Conservatism Is Dying

[LaStrega]

Conservatism Is Dying

Modern conservatism is dying. There’s still an election to be held, but conservatism as we’ve known it since Ronald Reagan is failing—ground down in the desert of Iraq, drowned in the floods of Hurricane Katrina, foreclosed by the housing crisis and poisoned by toys imported from China.

The American people are figuring this out. While conservatives repeat their time-worn slogans—“small government, low taxes, high security”—the American people are living the consequences.

We’ve seen eight years of a conservative presidency, six years overlapping with a conservative Congress, and 30 years of broadly conservative ideology. Now reality is showing how the values embodied in those slogans have been betrayed.

Full Article

[meow2u3]

1. Kenneth Galbraith(sp?) said it best

Conservatism is nothing but a moral justification for selfishness.

[Prefer]

2. William F Buckley is keeping it alive

[tachyon]

3. Unfortunately for him it couldn't return the favor

;-)

[awoke_in_2003]

49. That deserves a DUzy award

[Narkos]

4. Oh, I beg to differ

Conservatism and the psychology that drives is far from dying. It may be unpopular, but if there's one thing we can count on, it is the ability of conservatism to remain a potent force in the American psyche. I'm sure people thought that conservatism was done when the New Deal became an uncontested success story, but these guys have are too organized, are too passionate, and simply have too much money to count them out. Unfortunately we will have to contend with conservatism for a long time, even when it's clear that their ideas are a failure. The solution is to never get complacent, change the frames with which they use to misinform the American public, and remain on the offense indefinitely. We handed them too many easy victories, we simply can't afford to do that again.

[Kitty Herder]

41. Amen.

[Echo In Light]

54. True. The propaganda effort has failed, but the motivations remain in an oligarchy/phony democracy

[angrycarpenter]

5. It may be dying as a political movement

But greed and selfishness will be with us always. As long as corporate greed and capitalist dogma are the sole motivating factors in politics these people will continue to dominate our country. No matter what political party they allow us to have in power.

[femmocrat]

6. I have waited for 24 years for the pendulum to swing back.

The article is well worth reading.

K & R

[Xipe Totec]

7. I've yet to figure out what the conservatives are conserving

other than compassion, which they conserve for themselves alone.

[skooooo]

8. and it's dying an ugly death....

FINALLY

[RedCappedBandit]

9. idk, my university is packed with conservatives. nt

[Hissyspit]

15. Where is your university? Mine is too, it's embarassing.

The amount of willful ignorance.

[RedCappedBandit]

64. SUNY Oswego

It disgusts me, really.

Dunno why I came up here :p

Bunch of chicken hawks. Don't want taxes. Support the war that costs us billions.
Yeah, they're a really bright bunch. :sarcasm:

[Warpy]

16. Universities in the early 70s were packed with lefties.

Don't take it too seriously. The early 70s kids got squashed by their elders who were appalled at the drug scene and the protests and what they saw as the anti Americanism of spoiled youth.

These kids will be dismissed as a bunch of scared little rabbits who don't know what they're talking about.

[DS1]

10. Conservatism is built on the idea that if you work hard, and work even harder

You will make lots of money. Sure, being successful requires time and energy. Lots of people work hard every day, and the most they can look forward to is becoming grocery baggers after they retire to supplement their Social Security checks.

The problem is, that when Democrats get back in office, and try enforce some spending discipline and raise taxes, all the blame will fall on Democrats, while retirees eat cat food.


It takes a colossal fuckup like Bush, hopefully, to change the entire thinking process of this country. Because if we don't reevaluate everything in front of it, after the crash, then we're really done.

We can survive this recession. Our "CEO" class of people need to have their salaries knocked down by 90% and that money needs to go right back into the company. Let everyone eat at least a slice of cake. Put those extra millions back into US companies that pay these assholes, such as paying the hourly workers one dollar an hour more, so they'll have more to spend. Pay them just a little bit more of your share, you greedy fucking bastards, and they'll support your mansions - JUST AS LONG as they have a place to live and raise their own family.


It's just that easy. It's been said that Obama is lucky to be who he is. I wish I were him, and the likely candidate for Pres. But I'm not. I'm far too logical. See Kucinich. My first choice.

