involve the assertion that the United States is a land of opportunity, a place where people can start out poor, work hard and become rich.

<<snip>>

Poverty rates are much lower in most European countries than in the United States, mainly because of government programs that help the poor and unlucky.

<<snip>>

But ultimately, let’s hope that the nation turns back to the task it abandoned — that of ending the poverty that still poisons so many American lives.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/?az=archives&j=1669&page=1
The Heritage Foundation
January 5, 2004
Understanding Poverty in America
by Robert E. Rector and Kirk A. Johnson, Ph.D.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/b...

<<snip>>

The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

-Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census -
Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

-Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

-Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.

-The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

-Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

-Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

-Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

-Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

As a group, America's poor are far from being chronically undernourished. The average consumption of protein, vitamins, and minerals is virtually the same for poor and middle-class children and, in most cases, is well above recommended norms. Poor children actually consume more meat than do higher-income children and have average protein intakes 100 percent above recommended levels. Most poor children today are, in fact, supernourished and grow up to be, on average, one inch taller and 10 pounds heavier that the GIs who stormed the beaches of Normandy in World War II.

<<snip>>

Overall, the typical American defined as poor by the government has a car, air conditioning, a refrigerator, a stove, a clothes washer and dryer, and a microwave. He has two color televisions, cable or satellite TV reception, a VCR or DVD player, and a stereo. He is able to obtain medical care. His home is in good repair and is not overcrowded. By his own report, his family is not hungry and he had sufficient funds in the past year to meet his family's essential needs. While this individual's life is not opulent, it is equally far from the popular images of dire poverty conveyed by the press, liberal activists, and politicians.

<<snip>>

The best news is that remaining poverty can readily be reduced further, particularly among children. There are two main reasons that American children are poor: Their parents don't work much, and fathers are absent from the home.

<<snip>>

Father absence is another major cause of child poverty. Nearly two-thirds of poor children reside in single-parent homes; each year, an additional 1.3 million children are born out of wedlock. If poor mothers married the fathers of their children, almost three-quarters would immediately be lifted out of poverty.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #53
119. Great post.

Heritage Foundation :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joshua N Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
56. Please read my paper on this topic if you have the time. I also wrote a paper about the
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 02:23 PM by Joshua N
Christian Right's complicity to this improper ideology that I would be happy to post. Oh, and *warning* it is a religious paper, although I do feel that twisted religion is still at the heart of this matter.

**********************************************************
PAPER/PAPER/PAPER/PAPER
**********************************************************
Joshua N
Jesus Against Christianity – Lawson
Midterm Paper
March 13, 2007

Jesus’ View on Poverty: a Critique of U.S. Civic Republicanism and Jesus’ Alternative.

American public policy concerning poverty has changed in many ways over time, but one ideal which has affected it remains consistent: the independence and individuality of civic republicanism. This tradition, as expressed in twentieth and twenty first century U.S. poverty policy, takes an unrealistic view of the causes of poverty. Rather than acknowledge the various factors that bring about the social condition of poverty, civic republicanism focuses on individual choice; and, since the problem is considered mainly one of individual choice, the proposed solutions fail to account for the multiple sources of poverty. This narrow focus of poverty stands in contrast to Jesus’ view. Jesus recognized the many causes of poverty and worked to provide solutions that acknowledged these. Although he challenged individuals both rich and poor, to Jesus the main cause of poverty the way in which the rich manipulated the poor. If the United States wants to better alleviate poverty, it must abandon the civic republicanism that puts primary responsibility for poverty on the poor individual and instead take up a poverty policy that limits the exploitative practices of the rich.
History of Civic Republicanism
American public policy on poverty has its roots in English ideas and thought concerning the poor, dependent classes. Although there existed a small middle class of merchants and trade smiths, seventeenth and eighteenth century England separated its classes between the wealthy “gentry” (landowners and nobility) and the poor “commoners” (servants, slaves, and tenant farmers). Commoners were considered mentally and even morally inferior to gentlemen, whose intelligence and superior morals placed them in a position of wealth and independence. Land was the primary source of wealth at the time, and most of it was owned by gentlemen. Commoners worked the land to make a living, and therefore were dependent upon the gentlemen for existence. Because of this, over time manual labor, dependency, low intelligence and low moral standards became interconnected characteristics attributed to the poor.
In America, however, manual labor was not associated with the poor. Land was no longer a commodity available only to the rich elite. “Anyone” – that is, any free, white male – had fairly easy access to land ownership. Those who in England would have been landless, dependent workers for the gentry now had an opportunity at independence and prosperity through manual labor on personal property. Hard work, then, came to be associated with self support and economic independence. Anyone who was willing to work hard could find success and independence (again, this, to an extent, is true if “anyone” referred to free, white males). For example, in the mid eighteenth century two-thirds of free, white male workers owned their own property. In addition, the one-third who did not own land was mainly comprised of recent immigrants and young men who had not yet established themselves. When this statistic is compared with the same statistic in England, where one-third of free white males owned land and two-thirds did not, it can be seen why manual labor on personal property became a virtue among free, white male Protestants in America, especially when considering the increase in personal wealth that came from land ownership.
Over time, “the independence of property ownership was equated with virtue, propertyless dependency symbolized vice.” This negative view of propertyless dependency extended not just to free, white males who were propertyless and dependent, but also to groups like African slaves, indentured servants, and free, white women and children whose propertyless and dependence were primarily due to social structure. In any case, it was assumed that they “were responsible for their condition, that they could fairly easily obtain employment and eventually gain land and economic independence if they were willing to discipline themselves and work.” Any person or group who remained consistently dependent was considered lazy, morally inferior, and intellectually deficient. For instance, African Americans were characterized as “an inferior and naturally dependent race whose freedom in a republican nation would be a source of corruption;” free, white males who were too poor to own property were not considered worthy of full citizenship or the right to vote; and, no woman regardless of land ownership status could vote.
If the problem of poverty was dependence, the answer for civic republicanism was not public charity. In fact, “reformers saw the growth of public relief as a cause of increased dependency.” Instead, the proposed solution propagated by civic and agrarian republicanism was opportunity for independent property ownership. There is evidence of this ethical tradition during the presidencies of Adams, Jefferson, Jackson, and Lincoln, among others. For instance, the Harrison Land Act of 1800 allowed individuals to buy tracts of land in the Ohio territory with credit, and the Land Act of 1804 lowered the minimum requirement of purchased land from 320 acres to 160 acres, thereby making land purchases more affordable. Also, the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 greatly increased the amount of land owned by the United States, and the Land Act of 1820 lowered the land purchase requirements from 160 acres to 80 and lowered the price per acre. The Homestead Act signed by Lincoln in 1862 gave land to settlers for free as long as they were willing and able to build a house on the land and live there for at least five years. According to the line of thinking associated with civic and agrarian republicanism, these acts would be able to effectively reduce the number of poor. With hard work, anyone who is poor could change their situation from idleness and poverty to economic independence through property ownership.
Yet, there are a number of reasons why this approach was not as effective as thought. First, these acts still did not guarantee equal access to land for the poor. Even cheap land was not affordable to the low wage laborer and the unemployed poor, and land that could be bought with credit still needed someone with capital and a specific skill set to own it. Most people did not have the training and education to build houses or farm land, and this is especially true for the poor who, even with training, would not have the money to purchase capital. Second, even those who did have the training and could somehow provide the capital were not guaranteed economic independence. Illness, injury, and drought all contributed towards many landowners being forced to sell their property to repay their debt, and many had no choice but to become tenant farmers. Third, even those who could keep their land faced the danger of falling into poverty due to lowered prices based on surplus crop production and international trade tariffs. None of these important factors have anything to do with a person’s determination, will, morals, character, or personal choice – the factors which most greatly influence poverty according to the civic republican tradition.
Over time, the civic republican ethical tradition came to reflect three basic tenets: 1) only hard work is missing from success, 2) Assisting the poor makes them lazy and dependent, and 3) if someone is poor, it is because she is lazy and dependent and not a hard worker, and the best solution is to help her even less. Although there have always existed voices of dissent, civic republicanism has loomed large in the ethos and in the public policy of America. The Great Depression of the late 1920’s and the 1930’s opened the eyes of America to the many factors of poverty. With 24.9 percent of the nation unemployed, Americans could no longer accept the idea that the main cause of poverty was personal choice. Many social programs implemented during the Roosevelt administration, termed the “New Deal”, attacked the various factors of poverty. The government created programs that protected labor unions’ right to organize, created jobs for the unemployed, regulated the price of crops to avoid price depression, provided tax money for natural disaster relief, built public housing, and provided unemployment insurance for the unemployed and social security for the elderly and disabled.
However, it would not take long before the civic republican ethos reemerged. By the 1970’s, growing skepticism of social programs that aided the poor resulted in political attacks, as Americans wondered why the current social programs weren’t eliminating poverty. By the 1980’s, rather than trying to improve upon existing social programs such as Medicare (health care for the elderly, created in 1965), Food Stamps (1964), Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC or “Welfare”, 1935), and Medicaid (healthcare for the poor, 1965), Ronald Reagan slashed funding to all of these programs and completely eliminated the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act (CETA) which provided skill training for the working and unemployed poor. Reagan cut funding for public housing in half within his first year in office. This cut in funding increased homelessness across America. Yet, Reagan views on homelessness are expressed by his comment stating that “the homeless… are homeless, you might say, by choice.”
In 1996, Bill Clinton signed into law the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act (PRWORA). Keeping in line with the civic republicanism ideals of hard work and responsibility and holding firm to the belief that aid caused dependency, the PRWORA ended six decades of a minimum guaranteed aid to those in poverty (AFDC/Welfare), and replaced it with conditional aid based on eligibility criteria that is determined by each state. The only consistency in criteria is that welfare aid must end after two years, and lifetime assistance can not exceed five years. An interesting quote from John Iceland discusses the American response to PRWORA, and the economic outcome of the bill’s passing.
“… around a third of families reported problems providing enough food, paying utility bills, and paying rent. A few studies have found significant reliance on family and friends as a means of additional support.
