GM: Not Making Hybrid a 'Mistake'

[Mugu]

By ASHLEY PHILLIPS
March 20, 2008

Not making a hybrid car like the Prius was a "mistake," outspoken General Motors vice chairman Bob Lutz told a room of Chevy Volt "fan boys" at the New York Auto Show this week.

"We had the technology to come out with a hybrid at the same time as Toyota," Lutz said Tuesday. "In hindsight, it was a mistake. ... We made the mistake and we won't make it again."

"I think the whole company has learned when you step out and do bold things, you win and when you're cautious and let other people do the bold things, you lose," he continued.

Lutz was at the auto show for an unprecedented town hall type, question-and-answer session from the "Volt Nation," a group of fans of the Volt, GM's electric concept car. They have rallied around a blog created by a New York neurologist who is unaffiliated with the company.


To read complete article visit:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4485292&page=1

[Angela Shelley]

1. They have the technology? ... Where´s the car?

They have announced that they are going to lower prices for gas guzzlers ... you´d think they would eventually learn, but they haven´t yet.

[MrCoffee]

6. Who thinks American automakers will ever learn anything?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


oh, you were serious???

[Angela Shelley]

8. I was hoping ... and since there is not yet a law against hoping ...

:-)

[katty]

12. they never do

[gilpo]

14. Just as soon as they are bought out by Honda and Toyota... 2012 or so, I'd guess.

[CRF450]

23. They just produced a two mode hybrid system.

Its going into the Tahoe and Silverado's first, then they'll install it in many of their cars. I'd really like to see what the cars will get with this system, cause their was a test drive article on the Tahoe getting up to 25mpg in the city. Thats pretty damn good considering that they struggle to get anymore than 16mpg in the city. My Dakota could really use this as it also gets around 16mpg.

[sharesunited]

2. Instead they tooled up to make

more conventional SUV's and pickup trucks because that's what the "reliable" marketplace looked like to them. How do we inject "vision" into the suits?

[MrCoffee]

3. Point to one GOOD buisness decision GM's made in the last 15 years.

At least they're being honest.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HerbieHeadhunter]

4. "We made the mistake and we won't make it again."

Yes they will.

[madinmaryland]

5. Ya think, Bob!

GM, poor management for nearly 40 years.

[gilpo]

33. Doesn't GM stand for Ghastly Management?

[burythehatchet]

7. Nooooo GM... I WANT HUMMERS!! (not a sex thread)

[SidDithers]

9. Who killed the electric car?...

Oh, yeah, that's right, it was GM.

Sid

[wundermaus]

13. GM did everything it could to short circuit the development of

the electric car...

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/electric-car-timeline.html

http://www.ev1.org/

http://www.pluginamerica.org/

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/4/13/who_killed_the_electric_car_new

[Hobarticus]

19. It's not too often I'm at a loss for words...

But watching that doc sure did it for me.

[mdmc]

10. BhUMMER

:shrug:

[katty]

11. really boys?!! it took you this long to realize that?

[hatrack]

15. Thanks, Captain Obvious!

Where would Americans be without your vision and insight into the world of high-stakes manufacturing??

:puke:

[Hobarticus]

16. This is why US corporations should be outsourcing upper management

and not their rank-and-file. Unfortunately the rank-and-file will get stuck paying for this asshat's lack of vision.

[bullwinkle428]

17. Just found another doozy of quote from Lutz on the same subject!

From the Detroit Press coverage of this same event:

GM will build future versions of hybrids that are less expensive, Lutz said, "and without the premium, where today if you buy a Toyota Prius you have to live to 150 to get back the premium over a conventional car."

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080320/AUTO04/803200347/1148/rss25

STOP IT BOB...YOU'RE JUST KILLING ME!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Okay, time for some fact-checking. First of all, the Prius doesn't have a "conventional car" counterpart, so there's no basis for comparison. Let's look at a car offered in both hybrid and conventional configurations. The Honda Civic EX sedan lists for $19,510, while the Hybrid is sold for $22,600. Let's say someone plans on driving around 35,000 miles per year, and we'll use the magic number of $4/gallon for gas...we know it's already surpassed this price in some parts of the country. With a combined EPA number of 29 mpg for the EX, it gives up 13 mpg to the Hybrid (combined 42 mpg).

Honda Civic EX sedan : 1207 gallons/year ==> $4828 / year in fuel costs

Honda Civic Hybrid sedan : 833 gallons/year ==> $3333 / year in fuel costs

Total savings per year with Hybrid ==> $1495 / year

At this rate, it would take just over 2 years to make up the premium paid for the Hybrid model!!

