California to criminalize home schooling?

[Speck Tater]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20080308/us_time/criminalizinghomeschoolers

Criminalizing Home Schoolers

Parents of the approximately 200,000 home-schooled children in California are reeling from the possibility that they may have to shutter their classrooms - and go back to school themselves - if they want to continue teaching their own kids. On Feb. 28, Judge H. Walter Croskey of the Second District Court of Appeals in Los Angeles ruled that children ages six to 18 may be taught only by credentialed teachers in public or private schools - or at home by Mom and Dad, but only if they have a teaching degree. Citing state law that goes back to the early 1950s, Croskey declared that "California courts have held that under provisions in the Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children." Furthermore, the judge wrote, if instructors teach without credentials they will be subject to criminal action.

more at link.

My two cents worth: All of my grandchildren were home schooled. The oldest is at Oxford University becoming a history teacher, and the youngest is due to complete high school this year. The quality of their education has been far better than what I got from public schools. This ruling is ridiculous.

[tachyon]

1. The ruling appears to affirm the law as written. It doesn't make the law "right"

according to your standards, it just recognizes what the legislature legally did.

[Taverner]

2. BS...they're just making sure there are standards

So we don't end up with a generation of Flat-earthers...

[selador]

3. standards

lol

i've already posted study after study after study that show that homeschoolers routinely outperform publically educated by a significant margin.

this has nothing to do with standards. it has to do with the state wanting to control other's children.

[Taverner]

4. But with homeschoolers there's the chance the rogue flat earther comes out there

Ban HomeSchooling!

[selador]

8. exactly

and they'll waste their life searching for the edge...

"there be dragons"

[hendo]

9. Yes...

Let's ban something for no good reason. Seriously, wtf.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

20. Horse crap...

Dan Quayle went to public school! Going through a state school is *no* guarantee that a kids will come out educated or able to think.

[WinkyDink]

171. Well, he WAS Vice-President. Anyway, not exactly a scientific sample.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

53. Outperformed based on possibly fraudulent numbers.

Why would you trust the numbers their fundy parents send in when you won't trust them on anything else?
Duckie

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

64. ummm..

Among the numbers where homeschooler significantly out perform public schoolers are the SAT and ACT scores

[YellowRubberDuckie]

138. I wasn't thinking useless tests...

I was thinking day to day school work.
And tests mean shit when you think about it. I can make A's on every assignment and know my shit, but as soon as I sit down to take a TEST, I lose it all.
Duckie

[selador]

140. lol

whatever you think of the tests, they are objective.

by OBJECTIVE measures, homeschoolers are totally kickin-ass .

so, of course you ignore the objective measures since the real world doesn't conform to your ideology.

very typical

and because YOU (one individual) have an issue with tests, they are now an invalid metric.

that's a nice logical fallacy there, as well.

never fails. when the facts dispute your prejudgments, discount their validity, and throw in a personal anecdotal data point.

very "logical"

[elizfeelinggreat]

70. not all homeschoolers are religious freaks

Although some would like you to believe that's true, it's not.

As others have pointed out, you certainly do not need to be homeschooled to have lying parents or poor educational opportunities.


If you want to see some documented cheating on numbers check out this story about the test score manipulation in Houston public schools:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/06/60II/main591676.shtml

[selador]

128. ridiculous

these are not the #'s that the "fundy parents" "send in"

they are based on verifiable test scores.

your blatant bias is clear in that you obviously have not even read the studies, or even abstracts thereof but are just kneejerking based on your prejudice against homeschoolers.

and fwiw, one of my best friends is an atheist libertarian homeschooler.

he thinks fundies are idiots, but he respects their rights to homeschool.

the facts, which most people here who are anti-homeschool ignore (don't let facts get in the way of ideology lord forbid) is that homeschoolers routinely outperform publically educated kids.

i posted links to over a DOZEN verifiable studies.

[Frances]

5. I believe you when you say that your home-schooled

grandchildren got a good education.

However, I know one child who was home-schooled for part of her fifth grade year by her parents. Neither parent went past 8th grade. Both parents had IQs just barely within the normal range. Their child was better off in a public school in California.

[Warpy]

12. That's really the problem, the unevenness of the curricula

and of the parents' ability to teach it. Some kids who are home schooled do beautifully, but I'm afraid there are a lot we don't hear about, kids who plod through a heavily religious curriculum and are fit for no higher education at all, not to mention few jobs.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. Here is the bull crap part!

Look for every kid someone knows who 'are better off in public schools' I can point to a kid who went through the public schools that cant read..

Two Questions:

1) Shouldn't parents have the right to, in the end, make the ultimate decisions about their kids education? There will, of course, be exceptions but lets focus on the rule first and let the judical branch take care of exceptions.

2) what are the reasonable limits that someone should have to meet in order to home school..
- HS Diploma
- BS (in anything)
- Teaching certificate
- Special (new certificate)
And what should the burden be?

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. The reasonable limit...

... is that the students pass annual standardized tests, administered by an independent proctor.

I couldn't care less the qualifications of the teacher, provided they're getting the job done.

Let's get some perspective - the guy who's ultimately in charge of this country's public education system once said; "rarely is the questioned asked: is our children learning?"

[Frances]

108. And that person's parents attended elite universities

He had degrees from Yale and Harvard.

Certainly, Bush is proof that the "best" educational institutions don't always succeed in educating.

But the fifth grader I am referring to had a father with a terrible temper and a mother who did not protect the child.

I guess what I'm saying is that one size does not fit all when it comes to education.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

110. Sounds reasonable to me!

[Stanley Nickels]

175. Disagree totally

We homeschool our kids and I'm positive that they would do poorly on any of the standardized tests. Why?

1. Because we don't structure their education around keeping them in line with 30 other kids their age. They might be well ahead of others at reading but behind in math.
2. We don't follow any government mandated schedule of when to teach what.
3. We don't teach our kids to take tests - we simply teach them until they have learned the subject. No need to give a formal test.

So forcing homeschooled kids to take standardized tests would not be an effective way to measure if they are being educated. That is a big reason we homeschool in the first place - to get away from the standardized testing and focus on real learning.

[lumberjack_jeff]

177. Is not the SAT "a standardized test"?

You can only quantify one's mastery of a subject by testing. At risk of being blunt, if their education doesn't enable them to pass a test, it's not a useful primary education because they are not equipped for college or trade school. IMHO, you are homeschooling for the wrong reasons.

The only exception to testing I would support is for children with an IEP. Many kids with ASD or other developmental disorders are being homeschooled because the school setting itself precludes learning. Many if not most would surely fail standardized tests in a school setting anyhow.

[Stanley Nickels]

184. That's where we differ

We are educating our children for life - not for tests. We want them to be prepared for life - not to bubble in scan-tron forms. and I am perfectly capable of quantifying my children's mastery of a subject without administering some sort of test. That's one of the cool things about homeschooling.

Of course we will ensure our kids can do well on the SAT and will be prepared for college - but putting them into public schools or giving them standardized tests all year/every year is not the way we want to go about it.

[Source to Sea]

204. I could live with that.

My wife and I will most likely never homeschool our unconceived children, but basically outlawing that option just isn't right. I'm sure people can pull studies for either side, but there's a part of me that cringes at too much mandated government influence.

[treestar]

127. Sure, but aren't some of those children going to end up with a very

poor education?

Most states allow homeschooling - California allows them to be considered private schools - but there are still going to be standards about what is taught there. Suppose a parent thinks that all science is wrong and teaches only religion? You're going to have those people in society when they grow up.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

202. Ummmm

Arent some kids in the public schools ending up with a poor education?

[ristruck]

23. Really really dumb

That is a ridiculous argument. I once knew a public school kid who picked his nose in class. He was better off being at home. We should pass a law banning public school. What happened to freedom? Do you not read the stats on home schoolers? They kick ass over public school kids. Where have you been? Duh!!

[Bluebear]

6. No, it appears that they would like to set an educational standard for the home teachers

Why is that objectionable?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. As a whole its not...

But requiring a parent to go back to college for four years to get a teaching certificate is ridiculous! Especially in a time when a university education is too expensive for most working families... (this is *not* progressive)...

[BearSquirrel2]

24. Then I guess ...

Then I guess that requiring educators to go to school is equally ridiculous.

The idea is that kids are required to go to school with instructors who know something about their subjects and know something about child psychology.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

27. A couple of holes in your argument..

1) There is a difference between teaching 25 kids and 2 kids..

2) Because a school is itself a state institution *of course* they should regulate their employees. A family however is *not* an institution of the state and should not be regulated to this degree

[YellowRubberDuckie]

54. When it comes to educational standards...

...and these kids possibly going to a University later, what's wrong with making sure the kid is getting a good education? Parents aren't always good at protecting their kids. And when it comes to their education, they are known to cheat to make their children look better than what they necessarily are.
Duckie

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

65. The harm done by invading the privacy and sancaty of a parent kid relationship for everyone

is nowhere near the harm done by the huge minority of the homeschooling community that does not give their kids an adaquate education.

Duckie,

There kids are ont cheating on the SAT or ACT, the homeschooling kids at universities like Boston College who outperform public school graduates are not having their parents do homework for them..

[BearSquirrel2]

80. cite your studies ...

My understanding of the topic is that there is a lot of cherry picking going on.

And BTW, if your argument is individual attention ... great ... thats an argument for more teachers and smaller class sizes.

How come expensive private schools always tout their low class sizes and the "elite" send their kids there. But then those same "elite" argue for economy and larger class sizes when it comes to public education?

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. Homeschooling will always have an advantage wrt class size.

Unless you envision classes of three students who stay with the same teacher for their entire academic career.

