I get the feeling most Americans have no idea how vile and damaging slavery was

[Taverner]

With Pat Buchanans comments that blacks had it better under slavery than anywhere else, I'm starting to think some Americans can't grasp exactly how inhumane and abusive slavery was. It doesn't surprise me either, with schools teaching absolutely nothing about the typical slave's experience, and the media before civil rights painting this glorious, idyllic view of life under slavery (Gone with the Wind, Song of the South, etc) it's not hard to understand that Americans are clueless when it comes to slavery.

Americans need to be reminded that slaves were treated no better, and in many ways worse than cattle. Not only were they sold, bartered and forced to work, but when they had children they were taken from them and sold as well. Racist Pat argues that Blacks had it really good under slavery - their room and board was covered for life. But you could starve a slave and nothing would happen. If you ran short of wheat that year, you could legally go out and kill some slaves to take off the burden of the extra mouths.

Also, many slaves who were considered "bad genes" for slavery would be castrated so they wouldn't risk putting out inferior slaves.

I could go on, but I really think this is an issue that needs to be dealt with.

[CatWoman]

1. Taverner

the last time I went home (Portsmouth, Virginia), my brother drove from Texas to pick me up.

While driving through South Carolina, he commented how the most evil and brutal criminals come from that state (among blacks).

That's no surprise, as the black slaves in that state were treated the most brutally.

Violence begets violence.

[Taverner]

3. Violence begets violence

Indeed

Is it any wonder all of the Death Penalty states have the highest crime rates?

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

46. One of my favorite passages from a Martin Luther King Jr. speech

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, begetting the very thing that it seeks to destroy. Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.

Through violence you may murder the liar, but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth. Through violence you may murder the hater, but you do not murder the hate. So it goes.

Returning violence for violence multiples violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that.

Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that.

Martin Luther King

(I have this up on my DU profile)

[Breeze54]

13. WTH? Bizarre comment!!!!

Like AA don't move... ever??

As if NC was the ONLY state that treated slaves badly? :wtf:

You aren't serious, are you? I seem to remember TX dragging an

AA man to his death, not to long ago... All states treated AA slaves badly!

[selador]

16. fwiw, by this theory

in brazil, they treated slaves much worse than the US. how does that related to african americans in brazil vs. america NOW?

i would say: not much.

[CatWoman]

20. the thing about south american slaves

at least they were recognized as having a soul.

[selador]

23. didn't know that

not exactly great comfort that the person who is beating you thinks you have a soul, though

[CatWoman]

25. no, no great comfort

but I don't get it -- what do you want from me?

I'm just relating what I've learned.

btw - south carolina slaves owners operated under the attitude that slaves were to be treated brutally and worked to death. after all, they could always be replaced.

[selador]

27. don't want anything

it's an interesting factoid i did not know

just giving you props

[CatWoman]

28. I worked with a gentleman who was a history buff, especially black history

I learned a lot from him.

[CatWoman]

26. I disagree

as I stated to another poster, at least the south american slaves were viewed as having a soul.

a far cry from north american slaves.

[Breeze54]

33. Oh brother....

Who gives a rat's ass if they were thought to have a soul?

They were treated like crap by so-called Christians!

That has to have been worse!!!

[CatWoman]

36. can I ask your nationality/race?

i think the soul angle matters as, while they were enslaved, they were not looked upon as animals like their NA brethren.

[Breeze54]

40. BS! They were treated like animals across the board and my "color" shouldn't matter.

:eyes:

[CatWoman]

43. again, I disagree

and your color does matter.

As a black person, I was insulted beyond belief when a moderator on this board told me that I and other blacks should be "happy" that we were taken out of Africa. And even with that, I didn't go all psycho on her as you are with me.

Now here you are insulting me by glossing over my points in order to slug me over the head with yours.

I never said that slavery wasn't inhumane, or brutal, etc.

I was trying to expand upon my comments that slavery in SC was ESPECIALLY brutal and inhumane.

[Breeze54]

48. And I disagree... ALL slavery, in and of itself, was brutal and inhumane.

I certainly hope you reported the unnamed Mod for saying such a thing. That's not right.

No, I'm not insulting you but I am upset by your comments singling out SC. I think that's absurd.

[CatWoman]

49. I think I said that

:shrug:

ALL slavery, in and of itself, was brutal and inhumane

[PetraPooh]

60. And now so many are devout Christians, go figure?

[Breeze54]

64. No kidding....

all a bunch of hypocrites.

[Number23]

82. In What Way?

((in brazil, they treated slaves much worse than the US.)) In what way? Please give some examples. From what I've heard, Brazil may be one of the few places in the world with more racial issues than the U.S.

