It's easy for us men to say "legalize prostitution." What do you women think about this issue?

[Mike03]

Especially if you are wives or girlfriends.

Should prostitution be legal and easily available?

Women: do you want male prostitutes to be available to you?

And I would just add: I'm trying to consider all of the variable consequences that are, or could be, associated with easy availability to prostitution, such as STDs, marital discourse, self-confidence issues, etc...

On this matter, I'm totally undecided. (I'm a Buddhist with a low sex drive, but a high curiosity drive ). :nopity:

[emilyg]

1. Yes. Why not?

[eShirl]

2. this woman says

legalize it
unionize it

edited to add: I am married to a man

[Fresh_Start]

3. legalize prostitution, make adultery illegal

seems okay to me

[canadian_is_cold]

36. hehe good one :) n/t

[goddess40]

73. I agree,

If a spouse steps out he steps out of his/her marriage and leaves behind the marital assets, that would help keep peoples pants zipped. I don't care what single uncommitted consenting people do as long as they keep themselves tested and honest to the next person that has sex with them.

[mcscajun]

4. Legalize it. It's the only way to reduce the victimization inherent in criminal control.

Legalize it. Regulate it. Hell, Unionize it!

[sweetpotato]

61. Legalize, regulate, unionize and tax the income

I'm a married woman, 47 years old and I've always thought this.

What's the big deal? Its been going on forever, may as well make it safe for both the sex worker and the clients. It should be considered more of a public health issue, perhaps.

Edited to add: Like abortion, if you are opposed to it, don't do it.

[LostinVA]

85. Spot on post

[Dorian Gray]

140. That's the only reason that I see to legalize it...

it lessens the dangers to the women, and if regulated, it takes away the victimization of the women who are a part of the industry.

I do have a problem in general with the industry, and I'd like to read up more about places where it is legalized. It is often ignored in Thailand, but the industry there isn't regulated well, and I would NOT like to see the high levels of AIDS or STDs here that exist there.

Holland might be a better example, though I don't know any statistics there.

[XemaSab]

149. I think in Nevada safe sex is pretty standard in the brothels

:shrug:

[CTyankee]

184. Not true. It can and has increased victimization.

See Nicholas Kristoff's OpEd piece in the NY Times today. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?ref=opinion
Kristoff once held your view about legalizing prostitution. He has reason now to have changed his mind, which is what this article describes, as in the actual experience of a country that legalized prostitution (Holland).

After you read his piece, I would like to know what you think...

[Big Blue Marble]

189. Thank you for this excellent article.

What is clear to me is that most of the women who are posting in this thread have not read this
article or considered it's implications. Just statistics as the following should give them pause:

"The mortality data for prostitutes is staggering. The American Journal of Epidemiology published a meticulous study finding that the “workplace homicide rate for prostitutes” is 51 times that of the next most dangerous occupation for women, working in a liquor store. The average age of death of the prostitutes in the study was 34. “Women engaged in prostitution face the most dangerous occupational environment in the United States,” The Journal concluded.

We as a society forbid certain behavior by consenting adults because we deem it too dangerous or harmful. We do not permit indentured servitude or polygamy, or employment for less than the minimum wage. So why permit people to work in the unusually dangerous business of selling sex?"

This solution seems far better to me:

"In contrast, Sweden experimented in 1999 with a radically different approach that many now regard as much more successful: it decriminalized the sale of sex but made it a crime to buy sex. In effect, the policy was to arrest customers, but not the prostitutes."

From what the article is saying more countries will be following the Swedish approach to prostitution.

www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

[grannylib]

5. Absolutely. Legal, regulated for health and safety, taxed, and

get rid of the pimps, who are the only criminals in the equation.
And no, I don't condone cheating on one's spouse/SO of either gender.
Let law enforcement deal with some REAL issues.

[peacebird]

6. Wife. Still say legalize prostitution. Not to say I wouldn't be furious if my hubby looked for fun

outside of marriage, but that is a private matter. There is no reason to criminalize sex between consenting adults - even if it is paid for.

[PeaceNikki]

7. Agree with others here: Legalize it. Regulate it. Hell, Unionize it!

:thumbsup:

[MedleyMisty]

8. If my husband ever went to one, I'd kill myself

It was a hard enough struggle getting over the porn. But that was just images - if he was actually physically with another woman, it would destroy me utterly.

But other people can do whatever they want. Just keep it consensual and safe.

[Horse with no Name]

38. You'd first have to recognize that he would be the one at fault

Not you. No reason to kill yourself over his stupidity.

[goddess40]

74. Well said Horse

empty the bank accounts and dump his sorry ass.

[The Stranger]

84. "Empty his bank accounts and dump his sorry ass" for VIEWING PORN?

Holy shit -- some couples view porn together and enjoy the Hell out of themselves.

[goddess40]

89. no - for going to a prostitute nt

[Lorien]

151. Amen to that! n/t

[Big Blue Marble]

187. I think your response lack compassion.

When a woman is emotionally connected to a man and he violates the trust that they have built together
with sexual infidelity, it is often the most painful form of betrayal that she can experience.

[Breeze54]

112. Uh... why not kick the shit out of him instead?

If he was into porn and that was a big problem, then don't you think that just maybe... er...

You should never punish yourself for what someone else did wrong!

Punish HIM! Kick HIS ass!

[melody]

9. Absolutely legalize it

I don't care what any adult chooses to do in their private life ... whether it's done for money or not.

And I'm a woman who has been married for thirty years.

[KG]

10. it takes two to make a sex for money transaction.

[angrycarpenter]

11. legalize it

but find a way to get drugs out of the equation.

most prostitutes are not exclusive call girls but drug addicted women who do what they do to get high.

I lived on one of the many crack alleys in west palm beach. I have seen things that defy description. Very few of those women were there by choice, they needed drugs and they got them the only way they knew how.

If it were legalized a drug test for opiates, cocaine and meth must a part of it.

[Jed Dilligan]

57. That would just push users into illegal prostitution

Ultimately, the only solution is for the state to distribute the really addictive drugs to addicts for free.

[varelse]

12. Legalize it? Sure, with some conditions, but please remember...

not all sex workers are women. Not all clients choose sexual partners of the opposite sex. This question should more properly be directed at all of us, not just at "us wimminfolk".

For example, a co-worker of mine recently quit HIS job to become an "escort". The work pays much better, ironically the working conditions and treatment are probably less degrading than his old job(yeah, it's a "mcjob"), and it's "more fun". Because this line of work has not been legalized, or regulated to protect sex care professionals, I worry about this guy every time I think about him and what he's now doing. I worry that he'll meet up with the wrong kind of client, and get hurt, or get sick. And I worry that he'll get into it with the law and be humiliated and discriminated against in his path through the tortured halls of our "justice" system. The one thing I DO NOT worry about is if he has the (moral) right to do what he's doing, as long as both parties consent and neither of them is hurt.

So yeah, legalize it but make damn sure no one is doing it unless they really WANT to do it, and make damned sure you regulate it so workers and clients alike are given the same protection under law as with all other forms of employment and/or business contract.

[LeftyMom]

13. I don't think it would change much.

Then men who want to fuck around do now. Maybe some of them would go to legal, tested, official hookers instead of stringing along unofficial "buy me nice stuff" hookers picked up in some bar while both trying to tell themselves there's a relationship there.

The men who don't fuck around still wouldn't fuck around.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

69. "The men who don't fuck around still wouldn't fuck around. "

Same idea for decrim and legalization of drugs.

[sendero]

14. Not even a question.

... it's a consensual exchange between adults. Perhaps no different on some level than dinner and the theater.

Of course, that's the male point of view. But my wife happens to agree :)

[AlphaCentauri]

55. I know, men would be dating women for love not for sx n/t

[sendero]

76. The problem is...

.. that men need both.

[dropkickpa]

91. So do women

In fact, I'd prefer just the sex.

[sendero]

104. Yeah..

... they no doubt do. I prefer both myself :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

122. i agree too.

[eilen]

178. So, you take a woman on a date, buy her dinner

and it's just like hiring a prostitute? Those are your expectations?

[davsand]

15. Legalize it, regulate it, and let everybody make up their own mind.

I am married and I would not want my husband to use their services. That, however, still doesn't mean it should be a decision I make for anyone else and their marriage. None of us need a nanny and none of us need to have external (legal) morals placed on us.


Now, on a personal level, I think that if men want to sell it that should be legal too. Makes zero sense that one gender or the other should be prevented from engaging in the activity.


Laura


Oh--and I feel much the same way about legalizing drugs as well. If it GROWS in nature I have a hard time seeing how it oughtta be illegal.

[vankuria]

16. Absolutely not!

It's demoralizing for a woman to sell her body and it should never be sanctioned by our gov't. Besides, what ever rules or regulations put into place would be difficult to monitor. I could just see our gov't hiring brothel inspectors to make sure whorehouses are in compliance!

Prostitution would still be a business made up of vulnerable young women selling their bodies to perverts. Whether legal or illegal, the husbands that patronize these places would still be betraying their wives.

Where ever there is a sex trade you can be sure young women are being abused in some way, I don't care how many rules, laws or union power there is!

And speaking for myself, NO I would not want male prostitutes available, yuck! My husband is all I need!