[BearSquirrel2]

120. I don't believe the "same" teacher ...

I don't believe the "same" teacher would be helpful. This person would have to truly extraordinary to carry the depth and experience of various individuals teaching in their subject for years. I just think it would be better to get class sizes down to about 15.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

112. The only possible cherry picking on the SAT

would be that one can leave the school blank or fill in home school... And the Study at BC involved no cherry picking at all..

If you really wish pm me and Ill dig up the numbers for you but I dont have allot of time right now

[BearSquirrel2]

121. Citation please ...

I don't need you to dig up numbers, just supply your links so I can check the methodology. You sound like a bushie talking about how you can't fake the SAT. Yes, but you could cherry pick your sample.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

131. Here is some..

Standardized test results for 16,000 home educated children, grades K-12, were analyzed in 1994 by researcher Dr. Brian Ray. He found the nationwide grand mean in reading for homeschoolers was at the 79th percentile; for language and math, the 73rd percentile.

A Harvard University (MA) admissions officer said most of their home-educated students "have done very well. They usually are very motivated in what they do." Results of the SAT and SAT II, an essay, an interview, and a letter of recommendation are the main requirements for home-educated applicants. " irrelevant because a transcript is basically a comparison to other students in the school."

"http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.asp"

--

Homeschoolers continue to exhibit academic excellence on national averages for college admissions tests when compared to public school students.

The ACT college admission exam scores show homeschoolers consistently performing above the national average. In both 2002 and 2003, the national homeschool average was 22.5, while the national average was 20.8.

The College Board, which administers the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) also notes the above-average performance of homeschoolers. In 2002, homeschoolers averaged 1092, 72 points higher than the national average of 1020. In 2001, homeschoolers scored 1100 on the SAT, compared to the national average of 1019. (2003 homeschool statistics not yet available.)

http://www.hslda.org/docs/news/hslda/200312/200312040.asp

--

BTW The one thing I notice here (on this thread) is the common game of making a claim (i.e. Homeschooling is inferior to public schools) over and over again the whole time asking people to disprove what is, as of yet, a baseless claim...

Regards

[BearSquirrel2]

147. Thank you ...

Thank you for your links from the Home School Legal Defense Association.

I challenge the methodologies of these studies and also take exceptions to the "studies" done and Oral Roberts and Bob Jones Universities.

The problem with these studies is that there is no way here to control for self selection. Rather than take college entrance exams, we should be looking at how students are doing on the mandatory state exams that determine the success rate for a school. That means EVERY student must take them.

College entrance exams are aggressively pushed in high schools. It's not unreasonable that the lurking variable here is that home lower performing self schoolers are self eliminating themselves by not taking the exams.

I find the Harvard anecdotes completely uncompelling. EVERY student there has been selected based on there capability to handle an academic load. Every situation will likely produce good result and bad results. What we are really interested in is the median/mode and the distribution. Unless you force the homeschool students to take the same tests as the public schools, you cannot make adequete comparisons.

I will tell you this. If homeschoolers ARE doing that much better it would indicate that teachers are overeducated and too few.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

156. Perhaps you can point to something

*anything* which shows that home school families *dont* do, on average, as well as their public school counterparts.

Does it not make *at least* a little sense that a kid getting a (1-3):1 ration with their educatior would do better than say 18-22:1?

[BearSquirrel2]

169. In elementary education ...

First, I believe that you are the one making the claim. You have the burden of proof. A bad study doesn't shift it to me. Those studies suffer from the fact that they are voluntary samples. The demographics of those who take placement exams between home and school educators may be very different.

In elementary education, I think this would be advantageous as long as the adult was smart and dedicated. In secondary, I believe that the lack of depth of content knowledge would nullify the advantage of low student to "teacher" ratio.

If you pay attention to what you're doing, the more you teach the better you get. If you're homeschooling a one or two kids, you get one or two shots at it. If you haven't taken abstract mathematics classes, you are mechanically with numbers and letters. You cannot see the underlying grease that makes the whole thing flow. This is important these concepts really need to be dribbled in if you want students to come away with a long lasting and universally applicable understanding of the meaning of proof and justification that mathematics can provide.

I have talked to physics educators at the college level. They seem to suffer from the same bane that students can methodically chug through equations and chug through calculations but have no idea of what their calculations really mean. No doubt most of these students came from school, but in order to understand the concepts you may need a little more progress in the field than having passed a physics course yourself and knowing what to do to both sides of the equation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. The same is frequently true of "real" teachers. n/t

[YellowRubberDuckie]

137. I will totally cede to your logic.

[BearSquirrel2]

79. So if you only have 2 kids ...

So when you only have two kids, all the sudden you have an in depth conceptual knowledge of your topic area. In that case ... what is your topic area?? So having two kids makes you in expert in Grammar/Mathematics/Technology/PE/Music/Foreign Language/History/Sociology/Biology/Chemistry/Physics.

Do you get my point? Just because you can answer a few question in the book doesn't mean you know what you're doing. And if your knowledge of history is limited to what is in a high school level text, you're a real rube. High school social studies textbooks are state propaganda manuals.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

113. Irony...

"High school social studies textbooks are state propaganda manuals."

Yet the vast majority of kids learn pretty much verbatim rom these text... And youre questioning home schooling?

[BearSquirrel2]

123. No ...

HS SOCIAL STUDIES texts are effectively just propaganda manuals. But they are almost completely factual. The bias comes from only presenting a single view of history, the rah, rah, we're #1 view. I don't think you can cover a topic well without looking at the views of those who LOST historical battles.

I'm sure a dynamic group of individuals could probably do better than a public school. But we're talking about random people. If the law says you must be educated, and the law says educators must meet certain standards, then homeschoolers should have to meet those same standards.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

45. I agree that forcing parents to get a teaching cert is ridiculous

But the idea of enforcing education levels, even for home schoolers or private schools is a necessity. I think in general that home schoolers come out above their publicly educated peers, but there are a lot of home schooling fundies out there that want to move away from teaching science, math, and history because it disagrees with their rigid religious beliefs. These people SHOULD face criminal charges if they are home schooling their children in this crap.

What would work better than a forced teaching degree is some sort of required certificate that a parent can earn over a summer that prepares them for the job. In essence it would "license" the parent or guardian as a legitimate home school teacher as recognized by the state.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

56. I dont see why...

Im sorry but I just do see that the benefit of forcing individualis to teach a curriculum that goes against their beliefs anywhere near outweighs the damage done by empowering the government *that* much control in private peoples lives...

[EvolveOrConvolve]

92. It wouldn't exclude parents from teaching whatever garbage they want to their kids

But, minimal standards benefit society in the long run, and exposure to real, i.e. factual history lessons perhaps can undo some of the damage done by the stifling and dogmatic teachings rampant in fundamentalists worlds. Plus, the U.S. is so far behind other industrialized nations in science and math that it's time we started focusing on those subjects. Home schoolers meeting minimal math and science standards is not a tough thing to ask.

I have *no* problem giving government the control over something that can damage society in the long run. As I pointed out, most (probably 95% or more) of home schoolers end up with a better education and more rounded experience. It's the 5% that do the damage, especially with their prodigious breeding habits and isolationist beliefs. In a generation or 2, those breeding-rabbit fundies could be 10-15% of the population, and we've seen what a fundie base can do to the country (the last eight years is an example).

Done right, home schooling is a wonderful thing, and while I'm generally against government more regulation, this is regulation that can weed out that 5% and force them to at least meet minimal standards or face sanctions.

Tell me what's wrong with requiring 1) a certification process to assure that home school parents are up to the task of preparing their kids to be productive members of society; and 2) regular standards evaluations to keep tabs on the progress of home schoolers, again to assure that their education is meeting at least minimal standards. The same should apply to all private schools. That doesn't mean that the home school parents can't teach their own version of nonsense to their kids, just that they should first meet minimal qualification standards before doing so, and be required to educate to certain standards in math, science and history.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

114. This is frightening..

"I have *no* problem giving government the control over something that can damage society in the long run."

*ANYTHING* can damage society in the long run, our eating habits, our laungauge, our free speech..

"1) a certification process to assure that home school parents are up to the task of preparing their kids to be productive members of society"

This all depends on what we set as the bar does it not? Certainly Cali's standards are *way* out of whack

"2) regular standards evaluations to keep tabs on the progress of home schoolers"

Again this depends on what those standards encompass

[EvolveOrConvolve]

124. Just as we outlaw murder, theft, rape, etc.

Those laws are simply regulations to maintain a functioning society. Moving down the slippery slope of allowing home schooler parents to teach their kids whatever religious garbage they desire steers us towards a society that looks more like that of Saudi Arabia instead of a modern democracy. This is what social liberalism aims to remove.

The standards are simple: 1) is the parent *intelligent* enough to actually provide a good education; 2) are the children making satisfactory progress in the basic subjects. Grade level and age level education standards are pretty standard across the nation. It wouldn't be difficult to tie home and private schools to these minimum requirements.

"*ANYTHING* can damage society in the long run, our eating habits, our laungauge(sic), our free speech.."

If we had universal health care, eating habits would be policed as well. Language doesn't damage society in any way - perhaps one can be offended by certain language, but society is not going to crumble because of poor language. And free speech? This argument has been rehashed over and over and over. If you are publishing abortion doctor's phone #'s, addresses, etc. on the web and inciting murder, your free speech rights have gone out the window. A person's right to free speech ends at the point when that speech begins to harm others.

You sound like a libertarian, which I have nothing against other than the fact that it's completely infeasible as a doctrine.

Again the question: what harm does it do to kids to enforce a standard so that they go into society well-equipped educationally? A huge percentage of home schoolers would have no problem meeting minimum standards, and I'd hope they would welcome some oversight as being in the best interest of their children.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

142. Murder, theft and rape

Are crimes against another individules rights, they are not on the books so people will fit into some educational or philosophical class..