And I believe that the term for a Brazilian of African descent would be an Afro-Brazilian or something to that effect. Surely not an African American.

[treestar]

88. "America" is the name of two continents

North and South

[Number23]

91. So....

So then it's okay to call a Brazilian of African descent an African-American? Interesting. I've never heard a single black person from Canada refer to themselves as African American.

[CatWoman]

22. I said South Carolina, not North

home of the rice plantations. Look it up. It was a brutal existence.

Most of the extreme fugitive slave laws came out of that state.

BTW -- Texas wasn't a state then, was it?

[Breeze54]

31. What the F does it matter? SC or NC, or MS or GA or MA or CT or TX??

Slavery in Texas

Before and After Emancipation

By Jacci Howard Bear, About.com

http://austin.about.com/cs/history/a/slavery.htm

Slavery in the United States is most closely associated with the deep South but Texas was also a slave state. From the early days of colonization until after the Civil War, slavery was an integral part of the colony, the Republic, and the State of Texas. The legacy of slavery, although officially abolished in Texas in 1865, continues today.

Life of a Slave in Central Texas

Slaves played an important role in the colonization of Texas. Picking cotton was not the only job
of a slave. Not only did they tend to the crops, they had the added burden of clearing the land
and establishing new farm land and communities in an often hostile environment.

Although there were plantations in Texas, many slave owners were relatively poor and had only a few slaves which could increase the workload. In some respects, the life of a slave in the cities was somewhat better where many slaves worked as domestics rather than in the fields and had more opportunities for socialization with other slaves.

But rural or urban, it was still a life of bondage and deprivation.

• "The Negro's Place in the Texas Sun"

This article tells the story of Jack Black and his family who settled near
Austin, Texas with owner Jess Maxwell in 1852.

• The Slavery Question

Photographs, documents, and commentary on the life of slaves in Texas including
picking cotton, plantation rules, and the debate over annexation due to slavery.

• Urban Slavery
This entry from The Handbook of Texas Online looks at the difference in life in
the city for slaves and the relative "freedoms" enjoyed by city-dwelling slaves.

• Free Blacks
Their numbers were small, but from the earliest days of the territory there were free blacks
in Texas. However, their freedom came with restrictions not imposed on Anglo settlers.

Next Page > Life After Emancipation & African Americans in Central Texas Today

-----------------

Texas was no better than the rest, not by a long shot.

[CatWoman]

35. I'm not going to argue with you

it appears that you don't catch my drift.

I'm not trying to excuse Texas, or any other state.

I'm just trying to explain my attitude and comments about South Carolina. Period.

You asked me to defends my comments about SC, not Texas or some other state.

SC was a slave state from it's inception: http://www.slaveryinamerica.org/geography/slave_laws_SC.htm

It's main crop was rice, and cultivating rice is a back breaking, monumental task: http://sciway3.net/proctor/state/sc_rice.html

The most vicious, and cruel fugitive slave laws originated in SC: http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Fugitive_slave_laws

most SC slaves were imported from Barbados (from rum and sugar plantations), where the prevailing attitude was to work them until they died, then buy more.

[Breeze54]

41. You brought up TX and your brothers attitude... and you sound like you accepted it.

I think you are way off base, as is your brother. One does not justify the other.

Pointing fingers at SC doesn't absolve the other states that were complicit in atrocities.

It was ALL bad!

"But we only beat them a little bit, unlike SC, and only on Sundays!" :eyes:

[CatWoman]

45. I brought up Texas just to say that my brother drove from there

to pick me up here in Atlanta.

We were born and raised in Virginia - a stone's throw from SC.

My maternal grandfather was from SC.

Why are you so angry?

[Breeze54]

50. You mistake outrage for anger.

I think your comments are outrageous. And your brother brought TX opinions with him.

[tavalon]

66. You are right about that

and a dear friend and ex-boyfriend and I chose to never be seen with each other outside of Austin for that very reason. I wouldn't risk his life that way. Amazing and horrifying, isn't it, that in the twenty first century, a white woman and a black man have to think that way about safety in their relationship? It fucking boggles me. Our romantic relationship ended for reasons other than race, of course (and why would I even need to caveat that, again, in the twenty first century!?!) but it still galls me that we ever even had to consider such things.

[againes654]

79. Austin is not the only place in Texas

that a black man and a white woman can have a relationship. While I agree that Texas is still deeply embedded with racism, I have been married to a black man for 8 years, 4 of them in Dallas, and the other 4 in a small east Tx town. We have felt discriminated against on more than a few occasions, but we have NEVER felt for our safety! The town we live in now has an openly racist sheriff, so it is plenty racist.

[tavalon]

80. Good to know but our relationship began just a few years after the man was dragged and murdered

We didn't care to see a redo. Perhaps we were overly cautious but he's still alive and while we aren't together anymore, this world is a richer place for him being in it.

