As the Supreme Court debates the 2nd Amendment, Joe Horn remains free

[jpljr77]

An update piece from the story of a man in Texas who shot -- in the back -- and killed two men who were leaving his neighbor's property after burglarizing the home: http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=6013534

He shot those men after the 911 dispatcher he was talking to pleaded for him to stay in the house, over and over again. He also told the dispatcher he couldn't let them get away with this and that he was going to kill them.

The quasi-good news is that charges may be coming at some point; the case is not totally dead.

[tachyon]

1. Joe is my hero.

If more people would blow criminals away there would be fewer of them.

[jpljr77]

2. Excellent point.

So now we should go grab some guns and start shooting known criminals in the back, huh?

[tachyon]

3. Front, back...mox nix

as they say. ;-)\

[jpljr77]

6. Should we also charge the families for the bullet? n/t

[winter999]

8. Don't forget punitive damages, too.

If this guy wasn't being a CRIMINAL, Joe wouldn't have shot him, now, would he?

[jpljr77]

11. So true.

If they had been arrested and convicted, I'm sure "shotgun blast to the back" would've been the sentence the judge handed down.

[jpljr77]

12. (replied to wrong message)

[Kerbouchard]

14. Judges and Juries

Yes, there is a system in place to assign consequences for illegal actions. Those people are highly educated and trained(slight sarcasm), but the fact is, those people are elected for the process. Joe Horn didn't have the ability to call character witnesses, or to consult case law. He told the thugs to stop, they took off running, towards him. If you don't think they ran towards him, how else did they end up on his property after exiting a neighbor's window?

If they would have stopped, sat down, sworn themselves in, called witnesses, and kindly explained what 2 illegal drug dealing miscreants were doing climbing out of his neighbors window with thousands of dollars worth of jewelry, then I would be upset that Mr. Horn shot them.

He made a split second decision. Juries routinely use several days to decide the innocence/guilt or punishment of criminals. Trials take weeks. He had a few seconds to react.

There is a reason why an individual citizen is not held to the same standards as our Judges. I'm happy for Joe Horn, and I for one feel safer knowing those miscreants will never invade another home.

[tachyon]

16. There are people on this board who refuse to believe there are any bad people.

Some of them don't even believe in self-defense. And no, I can't explain that kind of insanity.

[jpljr77]

19. Please show me one post where I refer to the two men as innocent.

In fact, I've gone out of my to call them burglars. They were. They were committing a crime, for which they should have been punished.

Are you saying the death penalty is the proper sentence for a home invasion/burglary?

[Lance_Boyle]

24. death is a known (and accepted) risk of home invasion. n/t

[jpljr77]

27. Arrest and prosecution is a known risk of shooting people in the back w/a shotgun. n/t

[tachyon]

40. I didn't name any names, but...if the shoe fits---

Stopping a home invasion with deadly force is not a "sentence", it's a logical response to a threatening situation.
Cops aren't able to protect citizens...they can only attempt to catch the perps after the fact.

[Squatch]

49. By the time they were killed, the home invasion was already over

"Cops aren't able to protect citizens...they can only attempt to catch the perps after the fact."

Let me modify that to show how ridiculous this is:

"Joe Horn isn't able to protect citizens...he can only attempt to kill the perps after the fact."

[tachyon]

51. I was responding to a specific comment which you obviously failed to grasp.

Try again.

[Squatch]

55. And I was responding to your asinine comment:

"Stopping a home invasion with deadly force is not a "sentence", it's a logical response to a threatening situation."

Joe Horn stopped nothing except the lives of two people who he assumed had committed a crime. By the time Horn hunted down and shot these two, any crime they may have allegedly committed was already over. In short, he is both a vigilante and a murderer.

[tachyon]

57. He's a hero. He did the world, even including you, a favor.

Sorry you aren't bright enough to see that.

[Squatch]

58. You've set the bar at "hero" pretty low, haven't you?

So, have YOU shot anybody in the back lately, tough guy?

[tachyon]

61. Not lately, sweetie.

...

[Squatch]

65. What...you don't want to be a hero like Joe Horn?

[Two Americas]

26. not at all

I can't speak for others, but your posts always remind me that there are people who are bad. People who support vigilante action, who have no respect for the law - while they hypocritically claim to be upholding the law - people who are violently opposed to all of the time-honored principles of justice, people who have contempt for due process, people who are opposed to trial by jury. Scary people. Hard to understand that kind of insanity.