Im not an opponent of having homeschooler have to make their kids take the same test as their public school peers at the end of the year. But whats the remedy if a kids fails (say math)? certainly we would not yank a kid out of the public schools for failing so why out of a home school

[BearSquirrel2]

81. Look at it this way ...

What's stopping any parent from just pulling their kid from school and claiming he's being home schooled when absolutely nothing is going on?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

93. Nothing right now in most states

I live in Idaho which has a large population of home schoolers, many of which are going the home school route to keep their children from being exposed to anything which disagrees with their religious beliefs. They have home school groups, but many of those are comprised of members of their own church, and the child is never exposed to anything outside their own insular cocoon of dogma.

Parents should definitely have the right to home school their kids, but is it too much to ask to require they be qualified before doing so? Is it too much to ask to require minimal education on certain subject matters?

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. The proof should be in the pudding.

If the students consistently pass standardized tests, the state should basically butt out.

Their interest is in an adequately educated citizenry, there are many paths which lead to that point.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

115. They consistently

do better on the sat and act..

[BearSquirrel2]

148. Wherever you set that bar ...

Wherever you set that bar ... you should set it consistently. So if you lower the bar for home teachers, you should equally do it for those in classrooms.

What?? Do you think college is four years of classroom management techniques????

[LWolf]

91. I have a California Clear teaching credential.

It took more than 4 years; a BA + 30 post-graduate units, plus student teaching, plus several examinations to prove subject matter and pedagogical competency.

It is expensive and time consuming, and it doesn't pay much. My oldest son, who quit college after he got his AA at the local cost-effective community college because he didn't want to take on debt to go farther, was making more money than I three years later, and I'd been teaching for many years by then.

Your comment simply points out what little esteem our culture holds educators in.

If we're "highly qualified," we're still "incompetent" in the eyes of the general public, because we can't perform miracles in a dysfunctional system.

But home-schooled kids don't need teachers with the education.

[LibDemAlways]

183. I also earned a Calif. Clear K-12 credential. It

was, as you describe, a long, often difficult, and expensive road.

After a break to raise my daughter, I returned to the classroom this year as a substitute teacher.
Even the lowly "sub" must have a credential in this district.

Meanwhile I have a friend who is home-schooling her 15-year-old ice skater daughter. My friend is a nice enough person, but she has no college education. She also has no interest in anything going on in the world and thinks whatever Brittney Spears is up to qualifies as news. It's hard to imagine that her daughter is receiving the same level of instruction as 9th graders enrolled in the local high school. The girl spends much of her day either at the ice rink or travelling an hour each way to and from the ice rink. "School" is, at best, an afterthought.

I realize that each situation is different, and there are no doubt well-qualified home-schooling parents and motivated students. However, that is not the case for all, and ultimately it's the children in marginal situations who will suffer. I think the judge is right. There should be standards for anyone who takes on the responsibility of educating a child.

[DangerDave921]

50. Yeah OK

So all home-school teachers can be as dumb as your average public school teacher. Let's be honest. Teaching does not attract the best and brightest minds. Some are, of course. But generally, education majors are at the low end of the spectrum in terms of test scores. So I applaud home-schooling.

[Bluebear]

139. 'education majors are at the low end of the spectrum in terms of test scores' - document, please?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

143. Sources..

http://www.iupui.edu/~philosop/gre.htm

--

Education fields rank pretty low

[BearSquirrel2]

152. I didn't see any "homemakers" on that list ...

Seriously, I didn't see any home economics majors on that list. You're not even comparing apples to oranges.

BTW, some other highlights from this study.

Mechanical Engineers - 42/50 in Analytic writing
Electrical Engineers 34/50,
Civil Engineers - 35/50 Verbal Reasoning
Business Accounting - 50/50 Verbal Reasoning


Secondary Education came out in the middle and upper end of the pack:

Verbal Reasoning 21/50
Quantitative Reasoning 25/50
Analytic Writing 14/50


I smart person willing to keep 2 weeks ahead of their students could probably pull off home schooling (save in mathematics). But once you start specializing, you'll probably really under serve your students.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

157. I dont remember any 'homemaking majors in college'

I do, however, know people with educations in everything from engineering to philosophy who stay home to school their kids..

BTW the average education major who *might* have taken a couple of chem courses is not *specialized* in chemistry..

[BearSquirrel2]

168. Correlation and Education ...

First, I am pointing out that there is no correlation between GRE accomplishment and home schoolers since you used this list to criticize educators. Your home educators could be psychology or religion majors for all you know.

Second, secondary educators take a pretty rigorous regimen of courses. Physical science is one area where I do think teachers lack depth as they are half physics and half chemistry teachers.

http://bulletin.ipfw.edu/preview_program.php?catoid=1&poid=230&bc=1 You will notice that there are more than just "a couple" chemistry courses here. Likewise there is more than just "a couple" physics courses.

However, your scenario is even worse. Even if your teacher-mommy was an expert in say ... nuclear engineering, you would likely find a lot of deficits in literature. Somehow I'm guessing though that if people went through rigorous degree programs that they are not apt to discard such credentials and stay home all day. It's not really the hallmark of a "go getter".

Finally, a defense and criticism of elementary educators is important. Their material is not sophisticated. These folks specialize in guiding and communicating with small children. They are caught up this this world. I am not surprised that their professional life does not hone Analytic Writing skills as they are used to over simplifying and over generalizing things all day. That is their craft.

In general, all educators really need is to get the class sizes smaller.

[October]

88. My daughter was taught math in school by an English teacher

The teacher was lovely, but clueless in <ath. Oh, but she had "credentials."

Give me a break here. We shouldn't broad-brush anything.

There are plenty of teachers in schools teaching things they know little or nothing about. There are non-Science teachers teaching Science. There are English majors teaching Math or Science.

My daughter decided to pursue ballet, so we started home schooling her in grade 9 to allow for her training. She was an independent learner/worker. I took her to our local community college (at age 15) to take a course in biology because I kow my limitations. In our school system, who knows? They don't have to be certified in the subject they're teaching.

Two of my favorite people (relatives) are teachers. I'm not against them or what they do, but I've seen the "inside" of these school systems. These two people teach in strong, well=paid districts. It can be a joke there, too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. Because a well-educated teacher of 30 new kids each year

is at a disadvantage to a modestly-educated teacher who teaches one child, year after year - even if he or she is learning the curricula alongside the student.

One on one attention is a superior teaching paradigm. All of my kids have been taught in the public school. When the youngest reaches Jr High, we're seriously considering homeschool - at least for the academic classes.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Much as I think it's "a crime" to teach kids gibberish about the Earth being 6,000 yrs old...

I do recognize the right of people to educate their kids as they see fit. If they have such a problem with the public schools that they need to homeschool, they should have that right.

And if fundy nut-clucks really ARE out there teaching their kids "science" about how Jesus rode around curing people from the back of a dinosaur, well, then it'll be that much easier for my kids to get into college instead of theirs.

[Taverner]

10. I don't

We have to agree on a reality, even if that means revoking home-schooling creds for 30% of our state...

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Guess we disagree. I think we're busy enough policing everybody's brains and bloodstreams

trying to make sure, to the tune of $40 Billion a year, that the 60 million otherwise law-abiding citizens who smoke pot aren't getting high.. then after we're all saddled with the GOP's idiotic human life amendment and get the uterus police on board, making sure that no women are "murdering" any fertilzed eggs when they take the birth control pill... how much is that going to cost?

In short, we have more than enough unenforceable laws on the books- and California isn't exactly flush with cash right now. We can't afford a gimungous bureau of home school credential police. Sorry, but if people want to homeschool their kids that bad, let 'em.

I don't agree with 'em, but frankly I'm not interested in enabling some giant, expensive state institution to go after them. How about fixing the schools for the people who actually want to be there, instead?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

22. You ahve to be kidding..

What is progressive about allowing the government to force a reality on people...

[aquart]

11. Well, I do not recognize that right. "See fit," my ass.

The education of the children of a nation is a matter of concern to the entire nation, not merely the parents. Or were you planning to keep these children in the house for the rest of their lives?

[Warren DeMontague]

14. I'm not "planning" anything. I think if people want to homeschool so bad, let 'em.

That's my opinion.

Then at least, their kids won't be shouting down the biology teacher in the local High School with some gibberish they heard from Kirk Cameron about how the human hand was "designed" to hold a banana.

[NashVegas]

17. Children Are Not Property of the State

This is one argument where I tend to side more with conservatives. Strong families are probably the best defense against a dystopian society.

In my city, there's not a single person on the Board of Education who wasn't endorsed by the Chamber of Commerce. Currently they have directly involved themselves in the search for a new director of the school district.

The BFEE and company wants the public school system to be nothing more than a conduit for churning out worker bees.

[Warpy]

18. They're not the PROPERTY of their parents, either!

The state has a vested interest in making sure they are not abused and are educated to become citizens.

Parents love their children and within the above constraints they are allowed a lot of leeway in how you choose to raise them, but they are not the owners of children.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. The states 'vested interest'

Can be used to excuse warrant-less wire taps as well...

[readmoreoften]

36. And the parents 'property rights' over children can allow them to refuse medical treatment

if its against the family's religion. That's how a 5 year old boy died of non-treatment for diabetes in Oregon in the 90s. The reality is, we are not an advanced enough nation to home school. Too much religious hysteria.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

44. Damn right.. (Regarding the subject)

People are *not* breeding machines to continue on the interest of our mighty Government/Culture/Corporate over lords...

Families need to be allowed to make stupid decisions, we dont need the government pressing in on us telling us how to live our lives, who we can marry, who can adopt, who can be or medical proxy's, when to spit, what hours its ok to be out of the hose, what faith (or lack there of) we are allowed to practice..

[Telly Savalas]

51. A child has the right to a decent education, medical care,

and being raised in an abuse-free environment.

