Listen up DU! What is the biggest threat to our democracy?

[cbayer]

Two opinions that are worth a read.

In my mind, the greatest threat to democracy right now is the impulse to confirm for people what they believe rather than challenge their preconceptions or tell them difficult truths. The more uncertain things become the more people tell you what you want to hear. We've left the age of persuasion, we've entered the age of confirmation. People don't listen to a argument and maybe change their mind anymore. They hear an argument and if it is not what they already believe in, they go somewhere else.

I think the greatest threat to democracy is having a public that thinks it is fully informed but is not really very well informed at all. Too often in this digital age we jump right into the debate without having the facts.

Transcribed a few answers from NOW (the PBS show) that I thought were the most pertinent tonight.

[blonndee]

1. Corporatized, for-profit media

Which your post actually seems to support. Do you agree?

[cbayer]

3. I am not sure i understand your question.

Actually, I am sure I do not understand your question.

Are you calling PBS corporative, for-profit media?

Seriously, I thought these were some great quotes about threats to our democracy.

Please explain.

[blonndee]

5. Not at all. PBS is what we need more of, IMO.

I mean, all those things you paraphrased from PBS seem to support the argument that corporate media is indeed the biggest threat to democracy in America.

[cbayer]

10. Ok, I see your point.

But what about personal responsibility.

If you allow the MSM to form your opinion for you, shame on you. If you allow DU to form your opinion for your, shame on you. (not you personally, just a generalization).

We have become a country of sheep and the sheep need to get a clue.

[blonndee]

17. I agree, but most people don't know better, and with education in the state it is in

(and I'm a teacher), how are people to KNOW that they should know better? You asked what the biggest threat was, and I offered my opinion on it. I don't think that "shame on you" will work for the general population, unfortunately, although I sometimes tend toward that as well, LOL.

Honestly, I think a "new media" is in order, and it MAY be emerging. It has to be huge, though, and not TOO faddish. I'm trying to get in on it, and I actually think that a big part of it may be very old-fashioned. But we'll see. :)

[cbayer]

21. You are right.

I watch and listen to publicly supported media and it feeds me what I believe to be the least biased of the news.

And your students are being fed the worst of the worst of MSM.

Hope you gave to NPR and PBS. :hi:

[Cant trust em]

39. We're inching towards the new media with the internet

It's the best way to democratize information. That being said, we need better televised news that is beamed into people's homes 24 hours a day. I love BBC and I wish we had something even remotely close to it.

[Cant trust em]

14. When news stops becoming a public service, we have a problem.

Media that is driven by the market won't ever give us the information we need. For profit media is like eating ice cream for dinner, but what we really need is a balanced meal.

[blonndee]

20. Thank you! You said it much better than I did

in my lazy post.

I like your analogy, too. :hi:

[cbayer]

22. Have you given to PBS and NPR?

We can't have it both ways.

And I am a semi-hypocrite in this area. I should give and give more.

[Cant trust em]

30. no, but I will.

thanks for the reminder. I don't typically hear a lot of appeals on NPR.

[Cant trust em]

53. How do you donate to NPR?

They don't seem to have an online donation machanism. Have you given a gift to them in the past?

[EFerrari]

2. Babies are not born with an impulse to conform.

That is a wholly learned behavior that corporate interests spend billions of dollars teaching us.

The corporate media is the most pernicious influence on what we call our democracy.

[cbayer]

6. I don't agree with your premise.

I think babies do nothing but conform.

As we grow, we hopefully develop the ability to discriminate and make decisions for ourselves.

The corporate media is expert at over-riding our ability to discriminate. And we should be fearful of their power. But where are we to get our information?

[EFerrari]

16. Then you haven't known many babies. n/t

[cbayer]

23. Well, I had three.

Not that that makes me an expert or anything.

but what I observed is that they followed my every move.....and thought....and emotion.

Until those horrible teen years, when they wanted to KILL ME!!!

Don't worry, we are all friends now.

[lonestarnot]

25. Are you absolutely certain that those were babies?

[cbayer]

29. Well, they did have red eyes and rotating heads.

But the doctor said it was fine. I asked him several times.

[dweller]

27. social conditioning

and those teen years? ... thinking for themselves again.

glad you are all friends now.
dp

[cbayer]

33. It hasn't been easy.

But I knew it wasn't me they hated, just the idea of me.

[dweller]

38. i tend to believe we are who we are less because of our parents

but more in spite of them.

In realizing what we don't have to become, we are able to forgive and move on. It's a teachable moment.
dp

[EFerrari]

49. Babies are not born with an impulse to conform.

They are born little or no sense of separation between themselves and everything else. They have to learn to be individual, separate and bounded. They watch you with the same curiosity that they watch their own hands.