[elocs]

11. We could be at the point where the Republican Party could be marginalized

or actually become a fringe political party. Instead we have the vitriolic, pouty Obama/Clinton supporters pissing match where the losers claim they will not vote for the Democratic winner, enhancing the chances of a McCain victory. Then we will be left with a Republican president who can set the agenda and keep us in eternal warfare with unlimited billion$ for bombs and bullets, but not healthcare or education and we will have a Democratic majority in Congress that is not big enough to override a presidential veto. In the meantime we allow Republicanism/conservatism to reconsolidate and enhance their power even when it is not in the self interest of millions who continue to vote for them.

Our children will look back on us (Democrats) and the opportunity we have now and ask, "What in the hell were you people thinking?"

[jobycom]

12. I think we are at a state where the definitions are being changed altogether.

The Reagan conservatism is withering because of its obvious failure to achieve its goals, but it is also failing as the demographics of this nation are changing. Reaganism was based on the dominance (number-wise) of white protestant males and a few misguided females over all other single groups, so that socially it did not have to worry about fighting racism or sexism. It embraced both, and embraced all forms of bigotry against people not of the dominant group--male, white, non-gay, protestant or at least Christian, etc.

That can no longer win, as even W had begun to accept, with his early attempts to win black and Latino/a voters by appointing Rice, Powell, Gonzales, etc. Still, W's changes were superficial appointments of token minorities acceptable to the traditional Republican base. Honestly, I give him credit for that, because he did break down a few barriers. Every time one of the hurdles is crossed, we no longer have to fight the battle again. Can a black quarterback succeed? Warren Moon answered that. Can a black quarterback win the Super Bowl? Doug Williams. Can a black general rise to the highest post in the military and be followed by white subordinates? Colin Powell. The questions themselves are stupid, but many people still ask them until they are answered, and once answered, the question goes away. In a small way, Bush, not really intentionally, helped Obama by wiping away a few more questions about race and leadership in the minds of the most hesitant whites in America. Bush didn't do much, and his actions on the economy and Katrina and his wars and a host of other arenas certainly were destructive to the cause of equality. But he did do something. That's better than Reagan. Bush overall, though, followed Reagan's brand of conservatism.

That just won't work anymore. In terms of wealth and numbers, white males are not as clearly dominant anymore. So conservatives will have to change their basic assumptions on society to have a chance of winning, or having anyone listen to their message.

Liberals, though, are having to change, too. Or at least, the Democratic Party will have to. The old Democratic Party and the old liberal ideology worked on the assumption that non-whites had to be saved. They had to be pulled up to equal with whites. Past travesties had to be overcome, forcibly. Segregation had to be ended, education had to be universal, discrimination in housing and the workplace had to be destroyed. Now, with white power becoming weaker, and with the hardest edges of blatant, government-enforced racism being weakened (we still need major prison/law enforcement reform, though), the battles are changing. It's now more of a question of how to integrate than how to desegregate. And white arrogance has to yield to the realization that whites no longer have to save non-whites, but now have to include them, even consider them as superiors in many situations. Liberalism on social issues also is changing, as our current primary proves.

In the past liberals wanted to see a black president, or a female president, but there was always an attitude that we would have to sort of help them out, elevate them, help them get elected. You know, white man's burden stuff. Now we have Obama and Clinton, both of whom kicked in the political door and said "Screw that, I'm not waiting for you to appoint me, I'm just taking the job." Liberalism isn't just for white people anymore. (It never was, but you see what I mean, I hope).

With the changing social conditions, other lines will be redrawn. African Americans have for decades voted almost exclusively Democrat, and and white liberals have made the mistaken assumption that this meant blacks were more liberal than whites, or that most African Americans were liberals, even progressives, at heart. Obviously this isn't true--African Americans have ideologies as diverse as white folk, but the larger issues of inclusion and equality made them vote with the Dems, even when the Dems moved too slowly and too incompletely. Now, though, that's changing. If Obama wins, it will be because black voters put him in office, and white Democrats went along for the ride. African American ideological diversity (and I haven't even gotten into Latino/a diversity and its impact on the party) may start to change the party from within, moving the party more to the center or even the right on some issues, while moving it to the left on many social issues.

Anyway, you get the idea of what I'm saying. Both parties are going to shift, and not just to the left or right. Some issues will realign, so that both parties shift to the right on some and the left on others, and the whole meaning of right and left will realign. It's happening now, and it's happening fast. Don't just look at Clinton and Obama, look at Ron Paul. Here's a right wing conservative against all forms of government spending. This causes him to oppose aid to Katrina victims--a conservative view--and to vehemently oppose the Iraqi war--a very progressive view.