When these rights are being trampled by the parents, who's supposed to stand up for these rights if not the state?

When a parent beats his child, the state intervenes. This isn't because parents are supposed to be servants of some mythical power structure like you describe, but rather because a five year old is defenseless and needs an alternative advocate to protect his/her rights when the parents fail to do so.

In a civil society, lines have to be drawn dictating what is and what isn't acceptable parenting practice. One can have a healthy debate on where exactly these lines go, but to accept the libertarian tenet that such lines don't and shouldn't exist is just silly.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

55. The is a world of difference

between beating a kid and refusing medical treatment...

and a universe of difference between beating a kid and homeschooling them! (even if the education is sub standard) to compare the two is ridiculous...

[Telly Savalas]

You're trying to argue that the state should never intervene in the raising of a child.

I'm arguing that this is wrong. You're "government is evil and should stay out of my life" argument can just as easily be made by someone who beats their child.

As a society we've decided beating a child is wrong. A line exists dictating what is and what isn't acceptable. If you want to argue that this line is placed improperly, then fine. But you seem to be decrying the fact that the state can place any limits on what you can do as a parent.

And by the way, denying medical treatment can be worse than a beating.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

59. You make a very good argument..

I just dont look at education standards and abuse as the same thing..

--

I personally agree (with you) about the medical treatment thing but first they came for ....

[Warpy]

106. No, it can't.

Every time it's tried, it's eventually been shot down.

We have too much body of law against it.

[NashVegas]

47. Pop Quiz

18. Which of these quotes regarding education is not real?

1. "School produces mental perversion and absolute stupidity." --Vincent Youmans, world-famous American physician and academic (1867)
2. The creation of the compulsory public schooling system was ordered by "certain industrialists and the innovative who were altering the nature of the industrial process." --James Bryant Conant, President of Harvard University from 1933 to 1953 (1949)
3. "We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science." --Rockefeller's General Education Board (1906)
4. Education is "the development of critical reasoning and the acquiring of basic facts relating to science, history, the arts, and similar areas." --Education Department (1968)

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

58. Lets not forget

Let me control the textbooks and I will control the state. The state will take youth and give to youth its own education and its own upbringing. Your child belongs to us already….what are YOU? ~ Adolph Hitler

It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion. ~ Joseph Goebbels

[Warpy]

104. I didn't like school, either

but you failed to address my point with your quotes against school in general.

[NashVegas]

198. Not So

That was my little way of saying the state's vested interest in schooling children is maybe not what you and most people think it is.

[aquart]

99. Yes, the conservatives began by taking over school boards.

BECAUSE WE LET THEM. Because we only come out for the glamor elections. Because we weren't bothering with the nuts and bolts boring stuff. And then one day we woke up and they were in and we were out. So don't tell me who's on your Board of Education. Why isn't it YOU?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

26. My kids are mine..

Not yours, not the nations, not any churches, not the local PTA.... My kids! They will grow to be their own people... A government hell bent on overriding the parents for the good of the people is fascist..

[elizfeelinggreat]

73. how about parenting as a concern of the entire nation

How well regulated is parenthood? Why in the world aren't we giving tests for that?

How well regulated is the health of our children?
Why don't they all have decent medical care?
Or food for that matter?
Or a safe place to live?

This is a slippery slope you're on.

[ColbertWatcher]

13. Good.

This is very good news.

Now they can get those kids away from the clutches of $cientology.

Keep yourself informed.

http://exscientologykids.com

http://www.xenutv.com/interviews/woodcrafts.htm

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

29. Yea its great when the govt uses its power

To attack a religion... Separation of church and state my ass...

[alarimer]

62. Scientology is a cult, not a religion n/t

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

66. Please find me the legal definition of a cult

FYI: I do think they are a cult but the precedent of the government deciding that scares me..

[BearSquirrel2]

84. Lets just call it a fraud ...

The definition of cult is subject to discussion. Here, we can just refer to them all as frauds or pyramid schemers. If their purpose is to free humanity from thetans, they have no need to charge such lavish fees.

[Warren DeMontague]

134. And the precise difference is....?

I know plenty of people who were fucked up by the Catholic Church as kids.

[jwirr]

16. Home schooling is only as good as the teacher. I have been around

some teachers who were home schooling their children who were so dumb they did not know how to go about it. Unfortunately I also know that sometimes that also happens in regular schools both public and private. What we need is guidelines and testing that really tells us what children are learning not what they have learned for the tests. I do not want children raised to become welfare recipients like the children I watched play in the local park while they should have been in the school room.

[xchrom]

25. it's a good law if you ask me.

if we want crentialed trained teachers in the schools -- the same should be required at home.

[ruggerson]

30. great idea

maybe you won't get fundamentalist freaks teaching their children that evolution did not happen.

[elizfeelinggreat]

74. right

Is this what you think it's all about?

Do you seriously believe that public schooling erases what parents are teaching their children or did it erase all the beliefs you have and replace them with publicly mandated ones?

[MichaelHarris]

31. Homeschooling =

subtle racism and separatism.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. LOL

Ill have to tell that to my African American, home schooled babysitter.. Damn her racist parents..

[MichaelHarris]

34. racism

only has one color? You sure you're qualified to teach children? You don't think there are black people out there who want to separate their children from a society? It's all about separation-ism and your fear of a certain type of society. You keep telling yourself, "I can do it better". All you want to do is control your children, your nickname says it all.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

37. Hmm..

You make a statement that home schooling is racist without any kind of rational, qualification, or (most importantly) evidence..

Fine Maybe her friend who was white and also home schooled and, from time to time, they are home schooled by each others parents together might be evidance that the two of them are not in it because of race..

I myself am in an interracial marriage and my wife wants to home school... Hmm which of us is being racist?

[MichaelHarris]

38. given the fact

I have no idea the color of your children it can't be me right? Could it possibly be the guy who wants to segregate his children from some aspect of a society? What are you hiding them from?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

39. Ok so we have elimated racism.. Thats progress..

My kids are half Irish and half Korean (FYI)...

And we are not hiding from anything, my wife grew up the latch key kid of immigrant parents and she wanted, were the opportunity to present itself, a chance to spend her days with her daughters.

I feel my two kids will do better with one parent teaching them (and only them) than in a class of 25 but were my wife to rather be out of the home then I will find a good school for my kids..

Still I love the fact I know someone as clairvoyant as you, its not every day I meet someone all knowing who can *instantly* read into the motivations of other people... I think Ill go write this in my dairy..

[MichaelHarris]

40. do that

and then ask yourself, "what am I protecting my children from?" You answer that honestly and maybe we can get somewhere.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

41. Im not doing it to protect them....

Im doing it so they can know their mother better, and so my wife can know her kids better...

But hey, who am I to argue with the all knowing..

[MichaelHarris]

42. that's just great

who says they need to interact with kids their own age from a variety of backgrounds. They don't need that crap, keep um at home til they're 30. That's what I say.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

43. Strike Three

Youre Outta Here

Racism (Check)
Fear (Check)
Socialization (Check)

The trifecta of every ignorant 'home schoolers are kooks' main arguments up and down in just a few post...

--

Hmm Dance class, T-Ball, Running around the neighborhood, 4-H, Swimming and other Fun at the Y, Field trips with other home school families...

My kids will get as much interaction with kids of differing backgrounds as kids who spend eight hours a day on a bus, at a desk, or running from one room to another, only to go home and play video games or watch tv.

[MichaelHarris]

117. still here and

you're still protecting your kids from something. You tossed the argument, "some teachers aren't any good", out the door when you disagreed with what California was trying to do. You think it's better to let the unqualified teach rather than have them in a public setting.

No, I'm right where a started. Nothing different in what I claim. I'll ask again, what are you protecting your children from? It's not unqualified teachers, you're OK with that.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

132. Sorry repeating a disproved claim repeaditly

does not make it any less debunked..

'You think it's better to let the unqualified teach rather than have them in a public setting.'

I think its better to let parents make that decision for there kids (you know Liberty and Privacy! two rather progressive concepts). Were I less qualified to teach my kids than a public school teacher I would send my kids to public school but thats a private decision to be made be families not the government.


In my case both myself and my wife are college educated and between us can teach our kids several foreign languages (Korean, Spanish, Irish) and several instruments (French Horn, Trumpet, Cello). My wifes background is in the humanities and mine in the hard sciences so the 'My wife and I are not qualified (which you keep inferring) is, as you say, out the door.

I have nothing against Cali setting up some sort of certification but what they are asking now is too much.

--

You can keep asking the same question over and over again and the answer still comes back...

Nothing, We will home school so I and my wife can better know our kids

[MichaelHarris]

145. keep telling yourself that

someday you may even believe it. Look at your screen name, what does it tell you? It tells me about a man who is so overprotective of his children he won't let them attend public school. You mentioned earlier all of the social things for your kids to do. Did you realize those are all things YOU can control. The one place YOU have no control is public schools. I'll ask one last time, what are you protecting your kids from? Your screen name makes this way too easy.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

146. LOL

I forgot the 'screen name defense'....

I have a 2yo and a 1yo girl, and I call them Angels oh yea its *really* rare parents of young kids have such nick names for their kids... For someone who thinks parents at home dont do a good job teaching their kids you might want to advocate for your cause with deductive reasoning skills greater than that of a 3rd grader...

As to 'controlling' You don't think some parents 'control' their kids school by moving to a good district or sending them to a private school? Public school/private school/home school the *best* chance for a kids to get a good education is to have a care giver (parent/grandparent/...) in their life who is *deeply* involved in the process..

My sister is a social worker and has clients who don't even know what school their kids go to, just where they drop them off for the bus. Cant name their kids teachers or their last set of grades... Guess (according to your arguments above) those are the ultimate well adjusted parents..