[surfermaw]

89. Stop your Bull Crap

I know all about slavery, I came from the very Virginia, Maryland and other states that fought their way through the wilderness and found land in Georgia, South Carllina and other states not one had a bed of roses, don't let Gone with the wind and the plantation shown lead you to believe that junk, I know slavery was uncalled for they were treated like animals, and no one should be a slave, but the men that went out and got land grants, and kelp the things togeather didn't have much more, I have two GGG grandmothers that died at the age of 35 in just one family I read the estate papers, they had nothing but a bunch of land and much of it worn out wassn't worth 2 cent, they went out and made a living after the Civil WAr they didn't sit on their buts and wait for someone to hand it to them, I remember the south in the 20's and30's when all they had was the red land, black and white neither had hardly enough to eat and wear, but some how the whites got off their hinnies and went to work, The only thing the south had over the blacks were the power of slavery after the slaves were set free, they had nothing but land they couldn't pay tax on... so don't cry too loudly... I have the old documents of many of the old white people, they had nothing but they did ok in the end by their own hands what happened to the black hands.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. and profitable and useful for the owner. extremely profitable.

literally catered to hand and foot. no wages to pay, no penalties if you beat the servant. and if a mistake was made from frequent use of female slaves, the resulting birth was also a slave.

my ex-wife defined the state of husbandry in similar terms.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. One further thing Americans don't understand.

Slavery was encoded into statutes, making the courts a vehicle to protect and to perpetuate this vile system upon a group of people decided to be a subclass by their captors and enslavers. Once something is law, it becomes a vital part of a culture. That's why if you even helped a slave runaway, you were subject to punishment. You were an enemy to the system for trying to subvert its purpose.

[Taverner]

15. Exactly - Huck Finn was a felon

[Hippo_Tron]

83. He was also going to hell

[panader0]

5. You are right. The people like Pat would have us think that slaves

just sang songs and danced and were well taken care of. Slavery is a stain on our history, like Nazism in Germany.

[Taverner]

7. Definitely a stain

And I'm not going to argue who had it worse, and instead vote for "both were inexcusable"

[hifalutin]

51. I agree,

it was the darkest period in American history.

[grassfed]

6. "Without Sanctuary" Film

see the movie

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org

[Faygo Kid]

8. Not just slavery. The next hundred years, too. Read "The Bloody Shirt"

A book very difficult to read, as the inhumanity to newly freed blacks in the South is almost more than one can stomach.

Highly recommended, though. Try that one, Pat, then come back and tell us how great blacks have had it in this country.

[skooooo]

9. I don't think Americans deal with the reality of TODAY very well..

...how could you expect them to delve into such an ugly past? Seriously, as a society we shield ourselves from anything that is uncomfortable, unsightly, or unfamiliar...

Not saying it's right, just thinking.

[roguevalley]

10. I do. My mother believed all her life she was on the union side in

her family. Turns out they were southerns and had a plantation in Virginia back in the Revolutionary days. We have copies of wills where they willed slaves to their children, "Hettie and all her issue (kids)".
Slavery is horrible and Pat Buchanan shames himself with his words.

My mother loathed this part of her family, even though she was never responsible. You would have loved my sweet mom. She once slapped a man's face for saying the N-word in front of her brother-in-law. (Before she learned about her family I might add.) Mama, she was my greatest hero, she and my dad.

[tavalon]

69. My grandfather learned quickly never to say that awful word around me

Even as a teenager, I was incredible strong willed and unwilling to accept such prejudice. He had once belonged to the KKK and yet, his 13 year old granddaughter put him in his place mighty damn quick on that score. I look back and am amused that I was such a spitfire. Good thing I grew out of it (Not!). One thing I'm not proud of in my teenage years is that I also brought black people home as friends but I did it to gall my grandfather. That is, in retrospect, as racist as he was. I'm glad that he was long dead and buried before I started dating my friend I referenced in another post. I knew I was dating him because I liked him, not because of the deeper pigment of his skin.

[MikeNearMcChord]

11. I would love to get people like Buchanan

have them chained and packed into those slave ships, like they did to the Africans, and sail around the world a couple of times. And then ask those who survived that ordeal has does it feel? Maybe I wouldn't have to go far, maybe one or two days in that hell might make them wake the F*** up.:mad: :mad:

[Life Long Dem]

14. And cut off a foot if he tried to escape.

[Life Long Dem]

12. Roots

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075572/

[murielm99]

17. People don't learn nearly enough about it in school.

We are teaching more during Black History Month, but the quality and depth of the lessons depend on the teacher. And why teach black history only one time during the year? The multicultural history of our country needs to be incorporated into the entire curriculum.