The Republicans chose McCain over the religiously conservative Huckabee and the economically conservative Romney and the diplomatically conservative Giuliani. McCain is a moderate--not moderate enough for our tastes, of course, but for the Republican Party, he is. He had to make some conservative promises, of course, but he's not an extremist on most Republican issue--he just leans to the right, without rushing against the wall. Reaganism is dead, in that regard.

We are going to choose Obama or Clinton. Neither is a true leftist, both are basically moderates. We have two moderates leaning left battling to face a moderate leaning right. The extremes are being ignored because the extremes do not have clear enough identities to dominate an election, or to vote as a significant block. The extremes don't work anymore, for either party. That won't last, it just means those on the left and the right will have to reevaluate, and discover what they still agree on. But for now we are in a drastic ideological shift, reminiscent of the 30s or the 60s, when changing realities wiped away entrenched ideologies. Some of the ideologies never changed, but many shifted. It's why some people say that the parties switched from liberal to conservative and vice versa.

I know no one's still reading. :) I just like to babble. Probably wrong, as usual.

[OnyxCollie]

14. I read it.

Makes sense to me. Thanks for the post.

[Narkos]

18. What is that a picture of by the way?

[OnyxCollie]

38. It's a pic of O'Brien and Winston Smith from "1984".

Unless you were referring to my avatar, which I stole from Godflesh.

[lonestarnot]

20. Dead to me!

:applause:

[OnyxCollie]

36. Noooooooo!

[lonestarnot]

43. bwwwaa hahahah haha ha

:rofl: again!

[LaStrega]

22. On the contrary!

I read every word. Very well thought out. Very well stated. Very well written.

Well done!

*doffs hat*

:hi:

:toast:

[LaStrega]

24. p.s. I wish I could rec a reply :) n/t

[Lorien]

33. I see it as two candidates who lean to the right

and one who is close to the far right. The left as I knew it decades ago no longer exists in American politics (except in "fringe" candidates like Kucinich, who also states that there is only one party in DC).

[Buns_of_Fire]

53. Read every word. For what it's worth, I thought it excellent.

:thumbsup:

[TML]

13. Cool

As cold as it sounds, it's time to kick them while they're down because that's what they did to us. No, don't scream that this is not what we do. If you want to survive, you give as good as you get. We've taken a lot during the past eight years and it's time to feel charitable and give back. :evilgrin:

[yorgatron]

21. kick'em while they're down!

i like THAT idea.
ther only time we should reach across the aisle is to smack somebody! :grr::mad:

[LaStrega]

25. *cackle*

That literally made me laugh out loud. }(

[Bjorn Against]

17. Actually conservatism is already dead, it died the day Reagan took power

Since then conservatism has been replaced with another ideology called fascism.

[Juche]

19. I am cautiously optimistic

I want modern conservatism to die a humiliating, thrashing death so it can't screw up my country anymore and if at all possible see its leaders put in prison for the crimes they have committed, but I am not 100% convinced of it yet.

As other poster(s) have said, america is becoming too multicultural to be reagan conservative anymore. The contemporary movement conservatives have managed to alienate and piss off

black people
latinos
people under 30
college educated women
poor and working class people
non-christians
GLBTs
moderates

They don't realize that bigotry against anyone who isn't an upper middle class WASP evangelical doesn't work if more than 51% of the public doesn't consist of WASPs. Maybe in the 60s when latinos barely existed, black people didn't vote and everyone was christian. But if you look at voter demographics almost every race & religion that isn't WASP votes democrat at this point.

I have read a variety of interesting things over the years about the (hopeful) death of conservatism

1. Over half of republicans are now over 55 (ie older people who are set in their ways), which means that once they hit their 60s and start collecting tens of thousands a year in medicare & SS they may tone down their conservatism

2. The GOP may have lost an entire generation of voters. From 1996-2002 young people voted slightly liberal, by 2004 they gave liberals a 10% margin, by 2006 it was a 22% margin (it is even a 50 point margin in new england for people born after 1977, they vote dem 3-1 over the GOP). So this entire generation taht makes up 1/4 of the electorate (36% by the middle of the next decade) may never view conservatism well.


So hopefully, by 2015 or so, many of the republicans will be in retirement and will tone down their 'welfare is evil' schtick, and at the same time a generation of young voters will be voting liberal. Plus liberals are so much stronger on the issues (taxes, economy, energy, justice, education).