It might be germane for me to point out that recently my wife went through an illness that prevented her from caring for our girls and in that time I put them into day care *gasp, the horrer*. She is recovering now and my youngest is home, he sister should be coming home this summer when she (my wife) is fully recovered.

Dude it aint about fear, I went through public schools straight up through university I have nothing to fear from them..

[MichaelHarris]

149. you fear something

so much you are denying a life among their peers. Well the ones you can't control, do you also pick their friends?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

150. Let see..

I send them to daycare so... No I dont..

[MichaelHarris]

151. you're funny

keep pulling your children so close that they never know what growing up really is. Maybe you can find them a bubble to live in and you can tether it around with you.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

153. Can I play too captain hyperbole?

umm.... Let me try..

I think Ill take parenting advice from someone who does not throw their kids in a pit with wolves every day and cares not for what happens for a third of their day?

Homeschool kids do just fine when they go away to college (as well as any other group) unless you actual evidence to back up your obvious bias and ignorance you can just keep repeating the same baseless assertions..

[MichaelHarris]

154. "throw their kids in a pit with wolves"

who are these wolves? What color are they? Do they listen to hip-hop? This was way too easy, next...

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

155. Wow

You're actually thick enough to have required a sarc tag... who would have thunk...

The wolves were, sarcastically speaking, literally Canis Lupis or were you unaware of what Hyperbole meant?

[MichaelHarris]

162. hahahahahahaha

hahahahahahaha, I love the way you never answer the question. How long have we been at it? Good luck with your kids though, you're gonna need it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

163. I have answered it many times

It just dont jive with your preconceived notions about home schoolers..

[MichaelHarris]

179. My wife wants to spend more time with the kids

is not an answer, it's an excuse. You and the other "child protectors" are the one's without a clue. You want them to grow under your care and protection so bad that are willing to deny them a life outside the home where you have no control. Sure, you mentioned a few organizations but those are places where you have hand chosen the friends, you have control. The one place you have absolutely no control is public education. You choose to abandon that which you cannot control. Step back, take a look. You have hand chosen every aspect of their life, nothing get in that you don't want in, that is fear.

Instead of getting involved and working to better a system you and others like you choose to run and hide. You are no better than those who run to the hills and hoard guns, that is why we compare you to right-wing nuts. I won't waste my time responding the the other person who replied to our discussion, they chose to "run and hide" while we had it in the same way they educate their children. They chose to teach the children, "If you don't want to fix something, abandon it, and start your own way". Run, hide.

It's a pity you could never answer the root question, what are you protecting your kids from? You want us to believe you chose to abandon a system that has turned out scholars, doctors, statesmen and women for ages because your wife wanted more time with the kids? No, my friend I won't accept that and it's a shame you did. The one or two examples of home-schooled scholars is meaningless, how many come from the public school each year? Run from everything you know, teach your children the same thing. Stronger and wiser children are being educated every day by men and women trained to do so and love it. Low pay, poor conditions don't hamper them in any way. Instead of working with a system to better the quality of what they teach you chose to run. Yes, you are afraid of something, yes you will never admit it, and yes, you are the problem. Democrat, Republican, left-wing or right, you are doing the public schools a disservice, you are doing your children a disservice. Ask yourself then, "What am I afraid of?". The answers may surprise even you.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

173. sorry, man, but you are arguing

with someone who has no chance of winning and no desire to learn...just give it up, man...MH has no clue and will not take one if handed to him...

admirable effort, but way past time to give up...

sP

[MichaelHarris]

180. see above

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

181. Yea Im seeing that...

'who cares what you think' I really know why youre doing it..

[treestar]

129. But some of the parents doing it are

probably white and probably doing it because there a nonwhite kids in the public schools.

It doesn't mean all of them are - some of the genuinely think the public schools don't do a good job. Still it doesn't mean there aren't those with unsavory motives.

[Bennyboy]

32. My step son was homeschooled (independent study)

And it had to be the biggest joke in the history of education. He could not behave in school so my wife decided to home school the kid. She not once sat down and taught him anything. He had a "teacher" come by twice a month to go over his assignments. Those assignments constituted about an hour's worth of work every two weeks. It was a fucking joke.

I would like to tell you that this is the not the norm, but he had most of his friends that were homeschooled. They sat around my house all day and played video games and created crime. I almost got shot due to this.

None of them had a girlfriend. None of them went to dances, the prom, took part in sports. They were all the most maladjusted kids I have ever seen. They were very good at video games however.

For my wife and the other kids parents, homeschooling was a way to get out of the problems of having a teenager. If there is no work, then you don't have to hassle them about doing it. If there is no school or authority, then there is no reason to flaunt it. If there are no rules, then it is so much easier.

For my wife it was all about abdicating the responsibility of parenting.

After the kids all graduated I gave them a little test. None of them could operate a phone book. None of them could name five American authors. None of them read a book while in "homeschool". None of them could name the branches of Gov't. They were complete idiots.

Every year in Sept we would have the same fight, the kid goes to school. Every year my wife would win out. Finally, when he turned nineteen and never had a job, I left. Thank god I don't have that cross to bear any more. He is now 22 and still living with his mother and her new husband who will undoubtedly tire of him not working and playing video games all day long.

Now my ex-wife is a very educated woman with a high ranking job with the State Of California. I at the time had a contracting company. Where was the time to school this kid going to come from?

I think is maybe even more important to see that there is a parent home all day than being credentialed. My wife could have been credentialed in no time with her degree so that still would not have been the problem. But when you work all day, it is impossible to try to teach your children.

I have to add, that this ws one year before exit testing so....

[readmoreoften]

35. What a nightmare.

I've seen some good homeschooled kids, but the majority I've seen are totally maladjusted. I agree, if you get into a home school arrangement--you need to, you know--teach your kid. And people should have some kind of degree comparable to a teaching degree. At least a bachelors with a certain number of hours in the liberal arts and sciences.

[Horse with no Name]

49. Maladjustment sometimes isn't the word

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030908dnmetcaffeykillings.3a53d16.html

>>>snip

Why, as alleged in court documents, did a 16-year-old girl known for tearful, sweet alto church solos help conceive and carry out a hellish plot to massacre her family and torch her home? Did darkness infect and rot out her heart? Did she sit in the silver Dodge Neon listening to the gunfire and screams?

And later, as fire crews recovered the charred remains of her mother and two young brothers, did the angelic girl with blond hair and a radiant smile lie down in a raggedy blue trailer and have sex with one of the confessed killers?

The questions defy easy answers.

Police said she wanted her parents dead because they wanted her to break up with her boyfriend.

>>>snip
The children were home-schooled until last fall, when they enrolled in school. That's where the Caffeys'16-year-old daughter, a freshman, met Mr. Wilkinson, a 19-year-old senior.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

67. Should we site the columbine kids as an example of why public schools are broken?

[elizfeelinggreat]

71. exactly! and there are many!

Should we site the columbine kids as an example of why public schools are broken?

I don't know why people don't understand this - you cannot give one horrible example and broad brush the whole population unless you are going to allow the same behavior going the other way. And yes, there are plenty of horrible examples in public school and they know it.

[The Minus World]

46. Unbelievable.

Similarly, my girlfriend's mother decided to pull her 10-year old daughter out of school for a year of homeschooling. This woman is a professor of communications at a local community college, so she is by no means an uneducated lout.

Long story short, most of their time was spent vacationing. Any education that actually did occur happened on a "I don't wanna"/"Well, okay" basis. The daughter developed terrible habits like staying up until 1 or 2am online. When she finally made it back to public school, she was overwhelmed with how far ahead other kids were, and developed an inferiority complex. It's been a year now and the poor girl is still recovering from that gaping rift in her education.

These are all anecdotes, though. The readers' mileage may vary.

[Marr]

69. Almost the exact same thing happened with my brother.

He learned early that if he'd whine and cry long enough each morning, my parents would let him stay home from school. They just didn't care enough to force the issue. Eventually this morphed into homeschooling. He learned precisely nothing; his "education" amounted to a packet of papers he'd turn in once a month. I read through one of them and it was a joke-- I could've done it in 15 minutes.

My little brother is 10 years younger than I am, and this was starting just as I was preparing to move away to attend college. I knew there wasn't going to be anyone around to school that kid, and complained to my parents repeatedly. They just didn't give a shit.

Anyway, his total lack of an education is bad enough-- he can barely read, barely handle basic arithmetic, knows nothing of history or government, etc.-- but just as bad is his lack of socialization. The only friends he had growing up were kids like himself, who were staying home all day because their parents didn't give a damn either way. They got in all kinds of trouble with drugs and alcohol.

Now he's 28, still living at home, and unemployed.

[Bennyboy]

82. What is funny, but my wife had two other kids that went to School.....

one did poorly but managed to go to jr College, enter UC Santa Cruz and is now a PHD.

The other was a great student in HS, but had some serious mental issues and is now on permanent disability.

The thing is, with this one kid in particular, anything he did was okay by her. He stole from me evey day and my wife could only tell me to move my stuff. He got suspended from Jr High, and we had to take him to Hawaii becasue she said he could not behave for anyone else. He stole out of my suitcase in the first ten minutes of the trip. He stole my car at 14 and he was not punished. Even when he was punished it was always restriction. Restriction to his room with the TV, stereo and video games.

She decided to homeschool ths one after he brought home all F's on his report card in his first semester freshman year. She (rightly) got upset with him and he tackled her and started beating on her. The next day she decided to homeschool him.

[BearSquirrel2]

86. Dog Whisperer ...

Sounds like you should send her the Dog Whisperer episode of South Park ;-)

[October]

85. Well

I home school my son.

We're not religious. We follow a rigorous curriculum. I am not a certified teacher.

He's become an avid reader. He chose to read all 7 Harry Potter books this past summer, which I thought was pretty impressive for a boy who just turned 10.