[azygous]

22. You can only speak for yourself

Another woman may feel selling her sexual services is not degrading. Granted, there is a lot that is degrading about prostitution as it is currently in this country. But if it were to be legalized, regulated, unionized, and socially accepted, I can see how it could someday become a respectable profession. I'm all for legalizing it. Yes, I'm a woman.

[Skittles]

28. pay me enough and I will suck your dick

you don't think that is degrading? You think that could EVER be RESPECTABLE? BTW, I'm for legalization, and I'm a woman. But legal or not, it will always be D I S G U S T I N G and D E G R A D I N G

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Who is being degraded?

Is your point that the "sucker" (female or male) is being degraded? Or that the "suckee" is being degraded (obviously male)? Believe it or not, I am not trying to be an ass, I just am not sure who you think is being degraded and why?

[Skittles]

30. BOTH are being degraded

it is DISGUSTING

[TheWraith]

119. Argue with the employees of the Moonlight Bunny Ranch.

There's a series of HBO documentaries on the place which include extensive interviews with the girls who work there talking about how much they enjoy their jobs.

[Mojorabbit]

34. I agree

and it would not be what I would want for my niece nor any young woman to aspire to.
I think selling one's body is the most degrading thing anyone can do but that is my opinion and others think differently.

Women still do not have equality in this society and I hate to think that being a sexual commodity to be sold would be added to the mix. I think it would set the womans movement back years.

I don't like blurring the lines between intimacy in a loving relationship and being a product for sale. I can just see the ads on tv if it is made acceptable.

A woman in that profession no matter what safeguards will still never know ahead of time what she may end up with in the sack. I don't think you could make it safe. But that is just me. No one has to feel the same way I do about it.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Why do you think it is degrading?

I see this come up quite often in these discussions. I really don't understand why people would think it is degrading to sell one's own body, so to speak. Actually, the person is selling sex, not his/her body. So, in fairness, though you didn't ask, I don't see it as anymore degrading than selling one's "brain" or "athletic talents." I have known a number of sex workers and most never felt degraded, though there were a few I felt were lying and some who flat out said it was degrading, but they said it was degrading because they felt they had nothing else to offer and it was more about the shame of that fact and not the sex.

So, anyway, why do you feel it is degrading to sell (purchase(?)) sex? Thanks.

[Mojorabbit]

45. It is just my opinion

I have only known one sex worker and she was a childhood friend with a drug problem. The work devestated her. I know that a lot of people do just fine with it, at least that is what I hear.

I don't want to teach young girls that the best they have to offer is to sell their bodies.

It is not an occupation that has a long shelf life, it can be dangerous, and it ties one's success to appearance or attractiveness. I think it would eventually physologically be detrimental. Would a woman who does this for a living self esteem come from the prices she can get? Is her body worth only 50 dollars this year as she ages? Yes, I think it is degrading.

Women all over the world have fought against being property and second class citizens. I think it would be a big step back. Where we once were property now it would be fine to rent oneself to a stranger in an intimate act for money.

I think it crosses a line into dehumanizing a thinking sentinent human and makes them into a commodity. The ultimate in capitalism. I can just see McDonald's like corporate chains of brothels now. Don't worry honey, if you don't do well in school you can always work for minimum wage at one of these places. Soul sucking. I think this is where it would end up. :puke:

And as someone said downthread, it did not work in other countries when it was legalized.
I don't believe in selling kidneys or other body parts either. But as I said above, that is just my opinion.

[Skittles]

47. a human being being treated as a semen receptacle

it is inhumane and degrading

[mondo joe]

49. Anything can be degrading if you feel degraded by it.

I don't see anything particularly degrading about being a semen receptacle. I don't see anything degrading about getting paid for it.

I may be sensitive to this being gay, and having had my sexual orientation (and activities) scrutinized and judged.

But I maintain that what's degrading is a matter of personal preference.

[Skittles]

50. well if you like it that's fine

I find it very disgusting

[mondo joe]

51. I'm gay. A lot of people find me very disgusting.

My own opinion is that matters of personal preference and choice are personal. I don't know why anyone gets bent ut of shape about someone else's sex life or choices.

[Skittles]

52. I absolutely do NOT find gay folk disgusting

I find paying for sex and performing sex acts for money degrading and disgusting but it should NOT be illegal

HOMOPHOBES disgust me too!!!

[mondo joe]

54. I didn't think you found gay people disgusting.

But as someone who has lived a lifetime on the receiving end of other people's disgust, I'm just telling you sincerely and with no wish to be snarky, it doesn't seem completely different to me.

It's still disgust over someone else's sexual activity. If the person doing it isn't disgusted, I don't know why it's anyone else's business.

:shrug:

[Skittles]

56. NOT my business

THAT'S why I think it should be legal - but you cannot change my feelings that it is DISGUSTING and DEMEANING. PERIOD!!!

[mondo joe]

77. Well, you clearly think it IS your business since you have such a strong opiion about it.

I don't seek to change your opinion, however.

[LostinVA]

87. Woah -- someone just called you a homophobe?

:rofl:

I couldn't see the post, but that's just funny.

[defendandprotect]

170. In the case of prostitution, there are many reasons for concern . . .

Prostitution in America --- and the sex trade around the world --- are NOT simply matters of
"personal preference and choice" --- they are matters of FORCE, of INTIMIDATION, or OPPRESSION . .
!!!!!

How could you possibly miss that---???

However, I am also of the opinion that the criminalization of prostitution, like the criminalization of drugs, is what leads to the real corruption.

If women were to control their own bodies, their own businesses, they would still need protection because too often male clients will use force. They would probably have to hire protection --
but we would also have to expect our police enforcement/Courts to give the same protection to this
business as they do to any other.

[mondo joe]

176. Intimidatin and oppression thrive in the dark - that's why it should be legal and exposed.

Same as abortion.

[gollygee]

198. What's happened in countries where prostitution is legal?

Has it at least reduced the number of women held against their will in brothels (many of them Asian and brought to whatever country has legalized prostitution on false pretenses?) Or underage girls who have run away from home and are coerced into it by pimps looking for more women to pimp out? Are those kinds of problems improved?

It seems unlikely to me that someone making $5500 is being coerced into this job. But I don't think most prostitutes are in that situation. And making it legal could mean that demand for prostitution would go up, if there were no fear of legal action against men who are caught. But most people can't pay $5500 for a prostitute, so if demand went up, it seems like the supply of inexpensive prostitutes would have to increase to meet that demand. Which could mean more women being kept in captivity and men paying to rape them. Because when it isn't a case of consensual sex, such as when a woman is brought from Asia under false pretenses and then held against her will and forced to sexually gratify men, the woman is being raped. This is my problem with prostitution. I think of women in situations like that who do not have a choice and I don't know what is the best way to help them. Does legalization help them? Does it make the situation worse?

I can see how it might improve things but I don't think it necessarily would. I'd have to see some numbers and studies from places where prostitution is legal. If it reduces the amount of coercion in prostitution and helps women and girls being held against their will or who are underage or being coerced through the threat of physical violence or something, then it's probably for the best that it be legalized. But I have no idea what's happened elsewhere or even how many places prostitution is legal. Is it legal in the Netherlands?

[mondo joe]

207. I don't think $5k is the standard either. But the point should be (IMO) to ensure that

everyone has proper authority over their own body, and to aggressively root out and prosecute abuses.

There are abuses to everything.

[defendandprotect]

202. We're making the same argument about that . . ..

as I said, with reservations, about how the decriminalization of prositution would be worked out.
If we are to have a "beef market" then it is still degrading to females.
Confining prostitution to one area, I think, also is degrading.
There would have to be a lot of discussion about how to ensure that females involved are
there freely and protected.

[XemaSab]

165. I hate to say this

but women are already commodities.

I think legalizing prostitution and bringing it out in the open would actually HELP advance the women's movement by eliminating the underground nature of the flesh trade.

[Mojorabbit]

194. I think it would

institutionalize the view of woman as commodity and that is the last thing we need in my view.

[Jed Dilligan]

58. That's your own hangups and cultural bias talking

How is sucking dick more degrading than working at McDonald's? It isn't, intrinsically. Degradation is intrinsic to many corporate cultures, though.

[girl gone mad]

68. So you would rather..

suck dick than work at McDonald's?

[mondo joe]

78. I found applying to work at McDonalds more demeaning than any blow job I've ever given.

That includes at least one guy I had sex with who I wasn't into, but I did it just so he'd stop hitting on me.

I was 18 then.

The McDonalds job application was the year previous. It was s demeaning I walked out and never finished the app.

[Jed Dilligan]

94. I would rob the rich or deal drugs before doing either

on edit: The question is unfair because I'm a straight male. Most prostitutes are not; they are straight or bi females or gay males.

So the question should be: Would I eat pussy for money rather than work at McDonald's? Absolutely. Even if it was attached to unattractive women.

[seabeyond]

204. well.... after i hit explosion from you other post, and reading this..

i will say. wow. at least you are consistent

[seabeyond]

203. sucking dick more degrading working at McDonald's? are you stupid

or just a guy.....

some strange, weird, perverted, ugly ass, dirty as in not clean unknown man.... going down sucking his dick. how is that not as degrading as working mcd's

i have not heard anything this stupid on du yet.....

