Mike Gravel is wrong. Libertarians are NOT progressives.

[pnwmom]

Like the Democrats, the Libertarians are pro-civil liberties. They are unique in favoring an end to ALL drug laws.

Why are the Libertarians far more like the most right wing Republicans than the Democrats?

They are FOR unlimited free trade.
FOR freedom in the use of private property
FOR business de-regulation and the end of "corporate handouts"
FOR sharply reduced taxes
FOR privatization of all government services except the military


They are AGAINST the social "safety net"
AGAINST all gun laws
AGAINST taxpayer funded social security
AGAINST taxpayer funded health care
AGAINST taxpayer funded schools
AGAINST taxpayer funded emergency services
AGAINST taxpayer funded poverty programs
AGAINST environmental regulations that infringe on the use of private property


http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/lib-whatlib-define.html

[zanne]

1. It's the "Me First" Party. nt

[Teaser]

2. Mike Gravel is never wrong

It is not within the bounds of his programming.

[InsultComicDog]

34. Get ready for the Gravelanche!

:rofl:

[Peanut Butter]

3. Libertarians=Republicans who Smoke Weed

Other than that yea, Its the ME Party

[Richard Steele]

5. Hi, Peanut Butter. Welcome to DU!

[Peanut Butter]

9. Thanks for the Howdy Doo Fellas :)

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. That sums it up nicely

And welcome to DU. :hi:

[dysfunctional press]

bingo.

nt

[Kolesar]

4. I hope that the media does not give Gravel air time for his candidacy

We have more important things to hear about like climate protection or the war

[mdmc]

59. me too!

[HughBeaumont]

7. The positions on unlimited free trade and outsourcing really frost my ass.

I think it's probably more fashionable for Repukes to identify themselves as "libertarians" than the sullied and soiled "Republican" moniker. But does it matter? The fact that they're so like Grover Norquist in small government (you know . . . except for stuff THEY support. Like, for instance, giant military budgets so the US can blast foreign peoples to the stone age. That's PERFECTLY OK.) and pro-corporate/anti-worker like Elaine Chao is reason enough not to take them seriously.

[Ordr]

8. There is far more grey-area than your post would indicate.

Not all Libertarians are strict Objectivists.

[pnwmom]

12. These are the goals of the Libertarian Party.

Individual people may join the party, only weakly supporting its principles. But the party's goals are quite clear.

[Ordr]

15. Where does one draw the line

when it comes to your government telling you what you are and are not allowed to do in your own life and to your own body?

[pnwmom]

17. The Democratic party is pro-choice.

But unlike the Libertarians, they believe that people have a responsibility to each other, including the weakest among us -- they believe in a social "safety net."

[Ordr]

19. Libertarians, generally, are pro-choice as well.

Do you believe that it should be mandatory for citizens to pay into that social "safety net" even if they choose to be charitable in their own ways?

[pnwmom]

24. We already have a system that allows people to take deductions from

taxes for payments to charity.

And yes, I do believe that it should be mandatory for citizens to pay taxes, on a progressive basis, to support the social safety net.

People choosing to be charitable in their "own ways" isn't sufficient to get the job done.

[Ordr]

26. Perhaps.

But to each his/her own.

[Zywiec]

27. Are you for legalizing prostitution?

Our do you agree the government has a right to say what a woman can do with her body in some circumstances?

[pnwmom]

31. That's not a subject I've thought a lot about. I honestly don't know.

But I do know I'm not a Libertarian, and that Libertarians reject many of the core beliefs of Progressives.

[Johonny]

10. their for

a government that wouldn't function.

[pnwmom]

13. They're for a hodge-podge of private services, rather than for

governmental services at all, other than the military.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

23. Actually, it's more that they're for a government that doesn't exist.

The only role of the government to them is to deal with criminals and invasion of the country. Pretty much everything else is up to you.

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. They are not going to nominate a candidate who disagrees with them on so many issues

This is just another sign that Gravel is a crazy old man.

[bryant69]

14. I'm in favor of freedom in the use of private property.

I mean shouldn't you largely be allowed to do what you want with what's yours? Provided you aren't infringing in other peoples rights, of course.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[pnwmom]

16. Democrats believe in private property. But Libertarians take this

to an extreme, since they oppose zoning and environmental regulations.