Some of the positive aspects of PRWORA are that it contained a number of features with wide public support – it emphasized work over welfare and in doing so raised employment rates among single mothers, placed the obligation of child support on both parents, supported state-level innovation, emphasized reducing teen pregnancy, and stressed individual responsibility. A negative feature is that it focused more on reducing dependency than on reducing poverty. Work obtained by former (and potential) recipients often does not pay very well. Some hold that the bill placed too little emphasis on human capital development and support services, that it leaves many very needy families without income support…..” (emphasis added)
While welfare cases were greatly reduced from 5 million in 1994 to 2.2 million in 2000, those who left the welfare program were still extremely poor. Likewise, though the employment rate of single parents rose, their average annual income remained below the poverty line.
Despite the popularity of the belief that government aid keeps the poor in poverty and that the solution is for the poor to work harder, facts do not support this view. There are many other factors that contribute to the state of poverty in America. Civic republicanism does not adequately take these into account, and America must adopt a view that recognizes and takes seriously all the factors of poverty.
Reasons for Poverty besides Personal Choice
Although individual choice, morals, and work ethic can play a role in poverty, they are neither the only nor the most important factors contributing to it. Economic factors such as industrialization, deindustrialization, and globalization have contributed to poverty in America. Likewise, social factors such as racism against minorities and discrimination against women have also played a great role in creating poverty.
When industrialization took hold in the late 1800’s, farming became more mechanized and rural workers were left unemployed. This increased the number of poor in America. Also, in the late 1900’s up to the present, deindustrialization has contributed to poverty in America.. Iceland notes:
“… the shift of employment in the economy from manufacturing to services resulted in the destruction of a disproportionate number of higher-wage jobs, especially those whose primary requirement is manual skill. In their place, the service and retail trade sectors of the economy generated millions of new jobs, but these tend to be associated with a polarized earnings distribution and poverty.”
In other words, as higher paying manufacturing jobs were eliminated from the market, they were replaced with lower paying jobs retail and service jobs. This is not the fault of the workers; rather, this is the result of globalization. In order to maximize profit, corporations have sent many manufacturing jobs overseas where materials and labor are cheaper. Americans who filled manufacturing jobs lost them not because of laziness or poor personal decisions but because of corporate greed. These workers only options became lower paying retail jobs and underemployment or downright unemployment. Either way, the result is lower wages and possibly poverty.
According to a study in 1997, 48 percent of Americans who lived in poverty were people in families where at least one person worked full-time; 29 percent were people in families with at least one part-time worker; and, lastly, only 24 percent were people in nonworking families. As is evidenced by these statistics, hard work does not guarantee financial independence or economic security. Also, many of those who work only part time and many of those who do not work in any capacity do not wish to be partially or unemployed. Many would like to work full time jobs, but the opportunity is not available. Of all the poor in America, only 24 percent do not work, and many of these wish they had work. The percentage of those who do not work because of laziness or a sense of entitlement to aid and dependency is extremely small. In other words, Reagan’s “welfare queens” do not exist.
Up until the second half of the twentieth century, racial discrimination had been officially instituted into American public policy for centuries. Before 1865, most African Americans were slaves who worked without receiving pay and with no hope of personal freedom, let alone a decent wage. After the abolition of slavery, Jim Crow law refused southern black people the opportunity to work almost any other job besides sharecropping. There was virtually no opportunity for social mobility. This circumstance would not change for another hundred years, when the American civil rights movement of the 1960’s instigated change in overt laws and systems which limited the economic opportunities of racial and ethnic minorities. Although overtly racially oppressive systems have been fought with some success, covert racism is still prevalent in America. Job discrimination based on race is still widespread
There are many consequences of the discrimination against women which result in wage inequality and poverty. Iceland notes that,
“First, discrimination occurs when men are paid more than women for the same work. Second, discrimination contributes to occupational sex segregation – where men and women are highly concentrated in different types of jobs. The result is that women’s work is typically accorded both lower status and lower earnings than occupations with high concentrations of men.
Inequality in the labor market may also occur due to bias or discrimination prior to a person’s entrance into the labor market… For example, girls are more typically socialized into family-oriented roles, while boys… are encouraged to enter careers that emphasize making money… Women may be more likely to reenter after… pregnancy and raising young children, and that therefore do not offer as much upward mobility.”
Women in America make only 68 cents to the dollar of men’s salaries. This gross inequity that causes many women to live in poverty is not the fault of women. Laziness and poor decision making do not account for such a discrepancy in earned income.
Also, the above mentioned social and economic factors of poverty do not take into account the harmful effects of an unexpected illness, being disabled or handicapped, experiencing a natural disaster, the consequences of being elderly, having a mental illness, or being mentally retarded. None of these factors have any thing to do with personal choice, yet they all can play a major part in a person’s income level. A person of similar skill and educational level who is handicapped or disabled will be less likely to get a job than someone who is not handicapped. The elderly who can no longer work are on fixed incomes that are often poverty level. Those who experience natural disasters, especially those who are already poor, are hurt by the material loss and the ensuing financial burden. The mentally ill can become poor due to social “stigma, low morale, loss of self-esteem, medication side effects….” The mentally retarded can do some work, but most of it is lower skilled and therefore low paying.
There are social programs that address almost all of these detrimental factors of poverty; however, the funding for most of these programs has been drastically cut over the past 25 years. There exists in the American consciousness a certain callousness towards the poor that arises from a justification rooted in civic republicanism. Civic republicanism, with its emphasis on independence, free choice, hard work, and self-determination, allows most Americans to feel comfortable in turning the other way while their fellow Americans can not meet their basic needs. America can learn from Jesus, who not only recognized that poverty was in part due to the exploitation of the poor by the rich, but also protested against it.
Economic Exploitation In America
More than anything, the greatest contributing factor to economic inequality in America is the economic exploitation by the rich, especially wealthy and powerful business corporations. John Iceland notes, “Income inequality results from economic systems that foster the accumulation of money and assets in one segment of society, often at the expense of another….” Wealthy corporations oppress the poor by fighting to keep wages low in order to maximize profit.
The wealthy and their corporations have great influence in Washington, and they use it to their advantage. In order to become an elected official in America, a candidate needs large amounts of money. Most of this money is provided by large corporations. When a candidate is elected, he or she in a sense owes the corporations who financially contributed to their campaign. These corporations then have access to government power that can be used in their favor. As an example, Roger E Tamraz admitted that he donated $300,000 dollars to candidates but was not registered to vote. When asked why he did not vote, he replied that people with money have more access to Congress than voters.
Because of their influence, corporations and the wealthy individuals behind them are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer. A large part of this is due to the government’s help in giving corporations an advantage. For instance, in 1962, 21% of federal taxes were paid by corporation and 77% was paid by individuals. In 2003, 7% of taxes were paid by corporations compared to 90% paid by individuals. In fact, in 2004 82 of the 275 largest corporations in America reported that they did not pay any federal income taxes, and this while the federal tax code requires corporations to pay 35 percent of their profits in tax. With President Bush’s tax cuts between 2001-2003, 28.3 percent of the money went to the top 1 percent of the wealthy, 43 percent went to the top 5 percent wealthy, and 69 percent went to the top 20 percent wealthy. This makes sense when, of the 100 wealthiest economies in the world, only 47 are nations and 53 are business. These are only a small number of available statistics which indicate that the U.S. government is being bought by the wealthy. The top 10 percent who own 70 percent of the nation’s wealth and 84 percent of the nation’s stock and mutual funds have a grip on the nation’s wealth and will not let it go.