[tachyon]

41. Yes, well you appear to be the one giving all the consideration to the robbers

so you will forgive me if I think you're suffering from diminished mental capacity.

[depakid]

39. "I can't explain that kind of insanity."

You do realize that most people in every other western nation consider people with attitudes like yours to be insane- and not only that, but quite rationally blame them for the endless- and escalating cycle of violence and senseless shootings, and creating the world's largest and most expensive prison system?

When people abroad ask me about it (and they inevitably do) I can't explain it to them... because it makes zero sense. With the healthcare "system" at least, I can describe the corruption in DC and various the states, but this collective dysfunction runs far deeper- to the point of being a pathological obsession.

[tachyon]

43. I don't live "abroad". Perhaps you would like to...I'm certainly not stopping you.

...

[depakid]

45. Already made that decision

and I can tell you, life is different in a sane country that chose to become a handgun free society.

Personally, my thoughts are that many Americans are basically cowards, living in a state of fear that prevents them from acting rationally about firearms policy- or most any other type of reform that's demonstrably needed.

For fear of "socialism," for fear of "terrorism," for fear of "the other" or- well, name the fear.

It's pervasive in the states. Not so in Oz.

[tachyon]

56. Joe didn't use a handgun, genius.

You live in Oz, Oregon?
:eyes:

[depakid]

66. Did I mention that pump action shotguns are also banned?

Like most Americans, you seem not to have a clue about anywhere other than your narrow corner of the world.

Since early March, I've been back in states- and just last night, there was a story on local news about all the shootings in North Portland, there are even pockmarks in the cafes from all the recent gunfire.

And that's Portland- a pretty mellow city.

This the sort of society you advocate, where people with enough of a reason get out their guns to solve "problems."

Obviously, you won't see that in New South Wales. Shootings- murders period- are rare. What you read in the papers (another mass shooting is typically the refrain) they come from America. And as I mentioned, people think you're insane, because after their last mass shooting (in 1996) the conservative government backed by an overwhelming popular majority instituted a massive gun buyback and major restrictions on licensing gun owners.

Enough was enough- and in typical Aussie fashion, they crafted a solution. This in a nation with every bit as much of a "frontier history" as America.

[NoGOPZone]

70. "There are people on this board who refuse to believe there are any bad people"

You know this how, from your two weeks of experience here?

[texasleo]

73. white = evil, color = good, according to the extreme left

[jpljr77]

17. Facts are your enemy, I'm afraid

You wrote:

He told the thugs to stop, they took off running, towards him. If you don't think they ran towards him, how else did they end up on his property after exiting a neighbor's window?

This, of course, is dead wrong. As captured on the 911 call, Joe shouted "Move, you're dead" (the comma commonly thought to represent the word "and") and then immediately fired 3 shots. Police have confirmed that the burglars were shot in the back. Unless they were running at him backwards -- which I admit would have been freakier than them straight rushing him -- your scenario is physically impossible.

There is a debate as to whether they were actually on his property. Even if they were, they were running AWAY from him when he shot them, and judging by the time elapsed on the tape between when he confronted them and when he fired, they had their backs to him when he came outside.

Joe Horn wanted to shoot himself some darkies that day...and he did, plain and simple.

[alarimer]

33. Only cowards shoot people in the back

as they are running. yeah you're such a real brave guy. Mr. Horn. Rot in hell.

[tachyon]

44. Oh, I get it. You only give a shit about these guys because they're "darkies."

Wonderful.

[jpljr77]

46. You certainly nailed that one.

My point was that Horn shot them only because they were "darkies."

I kind of think that goes hand in hand with the gun culture. Just my opinion, of course.

[tachyon]

53. You're right, I forgot...no darkies ever use guns.

:eyes:
Hey, it's YOUR word, Sparky.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpljr77]

63. Never said that, but these darkies didn't have guns.

And, they didn't have anyone to use them against in the first place. Remember, this was done:

At an empty house (known to be empty by both Horn and the burglars)
In broad daylight
and after multiple threats of use of force by Horn.

In fact, are you even familiar with this case? You seem to be defending Horn vigorously...have you heard the tape of his 911 call? Here is a story, from the Houston Chronicle, with the audio from the call: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/side/5306638.html.

I respect that you think people have the right to defend themselves, but that's not what Horn did. He exacted justice on his terms.