[Ordr]

29. With regards to environmental regulations,

Libertarians support the right to sue an environmentally-damaging company out of existence if it is proven in court that the pollution infringes upon the rights of people to live unaffected by the actions of their neighbors.

[RedCappedBandit]

20. Yes.

[LWolf]

18. What's your point?

That you don't like the libertarian party, that you think Gravel should stay a democrat, or?

I don't blame anyone for leaving the party when they party doesn't treat him or her with respect. I wish him well.

Is it only the republicans we're all supposed to be hugging and singing "kumbaya" with this year, or do we reach out to all non-democrats to build those bridges?

[pnwmom]

28. My point is that people shouldn't be misled about the goals of the

Libertarian party by Mike Gravel's decision. His views -- at least many of those he stated in his run for President -- are not in line with the Libertarians.

Other than their positions on civil liberties, the Libertarians have few ideas in common with progressives.

[LWolf]

32. I'm a leftist libertarian,

much like Gravel. My ideas, outside of civil liberties, also have little in common with the libertarian party. The libertarian party is right-wing.

Of course, the republican party, and, increasingly, the democratic party, also have some big contrasts with progressive ideas and ideals.

[pnwmom]

33. I agree the party is right-wing. So how can you be a "leftist libertarian"?

That expression would have Ayn Rand rolling over in her grave.

[LWolf]

53. Like this:

When I take the test, I tend to score consistently about as far south as the Dalai Lama, and about as far "left" as Nelson Mandela; sometimes further.

For reference:



For an explanation:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2

With a mention of Ayn Rand thrown in:

<snip>

The usual understanding of anarchism as a left wing ideology does not take into account the neo-liberal "anarchism" championed by the likes of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and America's Libertarian Party, which couples social Darwinian right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues. Often their libertarian impulses stop short of opposition to strong law and order positions, and are more economic in substance (ie no taxes) so they are not as extremely libertarian as they are extremely right wing. On the other hand, the classical libertarian collectivism of anarcho-syndicalism ( libertarian socialism) belongs in the bottom left hand corner.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

21. They're better than Republicans.

They just want to ignore everyone but themselves, while Republicans want to control everyone.

[Ordr]

22. "They just want to ignore everyone but themselves"

They want the right to ignore everyone but themselves. Big difference. They can be (and many are) just as charitable as the most progressive democrat.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

25. You're correct. n/t

:hi:

[Mountainman]

30. I see libertarians pretty much as I see conservative ideologues.

They have an ideology that sounds good but put it in practice and the country gets screwed up. We are in a mess today because of conservative ideology in practice.

Both Conservatism and Libertarianism are about doing what's good for for the individual and to hell with society.

I believe in what is serves the common good not the individual.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

35. If you ever did that political compass test, there are right and left wing Libertarians.

I scored in good company with Ghandi as a left leaning Libertarian.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

[mondo joe]

36. Are you referring only to the capital L Libertarian patry? I hope so -

because I don't think your description captures small l people with libertarian inclinations.

[pnwmom]

38. Yes I am, because that is the Party that Gravel wants to join.

I think that many people with "libertarian inclinations" would not agree with the party's stated goals.

[mondo joe]

40. Okay - just clarifying. Thanks. :- )

[Taverner]

37. There is a difference between Libertarianism and the Libertarian Party

Libertarianism is like Socialism, Capitalism, Distributism - it's kind of Anarchy-lite, with varying degrees with some like Bill Maher who believe the government should just do things the private sector can't (Fight WWII, go to the moon, end global warming) to those like Ron Paul who want to dismantle the Federal Reserve Bank.

I am a Libertarian Democrat. I like the social safety net, and think it should be expanded. The fact that it would cost a pittance should convince other Libertarian Democrats that it needs to be done. That means Universal, Single Payer Health Care.

[pnwmom]

39. Neither Libertarianism nor the Libertarian Party

are in accord with a belief in the social safety net.

[Ordr]

41. With all due respect

because this isn't meant as a pejorative, the safety-net that you are describing sounds distinctly socialist. Is that what Progressivism is?

[pnwmom]

43. Progressives believe in a social safety net that many Rethugs

think is socialist. So, from a Rethug perspective, I guess it is.

From a progressive point of view, it is part of the social contract.