I guess in Lutz's world, 2 years, 150 years...same thing. :eyes:

[MrCoffee]

20. Hey, don't piss all over his bombastic hyperbole!

Have you no respect at all?


:rofl:

[Johonny]

21. great comparison:)

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

29. Umm the numbers in your post are crap..

"Someone plans on driving around 35,000 miles per year"

Who the hell drives 35K miles per year, the *average* american drives 12K miles per year.. $ dollars per gallon is reasonable..

So with those numbers:

Price Difference: 3090$
Gallons of Gas: 3090/4 = 772 gallons of saved gas will even out the price

Gas per year Non Hybrid: 12000/29 = 413 Gallons
Gas per year Hybrid: 12000/42 = 285 Gallons
Difference: 413-258 = 128 Gallons
Years to break even point: 772/128 = 6

So the average American Vehicle will take 6 years for the hybrid to pay itself off (this does not take into account depreciation)

Trade in value (2004 Hybrid) - 10,400$
Trade in value (2004 Non Hybrid) - 8,950$

So the 3100$ price difference went to 1,450 on trade in after four years (no six year comparison to do) The Hybrids lose trade in value far faster than standard cars and are made of parts which are anywhere near as recyclable.

--

on edit: also, unless you buy it cash and dont finance you'll also have to account for the extra interest your paying on that 3k..

Personally I cant wait until the volt comes out, I plan on taking a lon to have a wind turbine installed at my home and to forget about gas all together..

[Johonny]

38. hmm

Comparing a 2008 Prius to 2008 Chevy Impala LA with Blue book.
I see MSRP are both ~$ 21000.

I look up the resale value on my 2002 Prius compared to 2002 Chevy Impala LA
$ 14760 compared to $ 9215.

That's a difference of $ 5500 the other way.

Hybrids simply don't lose trade in value far faster than standard cars.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

40. Hybrids from 2004 disagree

4yo hybrids have not held their value as well as their non hybrid counterparts.. What did those cars cost at the time?

[bullwinkle428]

50. WRONG!!!!!!! Here are numbers, directly from kbb.com :

Suggested retail value:

2004 Honda Civic EX 4-door sedan (50,000 miles) : $15,065

2004 Honda Civic Hybrid 4-door sedan (50,000 miles) : $16,915

Hmmmmmmmm, looks like the Hybrid brings nearly $2000 more at sale time, 4 years later!

[lectrobyte]

49. You forgot some of the maintenance savings of hybrids

The hybrid is probably never going to need a brake job. There's no serpentine belt. In fact, less moving parts in a CVT-based hybrid than the typical conventional car.

[bullwinkle428]

51. "Who the hell drives 35K miles per year?" Dude, I DRIVE 35K MILES PER YEAR!!

I have a commute of just over 50 miles each way to work. Multiply by 5 days a week, 48 weeks out of the year, along with non-work driving. I also visit some of my family living about 350 miles a few times each year, and my Mom, who lives nearly 800 miles away, at least once every year! My situation is not out of the ordinary at all - someone posted a story of a couple in California where the husband had a 220 mile round-trip commute per day, and the wife's was 160 miles!

[wtmusic]

31. He's also said they're only making them for PR reasons

their lack of commitment is showing

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. I know we already made it back

and you are not even counting the need to smog check the car... oh wait, not the Hybrid.

that is 60 year, we've had the car for four years already...

240 right there

[RedCappedBandit]

46. Great post!

Thanks for taking the time to type it out. Illuminating!

[AlGore-08.com]

18. Maybe they should have manufactured the hybrid they developed under Gore's PNGV program in 2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNGV

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Precept

[BlooInBloo]

22. They have all the chances in the world to do what is both good and good for them...

... Fuck em. Not one dime of bailout when they need one.

[spanone]

24. in 2003, i bought a hybrid because we invaded the middle east

you's think an educated person running a mega-corporation would have a shit more foresight than me.

guess not

[Jack Rabbit]

25. Foresight?

That kind of thing will get you canned from Fortune 500 corporation. Judging by the wizards running the country, foresight (and competence) is something that must be discouraged at the Harvard Business School and Yale University.

[MrCoffee]

26. Anything beyond the next quarter is verboten

[Selatius]

34. Hence the subprime mortgage failures. Giving loans to high risk people boosted short-term cash flow.

The more people signed on with a mortgage, the more monthly cash flow there would be to cover costs. Unfortunately, many of these people couldn't pay when the mortgages readjusted, and the result is what you have now with banks like Bear Stearns going under.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

27. But we've got a V-12 truck! That flys!

:woohoo:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. No offering crap colors is a mistake

Offering piss poor coverage on new cars would be a mistake

Falling behind in fuel efficiency in politically unstable time is monumentally f'ing stupid you sods..

[jtrockville]

30. LISTEN UP energy companies. Not building green power plants

is going to put you on a fast track to GM's destiny.

And no, coal isn't clean under any circumstances.

[trof]

35. History DOES repeat itself, doesn't it? The OPEC Oil Embargo.

The Big 3 (and others back then) kept building the big land yachts in the face of higher gas prices and even rationing because "That's what people want."

That gave Toyota a tiny toehold in the U.S. market for the first time with their (at the time) somewhat crappy little tin-can cars that sold cheap and got 35-40 MPG. And I bought one.
Now the Japanese (and Korean) auto makers have become the benchmarks in quality, innovation, and MPG and just cleaned our clocks.

My friend next door owns the local Chrysler dealership and he's scared shitless right now. They bought more land and built a huge new complex about 3-4 years ago. There must be at least a couple of thousand big pick ups and SUVs sitting on his lot now.

And one of my friends down the street just traded her year old Escalade on a Prius. She's got plenty of money, but when her monthly gasoline bill hit $400, well...I had to DO something."

[calimary]

36. Cute. Another short-sighted pirate who just got a bucket of icewater thrown on him

while he was taking his nap.

Nice of you to wake up, chucko.

[Javaman]

37. no, not making a hybrid was stupid. cubing and shredding the EV-1

was a calculated mistake based on greed.

These guys are turds.

[PVnRT]

41. Glad they finally figured it out

Hopefully their next press release is announcing the retooling of Hummer plants to make hybrids.

[DainBramaged]

42. Blind ignorant hate here. I just clicked off a bunch of red X's

Stupid people shouldn't breed. And when ALL of the manufacturing jobs in America go overseas, you'll wonder why your imported cars cost so fucking much, along with your gas.

Most of you probably have never owned a Domestic, or belonged to a Union, or worried about making a living when your job was outsourced. But that's part of the problem with DU. You clowns won't spend two seconds in the labor forum but you'll trash GM at the drop of a thread.

[mdmc]

43. I hear you

I support labor. I buy American. I just can't stand the whole Hummer line.

[sellitman]

44. I own two American Cars

I guess you could say I am supporting the workers here in America and the Unions behind them with my purchase?

That being said there is nothing wrong taking a company and it's executives to task for a botched job.

If the very folk you claim to support has paid attention to the needs of the people and more importantly to our dying planet then you

not be worried about your job. If GM had the foresight to make it's own "Prius" then these "stupid people" wouldn't be trashing your

employers. You are getting mad at the wrong crowd my friend.

[Harry Monroe]

45. "We Made The Mistake And Won't Make It Again"

I made the mistake of buying a GM car back in 1988. A Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais. It spent more time in the shop than on the road. In 1994, bought a Toyota Corolla, which I still own. I bought a Toyota Matrix last year. Yup, I buy reliable cars that last. Won't make the mistake of buying a GM car ever again.

[Brigid]

47. They didn't learn from their own history?

I'm old enough to remember back in the '70's when the Japanese car companies were kicking the butts of their American competitors when gas prices (sound familiar) drove American consumers to buy smaller cars that got better gas mileage. The American car companies took years to come up with decent small cars. Some would argue that they never really did succeeed. Here we go again. :eyes:

And the worst part is, it's American auto workers who are really paying a price for this mismanagement. :grr:

[supernova]

48. That would be my view also

GM never did promote economy cars as a good all-American thing to drive. When Detroit does do small cars, it comes off as "oh, here's a little something we threw together. We didn't spend much time on it, but we know you want it so here 's a bone. "

American car makers just haven't been in the business of thinking ahead, and I mean 10-20 years ahead, not just the next model year.

Also, I recently bought a used Honda because:

1) The price was right. I wanted to pay for a slightly used recent model. I paid 16K for it.

2) I know it will last with little maintenance. I expect to keep this car for about 10 years. It may be my last gasoline engine.

3) It fits me. I am a petite adult. The seat is the right size. The steering wheel is at a good arms' length for me, ditto the foot pedals. And I can place my feet squarely on the floor without feeling like I am lying down or extending my legs too far. In short, Most American built cars are not the right proportion for me. The Japanese car that I bought is.

If American auto manufacturers can get some of these principles down, I might consider buying another American car.