[lildreamer316]

62. I'm not a prostitute, but I do sell my body, in a sense.

I felt more demoralized in a nine to five than I ever have stripping.

"Where ever there is a sex trade you can be sure young women are being abused in some way"

You really don't know what you are talking about until you have been IN or around one of the sex=based industries for a long while. I have never felt abused, I was raised without abuse, I went to college. So did many ladies I work with. By stating the above, you are buying into the meme that any and all ladies in these businesses are dumb and easily manipulated; without any self-determination or innate intelligence. NOTHING could be further from the truth. There are just as many fiercely idependent, intelligent, self-aware and self-actualized women in my business as there are in any other. You just don't see them because you aren't trying to; or have fallen for the corporate/relgious/pseudo-feministic line of the helpless, vulnerable , and desperate 'girl'.

"My idea of feminism is self-determination, and it's very open-ended: every woman has the right to become herself, and do whatever she needs to do." ~ Ani DiFranco


Besides, they already have a decent model for regulating prostitution in Nevada, OUTSIDE of Vegas.It's not perfect, but it does work.

It seems one of the last challenges for liberals to have an open mind is sex work. We really don't feel welcomed in either party, it's just that I believed I had chosen the lesser of two evils. To my relief, most people here are supportive of my CHOICE of career, instead of condemming it. To be honest, we as a group of workers fit better into the libertarian model,but I just cannot agree with the overall concept of little to no government that they propose. But that is another subject all together.

[Yavin4]

113. I Once Saw A Legal Secretary Called The "C-Word" In Front of Her Co-Workers

by a partner, and there was nothing that any body could do about it. There are several legal professions that are degrading to women.

[TheWraith]

117. Actually, some governments do hire brothel inspectors. Including right here in the States.

In Nevada, prostitution is legal outside Clark County. The state government inspects the brothels, and has routine medical checkups for all the girls who work there. Some of the places, in addition to their male clientele, have signs out front reading "women and couples welcome." And the women make around 100-200 thousand dollars a year.

I suggest you look at the history of prohibition. As long as alcohol was banned, its production and distribution was governed by criminal elements. Once it became legal again, production was regulated and controlled.

The assumption that the sex trade in inherently exploitive is no more true than assuming that alcohol production is inherently criminal, or any other case of an unequal economic system in human history.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

139. how can you state what is demoralizing for other adult women?

they should have the choice in determining this for themselves.

[BanzaiBonnie]

17. Why would that make a difference?

I believe it should be legal.

[Hekate]

18. This old married lady says legalize it, "sin tax" it, unionize it, regulate it, and ...

...make sure health care is part of the regulation. No minors, only adults. Get rid of the pimps. Help the drug addicted if at all possible.

For those who don't recognize the term, "sin tax" is an old and humorous term for the taxes levied on alcohol and cigarettes.

Those who are gonna do it are gonna do it, and this is yet another behavior the government should stop criminalizing, like divorce, adultery, and suicide, which all used to be punishable by law.

In my personal relationship, if my husband visited prostitutes it would be a deal-breaker. But the fact that other people do it does not threaten our marriage. We are monogamous -- let others do as they wish.

Hekate

[Mojambo]

19. Selling is legal. Fucking is legal.

What's the problem here?

[Warpy]

20. I've always been in favor of legalization

because the present system victimizes the women who work in it every way you can imagine. I'd rather have it legal and regulated than illegal and dangerous.

I'd rather face the husband straying for a rare night out with a safe pro than a husband having drunken sex with some diseased bar skank or even worse, a heavy duty emotionally charged affair. That latter one is the one that breaks marriages up, not emotionless fantasy sex with a pro. Waking up with a disease from a skank also threatens marriages, but not as much as emotional abandonment does.

Just make sure the wife has an equivalent amount of cash at her disposal for whatever she considers the finer things in life. A day at a spa sounds good to me right now.

[Hippo_Tron]

21. Women are exploited from it far more because it is illegal...

Prostitution is about as old as civilization. It's going to happen whether it's legal or not. If it is legal, the women who are sex workers will have the same legal protections that women of any other profession do.

[lildreamer316]

63. NAIL on head!! (no pun intended!!)

That's it, in a very succinct way. Thank you.

[Booster]

23. Legalize it and tax the Hell out of that $5000 an hour job. Should

have some kind of tax that both of them have to pay though. I don't know about making having an affair illegal though - between people on dope and people who commit adultery, half the country would be in jail.

[enlightenment]

24. Yes.

I live in Las Vegas and teach history, including Nevada history, where we discuss this. I don't claim to be an expert! Brothel prostitution is legal in counties with a population of less than 200,000. So Las Vegas does not have legalised prossies - instead they have streetwalkers and "escort services." Those women are afforded none of the protections that their brothel cousins have.

STDs are almost non-existent among brothel prostitutes because the regulations are strict - very strict. Marital discourse is not going to be impacted by legalised prostitution. If someone wants it, they'll get it whether it's legal or not. People who say otherwise are kidding themselves. I'm not sure what you mean by self-confidence - I'll assume you are addressing the "self-esteem" issues that all prostitutes are supposed to be suffering from . . . I'm sure some do; but I don't believe legal prostitution attracts women with low self-esteem because you are competing in a closed environment with other women. To "get" your client, you have to be able to attract them. I don't really see it as a lot different than the meat market night clubs that people frequent; women (and men) are trying to "get" someone in those places as well - as far as I can tell, the biggest difference is that the prossies get paid for it!

I think that illegal prostitution - streetwalking and the like - is far more likely to have people suffering from from self-esteem issues. It's a different environment completely.

I would love to see prostitution legalised and regulated. Obviously, the profession serves a fundamental purpose or it would have disappeared long ago. Why fight it?

As for male brothels. Yeah. I might try it. Depends on the set-up. I think women are more inclined to want the "whole package" instead of a couple of hours, so it would have to be a more "weekend" oriented type of thing. And of course, I'd expect quality service.

[mondo joe]

25. Please note, not all men and women are heterosexual, nor is all prostitution. NT

[LibertyLover]

26. As a woman, my view is legalize it,

protect the women who want to be sex workers, help those who don't get out and into some other line of work, keep all sex workers and their clients healthy and tax it.

[Skittles]

27. it should be legal

but it will always be disgusting, legal or not

[galledgoblin]

31. I'd actively support legalization, if it was accompanied by aggressive crack downs

on associated slavery and abuse issues.

[lildreamer316]

64. I do think that making it legal

might make it harder for those things to happen, although far from impossible.
I do understand how much manpower it might take to check things out, though. Of course, it would help if we weren't spending so much on WAR.
BUT
I bet there wouldn't be as much war if there were more sex going on.
Just MHO.
;)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

116. you are right. also as soon as things are legal they are far easier to regulate

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. I don't want them available to me, but I don't care if they are legal.

Not my thing.

[provis99]

33. legalization won't work

because it will still be regulated, as many of you say. Prostitutes who don't want to be taxed or regulated will offer their services illegally, and be subject to the same problems that existed before. They tried legalization in Amsterdam and guess what happened? People who don't want to pay the high rates at a brothel have sex will illegal hookers whose prices are cheaper; these cheaper prostitutes are victims of violence more than brothel prostitutes, have more incidences of STDs, are more drug addicted, and evade taxation, as do their clients.

Legalization doesn't work.

[canadian_is_cold]

35. I say legalize and regulate it. It would be safer for the women involved in the trade. n/t

[Princess Turandot]

37. No..

The description 'consensual acts between 2 adults' conjures up 2 people making an adult 'contract', going to a hotel room or even the back seat of the car, having sex and then going on their ways. I think that if prostitution was primarily a 'consensual' act, that it should not be a crime. However, I don't believe that most prostitution falls into that category. In most cases, the prostitutes have been forced into this demeaning and often dangerous 'job' of last resorts by the desparation in their lives: working in Burger King isn't going to pay for their drug addiction. Or they are runaways from tragic home situations who have no other way to support themselves. Even worse, others are directly coerced into becoming prostitutes. In most cases, the lion's share of the payment is going to people who exploits their situation or even has caused it, not to them. Often those people are full fledged criminals. Generally they are willing do everything in their power to keep their 'commodities' under their control. Consent is in name only.

If legalized licensed brothels were established across the U.S., I just don't believe that there will be an influx of middle class citizens applying for positions therein and that's where the problem is. (I also assume that the brothel regulators will insist that known drug users and underage boys among others not be hired.) As a result, I believe that there will continue to be an enormous presence of unlicensed prostitution which will continue to victimize the prostitute. It's easy to mock laws against prostitution as being nothing but uptight puritanical morals; after all as the Godfather says, it's something that most people want nowadays, and is ah forbidden to them by the pezzonovante of the Church. But I think it is primarily that same social stigma which leads to whatever efforts are made to limit the exploitation of prostitutes. The meme that it's just a 'victimless crime' risks further absolving society from doing something to aid the actual victims here, the prostitutes. The mobsters will now be guilty mostly of a license violation. The prostitutes sinks even further into an invisible underclass: their problems must be of their own making since after all, they can join a union!