I like the blues. When I read Alan Lomax's "The Land Where the Blues Began," I learned a lot not just about the work hollers and the prison songs. I learned about the inhuman conditions endured by the black men and women who built the levees, and the horrific conditions of the prisons. Lomax described them as worse than concentration camps.

Another interesting experience for me was a class I took in college called "The Church and the Race Experience." If you think this was a basket weaving course, think again. I worked very hard. Since I went to school during the sixties and our teacher was a pastor who was involved in the civil rights struggle, we had many interesting speakers. I learned about black theology and politics. We were required to attend three church services in Chicago at Jesse Jackson's Operation Breadbasket, which at that time was changing over to Operation Push.

People like Buchanan and that Paul Harvey need attitude adjustments. I simply can't believe that we have backslid so much that we have public and accepted apologists for the slavery system.

[hifalutin]

53. I was going to ask....

do they teach about this in U.S. elementary schools?
Do they teach about MLK and the civil rights movement?
Do school kids get to learn the truth or a whitewashed version?

[murielm99]

78. I can only speak to what is taught in middle school.

Yes, they do learn about MLK and the civil rights movement. They learn about the underground railroad. They learn things from the black point of view, too. They learn quite a bit of black literature. There is much more sensitivity than when I was in school.

I still think it depends on the teacher and the principal. Some schools do a better job than others.

[Karenina]

18. The dominant culture

doesn't WANT to and with the structures set in place, doesn't HAVE to.

[JohnnyLib2]

19. We took grandchildren to National Underground Railroad Freedom Center.

Cincinnati. It helps bring the story to life.

http://www.freedomcenter.org/

[Faux pas]

21. Perhaps old pat should be treated like a slave for a few years

then maybe he might have a better idea of what it entailed. In addition to the genocide of the Native Americans, slavery is a reminder of man's inhumanity and nothing that 'Americans' should be proud of.

[earth mom]

24. None of those jackass talking heads speak for me.

FYI-I have NO doubt that most whites empathize and sympathize with what happened to the slaves.

I'm white, and my heart breaks for what the African slaves went through and I also cry for the Native Americans and the Iraqi's and the Jews in Germany too.

Yes, there is a disconnect with a small but vocal part of white america and I think those people are sociopaths-usually fundie rethuglicans.

That's the ONLY explanation because normal people-of ALL colors-understand and are appalled and disgusted with how ALL those people were treated!



So please think before posting OP's that basically puts every white person in with vile bastards like Buchanan, Limbaugh, O'Lielly and Faux News!

It make you look almost as bad as them.

:puke:

[Taverner]

29. "I'm white, and my heart breaks for what the African slaves went through

That's because you know what happened. You learned it somewhere, somehow.

The reason people make ignorant statements like Pat's are because they, themselves are ignorant of history. They don't know, and they don't want to know.

EDITED TO ADD: I just think everyone should know what happened. It's about as bad as it can get, ethically and morally.

[earth mom]

34. NO-people like Buchanan, O'Lielly, Limbaugh, Hagee, Robertson, are HEARTLESS.

They very well know what went on and they don't give a damn because they view it as a means to an end.

Just as sociopaths do.

That's the difference! I think anyone with any kind of empathy and sympathy would understand and care with out studying slavery in depth.

It's just a natural reaction if you are a normal, caring, compassionate human being!

It is NOT normal to NOT care about what happened to the slaves!

[Arkansas Granny]

30. I don't think that most of us can even imagine how cruel and dehumanizing

slavery was since we have never experienced anything that even comes close to that experience. When someone makes remarks such as you have related it shows a total lack of empathy or even imagination. They are highlighting their complete ignorance.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

32. Reverse the situation.

Confront the slavery at hand, here and abroad.

No matter how many cower from the "class war" situation,...that reality will bite,...even the butts of the elite BECAUSE, no matter how optimistic the bullshit on "teevee", people can't deceive their own state of being --> forever.

Is race important?

YES!

The reason is because of a common human ill: OPPRESSION.

"The race card" is oppressive hubris. "The gender card" is oppressive hubris. "The religious card" is oppressive hubris.

RACE, RELIGION, GENDER should not EVER BE TOPICS OF DISCUSSION,...

IF IF IF,...we are a democracy.

This country isn't a fucking DEMOCRACY!!!!

IT IS A DEMOGROSSCORPORAFUCKED entertainment center,...going bankrupt.

[Angry Mollusk]

37. Slavery is a crime against humanity- wherever it happens

Slavery has existed throughout human history in all cultures-
For centuries, those who were defeated in wartime were often held as slaves-This was especially true within the Roman Empire.
Slavery has existed within Europe, Africa, Asia, and in most parts of the world since we were hunting mammoths..
Slavery still exists today in the middle east and in Africa....