[tachyon]

9. Naw, I'll donate 'em.

:D

[jpljr77]

13. Excellent...one problem solved.

So let's get down to the nitty-gritty, eh? Let's say an 18 year-old white male gets caught breaking into a person's home. Now, he didn't mean anything by it, in fact he has a clean record. It was more of a "youthful indiscretion" type of thing.

Does he get an immediate bullet to the head, or does he get a trial? Or do we just pat him on the ass and make him promise not to do it again? (remember, he's white)

Sheesh, so much to consider here. Maybe there's a middle-ground type of punishment, but I can't think of one. I really, really wish someone had taken the time to think out a system of determining punishment for various crimes.

[tachyon]

15. If he's breaking into my home he gets the bullet.

And what the fuck does his color have to do with anything?
:eyes:

[jpljr77]

20. I don't know, what does his color have to do with it?

Did color play a role in this case?

[Mike Daniels]

30. Youthful indiscretion is getting drunk and maybe throwing a rock at a house

Illegally entering an occupied dwelling goes beyond youthful indiscretion.

While it's nice to say that homeowners should attempt to flee vs. confront an intruder that's not always an option esp. if you're dealing with a multi-person househould during a night-time break in. And if you're invading an occupied house late at night you probably don't have just basic theft in mind.

I'll be willing to state that the factors may differ on a case to case basis and night-time invasions may be a small percentage of total home invasion incidents. That said, I have absolutely no problem with a homeowner using any means necessary to protect his family when it's not possible to get everyone to vacate the property.

[jpljr77]

37. OK, I can see your points.

The facts of this case, however, are:

1. It was during the day
2. The burglars broke in specifically because they knew no one was home
3. They did not break in to Joe Horn's home, it was his neighbors' home
4. He shot them in the back, at close range, with a shotgun
5. He told the 911 dispatchers that he "couldn't let them get away with it" and that he was "going to kill them"

[Mike Daniels]

38. I agree Joe Horn was beyond the pale and I wasn't disputing those facts

I just think there are cases where a homeowner shouldn't have to worry about legal consequences regardless of how he deals with a home invader (i.e., night-time invasion)

[alarimer]

31. I really hate this stupid gun culture

I really do.

[Kali]

4. Um, we have a justice system that is supposed to make those

determinations, not individuals. I sure agree we have a right to defend our selves (and even our property - even thought that is a really unpopular stance) with whatever force is needed, but even then I believe we have to be held accountable to a thorough investigation and determination that we were correct in our judgment at the time.

Shooting two people in the back coming out of your neighbor's house doesn't pass the test for me.

[tachyon]

5. O. J. Simpson

...

[Kali]

75. wtf?

:wtf: does oj have to do with anything?

[Winterblues]

7. Right more judge, jury , & executioner rolled into one.

The American way..Who gives a shit about Law and Due Process..

[tachyon]

10. Well, the criminals don't, for starters.

...

[Winterblues]

18. And America needs to be dictated to by criminals????

I don't buy your argument nor your attitude toward life and death.

[tachyon]

42. It's quite clear the criminals have YOU intimidated to the point of forgiving

them in advance. That's fine, let them come in your house and rape your wife. If they come in MY house, they're fucking dead. It really doesn't get much more complicated than that.

[Two Americas]

28. interesting admission

Since "criminals" don't care about due process, you don't either? But you are not at all like them? It seems that for you some laws are to be respected, others not - all depending upon what you want to do - and some criminal behavior is OK and other criminal behavior is not - again, all depending upon what you want to do.

So, your respect for the law depends upon what you want,m and you have not repsect for duie process. Doesn't that make YOU - by your own definition - a criminal?

[tachyon]

50. It makes me less likely to be a victim of scumbag criminals.

That's plenty good enough for me, Scooter.

[alarimer]

29. He's a monster and you are too for supporting him.

This fucking piece of shit belongs in jail. For a very long time. Fuck him and the stupid fucking gun nuts out there. YOU ARE NOT JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER.

[tachyon]

52. Try to break into my home. I'll execute your ass right on the fucking spot.

Guaranfuckingteed.

[Richard Steele]

32. That's the saddest declaration I've heard all day.

nm

[apocalypsehow]

34. I think you're lost, like so many of DU's resident gun obsessives.

n/t.

[tkmorris]

35. He's not lost

He knows EXACTLY where he is, and what he is doing here.