His favorite subjects are History and Science. He balks at writing, but does it. He's slower at math, but I take a lot of time with him.

I can show you a stack of his work from the time he attended public school, and a stack of work he's done whilst being home schooled. He was worksheeted to death in our public school system.

He tests at proficient or advanced on standardized tests mandated by the state.

And, my son knows the difference between a primary and general election.

You should hear the parents in our (affluent) district complain about how their kids in the school are allowed to pass without doing the work. I just attended a meeting at our local library and was floored by the comments.

And, I guess you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but of course you could do your brother's work in 15 minutes since he's 10 years younger than you.

[Bennyboy]

102. Lot's of parents do well when Homeschooling their kids..>BUT

Like my example it just an easy way out for a lot of parents. Like most Gov't oversight, they compromise so much that when they do get at a problem, it is usually very ineffective. Like I said before, for me it is not all about the credentialing, it is about the the time the parent is willing to spend on the child's education.

[Jennicut]

48. I would have given anything to have been home schooled

I hated and detested high school. Most of the kids were immature and only cared about who was dating who and when the next party was. Meanwhile, I was watching CNN (no MSNBC back in the early 90's) and debating my parents about foreign policy and ecomnomics. I was really shy and hated big crowds and actually begged my mother to just get me a private tutor so I didn't have to go to school anymore but it was too exspenisve. As far as being maladjusted goes, maybe there are just some kids who are not meant to go a normal school and the social aspect is too overwhelming and they need to grow up in their own way and on their own terms. High school sucked. College was better but I still felt the overwhelming need to run back to my dorm room when class was over. I still don't like crowds but I don't feel like I'm going to throw up anymore when I'm in one.

[rebecca_herman]

109. I know how you feel

I was homeschooled for high school. I had bad social anxiety with people my age starting when I was a preteen. Middle school was hell for me. I had no friends, I was so depressed and I just wanted to cry the whole time I was there because the environment made me feel sick. The school couldn't handle a kid like that so my parents homeschooled me until college. I did fine academically. Socially - well, I was told I was quite charming by adults, I actually got a lot of babysitting jobs since I always finished my work early and had free time, learned to take care of little kids and interact with them - but I'm 22 now, did the 2 year degree at college, and I still feel nervous around people my own age and hate to socialize, I hate parties and crowds... maybe that's just who I am, but a school environment was not good for me at that time in my life and hurting my mental health and I'm glad my parents could see it and had the option to help me by removing me from that environment.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

52. The way I understand it, if you're homeschooling your children...

...you have to have teaching credentials. There are a lot of homeschoolers who are not taught up to standards, their grades are fraudulent and they don't know shit. And then they go off to Christian universities and get degrees they don't deserve. It's a pattern.
Duckie

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

60. Perhaps

If its a pattern and not some made up bullcrap you can cite something to that effect... I can cite homeschool kids doing better on the SAT and ACT..

[Junkdrawer]

75. "It's impossible to determine from the small number of homeschool students taking the SAT"...

...

The state won't say how many homeschoolers take the test, let alone release their scores. A department spokeswoman said the confidentiality is not particular to homeschoolers; all raw student scores are confidential. She said the department does not release summary data because the numbers of students taking the test are too small.

The College Board won't release its SAT homeschool data because it said the numbers would be misleading: It's impossible to determine from the small number of homeschool students taking the SAT if it is a representative sample of all homeschoolers.

Homeschooler ACT scores are above average, but the ACT cautions against relying on the data for the same reasons cited by the College Board.

Studies that show homeschoolers outperform their peers generally come from homeschool advocates.

....


http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/26/Worldandnation/Homeschooling__It_s_n.shtml

[BearSquirrel2]

83. You cite nothing ...

You cited nothing (hyperlink please), you made claims.

[iamthebandfanman]

57. good

i have faith in the public school system and want to put money into....
unlike others apparently.

i really feel for those of u who can afford to keep ur children home all day though, must be nice.

[TalkingDog]

61. Your 2 cents turned out well for your grandkids.

I've seen the results of barely literate high school graduates attempts at teaching their kids. Trust me- two rongs ain't makin' no write.

And to be fair I've seen dedicated parents who kids learn "differently" or at a different pace than other kids. I am a huge supporter of homeschooling: AS LONG AS THE PARENTS ARE QUALIFIED. We make claims that we expect our public school teachers to know their subject, be able to read, write and cipher. Why can't we hold home teachers to those same expectations?

Coming from an area where homeschoolers are just as likely to be Bible thumping fundies as considerate parents, I think this is a GREAT idea.

[Bandit]

63. A lot of substitute teachers do not have teacher's credentials

Will make it a lot harder to find substitutes.

[BearSquirrel2]

87. A sub is not a teacher ...

A sub is effectively there to hand out worksheets and collect them. A sub is there to make sure the kids don't go wandering out into the hallway and things don't get out of hand.

When I subbed, I occasionally managed to teach. But unless you happen to get into a lesson by chance that you have some real insight on, you are out of luck.

[Junkdrawer]

68. NO..they're just trying to stop the nightmare described in Post #32...n/t

[elizfeelinggreat]

72. there are better ways n/t

Public education needs plenty of improvement too and it affects a greater number of children.

[elizfeelinggreat]

76. Private Schools

Are not regulated to the same standards as public schools.

I wonder why they aren't being scrutinized in the same way?

[lumpy]

77. Fascist governments control education as well as all other

social workings.

[NancyG]

78. My husband and I disagree about this...

I have a masters in education and taught in the 70s.

He knew a lot of commune kids and other friends that had great homeschooling.

I think there needs to be some standards, at least a degree.

He thinks it's to teach children to think like the state wants them to, and it's against the Bill of Rights. I probably don't have that exactly right.

I think there have to be rules that work for letting intelligent parents teach while keeping out the noneducated, and fundies from indoctrinating their religion.

[elizfeelinggreat]

89. Isn't the rub that

not everyone agrees on what defines intelligence?

(or the wrong religion for that matter)

[goodinuf]

101. train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation

This is the quote in the San Francisco Chronicle article that bothered me:

Justice H. Walter Croskey said in the 3-0 ruling issued on Feb. 28. "Parents have a legal duty to see to their children's schooling under the provisions of these laws."
Parents can be criminally prosecuted for failing to comply, Croskey said.

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

This after a Quaker woman was fired and rehired because she modified the California Loyalty oath:

Each time, when asked to "swear (or affirm)" that she would "support and defend" the U.S. and state Constitutions "against all enemies, foreign and domestic," Kearney-Brown inserted revisions: She wrote "nonviolently" in front of the word "support," crossed out "swear," and circled "affirm." All were to conform with her Quaker beliefs, she said.

I don't want all children to be trained to be "mindlessly" loyal to the state.

[LWolf]

90. I have to point out

that your "two cents" simply points up the justification for requiring that teachers be certified. While there are some parents that are able to provide a positive education through home schooling, that is not true for all. The only way to make sure that all children have equal access to education is to make sure that they have qualified teachers. Not all home-schooled children are taught by your grandchildren's parents.

I'm a teacher certified in two states, one of them California. I could do a much better job educating kids, at least through middle school, at home than in my own public school classroom. That's not a reflection on the teacher, but on the factory model that structures public schools. Drop class sizes to 15 or less, make classroom bigger and more comfortable, and the daily schedule and curriculum more flexible, and you'd see really different results in public school classrooms as well.

If public schools were learning centers rather than curriculum factories, we'd all be better off. I'll be watching this particular ruling play out with interest. If I were a home-schooling parent, I would start advocating that public schools provide the positive benefits of home-schooling, if that option is no longer "on the table:" small class size, comfortable settings, flexible schedules and curriculum. It's an opportunity to work to bring the benefits of home schooling to the rest of the nation's students.

[EFerrari]

103. LWolf, in your opinion, if a parent had a CBEST (emergeny credential)

here in CA, would that work? I'm trying to figure out what this means in practical terms for parents.

I took the CBEST long ago although I've never used it. The test itself was a good test of basic skills unlike so many tests of that kind. Imho, parents who want to home school should be able to pass it.

What do you think?

[LWolf]

105. The CBEST:

It's used to make sure that any substitute has minimal academic competency, and it's used to make sure that any college student entering a credential program has the same. An emergency credential is for when a district can't find a fully credentialed teacher to fill an opening, usually issued to someone who is in the process of finishing a credential.

The skill levels it tests are about 8th grade level.

That is not a bad compromise for parents who would homeschool elementary students. The subject matter expertise for more advanced studies is not covered by the CBEST.

There is a big difference in knowing enough about something to pass a test, and enough to effectively teach it, especially in math and language.

I think the best solution has several pieces: first of all, restructure public schools away from the factory model; that addresses many of the dysfunctions that cause parents to choose homeschools to begin with.

For those who still want to homeschool, provide a state-approved curriculum and course of study, and credentialed teachers to help parents and meet with families on a regular basis. Design a multi-faceted way for home-schooled students to demonstrate mastery of required curriculum.

[EFerrari]

107. I did teach, but at the college level so, never needed the CBEST.

And it's funny because teaching seems to me mostly a separate skill than topic mastery. Hmmm.

Is it the case that school districts aren't collaborating with homeschooling parents because those parents represent a loss of revenue? You'd think that putting together a standard curriculum with midterm and final testing wouldn't be so very difficult.

In all honesty, I would never want homeschooling for my kids. They gained so much by going out into the community and by dealing with other supportive adults from an early age. I could never have provided that experience for them. :shrug:

[LWolf]

111. Funding is certainly an element.

Schools are funded by ADA: "average daily attendance." Districts have to base their yearly budget on projected attendance levels. There is no funding for students that don't attend school. As is is, ADA guarantees that states never have to fully fund classrooms. Schools stay open, pay staff, use utilities, etc., every school day whether or not some people are absent. If attendance drops below the districts projection, which is usually done in July when the state releases the next year's budget, it amounts to a budget cut.

There's already not enough in the budget to provide adequate class sizes, support staff, and resources for the students who attend school, let alone those that have no affiliation with public schools. Different states fund things differently, of course. If the state chose to fund the development and administration of a homeschool curriculum, and the teachers to support it, you'd see it happening.

Homeschooling can't, of course, offer experience socially and intellectually with the broader world. Some homeschooling parents make sure their children are exposed to the larger world. Some homeschool because they don't want them exposed to those different from themselves.

[elizfeelinggreat]

119. I'm reading this with interest

I'm very interested in sfexpat2000's and your opinion on why these same concerns aren't raised by the public concerning private schools.

[LWolf]

122. I have the same concerns.

I always have. There are some great private schools, but they, by their very nature, do not provide access to that great education to all. There are some really awful private schools, who exist to prevent their students from being exposed to people, to ideas, to thinking, to cultures and mores different from that at home.

I want every single person to have equal access to a high quality education. "Equal access" means public education, to me. "High quality" would mean moving away from the factory model that the current public education system is based on.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the same teacher requirements be applied to private schools as to public schools. Some private schools already require that their teachers be licensed. That would create a difficulty for many private schools, though, who do not require that teachers be licensed, and that don't pay their teachers the same salary they could earn in public education.

[elizfeelinggreat]

130. Every student should have a high quality education

Thanks for your answer, I am in total agreement that every student deserves a good education (and good health care and a roof over their head and adequate nutrition ... )I just don't believe the government is the best judge of what that is anymore. I would caution anyone from making knee jerk reactions about why someone chooses to homeschool their child, I don't believe religion is the most often cited reason anymore.

It seems to me that we've really lost our way in public education - my family has moved through four different states and I have always been involved at their schools. Our experiences varied widely from state to state, there were enormous variations and when it comes to this subject most people (naturally) only consider their personal experience. Such as your opinion that private schools cannot provide a quality education by their nature (Are you referring to strictly religious schools or are you saying that children need to conform to equal standards to achieve that quality?)

While we focus our attention on the problem with low test scores, NCLB and homeschooling we ignore the other end of the spectrum. As I read your post I thought it would be interesting to turn your "equal access" requirement in the direction of those elite private schools. The class war starts right there, doesn't it? And just imagine if those children had to pass the same tests, how would their curriculum change and what effect would that have on the quality of education there ...

[LWolf]

136. "government" vs "political"

I think the only way to guarantee equal access to high quality education is to keep it public. That means funded by the government. The sticking point is when public ed becomes a political tool for other agendas. Generally, the ruling class has a vested interest in ensuring that public education be as ineffective as possible; that's how they maintain the socio-economic divides.

Educators don't support NCLB. That's a political tool. For many years now, I've thought that I would like to see some broad national standards created by educators, not political bodies or politicians, national teacher certification (yes, there is such a thing, but it is in ADDITION to all of the hoops we jump through for each separate state; not a single certification process,) and national standards for things like class size, libraries, and support services. Equal funding for all across the state, and everything else under local control. Not the elected school board, but the school site council: a group of parents and educators at the school site who make all the decisions. Put the decision-making into the hands of the stakeholders, and make it the admins' job to facilitate those decisions.

[elizfeelinggreat]

141. Are you saying all private schools should be closed?

[LWolf]

144. I don't know.

I've never really thought about it in those terms. I'm saying that public education ought to be funded and supported so that they offer the best education available in the nation.

That leaves the only reason to attend a private school one of economic, cultural, or religious bigotry. Private schools exclude. Public schools include. I think education ought to be inclusive.

It's a fine line, that line between parental rights and the rights of minors. I don't feel prepared to draw it in the sand at this point.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

158. Im sorry

"While there are some parents that are able to provide a positive education through home schooling, that is not true for all"

And you think *ALL* certified teachers are able to provide a positive education? Seriously why then are our schools having so many issues?

[treestar]

164. No, but in general the teachers are likely to do a better job

They specialize in the area, anyway.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

172. Any thing to back that up?

[treestar]

176. Most of them are reasonably successful

Or they could lose their job.

There are also more of them, so if in your 12 years you get a bad one, it had less effect. With your parents, you may draw a very good card, but have the risk of a very bad one, too.

The Education Departments of the various universities exist for a reason. I wouldn't assume that they are useless and that their graduates don't know more about teaching than those who did not graduate from them.

Home schooling may be a right, it may work out, but many of those students are missing something and might be able to have done better had they been educated by those who have learned how to educate. The only advantage to having a parent teach you is that you get the one on one attention. But then you miss out on questions other students bring up and on getting the varied view of the world that you would get from exposure to nonfamily adults, like the many teachers you have throughout your years in school.

[truedelphi]

161. Counties across the state are being forced to solve the state of CA's

14 billion dollar budget crisis by pink slipping their teachers, the janitors, and the aides.

I don't think we are going to see fifteen kids in a classroom any time soon.

[cseper]

94. Just wonder ing.....

Do home-schoolers ever fail?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

159. Of course some do

Do public school kids ever fail?

Whats your point?

[AnaA]

116. There shouldn't be such a law

Home schooled children in my area usually do better than the average student during the elementary and middle school years, especially.

[bamacrat]

118. Good idea should be made into law everywhere.

Home schooled kids are the weirdest people, they are sometimes smart but always weird. Socially stunted, and many times radically religious, it's not a good idea in my opinion. But thats just me.

[LeftyMom]

125. Yes, we must have the state step in to stop weirdness immediately.

:eyes:

[treestar]

126. I've just been looking into this and am not sure this conclusion should be drawn

It appears in Cal. you can homeschool if you file a private school certificate. But you don't have to have a teaching certificate. This is generally the case with private schools - they can hire whoever they want.

http://www.hslda.org/laws/analysis/California.pdf

Looking at the case, it seems that the parent tried enrolling the child in a private school and then just keeping her home, avoiding the filing of the certificate. Homeschooling is allowed, you just have to file the certificate. There's no need to try to hide it by enrolling the child in a private school and thus trying to "fool" the state into thinking the child is attending the private school.

[elizfeelinggreat]

133. this article is confusing

I guess it depends on whether the judge meant the state teaching credentials when he said "or" and if he meant it that way he might be bringing all private schools in California into the argument. What an interesting twist.

"may be taught only by credentialed teachers in public or private schools - or at home by Mom and Dad, but only if they have a teaching degree. Citing state law that goes back to the early 1950s, Croskey declared that "California courts have held that under provisions in the Education Code, parents do not have a constitutional right to home school their children." Furthermore, the judge wrote, if instructors teach without credentials they will be subject to criminal action."

I found this on a search:

California Private School Requirements

Education Code sections §48222, §48415, §33190, §51210 and §51220 set the criteria for a private school. The following legal requirements apply to all private schools regardless of size:

1. The administrator of every private school must file an affidavit with the Superintendent of Public Instruction between October 1st and October 15th of each year.
2. Private school instructors must be "capable of teaching." There is, however, no requirement in the CA Education Code that mandates that teachers in a private school setting hold a state teaching credential or have the equivalent training.
3. The names and addresses, including city and street, of the faculty must be kept on file, as must a record of the educational qualifications of each instructor.
4. Instruction must be in English.
5. Instruction must be offered "in the several branches of study required to be taught in the public schools." The materials and methods you use to teach these areas are up to you. Subjects required are as follows:
* Grades 1-6: English, math, social sciences, science, fine arts, health and phys ed.
* Grades 7-12: All that is included in the above plus: foreign language, applied arts, vocational ed and drivers ed.

[treestar]

135. This may well be turned over on appeal to the Cal. Supreme Court

The judge in the appeal court is wrong if he thinks that a teaching credential is required in a private school or homeschool.

[truedelphi]

160. Here's some irony - after the teaching staffs at many

Many schools across the state are being pink slipped - we re told we cannot home school the kids.

I would have done this except that I had to work. But I think home schooling is a fabulous option.

[treestar]

165. This country is so strange

I never hear of this in others.

Children go to school. That is normal. Only here would there be people doing this. What is their point? That they don't agree with this society and its ways?

[Stanley Nickels]

185. Apply your logic to other issues

Lots of progressive ideas go against "society and its ways". Are we to simply follow the herd and put our kids back into public schools because that is what is normal?

And for the record - my kids do go to school. At my home.

[sarcasmo]

166. Taking away more parents rights, land of the free my A$$.

[Snarkturian Clone]

167. I don't live in CA but

if and when I have kids I'm sure as hell homeschooling them.

Both my wife and I are certified teachers, BTW.

[WinkyDink]

170. Laws can't be based on anecdotes. Plenty more children are not taught well, I'd bet.

[Stanley Nickels]

174. Lack of knowledge about homeschooling

A large number of the posters seem to think that homeschooling parents are locking the kids in the house K-12 and this is just not true. The common argument seems to be that parents are not smart or educated enough to teach all subjects through high-school. There are lots of options out there for homeschoolers especially as they get to the high school level.

1. Many homeschoolers participate in local co-ops that provide informal or formal classes taught by parents or tutors. If you suck at math you might join a co-op where there is a strong math teacher. If you are good a science you might teach the science class and so on.
2. University model private schools are popular with homeschoolers - allowing your child to take classes piecemeal. They offer all traditional subjects taught by teachers who specialize in that subject and you can take one class or more as the parent sees fit.
3. Tutors - many homeschoolers use tutors to supplement their teaching when the subject matter gets more complex or beyond the parent.

Of course there are others as well but these are a few of the popular ones we see in our area.

[Blue_In_AK]

178. When I was a kid...

home schooling was called "truancy." I've never been a fan.