There is no question that Africans sold as slaves in America were treated horribly- But they were not the only group in history to be enslaved. The Spanish brought the slave trade to the new world, and took to killing the indigenous groups rather than enslave them..I find it troublesome how some people will focus on the injustice of slavery in America's past, yet show very little interest in confronting and defeating the slavery rings that still exist today, be it sex slave rings in Asia, to forced indentured servitude in Africa and the middle East.
All Americans should be taught about the slave experience- it's part of our collective history- but blaming any group living for actions of centuries past is assinine...

[LWolf]

38. How could slavery be anything BUT vile and damaging? n/t

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. Recommended reading about slave system

There's a series of mystery novels by Barbara Hambly that takes place in pre-Civil War New Orleans.

Her main character is a free, educated black man who has family ties to all levels of black society, from slaves to the wealthy.

In the afterword to one of the books, Hambly notes that while some masters were relatively lenient, most were not, and that slaves who had a harsh master couldn't do anything about it. They were stuck, always knowing that they could be tortured or killed for no reason or any reason (one early nineteenth century surgeon literally used slaves to practice his surgical techniques--before the invention of anesthesia) or have their family members sold away.

I think it was Michael Parenti who noted that white plantation owners always complained about how "lazy" their slaves were, and yet the plantation owners themselves did no work whatsoever. Furthermore, there was no reason for the slaves to work any harder than they had to, because it didn't improve their lives any.

[Lars39]

47. Morgan's Run by Colleen McCullough does a pretty good job

of the topic also, especially the slave ship conditions.

[unc70]

87. Do they discuss the thousands of black slaveowners in NO?

New Orleans had the largest number of non-white slave owners -- over 5,000. One of the more-complex societies at the time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. Yes, the main character's mother is a slave owner,

as I recall. I think she has a house servant or two.

[Brewman_Jax]

94. Cite your source

That's a very large number of non-white slaveowners relative to the total population. Sounds like an exaggeration.

[unc70]

96. Related to research by John Hope Franklin

I just gave a quick look and couldn't find the reference supporting the 5,000 number for NO. I remember it being a WUNC-TV interview either with Dr. Franklin or some of his associates, but could not quickly locate it. I remember it wrt New Orleans, but it could have been for all of Louisiana which might explain the difference with the widely reported number being over 3,000; or maybe I just got mixed up. I remember that when I first heard the larger number, I noticed that it was higher than what I had generally seen before.

Twenty-five years ago, Dr. Franklin and his associates had used the 1860 census to identify over 3,000 slave owners among 10,000 free Negroes/Coloured in New Orleans. Their ongoing research includes numerous revisions as more and more original sources/documents become available. It is possible the larger number included a larger population definition including the whole state or enlarging the group to include more Creoles.

When I get some time, I will try to resolve this discrepancy between 3,000 and 5,000 and will post back here.

Even the 3,000 number seems shockingly high at first to most people. So it is with almost everything I learn about servitude (slavery and indenture) in the Americas; I am confronted with an additional list of astounding but true "facts", undeniable bits of history completely at odds with everything I learned in school and most of what I have learned since.

Today, while trying to find this reference, I happened upon a claim that by 1864, one third of the Union Army were from Germany with many using enlistment bonuses to buy their own freedom from indentured service. While slavery had been abolished in the North, indentured service was still legal and typically extended until age 28. Something for later research.

[Brewman_Jax]

97. Very interesting

a fast look at the 1840 census shows that number to be incorrect, there were almost 7800 adult black people in eastern Louisiana. You say that almost one-third of the area black population were slaveholders? That fraction cannot possibly be accurate. But that isn't germane to the topic at hand, and you do this regularly. Why is the number of non-white slaveholders relevant? Are you implying that just because there were black slaveholders that equals some sort of equality? The exceptions are not the rule, and don't justify inequality.

[pitohui]

42. i've about decided most americans don't know their ass from their elbow

but then i just came from the thread where some fuckwit wanted to know why people didn't just walk to evacuate from hurricane katrina, a storm the size of the entire gulf of mexico

i suppose people of every race and nationality are a bunch of fuckwits but it's particularly infuriating when your own nation appears to be a bunch of fuckwits

as for pat buchanan, he still alive? maybe the racist old fart has alzheimer's by this time of century, i wouldn't pay any attention to his crap

[Canuckistanian]

44. The Tuskegee Experiment

Also known as the 'Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male'

A singularly cruel and sad chapter in medical history.

Apparently, blacks were considered similar enough anatomically and physiologially to whites, but NOT equal to whites in ethical consideration of their deaths, disfigurement and pain.