Conforming is a very complicated goal and is learned much later.

[Skittles]

4. repukes n/t

[cbayer]

11. What? Please explain. nt.

[Skittles]

18. continued republican rule

honestly, if McCain becomes president I believe America is finished

[cbayer]

24. If McCain wins it will be because we have a population of imbeciles.

who can be led by fear and ignorance.

And that is the point of the post.

[Skittles]

41. I think it is a possiblity

I surely do hope the mind-numbing idiotic comments from Obama and HRC fans here on DU are no indication of the average voter!

[yourout]

7. Religous extremism.......be it Muslim, Christian, or Satanism.

Very dangerous stuff.

[mondo joe]

8. The marriage of religious extremists with corporate interests. NT

[dweller]

9. self-importance

will be the downfall of the human, regardless.
dp

[lpbk2713]

12. Apathy as regards corrupt public officials.

Bush and Cheney and their minions laugh in our faces over their blatant misuse of power and they just keep committing more crimes because they know no one will stop them.

[babylonsister]

13. The greatest threat to democracy is the media that is unwilling to tell

the truth. They follow whatever the idea of the day is, and people are less informed because of it.

Check out Joe Scarborough on Bill Maher on Friday, admitting that they fit the news to help the network. Also see this from Glenn Greenwald:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2976792

[cbayer]

19. Babylonsister, my friend (I hope)

The problem may really be the millions of Americans that can be so easily swayed and led by said media.

Making the MSM just tell it in a different way won't make Americans any more thoughtful or inquisitive, will it?

Just look at this board. People don't ask questions. They don't question information. To me, that is the real threat to democracy. A lazy and easily swayed electorate.

That's how we got what we have now.

[lonestarnot]

26. I don't agree.

Many questions are left unanswered, or not satisfactorily answered.

[cbayer]

34. Expand. nt.

[lonestarnot]

48. I often ask questions. Sometimes they are answered here, if people have time,

other times they are not or they are not answered satisfactorily. I know that is vague. Here is an example. Back in 2006 when the M3 was no longer reported, I was having a fit over it and people thought I was crazy. The answer was as clear as the nose on ones face. They didn't want us to know they were pumping enough cash into the system to sink the ship. People had opinions, but no one had the answer. The answer is now here, two years later. Sometimes time is the problem. All answers are revealed in due time. One just needs to be patient. One day we will know all things and it will not be because the media did or didn't tell us.

[spag68]

28. this with all it's faults is an educated, erudite and interesting

place, AS OPPOSED TO THE FREEPER BLOGS, THAT SEEM TO RUN ON PURE HATRED AND SPITE. If there is an opposite of logic it is found over there. Just remember the talking heads, even the good ones that we agree with are entertainers and when told to, will read the script or lose their job.

[cbayer]

32. Totally right and I am inspired by some of the conversations we have here.

I see people here that can think and change their minds and look at the information and digest it in an intellectual way.

And I feel inspired.

[babylonsister]

31. Making the m$m tell the truth would be a start.

Many of the people on this board have been here for years, including myself. We're informed and know what we've seen and heard, and are very skeptical.

How we got here now? Man, there are so many people who could respond better than I could, since I'm a relative newbie.

I just went and looked, but couldn't find, my first PM. It was from a DUer who explained PNAC to me. Do you know who was involved in that? Do you know what that is?

Lots of people shoot from the hip without any knowledge of history, others have more than enough to form opinions, myself included.

Perhaps because we know so much, we are so concerned. And thanks for asking, and yes, we are friends because you ask instead of assume I'm blowing smoke. :toast:

[cbayer]

35. We are friends because you ask instead of assuming I'm blowing smoke.

That meant a lot.:toast:

[Warpy]

15. Plutocracy, hands down

Maldistribution of wealth to this degree is never a great idea since the plutocrats can buy lesser men for what they think of as a song. The lesser men are thrilled to do the plutocrat's bidding in dismantling freedom and fairness for the majority while protecting his master from the consequences of law.

No democracy which has failed to rein in the rich has ever survived for long.

[Sinistrous]

36. The failure to impeach Cheney/Bush.

Absent impeachment, The Constitution is worthless.

Sinistrous

[cbayer]

37. But who's failure is that?

Is it not ours?

[Rosemary2205]

40. When we all got the "right" to vote in national elections we doomed ourselves

The US constitution made it clear nearly all the power in America belongs at the state and local level. To insure states held on to their power, THEY were given the responsibility to choose the 2 Senators who would represent them and a President who had very limited powers.

As each state moved to grant it's citizens the right to an individual vote for national elections, rather than retain that power to itself, we doomed ourselves. Instead of demanding policies and services from our own locals and state, we started the demands on Washington. They had to figure out how to get more money to provide it, got more power to provide it. Sure, there are a few good things about most of the power being concentrated at the federal level, but IMHO it's mostly negative.