[Ordr]

46. I wasn't knocking either school of thought.

I'm pretty new to what the Progressive movement has brought to the Democratic Party so I wanted to see if socialist theory was a part of it.

[Taverner]

48. The Democratic Party is a big tent party, so marketplace of ideas

Thinkers from Ayn Rand to Karl Marx...G.K. Chesterton to Gore Vidal...

[Zywiec]

50. Karl Marx is a Democratic?

I thought he was a Communist.

After all, didn't he write the Communist Manifesto?

I learn something new here everyday...

[Taverner]

52. No no no, I'm just saying ideas have come from all of those folks

Like I said, big tent

[Dutch]

56. Describing favouring a social safety-net as 'distinctly socialist' sounds distinctly freeperish.

[Ordr]

69. Will someone please tell me what "freeper" means?

I see it all over the place.

[Taverner]

42. Check out the Minarchist school of Libertarianism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchist

The idea is that the government should only do what the private sector cannot do.

Universal Health Care, Social Safety Net, Social Security, Fire, Police and Education, Fighting the Nazis, Going to the Moon, etc...all of these are things the private sector cannot do.

You should read up on Libertarian Philosophy. The Libertarian Party is only one strain.

Also check out Libertarian Democrats and Libertarian Socialists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Democrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

[pnwmom]

44. Ayn Rand would be rolling over in her grave . . .

to hear a Libertarian imply that the private sector couldn't handle education, health care, social security, etc.

[Ordr]

47. Not all libertarians are strict Objectivists.

Rand isn't the be-all and end-all of libertarian ideology.

[pnwmom]

54. True. But isn't the Libertarian party closely aligned with her views?

When I read the information at the website, it sounded like her to me.

[Iris]

45. well, yeah. Anyone who screams "Survival of the fittest" as the answer to social problems can't be

all that progressive.

[Romulox]

49. There are left-libertarians, and authoritarian "progressives", so these labels become meaningless...

[Xithras]

51. Libertarians today are what Republicans were 100 years ago. Left or Right doesn't apply.

They are pro-civil rights, pro-freedom, and oppose government handouts or support of corporations. They take no moral position on any subject (Libertarians are, for instance, strong supporters of a wall between religion and government, and support both gay rights and abortion rights). The flipside to their position is that it also argues against taxation for all social programs at the federal level, and a minority support removing taxation for even local programs (though the Libertarian philosophy theoretically includes privatizing the roads and schools, very few Libertarians actually go quite that far). Their platform can be summed up as "get the government out of my life".

They don't really fit the Left or Right label because those labels are designed for our modern political landscape, which they really don't fit into. Gay rights, for example, can easily be argued to be a CONSERVATIVE position, because a strict constitutionalist perspective already gurantees equal rights for all. Most of us consider that a left wing position, but traditionally it's actually been on the right. So where does that put the Libertarians?

The Republicans supported the same positions right up until the 1960's (which is why they took the lead in desegregation) when the corporatists finally gained control over the party. The Moral Majority and Reagan's Christian America put the final nail in their coffin. The Libertarian Party today was mostly established by the old school Republicans who fled that party as it lurched into conservative hell and abandoned the constitutionalist ideals it supposedly supported.

I don't agree with Libertarians across the board, but I get where they're coming from, and I have a hell of a lot more respect for them than I do for modern Republicans.

On edit: There's a simpler way to sum this up. A Libertarian is basically a Democrat who doesn't believe in social programs. At the same time, a Libertarian is basically a Republican who doesn't believe in the rights or personhood of corporations, and who believes that religion and government should be kept at arms length. When you look at them through that lens, does it place them on the right or on the left?

By the way, if you go to Freeperland and look up some threads on Libertarians, you'll notice that the freepers attack them as liberal "lefties". You call them conservative, they call them liberal. Go figure.

[Uncle Joe]

63. I agree with your take on it, I'm sort of a hybrid or mutt myself, believing they're on

the right side of some issues but not others.

I don't believe in bailing out corporations but I do believe in a social safety net for the people. I believe the "war against drugs" is in fact a surreptitious corporate sponsored war against the American People's privacy and freedom with the ultimate goal of, if not rein-slaving them to at the very least disenfranchise them from power. I believe non-violent drug addiction should be treated as a medical and educational issue, not a criminal one.