All the while those who hold to the ideology of civic republicanism allow this injustice to exist. America needs to realize the many factors of poverty, most importantly the exploitation of the rich to keep the nations wealth out of the hands of the worker and the less fortunate. America needs the example of Jesus, who many of its nation’s citizens claim to follow. Jesus recognized that poverty had more to do with personal responsibility. Jesus stood up against the unjust practices of the rich in his time, and if America wants to see poverty eliminated it must do the same.
Jesus and Poverty
According to Howard Thurman, Jesus’ ministry was meant to benefit the poor and oppressed. He recognized that poverty was not just the result of poor personal choice, but knew that poverty also came about as the result of oppression.
Poverty in 1st Century Palestine
The concept of a middle class was unfamiliar to first century Palestine. One was either considerably wealthy or considerably poor. The rich, upper class was less than five percent of Israel’s population. It consisted of tax collectors and other Roman officials, priests, and wealthy landowners. This upper crust, as we will discuss, controlled the flow of wealth in various ways.
As is the case in America today, in first century Palestine most of the poor were working poor. The poor worked the land to support their families and maintain a living. However, most of what was grown was taken by the Romans as tax. Most poor people barely had enough land to provide enough food for their families without the tax. With the tax to Rome, as well as the tithe to the Temple, poor farmers were forced to work the land of wealthy landowners for wages to make ends meet. Sadly, these were the lucky ones. Many would not produce enough crops to pay all of the Roman tax, and as a result the Romans would seize the farmers’ land. With no land to provide an income, many would resort to begging. Some could work as sharecroppers on other people’s land, but many of these ended up in debt and therefore either in debtor’s prison or enslaved.
As can be seen by these examples, the have-nots were dominated by the haves in Jesus’ day. Roman authorities and priestly officials took advantage of the poor by prospering off of the poor’s hard labor. Jesus’ combats this mistreatment of the poor by condemning the selfish action of the rich and encouraging those who have to share with the needy. This is apparent in Jesus’ support of the practice of Jubilee as well as his parables and sayings which challenged the status quo of the rich.
Jesus’ Response to the Rich
The Gospel of Luke portrays the beginning of Jesus’ ministry with this quote: “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor… and… to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” Jesus felt called to preach good news to the poor. In doing so, he also spoke out against the injustices of the rich.
Lazarus and the Rich Man
One example of this is found in Jesus’ parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-23). In the story, Lazarus is a poor person who begs for help from the rich man. The rich man never helps Lazarus, but instead enjoys the abundance of his wealth without any thought of obligation to Lazarus. Eventually, they both died and, in the afterlife, Lazarus spent his days reclining in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man suffered in eternal fire. The rich man was punished because he kept his wealth to himself and neglected to help Lazarus. He may have never personally oppressed Lazarus, but he left the underprivileged Lazarus to fend for himself rather than acknowledging Lazarus’ legitimate need for help. This parable shows Jesus’ attitude toward the callousness of the wealthy toward the plight of the poor. Jesus was willing to expose even apathy for the poor as the evil that it was.
The Unjust Steward
Another example of Jesus’ challenge to the rich comes in his parable of the shrewd steward (Luke 16:1-9). The steward was in charge of the estate of what was probably an absentee landowner. Although it was against the law to charge interest on loans, the steward loaned the landowner’s money while charging hidden interest that he was collecting for himself. There was a commonly used technicality that allowed for interest to be applied to loans that were not of immediate necessity. Since most loans were not considered this, interest was able to be applied that usually did not show up in the written contract. This allowed the steward to demand disproportionate amounts of interest that he could pocket for himself without the landowner’s knowledge.
Because of his greed, the steward has loaned out much of the landowner’s estate and has charged so much interest that the people can not pay the money (often, in the form of goods) back. The estate is out of money, and the landowner is planning to fire the steward. In the face of danger, the steward acts wisely. He could not forgive the entire debt that was owed to the estate, but he could forgive the extremely high amount of interest he charged in order to pocket for his own benefit. The steward could have had those who did not make their interest payments thrown into debtors’ prison. Instead, the steward acts righteously (and shrewdly) by forgiving the unjust amount of interest. Free from the unjust interest, the borrowers now can pay back what they owe.
In this parable, the landowner represents God who is taking to task the wealthy for their unfair practices. The steward responds righteously, and as a result is commended by the landowner. The landowner is pleased, the steward can keep his job, and the borrowers are treated fairly. Everything worked out when the steward acted righteously. Jesus uses the example of the steward to show both how things can work when one acts justly and also to criticize those who serve greed over God. Jesus goes on to say in v. 13, “No slave can serve two masters; for a slave will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You can not serve God and wealth.” The wealthy in Jesus’ day were serving their greed rather than serving God who intended for the wealthy to show fairness and even generosity to the poor. Greed for wealth enslaved the rich. Rather than use their advantage to help the poor, the wealthy used their advantage to exploit them by charging unfair amounts of interest. The parable of the unjust steward exposes the unjust practices of the rich and points out that one major factor for poverty is the exploitation of the poor by the rich.
Parable of the “Rich Fool”
Another example of Jesus’ protest against the rich comes in the form of a parable (Luke 12:13-21). A wealthy landowner has collected the fruit of his harvest for the season. The yield is so plentiful that his storehouses can not hold the amount of grain he has collected. He decides to tear down his old storehouses and build larger ones that can support his surplus grain. His hope is to use his new wealth to sit back and live comfortably.
It does not seem like there is any point where the “rich fool” considers using his time, energy, or thought towards helping the less fortunate. It seems not to cross his mind that his surplus grain could be used to feed those who are destitute. Instead, his thoughts are centered on serving himself, as is evidenced by 11 self-references in a span of four verses. His first thought is to tear down his smaller storehouses and build larger ones (which, by the way, would require more work and planning than simply building and additional storehouse). After building the new storehouses, he plans to store his surplus grain and “relax, eat, drink, and be merry.” Yet, this is not the plan that God has for him. God tells him that, despite all his planning, the wealthy landowner was going to die that very night. The parable ends with this statement: “So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God” (v. 21).
It is interesting to note that Jesus seems to equate being rich toward God with being generous to the poor. This implication strikes at the selfish actions of the rich who, far from being generous to the poor, exploited and used the poor to acquire their wealth. With this parable, Jesus condemns the greed of the wealthy and challenges them to change their practices of mistreatment to practices of generosity.
Jesus and Poverty: Conclusion
Jesus understood the role of the rich in making poor people poor, and he was not afraid to speak out against it. He challenged the rich even when surround by the threat of personal danger. Yet, Jesus did not stop speaking about the inequality of the wealth disparity in his nation. In fact, Jesus’ protest against the Roman and priestly domination system likely cost him his life. To a historically and presently majority Christian nation like America, Jesus is a wonderful model for how to address and deal with factors of poverty outside the personal responsibility of the poor.
Conclusion: Jesus, an Example for America
Although many other factors to poverty have been identified by scholars and recognized by the general public, it is up to America, political leaders and common citizens alike, to press for change that helps the poor. Americans can no longer accept civic republican ideology that feels comfortable in leaving the poor to their own devices. Cuts in social programs like welfare, Medicare, and Medicaid have hurt the poor, and innovations like Welfare to Work have spurred the cycle of poverty by taking the supervision of single parents out of the home. The actions stem from the civic republican ideas, not in the beliefs of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus understood that some roots of poverty came from the domination of the poor by the wealthy. If America wants to eradicate poverty, it must abandon civic republican ideology and replace it with the perspective and the attitude of Jesus.


