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I have been wondering, and worrying about leveraged corporate debt (as another domino)

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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:05 PM
Original message
I have been wondering, and worrying about leveraged corporate debt (as another domino)
Over the bush years, there seems to have been an escalation of leveraged corporate buyouts. Given what we learned about the "fancy" structures used to hide debt ala Enron, and what we have learned about the effect of easy credit (due to the feds low rate binging that led to lower concerns for the ratio of risk on financing that contributed to the sub prime crisis), I have had this long-standing worry.

So I did a little googling - learned some, but most of what I found went back to analyses of the junk bond era. So then I tried news.google - to see what has been written about the topic in the last month, as the severity of the credit crises has become more clear. Here are some of the items that I found:

Moody's Say Older Debt
May Carry More Risk
By ANDREW EDWARDS
March 13, 2008 11:42 a.m.

Moody's said many older corporate leveraged loans' terms were "relaxed" in the loose-credit markets of the last two years, implying that older-vintage debt deals may not be as safe as previously thought.

Loans from 2006 and early 2007 -- when buyout shops were piling on leverage willy-nilly, and second liens were in vogue -- were thought to be at the heart of the projected deterioration in corporate credit, but Moody's research implies that the trouble may go deeper.

"Because of the large number of easing amendments, these older-vintage loans should not be considered safer than those loans issued when looser lender protections prevailed," said Moody's Senior Vice President Neal Schweitzer.

The loans -- going as far back as 1999 -- were amended to alleviate "financial stress caused by deteriorating fundamentals or to accommodate merges and acquisitions or leveraged buyouts" in 2006 and the first half of 2007.

More at: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120542116929933513.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


Note - that line - changing (relaxing loose credit standards) to finance debt - to accommodate mergers and acquisitions or leveraged buyouts. Does this mean that the lack of due diligence we have seen in lenders (from mortgage brokers, to the rating organizations and the investors) in the sub prime debacle was also running amok in corporate refinancing to allow for some of the mega mergers and buyouts of the last year or so?

Want to feel better? Some of the big players are now turning their eyes to the "opportunities" presented with corporate debt. Read on from just the other day:

Apollo Turns to Distressed Debt, Including LBOs (Update1)

By Jason Kelly

March 12 (Bloomberg) -- Apollo Management LP adapted to the leveraged-buyout freeze by investing $1 billion in distressed securities, including the debt of companies it already owns, founder Leon Black told investors.

``We are doing exactly what you would expect of us in this market -- using our distressed expertise and appetite for complexity to find investments in good companies that are available at significantly discounted levels,'' Black wrote in a Feb. 29 letter to clients of the New York-based firm.

Apollo's most recent funds are ``in very good shape,'' Black wrote, even though the buyout of real-estate services firm Realogy Corp. has been hurt by the worst housing market in a quarter century and its Linens 'n Things Inc. and Claire's Stores Inc. are struggling as retail sales growth slows. Fund V, a $3.8 billion pool started in 2001, has returned 3.5 times invested capital, according to Black. Holdings of the $10.1 billion Fund VI were valued at $1.5 billion above cost as of Dec. 31.

---

Black's view on distressed investing was echoed by Blackstone Group LP founder Stephen Schwarzman, who told investors on a March 10 conference call that his New York-based firm is eyeing leveraged loans it considers unfairly discounted by investors amid broader credit-market worries.

``Leveraged loans is a very interesting area and getting more interesting,'' Schwarzman, 61, said. ``Some of it is trading at distressed debt levels and it happens not to be distressed. It's a distressed market.''

more at: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a0k_z4K3RK2c&refer=home


Sounds like more trying to make oodles of money, on "complex" structures and deals that no one can understand, in order to suck even more equity out of the overall economy - now with corporate entities being the target.

Now lets read an item about the firms that have been doing the buyout/merger mega deals of late:

March 11, 2008
Buyout Industry Staggers Under Weight of Debt
By MICHAEL J. de la MERCED
With their big paydays and bigger egos, private equity moguls came to symbolize an era of hyper-wealth on Wall Street.

Now their fortunes are plummeting.

Celebrated buyout firms like the Blackstone Group and Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Company, hailed only a year ago for their deal-making prowess, are seeing their profits collapse as the credit crisis spreads through the financial markets.

Investors fear that some of the companies that these firms bought on credit could, like millions of American homeowners, begin to buckle under their heavy debts now that a recession seems almost certain. The buyout lords themselves suddenly confront gaping multibillion-dollar losses on their investments.