I believe the same holds true for the so called left-right or liberal-conservative box promoted by the corporate media as the ultimate definition of who the American People are.

I also believe the environment is a national security issue, indeed a global one.

[JerseygirlCT]

55. Yes. Not to be trusted or adored...

I dislike this political notion more and more as time goes on.

[Dutch]

57. The "Libertarian" Party shouldn't even be referred to as that. They're Propertarians.

And they've co-opted a once-honourable term from the anarchist movement.

But yeah, anyone who truly subscribes to the agenda of the "Libertarian" Party is nothing more than a selfish, regressive, anti-poor/anti-worker, extreme right-winger, I'm afraid.

[mdmc]

58. they may not be LIBERALS, but they sure can be progressives

[Ratty]

60. Worse than conservatives

I have far more respect for true conservatives than I do for libertarians. Libertarians have this simple fairy tale philosophy which they cling to, certain it's a cure for all society's problems. They believe anything can be plugged into their formula and be solved. I have never seen a group of people who see the world in such rigid black and white colors. There are no gray areas to them. They hate the idea of complex solutions to complex problems. They are stupid. They use a philosophy to justify their own selfishness. I'll have a conversation with a reasonable conservative. There's no such thing as a reasonable libertarian.

The weak minded see one half of the libertarian philosophy and are suckered into the whole scam. Pro-choice, no drug laws, gay rights, no bailouts to big corporations?? You bet, count me in! Morons.

I hate them. I hate their smug self-assured attitudes. The slight half smirk you see most often on those involved in a religious cult. And like a cult you can never ever prove them wrong. No amount of evidence will deter them.

[Ordr]

61. Your overreaching excoriation of an entire ideology seems far more black and white

than the ideology itself.

[totodeinhere]

62. I liked Mike and I am very saddened to see him do this.

[texshelters]

64. No such thing as

"collective good" in the Libertarian view of the world.

We know how that worked in the 1890s, right? Child labor, squaler in the streets, no food inspections, unclean water to drink, rats in the tenements, robber barons, subsistance wages, rat shit in our cereal, lead in our paint, DDT...

Yea, things are better when business isn't regulated at all.

Tex Shelters

[Ratty]

65. But texshelters! The market will correct itself. Don't worry be happy

Rats in the tenements: Why, people will simply stop renting there and put the landlord out of business
Rat shit in our cereal: When it's discovered people will stop buying it and put the maker out of business.
Child labor: If enough people abhor the practice then we'll put them out of business too.

See, market forces are the Magic that make libertarianism work. All hail the mighty market, our Savior! :sarcasm:

[Laelth]

66. Just an observation ...

... but I have never met a female libertarian. There must be a few out there, but I have never met one.

My experience has been this. Libertarians are men who are smart enough to see that the Republican Party is vile and evil, but they also feel oppressed, attacked, and marginalized by the loss of power of the male gender over the last hundred years. Women frighten them, and they associate the Democratic Party, the "safety net," and all things that lead to a safe, sane, and humane society with Women. Thus, they can't bring themselves to an association or an identification with the Democratic Party, and when push comes to shove, they vote for Republicans because they fear women more than anything else in the world. Libertarianism, imho, is a nearly-foolproof indicator of a terrified and sexually-insecure man.

;) Flame away.

-Laelth

[liberal4truth]

68. That probably explains their fascination with firearms and their anti gun-control stance...

they have to make up for their small statures as well as thier failures and fears of women,
with a "metal penis" ;-)

[Uncle Joe]

70. I don't believe it's women they fear so much as oppressive government, throughout history

when revolution had to be undertaken to overthrow autocratic or abusive regimes, certainly not all but the vast of majority of those doing the fighting and dying were men.

I believe Libertarians go too far regarding their fear of "Big Brother" but I certainly understand it and I don't believe their concern goes without merit. I believe Orwell hit the nail on the head regarding this issue, I used to think he only got the year wrong regarding 1984, but the more I think about it, the "War on Drugs" started in the early eighties and if there was ever an Orwellian term, that would be the ludicrous notion that one could wage war against an inanimate object. I can hear the battle cry now, we've got Marijuana on the run!

[liberal4truth]

67. Guns: The Libertarians want to buy any gun, including machine-guns, any time they want with no....

gun control laws at all.

Just say: "NO" to libertarianism!!