But never underestimate how easy it is to mislead voters. "republicans will cut my taxes" is something I hear alot even though when pressed none of the GOP supporters I know can provide any evidence that this is true, that they understand how big the budget is, what the money is spent on, or how much dems will cut their (middle class) taxes. So as long as the electorate is misinformed conservatism will persist.

[Adsos Letter]

26. I live in northern california, so my observation may only represent a skewed demographic...

but the kids in my CSU courses express overwhelmingly moderate/left positions, with much more emphasis upon the left. An off-the-cuff (and definitely unscientific) guess at the ratio would be about 80/20. Almost all of them are politically awake (in the sense that they actually hold opinions about political issues) and give the impression of being anxious to vote this election cycle (it will be the first time for most of them).

Experiencing a course on "The American Creed," which examines the evolution and differing strands of what is interpreted as "Americanism," is certainly an eye-opener with these younger people, as it gives some insight into what THEY are willing to say they think it means to be an American today.

[LaStrega]

29. I know my daughter is ...

anxious to vote (this'll be her first time)

w00t!

Get out & vote you young peeps! :bounce:

[LaStrega]

27. "republicans will cut my taxes"

then they'll tax and borrow and rack up huge interest

dumbasses

and they'll :nuke: countries that don't pose a threat to us

:mad:

[Juche]

32. I don't get it either

I have tried explaining how Obama is proposing a 4k/yr tax credit for college, a 1k/yr tax cut for middle class families and investing in energy and healthcare technology that will save middle class families several thousand dollars a year on energy and healthcare. But they still think a token $30/month (while millionaires get 100k tax cuts) under a republican means their taxes are lower.

[LaStrega]

35. *shrug* *brow furrows* I don't get it either n/t

[here_is_to_hope]

23. It was already dead, I told you guys, ZOMBIES!!11!!! eom

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Nonsense. It will always be undead.

!!

[LaStrega]

34. But it doesn't hurt to be at least *cautiously* optimistic, does it?

I mean, a girl can dream, can't she?

*eyes glaze over*

:hi:


(on edit: added 'at least')

[OmahaBlueDog]

30. Hmmmmmm

I still think many Americans want small government and low taxes. I think many Americans still believe truisms -- not truths about government (ex: "We could balance the budget if we could just end welfare and tell those illegals to go back to Mexico." "If we had national healthcare, it would work as well as Medicaire and have paperwork as complicated as the IRS" "If we just got some leaders with some common business sense, and get those liberals the Hell out of Washington, we could make this right." "If Liberals are elected, all they'll do is raise our taxes and take our guns").

...and, I think there is a group that we confuse with conservatives who are more aptly described as theocrats. They want to make the US into the Christian equivalent of Iran.

I think both of these groups are alive in well...

BUT.. I also think there a lot of people who are conservatives, who truly subscribe to the principles espoused by people like Goldwater, who see that the current Republican party is infected. The current Republican party has become too beholden to narrow big corporation interests, it has become too arrogant, and it has become too incompetent. Hillary Clinton has a much better chance of balancing a budget than John McCain -- and I think a lot of them know it.

[Aristus]

31. And it's taking us (U.S.) down with it. We're an empire in decline.

I predict that within fifty years, we'll see a rash of secession movements across the nation. Texas and the South will go again (this time, fucking LET them!), New England may decide to break off into their own country. There are parts of me that would like to see the the sovereign nation of Cascadia become fact as well as fantasy. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_%28independence_movement%29 )

We're too big, too unwieldy, too much at the mercy of a tiny group of ultra-wealthy, ultra-powerful monsters to remain what we spent 230 years becoming. There is too much hate, too much lurching after a vision of "America" that is fifty years out of date and never really existed in the first place.

South Carolina wants to be a haven for believers in a "Ten Commandments" government. Let them go.

Texas wants to return to a mythical shoot-em-up cowboy daydream of white Protestant supremacy. Let them go.

Kansas wants to forbid the teaching of knowledge in their schools. Let them go.

Florida wants to bulldoze flat its breathtaking natural wonders and replace them with luxury condos. Let them go.

Indiana doesn't seem to care that it is a morass of insipid, white-bread provincialism. Let them go.

Montana seems to welcome every raging nutball with a chip on his shoulder, a gun in his hands, and a desire in his tiny, underdeveloped heart for starting a "Just Me" township. Let them go.

Let them all go. A Balkanized America won't be any better than a United States. But how could it be any worse? I mean, look around at what we've become...

God! I FOUGHT for this country! I've believed in it. Thought we were getting better all the time. What has happened??????