[tachyon]

47. Of course that's what you think...you apologize for the criminals and hate the victims.

Fortunately for most of society you don't get to pre-pardon the fucking scumbags as you'd like to do.

[tkmorris]

60. You are completely full of crap

NO one apologized for the criminals. NO one hates the victims (Joe isn't one, btw).

Instead, we respect the law. We understand that the moment one of us does not get a fair opportunity to defend themselves in a court of law, NONE of us will have that opportunity. The simple accusation of a crime will be enough. We understand that vigilante justice is not justice at all, it is vengeance carried out by individuals or mobs without objectivity or any respect for the law. We know that as soon as justice is allowed to be enforced by civilians, the rights of the minority are lost.

You don't get to be judge and jury. Justice is supposed to be blind, not seething with red-eyed rage. There are reasons for that and it stuns me that there are still people in 21st century America who do not yet understand what they are.

[tachyon]

64. You can keep defending the assholes. I'll shoot them whenever appropriate.

...

[jpljr77]

67. OK, I see...you're just a troll.

Well, :toast: to you, because you really had me going there.

[tachyon]

68. I'm not a troll, but I admit I was curious to see how much of a rise I could get from the

most hysterical anti-gun fanatics. I probably wouldn't really have shot those guys unless they came at me or were trying to get into my house, but I sure won't shed a tear for 'em. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind their departure is anything but beneficial to society.
:toast:

[jpljr77]

69. OK, since we're keeping it real...

do you think Horn should have charges filed against him? Any charges (involuntary manslaughter, use of deadly force, 1st degree murder, etc.)?

[tachyon]

71. Not really...well, maybe disturbing the peace.

Not kidding.

[apocalypsehow]

72. And yet another one of our so-called "law abiding Democrats" is heard from...

:eyes:

You're posting on a progressive discussion board, uh....why? :shrug:

[avenger64]

54. Dittos ....

.... breaking into someone's house is, by my definition, a dangerous act - there's no telling what you've initiated. Look what happened to Sean Taylor (the Redskins player). Those dolts thought he was out of town, and broke in, then it turns out he's home and they kill him. This guy Horn may have gone a little overboard, but not enough to warrant a prosecution, in my view.

[aikoaiko]

21. After 4 months I can say that his actions and utterances place him right on the line of illegality

Its true that in Texas one can claim a shooting of a burglar of another's house was justified under certain conditions, but its really a close call as to whether all the conditions are met in Joe Horn's case.

Because of this ambiguity (i.e., reasonable doubt) I am sure he will not be convicted in a trial in Texas or even get out of Grand Jury.

eta: I think self-defense is an even more difficult case to make given what I've heard/read about the case.

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. The burglars were on Horn's property when he shot them

[aikoaiko]

25. Do you have any links to the Texas code on self-defense or stand your ground laws?

I looked quick and couldn't find any.

[Uncle Joe]

23. He should be arrested for premeditated murder,

he wasn't defending him self or his property, the 9/11 dispatcher told him repeatedly the police were on the way, but he was itching to kill somebody and couldn't resist the temptation.

[tachyon]

48. So why don't you drive your fat ass down there and do it yourself?

Texas allows for citizens' arrest.
:eyes:

[Uncle Joe]

76. Thanks for your fat ass input.

I didn't think anyone from "Rural Smack dab in the mid" would have a clue. What is mid anyway, middle of the road after you've hit by a truck?

Edit for P.S. I forgot to welcome your fat ass to D.U., hello fat ass.:hi:

[Ikonoklast]

74. Texas interpretation of its' Castle Law is very broad

If a felony is being committed, the courts have usually sided with the shooter, even if the shooters property wasn't involved.

That's Texas. Other states interpret much more narrowly.

[Uncle Joe]

77. Have they ever had a case where the 9/11 dispatcher

warned the shooter not to go out side repeatedly and the police were on the way to catch the perps? She kept saying the police are on the on way, don't go outside and confront them, the property isn't worth a human life. I could hear the blood lust in his voice, he just wanted to kill somebody and this was the perfect excuse, if it wasn't premeditated murder, I would think voluntary manslaughter would apply.

I understand Texas has a broad interpretation of Castle Law but this was so blatant and non-compulsory as to be sickening.

[Quantess]

36. That's because so many people are cheering for him.

Similar to rooting for Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies.