What is wrong with the country... I think I've gotten the answer

[nadinbrzezinski]

after going to GD-P

It is perfectly alright to lie, as long as you are not caught

The ends justify the means

It does not matter whether it is an obvious lie... President Bush landed his plane on the carrier when he came in for the Mission Accomplished speech... yes anybody who is a vet of the navy knew just how full of it this was.

Hillary clinton I came under fire at Bosnia... never mind there is plenty of documentary evidence she wasn't

Or Ken Lay and Enron.

Lying and the end justify the means have become a national sport.

Until this changes, continue to expect national candidates to lie to you, in a bold face manner

Heads of industry to lie to you.

And the rest of it

We have an ethics problem folks...

And we have to start by NOT tolerating this shit regardless who does it.

[leftofthedial]

1. one of the three legs on the raygunism stool

1. greed is good.
2. might makes right.
3. the ends justify the means.

[Fireweed247]

2. IT is worse than that

Bush taught US you CAN be caught in a lie, be responsible for killing millions of innocent people and keep on lying to everyone's faces daily. You can even threaten more killing in the name of peace, ruin the economy and tell us it's 'robust'.

We are truly dumbed down and screwed with what they are teaching to the children these days.

[Breeze54]

3. He didn't teach me or mine that.

Any responsible (Democratic) parent would straighten that shit out right quick.

[Fireweed247]

16. Any responsible parent?

I know what you are saying, but when the government schools have your kids for most hours of the day, force hours of mindless busywork after school, TV reinforces these ideas at night... the more this shit goes on the more it will be the norm. Many responsible parents don't have the time or energy to fight the brainwashing.

[Breeze54]

21. I think parents do have the time and I doubt kids are watching the news anyway,

or watching political talk shows.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. and we tolerate it right? I mean beyond a few screaming matches

here and there, we SEEM to tolerate it

We need to start calling this shit out REGARDLESS of who pulls it

[marions ghost]

14. I don't know if we all tolerate it really...

I think the corruption and lying and cheating and stealing eventually does take a toll, either directly or indirectly. Some of us do see it and know where it leads. (Straight to whatever your version of hell on earth is). But the problems seem overwhelming and it takes a lot of concerted effort to fight them. You can try to live your own life right but then you get sucked under for being naive about how this society works. Sleeze touches everybody.

All you have to do is look at local politics and business to understand that anything --ANYTHING--is justified as long as it benefits MOI. We are living with an epidemic of narcissism, which is where people go when they live in fear of scarcity and getting what's owed to them. We are sinking in moral quicksand so rapidly and so widely that I'm not sure of our ability to get out of it. I agree that it is the number #1 all-encompassing issue in the US today. And look at all the churchgoers who piously piddle in church while they're out there sharking everybody they can flim-flam in so many arenas on a daily basis (including emotional abuse and blackmail).

There is no will to change things when everybody is angling to work it for their own benefit.

Sleeze is our ultimate undoing, undermining every aspect of government and business in the US today. I challenge any young starry-eyed MBA or lawyer or government employee to come here and say this isn't the ugly truth.

[LWolf]

18. Who the FUCK is "they?" n/t

[Taverner]

4. Machiavelli's "The Prince"

A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise.
Niccolo Machiavelli

A return to first principles in a republic is sometimes caused by the simple virtues of one man. His good example has such an influence that the good men strive to imitate him, and the wicked are ashamed to lead a life so contrary to his example.
Niccolo Machiavelli

A son can bear with equanimity the loss of his father, but the loss of his inheritance may drive him to despair.
Niccolo Machiavelli

A wise ruler ought never to keep faith when by doing so it would be against his interests.


Before all else, be armed.


Benefits should be conferred gradually; and in that way they will taste better.


Entrepreneurs are simply those who understand that there is little difference between obstacle and opportunity and are able to turn both to their advantage.


For among other evils caused by being disarmed, it renders you contemptible; which is one of those disgraceful things which a prince must guard against.


God is not willing to do everything, and thus take away our free will and that share of glory which belongs to us.


Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil.