A "one size fits all" policy isn't what's best for the diversity that is America - IMHO.

[cbayer]

42. I am not at all familiar with this argument but your concise description is fascinating.

State's rights, I am a little familiar with and, at a gut level, in support of.

The diversity argument is conpelling.

[Rosemary2205]

44. IMHO diversity is one of the few real strengths we have

Most other places in the world, people of diverse cultures living in close proximity generally don't tolerate each other very well. There are exceptions, of course. This country THRIVES on diversity. Our entire mindset is all about starting over, reinventing ourselves, trying something new. CHANGE.

A rough guideline that holds us together for economic strength, defense, infrastructure etc is all we really need. Smaller governments can be more flexible, change faster, target solutions to whatever is going on at the moment. There is a good reason why the "50 state strategy" is so effective. It's LOCAL. Top down government is slow, unapproachable, ineffective, and quite frankly a detriment to everything we stand for -- IMHO.

[MedleyMisty]

43. Lack of education

The inability for critical thought, the gullibility, the not being functionally literate - it all goes back to our education system.

And I am NOT blaming teachers. I'm sure they do the best they can within that system, which also produced them. And you. And me.

There's also a general lack of information for people who want to educate themselves. I look up subjects at the bookstore - there's either no results or "book not in store". So I look it up on Amazon - there's a few used copies, all for $200 plus. I look it up at the library - no results found. I look it up online and find interesting search results, which turn out to be a paragraph or two followed by "Please pay to read the rest of the article."

Made me forgive people's ignorance a lot more, when the information isn't freely available even when you know enough and have the intrinsic motivation to look for it.

[babylonsister]

45. Lack of interest is more likely, for lots of reasons.

People are busy and don't 'get' that their leaders might have a sway on their crappy lives.
This is the first year in a long time people are paying attention. They are scared, know that it's a free for all/no incumbent, or hungering for something different?

[Djinn]

46. Assuming you have a democracy now

which I guess is another thread...

Clearly the greatest threats would be the ones that all levels of govt spend the most resources fighting, ergo the greatest threats to the US are; Afghan peasants, Iraqi children, several plants (opium poppies, coca and cannabis sativa) Arab or Muslim air travelers, atheism, evolution and BOOBIES.

[UncleSepp]

47. I agree with you. A discussion is not a chorus of Amens.

The tendency now is to hold onto one's opinions as if they were articles of faith and pieces of personal identity, and to assume that others have the same relationship with their own opinions. What results is not only an unwillingness to change one's ideas, but a lack of interest in changing anyone else's ideas. In this, the war of ideas is lost by both sides. What replaces it is a war of people. When debate is dead, the only way to get rid of opposing ideas is to get rid of the people who hold them. We become willing to hate and willing to destroy in order to "win". Where in that is room for democracy?

[Zorra]

50. Greed.

Wealthy fascists pay intelligent people to manufacture cultural goals and ideals.

They devise shiny information and then market this materialistic bullshit to the "masses", bullshit that has all but stolen the collective heart, mind, and soul of what is known as civilization.

Some people see through it, but the substantial number of people that buy into the illusion(s) are always numerous enough to insure the continuation of the chaos and confusion that prevents the system from ever being significantly changed for the overall benefit of humanity and the planet.

The system was created in order to insure the indentured labor supply that enables "old money" to accrue more wealth and increase and perpetuate their power. A few people get "new money" along the way and join Club Fascismo. And there are always those along the way that will sell-out their mother in order to get a shot at eating the scraps from the king's table.

This has been a continuous process throughout history in some form or another. Different players, different technology, different methods of information dispersal, but always the same impetus:

Greed, and the desire for continued power and control.

Unfortunately, at this point in history, they have the information and technology to install the failsafe mechanism on the machine, and are in the process of installing it at this moment.

[JackRiddler]

51. Start by realizing there is no democracy in this country...

Then we might get somewhere.

Your post makes two valid points but gives a distorted picture by focusing on the problems with the people, when in fact the system is rigged to the point of being a vast, absurd scam.

Thanks for inspiring my own thread:

Is there a democracy in this country?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2981294&mesg_id=2981294

[alarimer]

52. the TSA and other government agencies like CIA, FBI, police

The TSA because of its insane and arbitrary rules about who gets to fly. Other agencies which violate civil rights with impunity. The police because of the increasing militarization of these police forces and the fact they get away with abusing people ALL the time.

Believe me, even if we took to the streets en masse, these agencies and your local neighborhood cops would be out there with water cannons and even bullets to stop us. It has happened before and it will happen again.

Actually, I would add that the Department of "Homeland" Security is the biggest threat, along with their tools, Blackwater.