So, my answer is 'no'. I would however think it perfectly okay to make providing sex for money not a crime while leaving buying sex and profiting from others' sex acts illegal.

[vankuria]

209. You nailed it!

First off I don't pretend to be an expert on prostitution. But as a social worker, I see the way vulnerable individuals are taken advantage of in our society. And no human being on this earth should have to suffer at the hands of another who's only goal is to make money off some elses body. To those who work in the sex industry and claim they are happy, well educated and brilliant, more power to you. Sadly, this is not the case for everyone.

Whether prostitution is legal or illegal, I doubt it's a career choice most would consider or want for their daughters. Legalization might create some regulations that could benefit prostitutes, but it would also expand the sex industry and perhaps an undercurrent of illegal operations to compete with those regulated.

Legalization will not change the vulnerable young women drawn into this, the abused, neglected, drug addicted, mentally ill, etc. And it's a short career, I'd imagine once a woman starts to age she's no longer profitable and will be shown the door. Then what? Does anyone care what happens to aging prostitutes that don't know any other way to support themselves? Of course not!

Instead of all the money that would go into regulating an industry that exploits young women, how about money used to help young women to learn life skills to be contributing members of society.

And to those who claim it's better than say working at McDonalds, if you had a choice for your own daughter, what would it be?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Legalize and regulate it,

but there's a problem.

Legalization mostly requires that prostitutes be at least 18. However, the johns (creeps) want the young teenagers because they believe (falsely) that those girls are free of STDs.

When I worked with street kids, there were girls who decided to get out of the life when they were 17 or 18, because the johns considered them "too old" and they couldn't make the money that the 12-15-year-olds could.

As Bob Herbert said in his column a few days ago, it is not just to arrest the underage prostitute and let the john off with a fine.

So I'd say, legalize it, but anyone who tries to pick up or pimp an underage prostitute, gets a whopping fine and his picture in the paper and on the evening newscast, while the young prostitute gets hustled into a halfway house for the emotional support and education that she's probably never had.

As to your second question, I have no desire to visit a male prostitute. Sex is no good for me unless I have an emotional attachment to the man.

[AzDar]

41. It should be legal, regulated, and taxed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. Legalize it, licence it, regulate it

and yes I am a wife.

And no, I would not partake...

:-)

But I realize that this is the world oldest profession and cannot be stamped back, Hell, it WAS legal all over the country at one point, or at least heavily tolerated. Them red light districts at the beginning of last century all over the country, what do you think they were?

It is time this country grows the fuck up... no pun

[Withywindle]

43. I say yes, and regulate it.

And I think that if it weren't for our FUBAR attitudes about sex and women, it wouldn't be anymore inherently degrading than being paid to cook for someone, or to give someone a haircut, or to let people watch you play football.

Women: do you want male prostitutes to be available to you?


I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority among women, but actually if I could be guaranteed it was safe, and there was one that was actually attractive to me (hint: NOT the male-model six-pack-abs type), I would consider it, sure. Out of curiosity if nothing else. Curiosity is a pretty strong motivator for me. :)

[Lilith Velkor]

44. Legalize it, and gimme my gigolo voucher

I can do quality assurance.

Yes, I'm serious. Nobody should have to go through the whole relationship song and dance when all they want is sex - it's a stupid waste of time, and contaminates the dating pool.

[citizen snips]

46. agreed.

Most of my friends want to go to Thailand just for that reason.

Dating cost too much money and takes a lot of time out of school.

Also having to deal with my ex-girlfriend's parents was a pain.

[girl gone mad]

67. Interesting.

I think all of the women promoting legalization in this thread should read this post and think it over a bit more.

[Mojorabbit]

95. Yes

dehumanizing at it's worst.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. It is legal, and controlled in places like the Netherlands

they don't have that many problems with it

So?

[Mojorabbit]

108. Did you read the post below

which disputes your claim?

[girl gone mad]

110. Actually, the Netherlands has..

a huge problem with women being trafficked from impoverished countries. The men who force these women into sex slavery are never prosecuted because of the grey areas in the law. There are nearly ten times more prostitutes in the Netherlands than in Sweden (where it is illegal), despite the fact that Sweden has twice the population. Far from being a deterrent, legalization seems to motivate more woman to choose prostitution as a career path, or worse, to be tricked or forced into it by unscrupulous men.

Having worked with former sex workers I know that their long term prospects are quite dark. Even outside of disease, constantly servicing men takes an enormous toll on a woman's body and mind. This claim that legalization makes the problems go away strikes me as rather shallow.

Shouldn't our goal be to get women (and men) out of this business? Legalizing, taxing and regulating it would only create more government dependence on human slavery.

[mondo joe]

133. Frankly, I have the same response often given to people who oppose abortion.

It has always occurred and always will. We can let it be illegal and at high risk to the women involved, or we can legalize and regulate it. True of abortion, true of prostitution - with the exception that prostitution includes men as well.

[Chovexani]

145. Because some people are assholes, it should illegal?

By that logic, video stores should be illegal because they encourage people to watch movies at home instead of spending big bucks in a theater. Or bookstores should be shut down because of libraries.

The women who are for continued stigmatizing of sex work (and by extension, sex workers) ought to take a look at the eras of Prohibition and pre-Roe v. Wade America and think it over a bit more. There's a reason it's called the World's Oldest Profession. Prohibition never works. What works is legalization, regulation, and education so that the only people (prostitution is not a heterosexual activity, thanks, all genders are involved in it) who choose sex work are those for whom it is a choice and not something they have to resort to because they have no other options.

[kimmylavin]

48. As a married woman...

Absolutely.

I did several papers on this in college (years ago, but still...).
Among other things, I compared statistics from "hookers" on the street in New York and Los Angeles with the brothel workers in Nevada.

Reasons to legalize it:
1. Stem the flow of STD's (especially AIDS) currently running through the sex trade
2. Remove pimps from the equation
3. Allow the woman to carry/insist upon the use of condoms without fear of them being used as evidence against them
4. Provide a safe, private place for both the sex workers and the johns
5. Tax it - for god's sake, its a billion dollar a year industry (or it was in the early 90's)!
6. Allow a sex worker the option to prosecute if she is hurt by a client

Etc, etc.

A consensual sexual act between two adults shouldn't be anyone else's business!
Now if my husband went to one, that'd be a different story! :)

[alarimer]

53. Absolutely not

It's degrading. Unfortunately some get paid really well so they can put up with the kind of abuse they must have to deal with constantly. And they are educated enough to find something better.

[michaz]

70. I agree!

[FourScore]

100. They are abused without recourse when it is illegal.

If it were legal, women would have legal rights to take action against their abuser.

[Book Lover]

59. Legalize it

And what exactly makes you think that males prostitutes are unavailable?

[lildreamer316]

60. Being a stripper, I'm somewhat biased...sorta.

Because we are oft confused,one for the other, I think it would do my profession good for prostitution to be legalized...then it could be banned from the clubs a lot easier, and I think patrons would be less likely to attempt to come in looking for it from us.

I think it should be legalized either way, really.

Check my sig line... ;)

[noamnety]

65. As a human rights advocate: No.

And I need to point out that I find it depressing that your OP seems to focus primarily on the effects of the purchasers rather than those who are forced into prostitution - which is the vast majority of sex workers. A good rule of thumb - given the choice, concern yourself with the effects on the least privileged, rather than the most.

When it is legalized in an area, illegal human trafficking in that area does not decrease, it increases.
When it is legalized, the women involved still experience violence and sexual abuse.

When it is legalized, we are regulating instead of prohibiting rape. In the Netherlands, for instance, 25% of the prostitutes are estimated to be victims of human trafficking. That means 25% of them are being raped - daily. That should be a huge story - there should be a massive outcry against it. And nobody cares, because - since it's legal - they can pretend they've done something to "improve" human rights. And more importantly, because the men don't want to give up their privileges to have access to women's bodies on demand. They'd rather have women get raped daily than give up that privilege.

The women involved? I know this will be a big shock, but they do not want to have sex with you - not even the legal ones. In any other situation, we call it rape when you coerce someone into having sex with you when they don't want to.

I don't know what it says about a man's mindset that he feels entitled to purchase women to masturbate into, with no regard for her feelings. If you are having sex with a woman, as equals, go for it. This is not about prudery - it's about basic human respect and dignity. If you are a man making a woman have sex with you because she's your employee, you have some fucked up notions about humanity, about male supremacy, about human rights, and about compassion for others.

As for whether I'd want a male prostitute to be available for me, obviously no. For the same reasons.

As for the argument that you're helping out some desperate woman who needs the money, my thoughts - again, leaning toward human rights rather than male entitlement - if you were all that concerned with the needs of the woman, you'd just give her (or a charity) the extra in your budget without forcing yourself on them sexually. Exploitation is not goodwill.

Copying an old post of mine from the women's rights forum: (There) are other "consensual" behaviors that we advocate against, because we recognize that free will is not free when one of the consenters holds all the power in a relationship. Sweatshop labor is an example. Libertarians will argue that there's nothing wrong with using sweatshop labor - those people chose to take those jobs, so it must be better than any other options they had, thus it must be a "good" thing.