-----------------

And to keep away the flamefest, I do not agree with any of these, except in pointing out this is how many rule.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. I'll admit I happen to love Machiavelli

include though his lines about Mercs, and how using those will weaken the prince

[kineneb]

31. here you go... Machiavelli on Mercenaries

From _The Prince_ by Niccolo Machiavelli, ~1515

Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous. If a prince bases the defense of his state on mercenaries he will never achieve stability or security. For mercenaries are disunited, thirsty for power, undisciplined, and disloyal; they are brave among their friends and cowards before the enemy; they have no fear of God, they do not keep faith with their fellow men; they avoid defeat just so long as they avoid battle; in peacetime you are despoiled by them, and in wartime by the enemy. The reason for all this is that there is no loyalty or inducement to keep them on the field apart from the little they are paid; and this is not enough to make them want to die for you. They are only too ready to serve in your army when you are not at war; but when war comes they either desert or disperse.

---

Mercenary commanders are either skilled in warfare or they are not: if they are, you cannot trust them, because they are anxious to advance their own greatness, either by coercing you, their employer, or by coercing others against your own wishes. If, however the commender is lacking in prowess,in the normal way he brings about your ruin. If anyone argues that this is true of any other armed force, mercenary or not, I reply that armed forces must be under the control of either a prince or a republic: a prince should assume personal command and captain his troops himself; a republic must appoint its own citizens, and when a commander so appointed turns out incompetent, should change him, and if he is competent, it should limit his authority by statute. Experience has shown that only princes and armed republics achieve solid success, and that mercenaries bring nothing but loss; and a republic which has its own citizen army is far less likely to be subjugated by one of its own citizens than a republic whose forces are not its own.

---

Mercenary armies bring only slow, belated, and feeble conquests, but sudden, startling defeat.

[devilgrrl]

7. I think this country is a huge Junior High School

and wonder if it is acting it's age or it's shoe size.

What a joke!

One more thing... fuck the DLC.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Well there is that, after all we are just what 270 years old

that is YOUNG by any standard of civilization.

So it might be the terrible twos actually

But it is time we act as adults, I think we can do that as a nation

But first we need to recognize the problem

[Donnachaidh]

9. The country needs to lose it's obsession with HERO worship

It needs to get off it's FAT ASS and let ALL of Washington know that they are NOT *royalty*, they ARE ACCOUNTABLE for their actions.

And then WE have to MAKE them accountable. ESPECIALLY anyone who is running for President.

Who was it that said People should NOT fear their government - the GOVERNMENT should FEAR it's people was DEAD ON POINT. :grr:

[sinkingfeeling]

10. But this is a great Christian nation and everybody must obey the Ten Commandments at all times!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

11. How 'bout that

this started years ago. And honorable people seem to be discounted in favor of those with no ethics at all. However, I think this is changing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. I hope it is, truly

but I hold not much hope.

Seen some of this shit in the flesh at low levels. It is destructive

[magellan]

13. Why is anyone surprised that politicians lie?

The surprise is that people believe them and even defend/excuse their lies.

We were never meant to trust the government.

[marions ghost]

26. In a democracy

if the Govt is Us, then we ought to be able to "trust" the govt to be working for us, for the most part.

Now nobody with half a brain trusts the government--but we ought to be able to. There should be pride and honor in being a public servant. There should be a sense of diverse communities pulling together. But now it's everyone out for themselves, dog eat dog.

[magellan]

27. I have to disagree

Our founding fathers did not trust government and did not want us to trust it. That's why they gave us the Bill of Rights and created a system of checks and balances within the three branches. It's also why they wrote things like this:

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote! - Ben Franklin

Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

[marions ghost]

28. Of course there must be checks and balances

and we have the Bill of Rights and all those assurances...on paper. But the Rethuglicans have fully illustrated that the United States Constitution is 'just a piece of paper.' Without a strong judiciary and the political will to govern ethically, it all falls apart. To a very damaging extent we the People HAVE trusted too much. Our standards have been lowered, like the boiling frogs analogy. I don't think you and I are in disagreement there.

What I am talking about is our RIGHT to EXPECT our leaders to uphold the spirit of the constitution instead of finding ways to thwart it. We should EXPECT them to govern ethically. We should take it for granted that our leaders have the highest integrity. And we SHOULD be able to "trust" them to act in our best interests, whether under the spotlight or not. We should feel that our government and our community invests in us, if they want us to invest in them. We have a breakdown of that kind of trust (or "expectation" if you like) that is undermining every institution and arena in this country. It's dog-eat-dog everywhere now. Power is in the hands of a very few. The powerful have lost that trust--that symbiosis between governors and governed that a democracy demands.

We Americans deserve better. But we are going to have to adhere to a higher standard of ethical behavior and demand that that standard be upheld to the extent of the law (and have the courage to make new and better laws). I don't know if it can be done. But the alternative is to give up our RIGHTS to responsible government.

If you see the distinction I'm making, it's the difference between illusions and reality. No matter all the good intentions of our forebearers, it's not working now.

Here's a good article relevant to "The Public Trust" --which I guess is the sense that I am using the word 'trust.'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-moyers/delay-abramoff-and-the-_b_16534.html

[Echo In Light]

29. Thank you for that! "Politics is the shadow cast on society by big business" John Dewey

Or, put another way, the art of lying and manipulation.

[seabeyond]

15. we talk about ethics and lack of a lot in this house. maybe ought to become a priority again

i agree with you

and much more.

it is like starting all over again, .... begins with teaching our children.

[tom_paine]

17. This is certainly one aspect of it.

The problem lies with each and every one of. The problem is that so few of us, even here at DU, would be willing to admit it.

Something like this does not happen to a nation without at least some level of complicity and a much higher level of compliance by the Subjects of a Totalitarian Nation.

Oh, we can whine "it's not our fault", "the Bushies made us do it" "they stole our votes" whatever.

But as partially true those might be, it was onlyallowed to happen because we and our leaders abandoned the fight. Hell, our Democratic Leaders still don't seem to understand what they are fighting.

[hifalutin]

24. Just how many of our Democratic leaders are fighting for us?

'Hell, our Democratic Leaders still don't seem to understand what they are fighting.'

I could name them all on ONE hand.

[CT08]

19. the PR trap

It's nothing but business making you, your business, or your regime look good. This is always beneficial to those who control the distribution arms of the media. If they do't know what you don't tell them, they simply won't know.

The problem with this lately is that we are now in the information age...people with cell phone cameras, blogs, citizen journalists and the advent of technology that can store and document any event that can be recalled with a simple button push.

Fact is everyone's shit stinks but until you're in the room with them, you won't know how much it stinks.

[Indenturedebtor]

20. An ethics problem indeed

Honestly not being snide here... most Murikans don't know what ethics means. And if they did they probably wouldn't care.

Everyone is out to get theirs. Selfish, self destructive animals.

Don't believe me? Go work in business for awhile. It's like a snarling pack of hyenas out there.

I don't know what is to be done. But yes we could start by bringing back the constitution and by having some trials for our traitors.

[blues90]

22. one huge problem with this country is we make hero's out of

anyone and then people hold these hero's up to higher standards than the people can expect of themselves .

People seem to be in some illusion that someday the lies will all end and all will be well and fine . That could be possible if everyone stopped lying .

The USA has always been a nation that takes what it wants and everyone here seems to be fine with that and passes the guilt and blame onto someone else .

Put guns in the hands of the finger pointers and we would all be dead .

[Mountainman]

23. Bush and Cheney can't tell the truth to anyone.

One of the reasons I can't stand any conservative media etc. is that I always feel I'm being lied to and manipulated by propaganda.

[alarimer]

25. Republicans and the Christian right are ALL that is wrong with this country

They are responsible for every bit of it and deserve nothing but ostracism and contempt.

And the hell with Obama's "reaching across the aisle" bullshit.

[ensho]

30. and every one is on mood changing big pharma pills

nt

[HughBeaumont]

32. What The Wealthy Want, the Wealthy Will Get, No Matter WHAT the Cost.

That's what's wrong with this country.