Works Cited

Chamberlin, J. Gordon. Upon Whom We Depend: The American Poverty
System. Peter Lang Publishing, New York. 1999.
Collins, Chuck and Yeskel, Felice. Economic Apartheid in America: a Primer on Economic
Inequality and Insecurity. New Press, New York. 2005.
Hendricks, Obery M. The Politics of Jesus. Doubleday, New York. 2006.
Iceland, John. Poverty in America: a Handbook – Second Edition. University of
California Press, Berkeley. 2006.
Kraybill, Donald B.. The Upside-Down Kingdom. Herald Press, Scottdale, PA.
1989.
Nelson –Pallmeyer, Jack. Jesus Against Christianity: Reclaiming the Missing
Jesus. Trinity Press International, Harrisburg, PA. 2001.
Thurman, Howard. Jesus and the Disinherited. Beacon Press, Boston, 1949.
Zundel, Alan F.. Declarations of Dependency: The Civic Republican Tradition in
U.S.Poverty Policy. State University of New York Press, Albany. 2000.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mntleo2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #56
118. Good Read Joshua!
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 10:15 AM by mntleo2
Here is my historical take from what I learned as an activist beginning in the 1980's:

Many progressive Christians have been saying what you are trying to point out for years as well but were drowned out by wingnuts who prefer to try to frame their greed cherry picking scripture while ignoring outright how Jesus drove out the money changers from the temple.

Now in those mega-churches, they have pretty much the same thing with their Starbucks kiosks and shopping malls in their entryways beckoning worshipers to buy, buy, buy ~ and save enough to put in that collection plate they pass around again and again, so the pastor has enough money to buy that corporate jet and pay for his mansion.

I became alarmed at the charismatic movement when it tried to tear apart our church. At the time we did not have a clue as to the extent of it and only thought we were one of the few agonizing over it. I remember commenting to one member who was on our council about it all and her response. I said, "What is the big problem with the charismatics? If we do not want to speak in tongues so be it. I have no objections to their doing that if that is the way they want to worship God ..." She said,"I have no problem with it either Cat, But what do you do if those people say you are a sinner if you do not do it their way?"

Now we know it was an organized effort to break up mainline churches and drive people to these "shopping malls" to fleece their pockets and brainwash them with fascist agendas veiled in religious terms.

At that time our church was embroiled in the Liberation Theology movement, which was growing in South America that the Reagan tried to crush. They did this by dropping nuns from airplanes, burning and killing entire villages, murdering priests, and doing what they could to destroy anyone they even thought was affiliated with it. It WAS dangerous to a fascist because it was about building true community in a place where, for centuries it had systems, blessed by the Church and run by the elite where a few owned it all and kept the peasant down.

Liberation Theology says in essence: "I have a horse, you have a plow, let's get together and help each other farm ..." and "Let's build communities that no longer rely on the rich man to give us land and then force us to give all our yield, lets form communities where each person uses their skills for the betterment of all ..." It was why we (the U.S.) murdered Archbishop Romero because he was taken with Liberation Theology and he stood up to the Vatican and the U.S. and tried to make his churches a "sanctuary" where people in the area could flee to safety when their villages were being burned.

It worked to a degree, though now mainline churches are fighting back and it is growing.

The link I provided is from Street Prophets, affiliated with Daily Kos but there are other sources as well who will tell the story of Reagan-bred wingnuts who tried to destroy the mainline church and impose a religion veiled in fascism that is hurting us today.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/3/6/17453/03069/173/192058%20link:http://streetprophets.com/storyonly/2006/5/24/71455/9632
http://realreligiousleft.blogspot.com/2006/05/state-of-belief-may-21-part-2.html

P.S. I would like to note here that the people in power then with the Reagan administration are the same ones in power today, like Negroponte, Rumsfieled, Cheney and Co. They literally got away with the murder of thousands to line their opwn pockets. If the American public had been more aware of the Sanctuary Movement in the 1980s and what it was trying to do, those people would be in jail or at the very least publicly chastised and would not have been able to do all the damage they have and are doing today. But I cannot tell you how many times I tried to talk to a neighbor or co-worker who told me "It was too much to deal with" and/or "they did not have time" to even listen to what was happening. Even then our media even then was either all into crap that did not matter and/or they were buying the Reagan Koolaide instead of telling the truth as to what was happening in S. America.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #56
125. I"m going to have to read this a section at a time, Joshua.... thanks for posting!
My eyes don't do well with a screen for long periods of time... I'm going to print this and read it in sections.

I really appreciate you sharing this! I notice it is a midterm... where are you in school, if I may ask?

Thanks again!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Utopian Leftist Donating Member (204 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
58. Great Topic!
This is SO important to understanding the problems America currently faces.

And this has ALWAYS been the case in this country. The famous anarchist Emma Goldman wrote about this almost a century ago. She described the sociological perspective of America’s mentality as, "Only a masked attempt to repress and defeat the individual," and went on to say:

"This 'rugged individualism' has inevitably resulted in the greatest modern slavery, the crassest class distinctions, driving millions to the breadline. 'Rugged individualism' has meant all the 'individualism' for the masters, while the people are regimented into a slave caste to serve a handful of self-seeking 'supermen.' America is perhaps the best representative of this kind of individualism, in whose name political tyranny and social oppression are defended and held up as virtues; while every aspiration and attempt of man to gain freedom and social opportunity to live is denounced as 'unAmerican' and evil in the name of that same individualism."

Amazing how accurately that quote describes the modern Bushite mentality!

That quote is from her essay "The Individual, Society and the State" and can be found on the Anarchy Archives Website here:

http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/goldman/goldmanindivsoc.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kenfrequed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
78. I agree
Completely and whole heartedly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
salib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
81. Very interesting thoughts

Here are some thoughts about what you have written:

From OP ---
The Conservative paradigm of poverty goes back to the beginnings of this nation. We Americans have always liked to envision our country as The Land Of Opportunity. We are proud of the notion that everyone can "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", and "make it" in the U.S. We believe there are economic opportunities for all -- everyone has a share of the pie, as long as they work for it."

This pride led to the prideful quotation from Benjamin Franklin, "God helps those who help themselves", which is antithetical to the teachings of the Bible. We place high value on individualism and self-reliance. We hold on to the belief that hard work is rewarded and if you are a "good person" you will be held in high regard. Concerning poverty, we may feel sad to see people in poverty, but we don't see it as unfair. If people work hard, they will "make it: so how could it possibly be unfair?

This pride led to the prideful quotation from Benjamin Franklin, "God helps those who help themselves", which is antithetical to the teachings of the Bible. We place high value on individualism and self-reliance. We hold on to the belief that hard work is rewarded and if you are a "good person" you will be held in high regard. Concerning poverty, we may feel sad to see people in poverty, but we don't see it as unfair. If people work hard, they will "make it: so how could it possibly be unfair?
---

Remember, the Horacio Alger stories and the phrase "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" dates a century later, the 1870's-1900. That time period is certainly more rife with the type of conservative thought I believe you are alluding to. Despite some of the founders (Ben Franklin and Alexander Hamilton come to mind), most were in fact quite aware that being an indentured servant left one unable to simply help oneself, let alone the fact that the frontier pointed out how vulnerable one was, no matter how independent, without the protection of society and Government. The majority was largely in favor of and did eliminate debters' prisons, ensure bankruptcy was a right (second chances and the ability to wipe the slate clean despite individual actions), "the General Welfare" in the preamble to the Constitution, etc.