[mwb970]

56. America will definitely break apart at some point.

The history of such divisions tends to be bloody (India/Pakistan, anyone?). How do we think we will avoid a massacre?

Once America no longer stretches alone, "coast to coast", we will have lost our key geographical advantage. Significant decline will inevitably follow.

I am so glad I am 58 today instead of 14! We had the Beatles. I don't even want to think about the future today's kids will grow up through.

[magellan]

37. I won't be happy till they're burying it six feet under. n/t

[LaStrega]

40. Yup. R.I.P.

On second thought ... no rest no peace. Just die!

[jzodda]

39. People are starting to see through the veil that clouded our brains

It has taken long enough. We have been in a dark era since around 1980, maybe even 1976 when they became super active. I think even their supporters are seeing as a bankrupt philosophy. It has and is a ploy to keep rich people rich at the expense of the rest of us. It has gotten so bold that they no longer care about selling the rest of us down the river to keep getting richer and their friends richer. I look at it in mostly economic terms. We have had to break through with those blue dog dems who switched sides over the last 25 years or so. I think they now see it for what I mentioned above. Our country has become like a giant pyramid scheme that was bound to collapse. Well now its happening, and the fallout will be huge. I think we are in for some bad times ahead before we turn things around.

The right spent so much time trashing Europe and now we can clearly see that the EU is doing so so so much better in every way then we have been doing. Their higher tax rates help finance a system that mostly works for its people. Here, the system seems and feels to actually work against people. The turnaround in my view was Hurricane Katrina. It opened the eyes of many people for the first time that our government has been gutted so its no longer effective. Republicans fail to finance gov and then rail against it when it does not perform, the perfect self fulfilling prophecy.

[LaStrega]

42. "I think we are in for some bad times ahead before we turn things around."

A friend of mine is an economical analyst, he told me yesterday that he predicts the first quarter of '09 will show a bit of improvement, then the bottom will drop out and we'll be cast into the worst recession seen in his or my lifetime. :scared:

If such is the case, there's no way I'll make it through. :cry:

[Zynx]

50. There's never been an economic crisis we haven't survived.

[LaStrega]

63. Bless your heart for that! The glass is half-full dammit!

Unfortunately, I'm afraid *I* won't survive the impending economic crisis. :(

Gods I'm 42 and if this all comes to pass, I'll be living with my mother.

I mean, she's a great gal, and great fun ... but how fucking sucky is that?! Moving in with yer mum at 42 freaking years old?!

[calimary]

44. Kick!

I just cross-promoted you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3014654

You present a manifesto outlining the problem in detail. Above is a link to an article that describes what we can do to fix that many-headed problem, even though it will be a colossally big and long-running job.

[LaStrega]

45. Thanks!

:yourock:

:hi:

:toast:

[Joey Liberal]

46. Conservatives hate freedom.............n/t

[LaStrega]

58. conservatives = the new terrorists i.e. they hate our freedom n/t

[Oldtimeralso]

47. The Good Old USA

Where the greedy take from the needy!

[fascisthunter]

48. Conservatism has Morphed into Fascism

Conservatism as a label worked well for them up until now.

[Echo In Light]

55. Exactly. That's what the term is, an Orwellian semantic-disguise for the obvious

[LaStrega]

59. hunt 'em down ... I'll pay ya ... barter style even (haven't got two nickels to rub together) n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

51. Actually, conservatism might be poised for a renaissance.

Bush et al aren't conservatives in any meaningful sense of the word. They're far-right extremists. Barry Goldwater was a conservative; next to today's so-called 'conservatives' he comes off looking like a leftist.

[LaStrega]

60. agreed ...

as does McPain ... hence the Coulter suedo-endorsing the white lady in his stead.

(note: it's not about sex, it's not about race, it's about getting a Dem in teh WH m'kay?)

[crimsonblue]

52. Thank God for that...

maybe we can get back to the old conservatism of Goldwater (minus the racism). It's high time that republicans take their party back from the crazy jesus freaks who have hijacked it.

[many a good man]

57. We need to drive a wooden stake through the heart of Movement Conservativism

NOW is the perfect time. I don't see it happening.

[LaStrega]

61. ...

:-(

:hurts:


:banghead:


:mad:


:cry:


I've decided I'm only going to speak via emoticons today. Fuck everybody at work ... they can :argh: for all I care.

[lovuian]

62. I think the Republican Party after this will be completely

destroyed

[LaStrega]

65. Here's hoping! n/t