Those who engage in a different sort of critical thinking don't just look at the individual contract, but instead at the system, and how that system affects the environment for everyone, and how it grows out of a system of oppression. If the sweatshop factory hadn't moved into a village, hadn't bought the most productive land in some cases, and polluted the surrounding areas, rendering them unfit for sustenance farming, and poisoning or draining the local water supply, those villagers would have had the option to retain their traditional lifestyles. The people with power used that power to eliminate the other options in many cases, and then they sit back and say we're doing a good thing for the village, we're offering them a wage, which is better than no wage at all. And they present that as if the villager has free will in that arrangement, and as if they should be grateful that the factory owner has presented this fine opportunity to them.

I'm not convinced there can be a fully consensual relationship in the for-profit sex industry, which - despite a minority of cases in which men are the commodities, or in which women are both the consumers and pimps - is based on the buying, selling, consuming, and often the abuse of one oppressed class of people by another privileged class, historically, and in real numbers still today.

[GaYellowDawg]

75. That's a very convincing argument.

Thanks for adding that post to the thread. I think your point about power dynamics is a great one. It's the reason why all three words of "fully consenting adults" are important.

Now that you've gotten me thinking about it, the same arguments used for prostitution in this thread could also be used to endorse sexual harassment. What if a professor required sex from a student for an A? Or, alternatively, what if a student approached a teacher offering sex for an A? According to some arguments earlier in the thread, if the student got an A out of it, then both parties got what they wanted, a contract between consenting adults, right? Among other things, it's the power dynamic and the perpetuated culture of oppression that make that "transaction" so wrong.

Thank you for adding a clear, rational perspective on such a potentially charged topic.

[EFerrari]

99. Keeping abuse in the shadows doesn't mitigate abuse. n/t

[baby_mouse]

124. You are he first person on the other side of this argument from me who's managed to convince me you

have a point.

It is often overlooked that men are sometimes the commodoties, and I thank you for acknowledging that, at least.

[girl gone mad]

66. I can't see how legalization would be any good.

Legalize drugs? Yes.

Legalize prostitution? Not feasible.

We already have a sex slave problem in this country. I can only imagine if prostitution were made legal. We would have to create a whole new class of immigration visa specifically for impoverished women to come be legal sex slaves. I don't buy the arguments that it can be unionized and/or regulated. This is a country that still has sweatshops and corporations locking workers in at night. Even if we started with the perfect conditions and legislation, it would only be a matter of time before lawyers and lobbyists moved to deregulate.

There are just too many ramifications to broad legalization which people tend to ignore when they assume legalization will make it all above-board.

[Vinca]

71. There will be prostitution whether it's legal or illegal.

If it's legal there can be health regulations. Bottom line, if it is going to remain illegal, it's time to arrest the Johns as well as the prostitutes. That's my biggest complaint. It's not fair to arrest the women, but snicker a bit and tell the guys to be more careful and send them home.

[meow2u3]

72. As long as it's male prostitutes

I'm not interested in picking up a female hooker. Sorry, lesbian DUers: I'm straight :evilgrin:

[eilen]

79. No

"in a patriarchy, wherein one class oppresses another for its own profit, there can be no ‘consent’ between oppressor and oppressed." -- twisty

Prostitution is dehumanizing, demeaning and a violation of base/root personal integrity.

I cannot imagine a situation where being a whore or prostitute is a positive rather than a pejorative. Whether it is in selling out your body, your values, your ideals your family, your community, the public trust.

So, say you're a prostitute and your "agency" sends you a train ticket and address. You arrive at the hotel room and a prominent public figure walks in. His eyes are flat, dead and calculating. He pressures you to engage in unprotected sex and you refuse. He then says "well let me have your a**-- I'll pay the extra." You throw up a little in you mouth after you are viscerally repulsed and you murmur something about safety. You really can't return back to your hometown without the envelope of money or you will "lose" your "job". How will you pay your bills? After all, you are 22, just past the peak of your high earning years....and he is a steady customer.

Two months later and AF-ing isn't nearly doing it for him, now he wants to piss on you. Anything for a Diamond member of the Emperor's club. Two months later a college student (19) is sent with you to mentor for "OJT".

I don't know, how consensual does it feel to you?

[mondo joe]

80. Do you believe women can consent to have sex at all?

Or is it just when there is a financial transaction that women can't form consent?

[eilen]

107. This thread is really blowing my mind

There is a difference between legalizing and decriminalizing. I agree with decriminalizing prostitution because it doesn't seem fair that the women treated as meat envelopes are prosecuted.

The argument about legally consenting adults pales when looked at in legalized environments like Nevada, where the women are kept virtual prisoners there (certainly not for their benefit) and Amsterdam where they are displayed like sides of beef in shop windows and cages.

Our government, regulate? They can't even keep the beef supply healthy, never mind protect Walmart employees from abuses.

The fact that money is involved points exactly to the point. Since the sexual revolution in the 1960's it is a virtual impossibility that a man or a woman cannot participate in sex with a willing partner (who does not work for them, please). The milk is literally flowing for free. Honestly. I have worked with some incredibly unattractive people and they most always are married with kids at home. My neighbor was married to a man with no legs, they met at rehab. She divorced him for cheating on her, and not with any prostitute.


So, why the need for a prostitute? Esp. for a powerful man like the former Attorney General of NY, the Governor?

They want something else. It is power, the idea of buying and having power over a woman. Because it this was an equal transaction instead of what could be termed a "purchase" of the right to have mastery/dominion over the woman, I think the siren call of thousand dollar hooch would lose its ardor.

[mondo joe]

126. I missed an answer to my question in there. Do you believe women can form consent to have sex

at all, or is it only when money is exchanged that they can't?

[eilen]

144. yes

I think women can consent to sex when there is not a power imbalance such as money involved, when it is a mutual shared experience.

In a patriarchal society, prostitution is not a genuine consensual contract.

[mondo joe]

146. Clarifying question: You believe in a patriarchal society women can form consent,

despite all societal inequities, except when money is involved? Is that correct?

If so do you believe that in all non-prostitution circumstances a woman is to be trusted to form consent? Say, when the male in the scenario is more wealthy or more powerful, but no money changes hands, are we to believe she is forming true consent?

[defendandprotect]

172. As long as we have patriarchy, that will be a valid question . . .

[mondo joe]

177. Do you believe women can form consent at all? Can women be trusted with choice -

like abortion? Or are their choices to be second guessed by others?

[eilen]

179. In some countries ME--esp. Sharia communities, women are told to abort

by their husbands if he doesn't want another child, as she is considered his property, she does. In China, there is a one child law so a woman is compelled to abort. In our society, women are judged as "slut" or other pejorative when it is public knowledge that a. she is pregnant outside marriage (particularly if she doesn't know who the father is),and b. if she has one or more abortions-- and these are not illegal.

In the case of prostitution, whether it is through an "agency", brothel, or streetwalking/pimp, once taking that route, one is trading personhood for objecthood. So to be a prostitute is to be coerced by money, and possibly threat of violence, to be treated as an object, less than human.

To rephrase another, it is like taking a job in which you enter a room alone with random strangers (not many prostitutes get to pick their johns) twice as strong as you and allow them to shove dildos in your orifices for an hour. and pretend you enjoy it.

The comparison with a woman (or man) who meets a man (or woman) and they are attracted to one another and decide to get naked and enjoy each other, that is different. You are not giving any one of them power over the other, it is mutual share. In a prostitute/"john" setup, there is no "share" there is only cater to the "john" without him/her needing to consider the other person.

[mondo joe]

180. So to clarify: are you saying it is impossible for a woman (let's limit it to a woman in the

US) to form consent to sell sexual services?

[eilen]

191. Obviously many women consent to this and many other self destructive behavior

what is your point? Are you upset about the quote I posted from Twisty?

[mondo joe]

197. My point is simply that if adults are free to form consent, it's their choice and

no one else's.

I'm not upset by your quote or anything else. I'm simply advocating for adults to have freedom of hoice and autonomy over their own bodies.

Thanks for clarifying. :-)

[eilen]

211. Do you allow for the consideration

that young women (and men) can be influenced to make self destructive choices from either emotional wounds from early abuse or undue emotional manipulation of authority figures?

[defendandprotect]

201. A woman can "consent" . . . but we are questioning how freely in a patriarchy ---

There is technical consent --- though we are not always sure re prostitution ...
there is heavy involvement of organized crime and many prostitutes have testified to abuse
and being forced into various acts against their will.

Women around the world are held in sexual slavery --- including in the US --- !!!

Is anyone unaware of this --- ???


THIS is all quite different still from "casual sex" from sex in "marriage" from "relationship" sex and from general attitudes about sex which impact women in a PATRIARCHY --- the question of inequality of the genders continue to make it an open question even though we presume there is "consent" as we generally think about it. The questions are how valid is that "consent" in a
PATRIARCHY.

[mondo joe]

206. If a woman can't truly form consent how can she be treated as an equal adult who can

make legally enforceable choices?

Do you think women who choose abortion TRULY consent to do so?