[Stanley Nickels]

186. When I was a kid...

a lot of things were different - civil rights have changed, the environment has changed, views on LGBT have changed...

things change - and most people nowadays have seen that there are other options to turning your kids over to the public schools and crossing their fingers that they will turn out OK.

[Blue_In_AK]

187. I know .... I was sort of kidding.

I should have used the sarcasm smilie, although personally I do think there is much more to be gained by having kids attend public schools and mingle with different sorts of people than keeping them cloistered at home. But that's just me, and, of course, people are free to do whatever they want.

[Stanley Nickels]

189. My bad then

Apologies for my bluntness. I agree with you that one of the dangers of homeschooling is lack of exposure and many homeschooling parents do this on purpose. My wife and I make a concerted effort to get our kids out in the community be it volunteering at the local charity, our church, scouts, sports or co-op groups. Although living in a small Texas town hardly presents many opportunities for diversity - we typically have to travel up to Dallas or Ft. Worth to find activities or programs that are not 100% caucasian...

[benEzra]

182. Our first choice was public school, but after the school REFUSED to educate our son...

due to his extensive medical challenges (yes, that's illegal as heck, but their attitude at the IEP's was basically "we don't want to pay for in-classroom help, so shell out more than your net worth for a lawyer, fight us for a year or so, and then maybe we'll consider teaching him"). It seems that standardized test scores of special-needs kids simply don't count on the "No Child Left Behind" smoke and mirrors, so they were going to just pass him along without teaching him until he was promoted out of their hair, thereby avoiding the expenditure of time and $$$ that would be required in order to to educate him. Meanwhile, his younger sister (socially very well adjusted and popular at school) developed stress-related gastroesophageal reflux in KINDERGARTEN from being worked so hard in school and then having to come home to two or three hours of mindless busy work at night; she was just exhausted.

Both my wife and I have B.A.'s and I've done some master's work. So we felt competent to homeschool, and eventually were forced to the realization that it was our only realistic option, since we can't afford a good private school.

The result? My daughter (now in first grade) is now reading beyond a fourth grade level and will be taking the state standardized test in a couple months, which I expect she'll blow the top off of; she also just started Latin. My son, who the school was warehousing and teaching nothing, is now reading beyond grade level and working math at or above grade. They're also studying science, history, grammar, literature, and art while the local public school kids are studying "family," "obeying authority," and being force-fed NCLB answer keys in lieu of real knowledge.

Would my wife and I love to get teaching certificates? Sure! If you critics of our choice would be so kind as to shell out the $200,000 or so that would be required to allow me to quit my job and my wife and I to go back to school to be certified in the latest juvenile crowd-control techniques and No Child Left Behind checklists, while simultaneously paying for our son's ongoing medical care, paying someone else to take him to all his therapies and extracurricular activities, and paying a tutor in the meantime (since the public schools won't bother educating him), we'd be glad to. But since you probably won't lift a finger to help us, we'll just keep doing what we're doing, thanks.

BTW, a LOT of parents of special-needs kids homeschool, with far greater success than the big-classroom setting. I dare say that most people who homeschool aren't fundies, though you'd never know it from listening to the critics. DU has its own homeschooling support group, BTW:

Democratic Underground Homeschooling Group (and since that is a DU Group, be aware that no trolling, flamebaiting, or debating the merits of homeschooling is allowed in there, per DU rules).

[LanternWaste]

188. Requiring certification is the same as criminalizing?

Requiring certification is the same as criminalizing?

I've always been of the mind that all the tools are there for a fine, fulfilling education in the public school systems-- if and only if the student decides to take direct advantage of them.

Although, I have no idea if home schooling offers those same (or parallel) tools also.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

190. You can abuse laws to make thing illegal without makine them criminal

To take something which is legal and make it so difficult to do that you are basically outlawing it.

For instance, lets say I passed a law in NY that said you can not smoke withing 100 yards (in any direction) of a person or public park. I basically just made smoking illegal in Manhattan (and most of NY for that matter) without actually making smoking illegal...

Here in cali they are asking parents to do 4 years of education, a year of internship, and a rather complex certification procedure to home school their kids. This is, in effect, taking 99% of home schoolers and putting it out of there range. (most folks can not afford to go back to school and have day care while they are there).

Something reasonable to do (still to much IMHO but we should be a people who compromise) would be to create a special certification which would take up to six months to get and be affordable. (state could offer classes at night to help out families or just have an exam for people who are good book learners).

An even better compromise would have been to look at results, make the kids take the state exams for reading, writing, and math. I would say science and history but people may have a good reason to teach that in a different order to their kids so maybe just make them take a cumulative exam in those every 3-5 years.

[LanternWaste]

191. Much like selling food for public consumption?

"to take something which is legal and make it so difficult to do that you are basically outlawing it."

Much like selling food for public consumption? I'm certainly not allowed to do that unless I pass some pretty stringent public ordnances and codes. And to honest, I'm perfectly happy with that-- it prevents me from finding out after the fact that the food may be unhygienic (at best), or contaminated (at worst).

Or requiring certification (a drivers license) proving that an individual has met certain minimum standards before we as a community allow him/her on the road.

And I don't see any of that as an abuse of existing laws...




While I agree that five years of college may be too difficult for many parents to manage, I do believe (like yourself) that an affordable certification program should be available, and therein lies the crux...

The only difference I see in the extremes here is one of degrees. I haven't read any posts that postulate there should be zero standards, nor have I read any posts which read that a Master's should be required.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

194. Wow... that went right over your head.. You win bad analogy of the day

"Much like selling food for public consumption?"

To start a business selling food... If you had to go through the same certifications that restaurants have to go through to serve food to your kids that might be overboard right? These parents are not staring a private school and selling education they are serving their family

"Or requiring certification (a drivers license) proving that an individual has met certain minimum standards before we as a community allow him/her on the road."

There are different licenses for professional vs private drivers with different standards and test right?

---

My initial point was, and it stands, you can make something illegal without making it criminal

Here is another example: Lets say that a state passed a law that in order to have an abortion you had to see a 3d sonigram, take a parenting class and pick out a name for the death certificate... people would go bat-shit crazy with anger.. why? its not like abortion is illegal but it has been made *very* difficult to obtain..

[LanternWaste]

195. Then by definition, it's not criminal.

"you can make something illegal without making it criminal"

Then by definition, it's not criminal.

While it may be difficult to achieve within the given framework, as long as that framework is adhered to, it is not criminal.

Do you believe that there should be zero standards set in place for home schooling? That's my point.

Om Edit: Even if it's not a public commodity and used only in the household, I also believe that particular minimum qualifications should be met prior to performing surgery on a young child.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

196. Actually I do think there should be no standards on homeschooling

I think the govt should stay out of peoples homes *period* unless a crime is being committed (but you yourself say its not a crime to home school). I think the government using regulatory powers to invade the privacy of families is bad..

Now, that being said, I do think there is room for compromise on this but it has to be a reasonable one.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

197. Of course by definition its not criminal

But they have made it criminal in practice. This should concern people who care about rights and liberties because if we allow the govt to make some thinks illegal, if only in practice, nothing will stop them from stepping on other rights..

[Bridget Burke]

192. That requirement is the law--an old law!

Perhaps it does need to be changed. The case is being appealed; that's how we change laws.

But "criminalized" sounds much more dramatic! Especially to those who think any regulation of home schooling is a bad idea. As they point out that home schooled kids get good grades on standardized tests. Or that standardized tests are EVIL!

Or that the Shift Key is evil....

[LanternWaste]

193. Pretty much my point....

"But "criminalized" sounds much more dramatic!"

Pretty much my point. It's possible (even preferable) to examine a position (regardless of where one may stand on it), and exchange ideas that may even sound radical to one or both parties.

But once drama is exchanged for discourse, it becomes an exercise in frustration to continue the conversation.


(But! The Shift Key is evil-- it's in the Book of Leviticus) :evilgrin:

[Stanley Nickels]

199. You are correct

that this decision does nothing to criminalize homeschooling. This specific ruling simply rejected the parent's claims that they had a right to homeschool on religious grounds. The court said "no you do not" and sent the case back to the lower court to decide if the private tutoring company they were using meets the state standards for homeschooling. There are two separate issues at work here - the claim of religious exemption and the claim that the tutoring company merits exemption from public school attendance.

California Assemblymember Joel Anderson has already filed a resolution asking the state supreme court to overturn this ruling. I guess we will have to wait and see where this all leads. I guess it was the slightly sensational "parents do not have a constitutional right to homeschool" quote that got everyone fired up in the first place.

[kwolf68]

200. Home schoolers do better on SAT..

I do agree, a good home schooled kid CAN perform just as well (even better) than the average student taking the SAT.

However, I question the data. How many as a percentage actually take the test? To be sure, the 'elite' home schoolers take the tests. Do those kids being taught by rubes take the tests?

In public schools, it's not just the elite public school students taking the test, but students that are otherwise mediocre, or worse. Throw in countless athletes who can run through a brick wall, but can barely do simple algebra and you further skew the numbers down.

So in short, any statistic that shows home schooled kids 'do better' on the SAT or ACT has to be taken with a grain of salt due to the unique circumstances of each situation.

[Stanley Nickels]

201. very true

As a homeschooler I understand that all numbers regarding homeschooling (test scores, number of homeschoolers, etc.) are suspect. Only homeschool kids that voluntarily take the SAT and identify themselves as being homeschooled (not required in all states) count toward these numbers. And the total numbers of homeschoolers you hear for each state or nationwide are rough estimates / guesses at best. Nobody has ever called my house to see if we are homeschooling. Our kids have never been to a public school so basically nobody knows they exist to count as homeschoolers or anything else.

[Elspeth]

203. With thousands of CA teachers getting pink slips, they are going to make home schooling

not an option?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2995375&mesg_id=2995375