Moreover, these uninformed medical subjects were forbidden to seek more promising treatments, long after there was any rationale to deny them proper treatment.

As shameful a history of medical malice as Josef Mengele's experiments on the Death Camp inmates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

52. Question: were criminal charges ever brought for those blatant crimes against humanity?

:shrug:

[XemaSab]

54. I think one of the things we just can't wrap our heads around

is that not only was there EXTREME physical cruelty, but the state of being OWNED...

You're born, pushed out into the fields doing hard labor in the hot sun basically as soon as you can walk, and that's your whole existence. FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. You're picking cotton at age 10? Guess what you're going to be doing this time of year 40 years from now? That's right, picking cotton.

You can be seperated from your parents, brothers, sisters, spouses, friends, children... at a moment's notice... and there's nothing you can do about it.

If you're a woman you can be raped with total impugnity. The master has the RIGHT to rape you any time because you BELONG to him. No control over how many kids you have, or pretty much who their dad is.

If you're a man, the master can rape your wife, your mother, your daughter. If you say anything about it you can be whipped or sold.

You can basically be whipped or sold for any infraction.

You're not going to get an education or go to school. Your future is totally up to the whim of some white person who treats you like an animal.

It's really incomprehensible. :(

[UTUSN]

55. K&R #4 for I think everybody does

I still remember a poem by James DICKEY that said something like, what was it like (talking about a slave owner having owned a woman he screwed, then contemplating his child), ---------


What is it like NOT to "acknowledge" BUT TO OWN?????????


I don't got the quote correct.

[malaise]

56. There's a great book on slavery in Jamaica

Thomas Thistlewood's Diary edited by Douglas Hall, a great historian. If that book doesn't sicken your stomach, you're not human.

Slavery was beyond evil in this hemisphere.

[avenger64]

57. I grasp how vile and damaging it was, but...

... I'm against making it an excuse for dysfunctional behavior 140 years later.

[Luminous Animal]

58. And the bigot strolls in... (n/t)

[avenger64]

67. well, that's the easy way out, now, isn't it?

Sorry I wouldn't play along, but sometimes you get what you give. 140 years is a long time.

[Luminous Animal]

70. Only because you took the easy way in

by making a vague accusation about somebody somewhere did something.

[PetraPooh]

61. I agree, when white children are treated as badly by parents as slaves were;

we don't get a pass. I know there is a difference in some people's minds, but I don't see it.

[tavalon]

75. Dysfunctional behavior?

Oh, you mean the way their culture, their family ties, their whole existence as a community was systematically shattered before, during and after slavery? Is that what you might be talking about? Or something else.

[kevinbgoode]

59. Well, perhaps if we'd pass a law making white male wingnuts

slaves for the next 100 years, they might get a clue. Of course, they'd be lazy as hell, but they do appear to be incapable of learning anything any other way.

[Thothmes]

93. You will have to amend the Constitution first to delete

the XIII Amendment.

[tavalon]

62. Um, I'm thinking that Pat Buchanan has no idea how vile and damaging slavery was

Many of the rest of us do and for some of us who grew up in the South, especially when their grandfather had once been in the KKK, there is a great deal of personal shame around that evil time of our history.

[Breeze54]

65. But you weren't involved, he was, as you say.

You had no hand in slavery or the KKK, so why are you ashamed?

I'm sure you do everything you can today, to make that right.

[tavalon]

74. It's a racial shame, I guess or familial, I'm not sure

I sure don't wear it as a badge of honor. As a matter of fact, I haven't brought it up in a decade or two and probably wouldn't have if not for a major politician bringing up the discussion of race and treating us like we are all adults (to paraphrase Jon Stewart). In the wake of that speech, it became necessary for me to examine all of that old shit but I looked at that in so long, it turns out there is still some pus that must be leeched out of the wound. I didn't realize that until I began looking at it again.

My grandfather was a stubborn, ornery old cuss. I carry his DNA, so I guess I feel I owe a little more since he took more than his fair share in being such a bigot. I don't know fully, it's pretty fresh, as I said.

I do know that as of March 18th, I'm fully supporting Obama, but it isn't because of his race but because of his discussion of race (not, the only reason. I was already leaning heavily his direction).

[Breeze54]

76. But tavalon, my grandfather was a stubborn, ornery old cuss too!

:P

He was 6' 5" of tough, stubborn and ornery! He was a Boston Cop back in the day when they beat
the crap out of everyone that didn't go along with the program, including my father but my father
was not like that. Sure, he was also gruff but he was kind to everyone and he was brought up to
not trust AA's or anyone else that wasn't like him but he didn't follow his father's path. He changed
that and taught his kids to be open minded or at least tried to do that. He wasn't perfect at all and
was the product of those times (born in 1910) but he did make an effort and got better over the years.
You don't have to carry that guilt or that burden. You didn't do it and you are making changes today
and today is what counts!! Acknowledge it but then move on to making better days. That's the path to change.