[defendandprotect]

199. I gave you my answer re "sex" --- we still live in a patriarchy . . .

so it's an open question ---

as power still remains in the hands of PATRIARCHY --

The fact that women are not totally free of PATRIARCHY, however, doesn't mean that they
don't recognize their own interests --- in controlling their own bodies, in controlling
reproduction -- and that the tools to do that are birth control and abortion -- which are
available legally now.

The very essence of PATRIARCHY is to question the female right to control her own body ---
to make decisions about reproduction.

It is a PATRIARCHAL argument that women cannot be trusted to make decisions about childbearing/
abortion and that it must be left in male hands ---

As we can easily see, these female decisions about reproduction are still being severely
impacted by PATRIARCHAL attempts to interefere with abortion and birth control --- and
"morning after" pills ---

Women well understand their moral right and need to control reproduction ---
as PATRIARCHY continues to try to regain control over the female body and procreation.

[defendandprotect]

171. A lot of intelligent questioning here . . .

[Orsino]

81. It only becomes my business when people are exploited.

Marginalizing sex workers in an illegal industry leaves them largely unprotected. Legalize it, so it can be regulated!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

88. strongly seconded

[lightningandsnow]

82. I think it should be decriminalized

and unionized.

Seriously, I think it's a feminist issue - under the current laws, sex workers are subject to violence, and the laws do nothing to protect them.

[youthere]

83. Married woman here...legallize it to protect the workers...

and god help my husband if he ever partakes in that "legal" service as long as he is married to me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

86. prostitution should be legalized to protect women who are in sex work.

[Drachasor]

106. I concurr. It doesn't seem ideal, but it is the wisest and most pragmatic humanitarian solution

[Le Taz Hot]

90. Yes, yes and yes.

As for STD's -- whether you are or are not using prostitution services -- safe sex method should always be employed.

And, btw, there already IS easy availability to prostitution.

[aroach]

92. It should be legal

I could write a book on why I think it should be legal and I don't have time for that right now.

I am a married woman. If my husband hired a prostitute I'd be pissed at him for blowing our budget but not because of the sex.

Edited for typo.

[Jennicut]

93. It should be leagailzed, and I am a married woman

Throwing people in jail for essentially cheating is dumb. Yes, its "morally" wrong if you are married and then there is STDS and AIDS and what if that condom breaks and you catch something from the prostitute and give it to your wife/girlfriend? Still, wasting resources on catching people hiring a call girl or a hooker or whatever we want to call them is ridiculous.

[EFerrari]

97. Of course it should be legalized. Keeping it illegal only puts women at risk

with no recourse to the law. :shrug:

[FourScore]

98. YES!!! I've lived in countries where it is legal.

It is much better for the women. They get better health care and it is much better regulated. They have rights that are not granted to them if it is illegal.

In the meantime though, I hate the way women are prosecuted for selling, but men seldomly for buying.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

101. Legalize and regulate it

More harm comes from the illegal sex trade business than would come from a legalized, healthier sex trade business.

There have always been people selling sex. Just like there's always been people paying for sex. By keeping it illegal and unregulated you have a far greater chance of spreading diseases than you would if it were a regulated industry.

Beyond that I feel it's not my business who is seeing a prostitute, unless it's myself, a minor child of mine or my SO.

[goodgd_yall]

103. Oops

I didn't see your post----I had the very same thought and used the same subject line. Great minds....as they say.

[goodgd_yall]

102. Legalize and regulate it

When it is brought out into the open, then laws can be made to protect prostitutes and their clients.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

121. agreed, we need to protect the people in sex work.

[treestar]

105. It is one of the immutable things about society, it may as well be

legalized. Like most immigration. It just happens, making it illegal doesn't stop it. May as well regulate it. The government could charge fees for hooker's licenses.

I do think women are exploited by it, but they will be less so if it were legal. They could seek protections from the law that they can't now.

[Uncle Joe]

109. Just putting in my two cents worth, don't forget to legalize Marijuana while you're at it. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

111. if a woman is "pro-choice" regarding abortion- shouldn't she also be pro-choice re: prostitution?

after all, isn't their motto something like "my body, my choice"...? :shrug:

[mondo joe]

130. Precisely. I support the right of women (and men) to do with their bodies as they choose.

I'm pro choice about more than just abortion.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

136. you also rock!

:loveya:

[dysfunctional press]

142. yep. pro athletes get to do as they choose with theirs, why not everyone else...?

nt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

135. yes,

[Firespirit]

114. Definite no

Single woman. (Why are the inputs of wives and girlfriends more valued?)

The "profession" is nothing less than trade in human bodies.

How many women actually aspire to be prostitutes? How many of them have that as the career that they dream of and work to achieve? I'm sure there are a very few who do, but for the overwhelming majority, it is a career of desperation. They enter it because of financial need, or they are tricked or bullied into it. Prostitution in the U.S. is sexual slavery elsewhere in the world. We deplore it in India and Thailand, but see it in a better light here because of Vegas and "high class" rings that our politicians and other powerful men tend to get involved with. But it is still trading in human flesh.

I would support legal amnesty for the prostitutes, and going hardcore after the pimps, madams, and johns, who are the real villains here. This sick society has demonized the "whore," the "wicked woman," while the true evil is in those who create and sustain the system.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

115. does anyone aspire to be a janitor? should we make that illegal as well?

even if society had good progressive social programs, prostitution would still exist albeit in lower numbers

we should strive for a solution to poverty however i have a right to my body. whether or not i want to sell it for sex is my really my choice. i have no right to tell other adult women what they can and cannot do with their bodies so long as they cause no harm to others.

[Firespirit]

118. False logic

Some people do indeed aspire to be maintenance workers. (Glad to know that you consider it to be on the level of sex trade, though. Why don't you say that to a labor union?) But even if they didn't, there is another point that must be made.

Prostitution takes away a woman's (or man's) right to control their body. The reason is that she turns her body into a product, and in business, when a customer pays for a product or service, they are entitled to receive it. Legalizing prostitution as a legitimate industry, with the product for sale being sex, takes away her basic right over her body.

We made slavery illegal, and that means that even if someone had people willing to work as slaves, it would be against the law because it violates their human rights. Even if they think they don't want those rights, they still have them, and they cannot be taken away by means of a business contract.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

120. prostitution does not take away ones rights to ones body unless its forced prostitition

i do not think using ones body to make money takes away basic rights, do athletes not have rights to their body


i do not think being a sex worker is a bad thing so even if i think its on the same level as a janitorial job, both jobs are very rarely jobs children dream of being as kids. neither of those jobs to me are 'bad'. the judgment of these jobs comes from you not me.

slavery is forced. thats why we took it away. prostitution is NOT always forced. completely false analogy on this one,

[Firespirit]

125. So you don't see it as a business transaction?

This is a conflict between the business rights of a customer and the human rights of the seller.

If a customer pays for something, they have the right to receive it. In the context of prostitution, this means that the prostitute gives up her human right to determine whom she has sex with as soon as she accepts a client. Legalizing prostitution, making it a regulated industry with the product involved being sex, means taking away a person's basic human right to choose who they have sex with (and when, and how) by making it an enforceable business contract. In the world of industry, denying a product or service to a client is fraud and is punishable by law. Do we want to make sex into a contract?

There is no human rights issue with sports. Someone doesn't want to play, then they can get out. Probably have to pay back much of their signing fee, but that's the extent of the consequences. There is no specter of fraud when an athlete quits.

[mondo joe]

128. Unless people are forced into prostitution - which NO ONE HERE would condone in any way -

one would still have a say over who they have sex with.

No one is required to do business with anyone just because that anyone is willing to pay. Many businesses refuse customers for a variety of reasons.

[mondo joe]

127. All work is trade in flesh. Whether you shoot baskets, mop floors or carry luggage, you

you are trading the work of your flesh for payment.

[Firespirit]

150. You really see labor and sex as the same thing?

Good lord.

The people who say "Legalize it and regulate it" really have not thought this through.

When you make sex something that anyone is obligated to provide, EVER, under ANY circumstances, you are opening the door for human rights abuses.

NO person has an inherent right to sex, be it in a relationship, marriage, or prostitute/client dealing. I cannot support any government system that changes that.

Right now there is no legal recourse when someone pays a prostitute before doing anything, and the prostitute runs off with the money -- because it is not a legal industry. Introducing government sanction opens the door for fines, prosecutions, and additional legal attacks on women (and a few men). Rather than the woman being the victim, the poor defrauded man gets the public sympathy. No thanks.

Would the government force a prostitute to have sex with a man after taking his money? No.

Would it foster an atmosphere of pressure and control within the sex trade, with the workers fearing to refuse a customer? Absolutely.

Would it open the door for a system in which clients could set up contracts with brothels, a "monthly sex fee," with the client entitled to that product? It could.

This is a human rights issue.

[mondo joe]

152. I don't imbue sex with magical powers.

Sex can be provided in exchange for payment like any other activity or service.

There are people who don't wish to make such an exchange but are pressured to do so. There are people who wish to make such an exchange but are legally prohibited from doing so.

This is a PRIVACY and AUTONOMY issue. No one should be forced to do any work they don't want to do. But neither should anyone be prohibited from using their own body as they see fit.

Neither you nor anyone else should have the right to prevent another adult from using their body as they see fit - be it in homosexual acts, in abortion, in prostitution, in drinking alcohol, in practicing celibacy, in tattooing it or anything else.

[Firespirit]

154. This is where we differ

You seem to be on the libertarian end of the spectrum. "If everyone consents, it's fine." I don't agree with that. Many times, the "consent" of one or more parties is extremely uninformed, or they feel that they have no other alternative. A husband can beat his wife, and she could have come from a religious or cultural tradition that condones that. She would be consenting fully. Would you not want social services to intervene in that situation? Is it legal if she thinks it's all right?

People can be mentally conditioned into giving up their human rights for a variety of reasons. Culture, religion, income, etc. I think it is a very grave mistake for a government to be hands-off about it and ascribe to the doctrine of "well if they consent it's OK no matter what it is." I support a society that protects people from themselves. Obviously there are limits to this, and it would need to be kept from becoming an authoritarian system, but the extreme libertarian "legalize everything" view is every bit as dangerous to the individual's rights as its opposite.

[mondo joe]

155. I'm pro-choice. I believe in the capacity of adult women to form consent.

Adult men too.

And after a lifetime of people deciding for others what is sexually acceptable, I have no taste for it. And there is nothing - NOTHING - more dangerous to civil rights than some people legally removing the agency of others.

[Firespirit]

156. Most women can consent

Not all. Some have been damaged psychologically. Have you been impoverished, feeling that you have no alternative but to do something that you would consider degrading if you were in better circumstances? Have you ever been driven to addiction? Have you ever been suicidal?

Desperation clouds an adult's ability to make good choices. When they are damaged and prepared to do something harmful to themselves, it's the moral thing to step in and prevent it. Not penalize the person making that choice, mind, but stop it from being done.

[mondo joe]

157. That's the same crap said by anti-choice people about abortion. They too want to protect

women "from themselves".

You are also mistaken in thinking this is libertarianism. It's not. Libertarian's argue against regulation - not for it.

Yes, there are damaged people. But they too have the right to make their own choices as adults. If they are so incapacitated as to not be able to make their own decisions, they should be institutionalized. If they aren't that incapacitated you ought to respect their agency and their own right to make their own choices.

If you want to join the Moral Police, be my guest - but I won't be joining you. True morality means giving people choices - not taking them away because you don't like them.

[Firespirit]

158. No, they don't

They want to protect the "unborn child." They couldn't give two shits about the woman.

I want to be sure we're on the same page with the definition of a "right." I do not think prostitutes should be jailed. I think they should have the legal "right" to do what they do. I would support decriminalization of it. But I do not support government sanction of it.

People are institutionalized for severe schizophrenia and other disorders that render them unable to perceive reality. That's it. Your "garden variety" depressive, bipolar, etc. people are not institutionalized, nor should they be. But these conditions and others do play havoc with their judgment.

An adult has the legal right to become an alcoholic, or to commit suicide. Ideally one should have the legal right to become addicted to marijuana or other drugs, and it's unfortunate that these behaviors result in jail time. But I do think that such destructive decisions should be prevented by social services whenever possible. I'm sorry that you disagree. But whether you like it or not, "leave people to exercise their right to harm themselves" is a libertarian philosophy.

[mondo joe]

159. Incorrect. They certainly claim they are protecting the women who abort.

You may not have been around enough to have heard it, but it is certainly an antichoice argument.

To clarify: "I think they should have the legal "right" to do what they do. I would support decriminalization of it. But I do not support government sanction of it."

I think if you are in any commerce there are rights and responsibilities that entail. This isn't "sanction". I further think workers have the right to choose to unionize, if they want to.

"Your "garden variety" depressive, bipolar, etc. people are not institutionalized, nor should they be. But these conditions and others do play havoc with their judgment."

Sure. But you have the right to make your own adult choices or you don't. If your judgment is SO impaired that you can't handle adult choices you should be institutionalized. Otherwise you have full adult rights.

"An adult has the legal right to become an alcoholic, or to commit suicide." Yes, they do, to a degree.

"Ideally one should have the legal right to become addicted to marijuana or other drugs, and it's unfortunate that these behaviors result in jail time." Yes.

"But I do think that such destructive decisions should be prevented by social services whenever possible. I'm sorry that you disagree. But whether you like it or not, "leave people to exercise their right to harm themselves" is a libertarian philosophy."

Again, incorrect. Simply leave people on their own is libertarian - that's not my philosophy. I support abundant free education, consumer and worker protection, and maximizing individual choice. That's not Libertarian by a long shot.

Now I cold certainly play your game and infantilize you. I could say your judgment is impaired by some fear of sex, or a loathing of men, or some other neurosis. But that wouldn't be nice, or fair to you. I'll opt to respect that you are an adult with your own choices an opinions, even if you don't care to extend the same to others.

[Firespirit]

160. One can hold libertarian viewpoints without ascribing to the full belief set

That aside, I think that if you set up prostitution as a regulated industry, you're opening the door for abuses. I hear the calls for forced STD testing in particular; this bothers me deeply. No other group of people is forced to undergo periodic testing for STDs, and there are plenty of people who have sex with a lot of different partners. That comes very close to the right wing calls for mandatory HIV testing of gay men. I just think government should stay away from people's crotches. It shouldn't be made illegal to do anything, but it shouldn't be a regulated industry.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as absolute objectivity. One's beliefs do color one's choices. And you can call me a misandrist if you want. It doesn't offend me. I own it fully. If you don't like my opinion, go right ahead and attribute it to that if you want.

[mondo joe]

161. I guess that means being pro choice on abortion, and same sex marriage makes me libertarian.

If it makes you feel better to designate people who disagree with you libertarian, have at it.

I won't call you a misandrist - I'd chalk you up to plain old authoritarianism.

:hi:

[Firespirit]

162. Pro choice IS libertarian

I think you missed the point of one of my posts, that an extreme libertarian nation is as harmful as a dictatorship. Doesn't make every libertarian idea bad, just the sum total of that ideology. Extremes = bad. Views on individual issues coming from a variety of sides = fine.

Chalk my stance up to authoritarianism if you want, but it's untrue. The alternative I gave you is true.

[mondo joe]

163. But since I don't advocate "extreme libertarianism" that's not material to this discussion.

Education, protection, regulation. Nothing extremely - or remotely - libertarian about that.

[eilen]

175. Thank you.

There is the "happy hooker" meme perpetuated by the Mayflower Madam (who profitted from trafficing human beings) and the Long Island housewife thing many years ago.

Socially, as paternalistic societies go, there are only two kind of women, the moral virgin types and the underclass whore, neither of which historically had much for rights being considered chattel and ignored when abused and raped (must have done something to deserve it huh?). I don't see prostitution as victimless.

Prostitution is owning someone to use as an object for a specific amount of time. Proponents here believe it is just fine for women to consent to be objects. Married women here seem to be more concerned about regulation and healthcare so that they won't get STDs while their husbands are objectifying legal prostitutes and freeing them from giving rim jobs and other objectionable sex acts (get that from your whore, honey, I'm to pure).

I think that encourages and perpetuates an underclass of people who are considered less than human.

Considering that our society has a big problem treating people with respect (ever waitress or work in customer service?), I'd hate to put young men and women in situations where they don't even have rights to body integrity. No matter how many turns of rationalization they have traveled to make them think what they are doing is fine, just a business transaction, just like an all night party. Maybe they been told having their genitals rubbed and being told they are giving pleasure are ways to know that people care about them when they were kids, who knows.

How many prostitutes can choose which customers they want? From what I understand, the legal pros in Nevada have to line up WHENEVER the bell rings in varying stage of undress -- of course it is the "customer" who picks.

[enlightenment]

192. Then please go read a bit more.

"How many prostitutes can choose which customers they want? From what I understand, the legal pros in Nevada have to line up WHENEVER the bell rings in varying stage of undress -- of course it is the "customer" who picks."

Although procedures differ slightly, the women who work in Nevada brothels ALL have right of refusal - for any reason. They do not respond to a "bell" in various stages of undress.

One drawback to the Nevada system is that brothel prostitutes are legally independent contractors. The reason being that the Nevada legislature doesn't want to take "that kind" of tax money from the brothels (because that would be admitting they're okay with it - as it stands they can play the "don't ask, don't tell" game). Because they are independents they don't get paid health, etcetera.

On the other hand, as independent contractors they aren't obligated to respond, like Pavlov's dogs, to a bell.

I don't know what kind of access to scholarly articles you have, but if possible, consider looking up some of the work that Barb Brents and Kate Hausbeck have done on the issue of legal brothel prostitution in Nevada. They are sociologists at UNLV and have published extensively on the subject.

[uppityperson]

123. Female here. Legalize it and regulate it.

I don't really care to hire a prostitute, either male or female, but I would be happy having it legalized AND regulated. Mandatory, easily accessible free STD checks would need to be part of it, licensed also. I have no problem with legalizing and regulating it since it is already easily available and unregulated.

[femrap]

129. I really wish people would respect other

people and not view them simply as receptacles/dildoes. I think Clinton's Surgeon General was correct for saying that people need to learn to MASTURBATE...of course she was fired.

I think there should be good paying jobs for young women so they don't have to go into such a dangerous occupation as prostitution.