---

Blackstone and others argue they can run these businesses more efficiently — and therefore more profitably — than they could as public companies. Now, the bankers and investors who financed the boom in corporate takeovers are running for the exits. Loans and junk bonds that deal makers used to pay for the acquisitions — debts that must be repaid by the companies, not the deal makers — are sinking in value.

more at: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/business/11equity.html?_r=1&ei=5087&em=&en=7cbba3cefda33d19&ex=1205380800&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin



Folks, this is not being written about on the front pages, but buried more in business sections. This has the possibility of taking down a lot of businesses. While all the news is on the sub prime crisis and the buyouts (ala the feds) of the hedgefunds for the mortgage-backed debt, there is little attention to the activities that look like they are escalating. Much of this is being done by private equity groups - which I would guess means less regulation.

I call out to DU. Let's get educated on this ASAP. Then what? Call congress (hearings? Need for regulations?) Call the media? I don't know - but we saw the problems in the housing market two or more years ago when we (as a community) would write and warn about the dangers of the 'exotic' new lending for mortgages (new in that they did not used to be mass marketed) per the ARMS an no-down payments.

This seems to be a newer development - but one that could suck out the value of many, many corporations. And what would that do to the economy? There just isn't enough money to keep "buying out" the crises. I hate to sound alarm bells (when so many are already ringing). Or perhaps I am misreading all of this.

Thoughts? Comments?



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justinsb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Corporate debt is a big one but
National Debt is the real kicker - if the US dollar falls too far many foreign governments (China and Saudi Arabia for example) may decide that it's not worth holding US debt. or US currency reserves - if one moves to reduce their holdings in dollars it may well set off a chain reaction and as people rush to cash in the US dollar and US debt will go into free fall, causing rapid inflation and making it difficult for the US to do any further borrowing.
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Posting this in the "Economy" forum will get you more informed opinions I think. nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. and ensure that only people that are already paying attention will read it.
:kick: & R


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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Wow. Sure is snarky around here about anything and everything. The OP was looking for input and I
Edited on Sun Mar-16-08 06:28 PM by cyberpj
made what I thought might be a helpful suggestion.

I didn't mean that the item posted here should be withdrawn.

Wow.

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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. My mistake. Snark not intended, but it does read differently than it
sounded inside my head.
:hi:


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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thanks.
:hug:
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Indeed, but I rather hoped to get both input, but also
perhaps spur some discussion, or at least some thought and attention, to the issue to a more broad audience.

When DU was smaller, GD was a great place for "digging" threads, where folks would do a bit of digging on their own and add what they find to the thread. That was easier with a smaller posting population, so perhaps focusing in that forum is the best place at least to get informed information/opinions, even if it doesn't spur broader conversations.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think posts like this are essential to all of us.
If we are going to figure out a way to get us out of this snake pit we will need all the info and understanding we can muster.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I have been concerned about corporate debt since Enron - but had no idea
the degree to which it is now the thing to be "securitized" and sold as an exotic investment vehicle. We have seen how well that has worked with the subprimes - and now that the economy is weakening, I can only guess that it will become a repeat... with the big difference being that from the articles that I have just been reading, this is becoming the "new big thing" for the risk taking hedgefunds - and there is no question that those doing the investing *know* how this is going to turnout due to the object lesson of the subprime collapses. They don't care - they are simply looking for the next big thing to suck equity out of, and take big fees for, consequences to the economy (and all of the employees of the corps that will be at risk of going belly up) be damned.
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. My wife's sister is married to a big corp. bean counter
They were living in So Cal until about 8 months or so ago. They left right before things started really going in the toilet. I have known him for a long time and the last time they visited us, his mood had changed from a really easy going guy to being a bit snappy. They moved to Australia and I haven't been able to talk to him at length. I would like to ask him if he knew what was coming down the pipe and thats why they left so abruptly.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. for the sake of family serenity... I would urge asking those two questions
at seperate times. Take the one of what he saw (or didn't) coming down the pike - as an intellectual exercise. Then at another time, take on the dynamics of why the move. Just suggesting that the two together might make for a defensiveness that could make the communication in the relationship (at least for the tme) a bit stilted.

That said, I would be very interested in hearing his perspective (that is, if/when you get it, please share it - if you don't feel comfortable onboard - please pm - thanks.)
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Arctic Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I'm sure he would have no problem.
I think the problem will be with me trying to understand what he is explaining to me. He is a really smart guy and good at what he does.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Not misreading this at all. It is just one of the many significant weaknesses
in our Raygun economic model. All of these shell games and Ponzi schemes are being exposed now and the gurus are shitting their pants.

Once again, we will see that the liberals (as in progressive, socialist, in favor of the people over the ruling class) were right and the conservatives were wrong.




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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-16-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Sadly, there is little/no joy in being right on this one
the consequences of this and other reagenesque ideological fantasies - are so potentially dire to our country, its citizens, the world and the world's citizens. :mad:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-17-08 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. K&R!
:kick:
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