From OP ---
The model in this paradigm for "fixing" poverty, then would be the stern, authoritarian parent --"Shape up or ship out", "You made your bed, now you can lie in it". This paradigm holds firmly to the carrot and stick model. This mindset leads directly to the sort of treatment encountered recently by a DUer: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"One of the reasons that American poverty is so severe is precisely the result of this mindset. The old paradigm offers little in the way of ideas for truly understanding and addressing poverty, and, in fact, provides a justification for doing little." One Nation, Underprivileged page 175.

Even those in poverty tend to reply on these beliefs. Interestingly, they often see themselves as an exception and everyone else in poverty as stereotypically flawed.
---

You made a bit of a logical leap here. Giving you the benefit of the doubt on the timing of the growth of the belief that one should be responsible for one's own poverty, nevertheless, you then jump to the conclusion and "fixing" poverty is the authoritarian parent. You must first consider that:
1. The "authoritarian parent" the the only or at least most predominant and most effective motivational means for these individuals
2. The "authoritarian parent" is the only one that these conservatives would think of

If one looks at those assumptions for a bit, I suspect one may realize that a major aspect of the "problem" is one of a cognitive disconnect between those who truly jump always to the assumption that reward and punishment by an authority is the best motivational method. Truly two ships passing in the night. I submit, instead, that we are really looking at the plain and very apparent reality that many people simply do not respond to this method of motivation. Besides, if it were so effective, why all the "misbehavior" in a society that so often punishes and rewards to the exclusion of nearly all other possible ways of motivating? It obviously does not work in general, and for a very large percentage of the population.

We liberals are aware of the underlying realization, maybe by way of the "click", that people are truly different, from us, from each other, between you and I. However, it is very easy to fall into the easy generalization and say "if only we did ..." (fill in your own most self-effective motivational method) "... then the problem would be resolved." The problem is that simply because it works for me does not mean it will work for anyone else.

So, while I really appreciate where you are going with the rest of your post, I believe there is a great deal to learn when we step away from the quick association with the sole authoritarian model of motivation and manipulation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. The problem: Given peoples' attention spans, I can't include everything.
Long posts don't get responses.

So, I depend on others, such as yourself, to add more.

Which is what you've done, and I thank you.

I see no "disconnect" between what you say, and what I wrote. It's all part of the same picture.

I hope you can understand that poverty, being of little interest on DU, is tricky to write about.

And, I hope you will give this a rec, to keep it getting some attention from those who ordinarily don't give poverty a thought.

Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
96. Thank you.
:thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trthnd4jstc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
88. This is why I am a Democratic Socialist
Edited on Wed Mar-05-08 04:43 PM by trthnd4jstc
Life is not easy. When one falls into poverty, it is very difficult to rise out of it. People may think that they can turn their backs on their brothers and sisters, but I will tell them this, "You may have it good now, but God forbid your world falls apart." To those that hold the Republican View of Poverty I am certain that if they were done on their luck that they would prefer having a world ruled by the mixed economy, as opposed to the world ruled by the free market. Our world is kinder and more just than their world. It has always been. Their world is similar to hell on Earth.

Hi bobbolink!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #88
108. Countries where Democratic Socialists wield power, poor folk are much better off!
Median per capita gross domestic product of Canada is 19 percent below the median in the US. Nevertheless, the poorest 18 percent of Canadians remain better off than the poorest 18 percent of Americans.

Norway: the poorest 38 percent of the people fare better, on average, than the poorest 38 percent of Americans, despite a lower medican per capita GDP.

"We choose to let the market determine most everything", says Timothy Smeeding, a public policy professor at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University. "We do far less on the social side. We have not as good a safety net. The priorities aren't there. Other countries make other choices."

We CHOOSE to have poverty!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trthnd4jstc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. Nice Reply
I very much appreciate your response. I may never become wealthy, but I hope never to be a tyrant. I think that if the Republican Platform truly was superior there would be no need for some, like myself, to have to go to the extreme of being a Social Democrat, in our Republic. I have brought myself to this place because of my concern for the big picture. I, obviously, do not chose to have poverty. I am thankful to have your comments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. I'm grateful for your concern for the "big picture". I've taken lots of abuse for my
stand.

I very much appreciate folks like you who have the integrity to see it, to work for it, and withstand the slings and arrows for doing so!

Welcome to DU!! I hope you post lots more on poverty!

:applause: :pals: :patriot: :pals: :applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #88
120. This one's a keeper
" "You may have it good now, but God forbid your world falls apart.""
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jobendorfer Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
93. Defining the Locus
"In this belief system, the burden falls solely on the individual."

Sure, because if you define the problem as lying with an individual ( poor character, bad moral habits, whatever ) you define the locus, the scope of the corrective action to the individual.

And thus magically hand-wave away any thought that the problem might be trans-personal, i.e., collective, and thus require a collective, social, or gasp! a governmental and regulatory response.

Adler called it Gemeinschaft-geflihl, a capacity to recognize and act on behalf of the needs of the community.
There isn't a word for it in American English. Which is telling.

J.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
94. Kick There is such a wealth of information here!
I hope everyone will read the entire thread.
Thanks to all who posted here!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Herman74 Donating Member (429 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
103. DON'T BE SO DEPRESSED! Read what Obama, Clinton and even McCain...
...would do to reduce extreme poverty (the link below gives their goals on reducing several different manifestations of extreme poverty):

http://www.onevote08.org/ontherecord/compare.html?c=3&c=8&c=13

Obama has declared that reaching World Millennium Development Goals (cutting the number of those in extreme poverty in half by 2015) will be official U.S. policy if he is elected.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Welll, Clinton is certainly great....
If I were living in Africa:

Same with McCain:

Obama... I'm not a child and no longer a mother, so I don't count.