[mondo joe]

131. There are men who go into the same line of work, despite them being men with all the associated

privileges. Some people prefer this line of work, however much it doesn't suit your plans for them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

134. i wish people would respect people who make choices differently than them

how i treat my body shouldnt have to reflect how you treat your body

[mondo joe]

137. It's a matter of privacy, and choice. The same narrow arguments are used by anti-choice

persons - that abortion is "degrading" or that women are pressured into it for economic or other reasons.

I still support the right of women to do with their bodies as they choose - even in an unfair world. Men too.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. agreed, i have 2 prostitute friends over the years, one boy and one girl,

i dont think they are immoral or disrespectful to themselves. i think they made career choices different to mine.

[Lorien]

153. The sad thing is that some WANT to be prostitutes. I used to live with one

She was a gorgeous girl from an upper middle class family, but for reasons unknown to me she hated her father and had a huge desire to control men. She seemed to think that her job as a high priced escort allowed her to do just that; that she was the one in control, and that she was using THEM. I pleaded with her to get into another line of work, and I even shot a portfolio for her to take to a modeling agency-but she had no intention of ever giving up her life as an escort (even though we were enrolled in the same art college). It was her choice so I tried to not make any commentary aside from "be safe" and "I'll do whatever I can to help you find something different to do". It was difficult because she was young and I worried about her all the time.

Personally, I'd rather healthy prostitutes be available to men who ONLY want sex than have to deal with those men myself. I'm single, and throughout my entire adult life I've been approached by men who only wanted sex from me and had no interest in a relationship (though they led me on for quite a while). On the flip side of that, I know that gold digging women are out there who will also feign love for a man to get at their wallets. Why not have EVERYTHING be above board? If some men only want sex and some women only want money, then let's get them together and leave the rest of us out of it!

[femrap]

164. Her father

probably abused her as a child...that is the case with most prostitutes. She learned very early that she was good for sex and for sex only. She rationalizes that sex gives her some control.

The gold digging would stop if women had equal access to the high paying jobs...or simply getting the same pay as the boys for doing the same job. Or better yet, start up your own enterprise and leave the corporate jerks to jerk off...lol.

I hope she is OK now...early adulthood is a time for extremes.

[Lorien]

167. The way she yelled at her father on the phone

didn't sound like a woman who had been abused. But since she only spoke Greek to her parents I never knew what she was yelling about.

I honestly don't believe that gold digging will ever stop, regardless of access to jobs (and I speak as a woman who had to work eighty hour weeks at a major corporation to finally earn her six figures). I know of at least one very beautiful young man who uses his beauty to "earn a living". There will always be beautiful people in the world who don't want to work like the rest of us, and use their looks to get what they want instead. It's a hell of a way to make a living, but ultimately not mine to judge.

[femrap]

185. It's a dangerous way to make a living

for a woman. Sure hope the women save their $$$ so they can retire at 40.

I read about a study a few years back where prostitutes were hypnotized. They were then asked if they would sell their bodies...and they all said 'no.' But who knows? I have no link. Just my memory.

I find the selling of one's body so sad...that this is how humans treat each other. I think animals treat each other with more respect and civility.

[woo me with science]

173. Yeah, and if she doesn't remember being abused, she probably

repressed or dissociated it. :eyes:

This paternalistic crap is really old. You have no idea what her childhood was like, and to make a leap like this is just silly.

[Name removed]

186. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

195. Was that outburst really necessary? -nt

[femrap]

196. In the words of

Robert DeNiro, 'Was I talking to you?'

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

205. No, and you weren't talking to the mods either. Not that it made a difference. -nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

132. Legalize it. Period.

[Catchawave]

141. It's legal in Nevada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonlite_Bunny_Ranch

I think legalizing both prostitution and marijuana will not only take a bite out of crime (and prison populations), but the taxes will help local communities.

It wasn't that long ago gambling and booze were federal offenses!

[LWolf]

143. Yes.

It should be legal and highly regulated to assure health, safety, and workers' rights. Customers as well as prostitutes should carry an up-to-date health certification card.

[XemaSab]

147. I'm a woman and I say legalize it

Whether it's legal or illegal, it's going to happen, and it's really just 17th century Puritanism that gives us pause.

If it's legal you get rid of or diminish a lot of the problems associated with it: drugs, rape, violence, diseases, and about 10 other things. You can have clean girls living in safe houses where they aren't owned by pimps and they can be honest about their work.

If it's legal you can charge a ho-tax and the state can make money off it too. :P

I have no interest in male prostitutes.

As far as marital infidelity goes, it happens now and I can't see legalization increasing it appreciably.

[Chovexani]

148. Legalize, tax and regulate the hell out of it.

And put money into education programs so that the only people (because people of all genders are involved in prostitution and service customers of all genders) who choose sex work are those who want to, and not those who feel like they don't have any other choice.

The way I feel about sex work is the same way I feel about abortion. I would never do it, but it should be safe, legal, and rare for those who choose to. Get the pimps and mafia out of the equation. Give the sex workers legal recourse if they are abused--let them unionize. And go after the human traffickers.

[pfitz59]

166. keep separate accounts....

step out on your own.
monoganmy is a fiction!

[alphafemale]

168. Criminalizing consensual acts is absurd.

Making prostitution legal would insure that it WAS nearly always consensual to my way of thinking.

[zanne]

174. It would also help to control the rate of STD's...

As a woman, I've always thought that prostitution should be legal for everyone. As far as a man being unfaithful, women can be unfaithful with a prostitute, too. It's a matter of cheating. I don't see any difference between having sex with a coworker or having sex with a prostitute. Cheating is cheating, period. Prostitutes would have better protection from disease, violence and their assault and muder cases would be taken more seriously.

[defendandprotect]

169. Generally, I'm for legalizing prostitution . . . .

I think we'd have to hear all the arguments for and against ---

but, it would seem to be the way to remove organized crime from the picture ---

and actually put the business in female hands, lessening possibilities for forcing

women into the profession.

As far as wives or girlfriends reactions to this, what about husbands and boyfriends reactions
to professional sexual services for females --- ????
You failed to ask that question ---

My own opinion is that I think there has to be honesty in relationships --- so if either the husband or the wife use professional services, they would have to have discussed and agreed to this.
In other words, neither should be doing this without the other partner knowing. You couldn't
enforce that, of course ---

I also feel that women wouldn't want something just like what is being offered to males --
And women would have a greater need to feel safe in the situation, IMO.
I'd also be interested to hear what females here have to say on this issue ---

[WinkyDink]

181. I say: How many women would become prostitutes if they had similar-paying other job options?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

182. i think the higher end of prostitution would still exist.

[alphafemale]

183. Yeah. We'd have teachers out the wazoo if it paid $5K an hour.

Like that's going to happen.

I don't think it's a bitter pill for all women in the sex industry though. Your statement seems like these women would do something else if they had the chance. I don't think that is necessarily true.

It is a line of work with a pretty damn early "mandatory" retirement though. Maybe we should teach them about investments?

[mondo joe]

188. There are male prostitutes as well, making a living primarily with gay male customers.

Like female prostitutes, some are desperate and poor, others pretty high end.

Having all the male privileges didn't prevent them from being prostitutes.

At the high cost end of the spectrum, both male and female prostitution would still exist even in a society with greater economic opportunity.

[defendandprotect]

208. Homsexuals had "all the male privileges" . . . and you're gay ---??? !!!

As far as I know, homosexuals have generally been oppressed and degraded ---
especially by organized patriarchal religions . . .

We're still not quite out of those harmful times ---
teenaged homosexuals --- especially males, evidently, are still commiting suidide --
and in many schools discussions of homosexuality as something normal are taboo.

Even life itself isn't necessarily safe for homosexuals ---
Matthew Shepard's death was only in 1998 --- ten years ago!!!

Where do you live?

[mondo joe]

210. What makes you think male prostitutes with gay customers are necessarily

gay themselves?

[pitohui]

190. there is already easy availability of prostitution

i guess i don't understand your question, do you seriously believe that any man who wants to buy a whore has ever failed to find one anywhere in america?

as far as legal or not legal, there are areas in this country where it is legal, such as certain nevada counties, and the whores seem to vote with their feet to work elsewhere, so i have to assume that the whores don't want to make it all on their backs -- they want to continue to make it also by tax fraud, by "rolling" (robbing) the guy, and so forth, not just by providing a safe legal service for pay

as far as male prostitutes, they service other men not women, anyway as a woman i don't respect a man who would hit me up for money and couldn't imagine being aroused by a man who needed money from me to have sex, that just seems soooo unmasculine, most women i'm personally aware of who have paid companionship it's much more than sex, the guy has to be an escort, live in companion, travel companion and so on (these are wealthy women and they are paying for a full package not just for a guy to pop some viagra and go thru the motions)

i guess at the end of the day i don't care if it's legal or not, seems it should be legal and regulated, but for the most part, american whores don't seem to want it enough and if they don't care why should i? there's a war on, lots of bigger issues

a husband visiting a stripper or a whore should be grounds for divorce, of course, but that is between the husband, the wife, and the courts

[La Lioness Priyanka]

193. how do you know 'american whores' dont want it badly enough?

[lame54]

200. Compare these two professions...

one is legal and
one is not
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3004067