[tavalon]

77. Good points all

I will muse upon that along with the rest of it all.

Thank you.

[struggle4progress]

63. HARPER'S WEEKLY (JULY 4, 1863)

WE publish herewith three portraits, from photographs by McPherson and Oliver, of the negro GORDON, who escaped from his master in Mississippi, and came into our lines at Baton Rouge in March last. One of these portraits represents the man as he entered our lines, with clothes torn and covered with mud and dirt from his long race through the swamps and bayous, chased as he had been for days and nights by his master with several neighbors and a pack of blood-hounds; another shows him as he underwent the surgical examination previous to being mustered into the service — his back furrowed and scarred with the traces of a whipping administered on Christmas-day last; and the third represents him in United States uniform, bearing the musket and prepared for duty.

http://www.sonofthesouth.net.nyud.net:8090/leefoundation/civil-war/1863/july/whipped-slave.jpg

http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1863/july/whipped-slave.htm

http://bp3.blogger.com.nyud.net:8090/_473nrD5vEv8/R3UNjYgvWnI/AAAAAAAAANU/XehIKcSWp9M/s400/whipped-slave.jpg

[struggle4progress]

68. 2,300 narratives at the Library of Congress collected by Roosevelt's WPA

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/snhome.html

[Skittles]

71. Pat Buchanan and "his kind" are racist pieces of SHIT

they have no empathy, no compassion that does not fit into their narrow, sanctimonious black and white world

[walldude]

72. Hell, most people don't even know they're racist..

A Molly Ivins story comes to mind.(excuse the use of the "n" word, but it makes my point) She wrote about the first black college football player in Texas, I believe it was in 1972. Texans were very proud of him. In his first game he gets the ball and runs 40 yards. In a moment of irony he is tackled by the first black player on the opposing team. After the tackle one of the Texas alumni gets out of his seat and yells "Hey Ref, get that nigger off of our colored boy!".

Yes it's funny but a bit of truth appears, people don't want to believe they are racist, and they do their best, but it's been ingrained in our subconscious for years. Thankfully things are picking up pace, kids are infinitely more tolerant than the previous generations. I think one more generation, maybe two and we can rid ourselves of this plague of racism forever... Problem is one or two generations is a long time for the people on the receiving end.

[readmoreoften]

73. I have a feeling many Americans can't find their home state on a map.

Not only is slavery minimized, but the whole of history is minimized. I'm certain all too many young people think that slavery was abolished in the United States "hundreds of years ago" and that it was something like a really, really, really bad job.

[JCMach1]

81. You are pretending slavery is no longer with us...

It's just morphed and the new master is the corporation and the overseers run the the sweatshops in the 3rd world.

[Hannah Bell]

84. I get the feeling most americans know slavery was damaging...

what they know even less about is the degree to which it was the engine of capital formation in the US.

Slavery, drugs & crime; foundations of our great fortunes & our best families.

[Freedom Train]

85. When did Buchanan say this? Just recently?

Has he gotten his ass handed to him yet?

[Justice]

86. Two Points - Is there a link to Pat's comments? Second,

check out the story of the revolt that occurred on the ship Amistad

http://amistad.mysticseaport.org/main/welcome.html - replica of Amistad at the Mystic Seaport in Connecticut.

movie made in 1997 about the revolt http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118607/.

The replica travels around the world telling the story of the revolt and the legal representation that then former president John Adams did before the Supreme Court for the to-be slaves who revolted (kidnapped from their Sierra Leone home).

http://www.amistadamerica.org/index.php?Itemid=119&id=784&option=com_content&task=view - replica traveled to Sierra Leone.

Lots of work being done to educate younger people about what happened. A small piece of the overall story of slavery.

[cynatnite]

92. I don't think you or anyone else here in the US has a clue...

unless they were alive at the time. All the reading in the world will not help anyone understand it in the way you expect unless they were actually there. We can read about it and know what happened, but that doesn't enable our comprehension of the barbarism that was so rampant.

I for one don't think most American's are so idiotic as to look at slavery as a version of Gone With The Wind or Song of the South. I guess I don't believe most people are that stupid...Hannity, Buchanan or O'Lielly...oh, yeah, they are as stupid as rocks.

Now, I will say this. American's are not properly educated as to how slavery continues to damage our country to this day. I had a great History prof. who gave an indepth lecture on this subject. It was sobering. I wish I still had those notes.

[L. Coyote]

95. (1542) Brief Account of the Devastation of the Indies by Bartolomé de Las Casas

Sixty million died in the Americas!

====================
FROM: The Cannibalism Paradigm: Assessing Contact Period Ethnohistorical Discourse.
2004 - http://www.jqjacobs.net/anthro/cannibalism.html

The atrocities of Spanish activities in the conquest of the Indies came to be debated in Spain, together with issues of rights of the inhabitants. An opponent to slavery, Fray Bartolomé de Las Casas wrote ....(1542) Brief Account of the Devastation of the Indies presents the views of a conqueror turned protector of the indigenous population. .....

Las Casas' writing provides a perspective on the activities and mind-set of the conquerors not typically found in ethnohistorical materials, a reminder that diverse perspectives on the conquest prevailed. Las Casas writes:

"…forty-nine years have passed since the first settlers penetrated the land, the first so claimed being the large and most happy isle called Hispaniola, … This large island was perhaps the most densely populated place in the world … all the land so far discovered is a beehive of people; it is as though God had crowded into these lands the great majority of mankind."

"And of all the infinite universe of humanity, these people are the most guileless, the most devoid of wickedness and duplicity, the most obedient and faithful to their native masters and to the Spanish Christians whom they serve. They are by nature the most humble, patient, and peaceable, holding no grudges, free from embroilments, neither excitable nor quarrelsome. These people are the most devoid of rancors, hatreds, or desire for vengeance of any people in the world … they not only possess little but have no desire to possess worldly goods. For this reason they are not arrogant, embittered, or greedy.… They are very clean in their persons, with alert, intelligent minds, docile and open to doctrine, very apt to receive our holy Catholic faith, to be endowed with virtuous customs, and to behave in a godly fashion."

While lobbying for the indigenous population, Las Casas nonetheless reveals the Otherness concept, when stating that the non-Christian natives serve the Spanish Christians. He also portrays them in relation to their receptivity to religious indoctrination. His guileless, peaceable people are not recognizable as the cannibals depicted by other authors. Las Casas continues:

"…into this land of meek outcasts there came some Spaniards who immediately behaved like ravening wild beasts, wolves, tigers, or lions that had been starved for many days. And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during the past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this Island of Hispaniola once so populous (having a population that I estimated to be more than three million), has now a population of barely two hundred persons."

"The island of Cuba is… now almost completely depopulated. San Juan and Jamaica are two of the largest, most productive and attractive islands; both are now deserted and devastated. On the northern side of Cuba and Hispaniola the neighboring Lucayos comprising more than sixty islands … have the healthiest lands in the world, where lived more than five hundred thousand souls; they are now deserted, inhabited by not a single living creature. All the people were slain or died after being taken into captivity and brought to the Island of Hispaniola to be sold as slaves. When the Spaniards saw that some of these had escaped, they sent a ship to find them, and it voyaged for three years among the islands searching for those who had escaped being slaughtered…"

"More than thirty other islands in the vicinity of San Juan are for the most part and for the same reason depopulated…"

"As for the vast mainland, which is ten times larger than all Spain, … we are sure that our Spaniards, with their cruel and abominable acts, have devastated the land and exterminated the rational people who fully inhabited it. We can estimate very surely and truthfully that in the forty years that have passed, with the infernal actions of the Christians, there have been unjustly slain more than twelve million men, women, and children. In truth, I believe without trying to deceive myself that the number of the slain is more like fifteen million."

"Their reason for killing and destroying such an infinite number of souls is that the Christians have an ultimate aim, which is to acquire gold, and to swell themselves with riches in a very brief time…"

"… the Indians began to seek ways to throw the Christians out of their lands.… And the Christians, with their horses and swords and pikes began to carry out massacres and strange cruelties against them. They attacked the towns and spared neither the children nor the aged nor pregnant women nor women in childbed, not only stabbing them and dismembering them but cutting them to pieces as if dealing with sheep in the slaughter house. They laid bets as to who, with one stroke of the sword, could split a man in two or could cut off his head or spill out his entrails with a single stroke of the pike. They took infants from their mothers' breasts, snatching them by the legs and pitching them headfirst against the crags or snatched them by the arms and threw them into the rivers, roaring with laughter and saying as the babies fell into the water, 'Boil there, you offspring of the devil!' Other infants they put to the sword along with their mothers and anyone else who happened to be nearby. They made some low wide gallows on which they hanged victim's feet almost touched the ground, stringing up their victims in lots of thirteen, in memory of Our Redeemer and His twelve Apostles, then set burning wood at their feet and thus burned them alive. To others they attached straw or wrapped their whole bodies in straw and set them afire. With still others, all those they wanted to capture alive, they cut off their hands and hung them round the victim's neck, saying, 'Go now, carry the message,' meaning, Take the news to the Indians who have fled to the mountains. … survivors were distributed among the Christians to be slaves."