PPPffffttttttt...........
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #103
132. personalizing it
People are not necessarily "depressed" and didn't ask for your diagnosis. People are suffering. Now. That is objective reality. One’s internal emotional state taking precedence over that is an essential and undeniable part of the problem.

You have reduced these issues to how we fell about things, and it is implicit that only the upper 10% who could still be reasonably called "middle class" can afford the luxury of worrying first and foremost about how they feel and confusing that with political thought.

There are some things about which the appropriate and sane response is depression, sadness and anger. Our humanitarian and compassionate and perfectly legitimate and human responses to the suffering of others is not the problem. It is the suffering itself that is the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-07-08 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #132
139. Very astute. It felt like a correction, and I don't need to be told what not to feel.
Thanks for pointing that out!

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
113. Back up the ladder n/t
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
114. Damn. Too late to recommend!
Great post, even though the reality is soooooooooooooooooo depressing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #114
121. Is that why so many "liberals" don't want to look at this, do you think?
They want "happy news"...??

I'm not sure I can figure it out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #121
138. That is a good question.
Maybe it's that, maybe it's the helpless syndrome, maybe it's I do what I can, I don't have a good answer, I'm sorry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
115. To go along with the just word fallacy...
http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/invuln.html

I think that it is part culture, but it's also just a universal human negative coping mechanism. I have come to realize that most of the other members of our species are pretty weak-minded and have to construct all kinds of ego defenses to protect themselves from reality - such as blaming victims rather than face the reality that anyone can end up in any sort of situation.

You see the vestiges of it on DU, although I think that DU has a higher percentage of people who've grown past it than the average population. But you see people talking about how some friend or relative did everything right but still ended up in a sucky situation.

You can't control life. Shit happens. Deal, and have a little compassion for everyone else going through the same shit. It's not that hard, really. And most of us in this thread get that. But for some reason it is hard for most humans.

I find it kind of weird that the human fear of bad things makes bad things happen more. Like, "I'm afraid of poverty, so I'll just make people currently in poverty suffer a lot more than they need to!" Or "I'm afraid of death, so I'll cheer and support the killing of a lot of other people! Yay!" or "I'm afraid that I'll get raped, so I'll make life already more horrible for rape victims than it was!"

God, I hate humans.

And then when you try to enlighten them and tell them that stuff just randomly happens, they're all like, "Well, then, why be good or do anything?" What kind of disturbed person is only good for an external reward?

I don't want to be part of this species anymore.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #115
122. Interesting, I don't see Indians judging others that way, including anglos.
I don't see most African-Americans judging others that way.

No, I don't think it's a "human thing", although if you feel strongly about the human race, I can understand that.

There *is* a difference between culture and innate characteristics.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-05-08 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
117. The rich destroy the middle class and the working poor
and then we internalize their judgment and think that it's OUR fault that we can't find a job, in spite of having lots of skills and education. They teach us to blame ourselves, and it's not our fault.

We've done the best we could at our jobs and the best we could at searching for a job. But we didn't know the right people. That's what matters.

Looking for a job is a total waste of time these days. And a complete farce as well.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. Yes, internalizing is a HUGE issue! Poor folk internalize the crap they get,
and then turn that on each other.

I don't know the answer to that. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
128. applying Galbraith's statement
Edited on Thu Mar-06-08 03:31 PM by Two Americas
"Increasingly in recent times we have come first to identify the remedy that is most agreeable, most convenient, most in accord with major pecuniary or political interest, the one that reflects our available faculty for action; then we move from the remedy so available or desired back to a cause to which that remedy is relevant."

The opening quote in the OP is very powerful, but it may not be immediately obvious how to apply it to the current political battles. We have seen what he is describing again and again, and it is causing much division and threatens to split the party.

What he is saying is that when we start with the assumption that anything we do or advocate must first fit into a certain non-threatening, comfortable and easy path that does not rock the boat, that "works within the system," that eschews getting "too radical," that is first and foremost is "realistic" and "practical," we have established a context within which no progress for left wing political programs can ever be possible. We are asking a question that has no good answer - "given the way the system is, what can we do to help people?" The answer to that question is "nothing" because it is the system that is causing the problems.

We saw this in action right here in the bitter debates about Google's charitable actions, about the carrot and stick "solution" to the "problem" of plastic bags, in the resistance people have to unambiguously calling the 2000 installation of the Bush administration for what it was - a criminal and treasonous act, and in may other debates.

We cannot successfully promote liberal progressive or left wing causes with any hope of success, if at the same time we are going to insist upon defending and promoting the right wing, libertarian upper class context within which we are trying to discuss these issues. The two are completely incompatible and contradictory to one another, and the attempt that many of us our making to keep both of these contradictory ideas in our minds at the same time is the exact reason why everyone is so angry, stressed, depressed and frustrated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #128
137. "given the way the system is, what can we do to help people?"
"The answer to that question is "nothing" because it is the system that is causing the problems."

BINGO!

But....... you're getting waaay ahead of me..

:) :hi: :)

"the attempt that many of us our making to keep both of these contradictory ideas in our minds at the same time is the exact reason why everyone is so angry, stressed, depressed and frustrated. "

There you go! That statement deserves a thread of it's own!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-06-08 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
135. Kick!
so well said!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-08-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #135
140. Thanks! I hope others' got something out of it, too!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC