I wish we had Iraqi citizen DUers

[chknltl]

Perhaps I just don't get out enough but I have not noticed many...ok no Iraqi DUers. We have DUers from a great many other countries and I have to believe that there must be internet access somewhere over in Iraq...so why don't they post their on the ground assessments here? Yeah I know, the latest flap over Hillary this and Barrack that takes priority over every damned thing including mCcain, (who imo, should be the bigger 'damned thing').

So why the need for knowing what is up in Iraq? Well I really do not see much in the way of a lively discussion regarding Iraq here. Do you suppose the bfee likes this particular status quo? Do you suppose the rovians want us to stay distracted with partisan politics instead of screaming out our collective outrage over the nightmare that is Iran? Good enough for me, if there is a strong likelihood that bush is against it, then I AM FOR IT...I don't need much more than that!

If we had a few Iraqi citizens* keeping us up to date then this could be of some benefit to the DU and perhaps translate into a further benefit to the citizenry of Iraq. It is NOT like we are getting any trustworthy data regarding Iraq from the bfee or the MSM. If the situation were reversed, wouldn't you want to get our story out in some way shape or form??? We DUers cheer on the locals who report in with breaking data regarding elections going on in their hometowns, so why not current reports from Baghdad and Basra...or even Tehran for that matter?

Wouldn't it be nice if we got regular reports as well from students at the various Universities over in Iran? Don't you want to know how they feel about the bfee's potential for turning their country into another nightmare like Iraq? What do they think of their leader? Do they hate America? Do they like kittens???

I actually thought about sending a request e-mail to the University of Tehran asking if they might have a few students willing to join and participate with the Democratic Underground. Seems harmless doesn't it? After-all, I could just as easily send such a request to the University Of Stockholm or Tokyo Universty....but then I thought to myself, would I wind up tripping some kind of Homeland Security defense alarms by sending an E-Mail out to the University of Tehran???? Will Blackwater representatives come whisk chknltl and his faithful dog Karma off to Gitmo for doing this?

I also tried asking a friend who has a relative working as a subcontractor over in Iraq. She refused to even ask him for me. All I wanted was for him to pass along a link to the DU to one of his Iraqi translators...She not only said "NO" but "HELL NO!!!" Her fears were that she did not want to get her contractor friend in any hot water and she had enough fears for his safety as it was. She did not want to send him ANYTHING which could lead to seeing him toe-tagged! (Oh, it turns out that he is a repuke supporter of bush who drinks the koolaid by the gallon... so it is unlikely that he would have passed along my little request anyway!)

So I ask you my fellow DUers: Would having new DUers from Iraq and Iran be a good thing? Could their on the ground reporting help us to better understand what is REALLY going on over in their countries? More importantly, is it worth the effort? Has life gotten so damned un-free in the land of the free that I should not risk trying to make such contacts? Oh, and am I gonna catch some sort of hell from the admin for even thinking such things without asking first?



*(that is if we were fairly sure that the posts were authored by honest-to-Allah Iraqi citizens in Iraq and not being written by an honest-to-God propagandist over at the CATO Institute or the A.E.I.)

[shireen]

1. i would love to see a more international perspective at DU

We have Canadians and British DU'ers. My cousin, socialdemocrat1981, is one of several Australian DU'ers. I was born and raised in Malaysia, but now live as a US citizen in Baltimore. Anyone else from other countries, or used to live in other countries?

As for Iran and Iraq, we would all benefit greatly having them at DU. They're the ultimate reality check. Here at DU, we're generally more informed than most US citizens, and even then, it's not enough. We need to see the world through their eyes.

[chknltl]

3. Thank you

Exactly my thoughts...so should I try to wrestle up some new DUers? Is it safe to even try?

[shireen]

8. Perhaps making them aware that DU exists is enough.

An invitation implies that we're hosts. But we're not -- we're just a bunch of people who come here to listen and talk. If they simply knew we existed, that would be enough. They could read the posts and decide for themselves if they want to jump in or not.

Maybe DU needs to start taking out Google ads? :)

[chknltl]

10. Yeah, I thought about that too...

...I was planning on wording it so as to convey that the DU is NOT actively seeking anyone. It is just me, chknltl, a member of the DU who feels that the benefit to the DU is worthy, that the benefit to the Iranian or Iraqi poster is also worthy. Knowledge exchange is important. The citizens of Iraq and Iran are NOT our enemies....by bringing them here, into our blogs and forums, a small slice of America will get to know them. This fiasco we call a war on terrorism has created a wall. I would like to see that wall torn down and this could be one brick in that wall removed...well that's how I see it.

A little further in this thread, Iwfern posted a link which I have begun mining. I will be posting my thoughts to some of those bloggers...

[bdamomma]

24. me too, I would love to hear from Iranians right about now.

regarding how they feel about Americans right now. I hate this how this thuggish regime wants to ruin and bomb yet another beautiful country, this must stop. As an Armenian American, I can't stop worrying about all the Armenians who label themselves Christians, among others living in Iran.

[Tejas]

2. I'd like their opinion on the free AK-47's that

we gave each Iraqi family but can't seem to trust law-abiding Americans with.

[chknltl]

5. Well there is that.....

...actually that WOULD be a good question to ask them right now. The maliki government is trying to get the al-Sadr's in Basra to lay those rifles down and leave the city! I would LOVE to hear what a member of al-Sadr's militia thinks about that...I would LOVE to hear what a non-partisan citizen of Basra thinks about this as well. Are the al-Sadr's patriots or terrorists?

[pbca]

16. Another mistake

CBC news did a piece on life in Iraq recently (on the nightly news - can't give you a link and as far as I know the video is posted nowhere) but apparently - between high unemployment, water and food shortages etc., most Iraqis are selling those weapons. Obviously they aren't selling them back to the US military....

[Karenina]

4. My observation over the past 7 years

is that those from this side of the pond have often been driven out or tombstoned for speaking the truth as they see it. Many others simply turn their backs in disgust.

[chknltl]

7. hmmm...This side of the pond???

Where would that be? Although I have seen the name before, I can not recall any of your posts. (sorry)

Wow, we TSed Iraqi and Iranian citizens???? Well that sucks! I can only guess that they got jumped by DU 'freepers' who were lookin to get them riled up enough to break the rules... just look at how many of our fellow DUers have been TSed from getting riled up defending their candidate. This is only conjecture though. Maybe trying to bring in differing opinions is not such a hot idea...I was unaware of this angle.

[pbca]

15. I seriously doubt

that they were jumped by DU 'freepers'

As a dual citizen (US and Canadian) currently living in Canada I have to seriously watch what I say. Americans, even 'progressive' Americans seriously live in a different world than everyone else - on the few occasions I've tried to (as diplomatically as possible) introduce what I see as reality I've been attacked, had posts closed/deleted by moderators and/or simply been ignored and watched the posts sink out of site with little or no response.

I think this is part of the reason that the US is in the trouble it's in: The perspective from outside the US is both offensive and alien to Americans - including Dems.

[chknltl]

17. The only way for that to change:

is through cross cultural exchange.

I am sorry to hear of your trials pbca. I have not myself noticed any such things here in the DU unwarrented. Perhaps I live in a bubble but I understand that there is indeed life outside that bubble. I take foreign views regarding America and especially regarding American foreign policy quite seriously.

I am an American who is beyond mortified by the actions of my country. We have a history of bad activites, from giving out blankets laced with small pox to this lands first inhabitants and the notions that this land was somehow OURS for the taking, right up through Viet Nam and our current fiasco over in the Middle East.

Change must come from within because we could wind up nuking those from without who would bring about change. I am not at all proud in knowing this. I am NOT a bully nor do I see my neighbors or friends as bullys and yet my nation is seen as the worst of bullys...I am embarrased by this.

[noamnety]

6. While we're waiting for that to happen

maybe you could kick and recommend this thread, which is like the next best thing - Raed Jarrar (one of the article's authors) is from Baghdad, and was living there through our "shock and awe" - now he's in the US.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x349144

He talks in the article about what the Iraqis think of their leader. They don't like him. He's a US-propped up person, exactly the sort of thing we always do when we go into a country to "create democracy" - we try to impose someone on the population who has the US's best interests at heart. From the article:

"Sadr called for nationwide civil disobedience that would have allowed his followers to flex some political muscle in a nonviolent way. His orders, according to Iraqi reports were to distribute olive branches and copies of the Koran to soldiers at checkpoints.

The Maliki regime responded by saying that individuals joining the nationwide strike would be punished and that those organizing it are in violation of the Iraqi Counter-Terrorism Act issued in 2005."

[chknltl]

9. WOWSERS Iwfern!

I think I heard something like this on Mike Malloy two nights ago! I searched his message boards but did not happen across any hint of it. Without even askin, you just delivered to me the very item I may have been looking for! Thank You.

[noamnety]

11. You might also like this

He did a speaking tour in Michigan a couple of weeks ago. Here's the youtube from that (in three parts).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v2EdVDdzm-w

I'm really glad you asked for this. Not this exactly, but to hear the Iraqi voices. It's one of the points Raed makes, that we aren't hearing their voices anywhere. The media covers what republicans think, what democrats think, as if that's fair and balanced, but they never give equal time (or any time) to what the Iraqis think.

I don't do much public speaking, but the last time I was asked to talk on a panel about Iraq, I asked the organizers if they could include a person from that region. I'd like to see all anti-war rallies at least make the effort to do that. (And kudos to the Winter Soldier organizers for making that happen during their panels.)

[chknltl]

12. Thank you

I sent my thoughts along to the Peace Center just now. Thank you for these links.:-)

[LynzM]

14. That's an excellent point....

"The media covers what republicans think, what democrats think, as if that's fair and balanced, but they never give equal time (or any time) to what the Iraqis think."

Yes, for sure. And yet how much Americans would bitch and moan if some other country came forcibly into the U.S., hunted down Bush and Cheney and publicly executed them, and instilled the leaders they wanted to see.

[kas125]

13. Raed is definitely one of the most important voices of the day

His testimony at Winter Soldier was amazing and I think it's something everyone should hear. They haven't put up the video yet, but here's a link to the audio:
http://www.radio4all.net/pub/files/[e-mail]/3035-1-20080324-March24-iraqis_upload.mp3

He also has a blog:
http://raedinthemiddle.blogspot.com/

[eridani]

18. Speaking of which--whatever happened to Riverbend?

Last I heard, her family made it to Syria. Nothing since.

[kas125]

20. I've been wondering, too.

There haven't been any new posts to her blog in ages. I hope they're okay.

[JCMach1]

19. It's bad... I have many Iraqi students... anyone with any money

has gotten their families out of there. Many of the professionals have landed in the UAE.

One of my students a couple of semesters back had his uncle murdered by Americans during the siege of Fallujah...

By murdered, I mean unarmed man blown away at close range.

You sure you want to hear about this regularly?

[chknltl]

22. Frankly: America NEEDS to hear this

I do not know how but I think I know why. In my heart I do not believe that We The People are bullies. I suspect that that the majority of the German civilian citizens during WWII were NOT bullies either. Knowledge is the first key to change, imo the knowledge of what is really going on in Iraq and Iran and the entire Middle East for that matter can sway opinions. We have been led down a bunch of paths, none of which portray reality. Perhaps one more path, one paved with eyewitness accountings will help to sway some of our opinions. Eventually a tipping point may be reached...

I dunno, I am new at this. I know that the crap the msm feeds us is propaganda, I know that our government has been shanghaied by profiteering monsters who value human life far far less than my countrymen value life. I feel that having the insights of those who are living out the nightmares in the Middle East can be a tool to getting my countrymen to sway from their opinions. Opinions which are at the moment based on propaganda and lies are what helps the bfee to keep the horrors coming. We all share the goal of wanting this to end, of wanting to see the bastards held to account for their crimes against humanity and eventually.... to see the Middle East repaired.

I am here, in America, on the inside. Change is easier from the inside than from without. America needs to wake up in order to force that change through... I suppose we could just sit back, watch American Idol as the world around us suffers, as millions more die and as that world finally gets so backed into a corner that it unites against America in the war to end all wars. Maybe that's what is needed! Silly me, I happen to have perhaps a ridiculous hope that there are yet alternatives.
Yes, I want to know what is going on, yes I think we need to know what is going on.

[Karenina]

27. Frankly: America DOES NOT WANT to hear it.

Americans-at-large, even on this board ARE BULLIES and until you HEAR THAT CLEARLY, you won't understand. You (general) have all the excuses as to why you are so misinformed, but of all nations have the best access to do something about it. However if any damn "furriner" dare post here and challenge your (general) mistaken beliefs s/he is attacked by a pack of pitbulls. INSTANTLY.

Americans cannot even bear to hear the truth from their own soldiers in their VALIANT effort to speak the truth to power. If even THEY are not supported, what truth-teller can expect ANYTHING from you? EVEN the willingness to SHUT UP AND LISTEN?

[chknltl]

28. Regardless of what Americans (in general) want...

...it is still something that is needed.

Sometimes the message can be lost because of the methods used by the messenger. For instance you are trying to tell me something bad about my country. I can accept the fact that this is up for discussion. I further sense hostility from you the messenger...that puts you as the deliverer of the important yet bad message as starting out on the wrong foot. Perhaps a better for instance: If I came at you all angry telling you that you had a piece of toilet paper stuck to your shoe, what would be remembered? My being an angry ass or the toilet paper which need removing?

Telling me I need to "HEAR THAT CLEARLY" is compromising your messege...one I am genuinely interested in. I can not know this but is it possible that a few of the DU bullies are less than happy with the messenger's methods? We are each unique and I can guarantee to you that I do not perceive myself a bully. I have been proven wrong before with my perceptions of myself...by someone in this very thread as a matter of fact, so I am at least open enough to learn.

Back to the message and my perception of it:

Perhaps I am being unrealistic but I don't see my fellow American as generally being a bully. If we were then why the bush spin for war? Why the lies and subterfuge? Why not just tell America that we are in a position to go steal another country's oil so lets go "get-er-done"??

I take no issue with the idea that humans, regardless of nationality, are not going to be happy when someone outside of their 'group' tells them that their group is doing something unethical or immoral.
We have been lied to. Most Americans are aware that they are being lied to, we accept that we are getting lies from bush, we accept that we can not trust our government. Are we right for our mistrust? Well bush-Clinton-bush has all but confirmed our mistrust. We still listen to them though...(and strongly disagree with their messages). This means to me that we are at least open to hearing other opinions.

I and others on occasion speak here about the horrors of depleted uranium. If our use of this material isn't one of our worst crimes against all life in the Middle East I don't know what is! When we post our threads we get jumped by the nay-sayers. A few of them can indeed be bullies BUT our message has gotten out over the years. I suspect if you ran a poll here in the DU regarding depleted uranium you would find that the majority of us are aware of it and are aware that it is continuing to cause major health issues with Iraq and Afghanistan. See? bad news about an activity done by our country and we accept that we are at fault, we accept that this is a terrible problem. At some point, we will have to clean up that mess and ya'know what, I'll bet that we accept the cost as well once we are all on-board with the 'whos', 'whats' and 'wheres'!. The story of depleted uranium is one which yet needs telling! There are those here who will continue dto do just that.

I am sorry if you feel that Americans in general are bullies...this has not been my experience. Our government has been the bully, at this point in our history our government does not represent us. Hopefully that will start to change with a change in our leadership. That change starts with an enlightened electorate...getting the information to that electorate is key. That is why I want to see our message boards, blogs and forums flooded with news from average citizens who are bearing the brunt of our bully government. If We The people had not been made aware of it, water-boarding would have escalated! We want it STOPPED, and I can guarantee you if we have access to all the rest of the horrors done in our name we would want them stopped too! We the people are NOT as heartless as our government would have you believe!

If I am wrong, I am open to hearing about it. I suck at debate but I make up for it by a willingness to listen and a willingness to admit that I am in error. If you care to continue, I am all ears... you will get no bullying from me. In the meanwhile I will still advocate for getting our victims to come forward with their tales, I will still feel that this is what We The People need to hear and I will still seek ways to put the two together. If there is a problem, then let's together figure out a solution. I want change to come from within. It will in the end be less costly that way in human lives and misery if change comes from that direction.

[Karenina]

29. Wonderful, thoughtful response, I do thank you for it!

What comes across as anger is DEEP PAIN and incredible frustration. I am printing your post out to allow myself the luxury of "analog" consideration of your communication! :hi:

[chknltl]

42. My apologies...

I could not know of course. Thank you for what wisdoms you have shared and what you may choose to further share. This is yet new to me and I may be operating with the innocence of a child due to my newness with all of this. There are mentions of names in this thread, 'Riverbend' for instance, and I have no knowledge who or what this name represents. Another poster passed along a bit of information regarding internet access in Baghdad, all of that information was completely new news for me.

I gain a tiny bit of enlightenment already due to this thread...enlightenment which I will gladly pass along to my own friends and relatives. I hope others who read here do the same...this is my 'goal' on a small scale, to gain knowledge from those who may know what is really going on...I believe that it could be important if this 'goal' got repeated on a vastly larger scale!

I say this because I truly feel that my fellow Americans are NOT the heartless monsters that others would paint us to be. I would like to see my fellow Americans focus on stopping the carnage...and I feel we can do just that IF the victims and potential victims are allowed to communicate with us. It could be a step in the right direction, a brick out of the wall.

Thank you for your understanding Karenina and please accept my apologies for my mistaking your deep pain for an anger directed at my naivety. :grouphug:

[JCMach1]

31. The sad part is many Iraqis are still quite pleased that we got rid of Saddam

they just simply would like to have their country back in one piece, thanks...

[chknltl]

34. Yes indeed and rightfully so!

This may sound a bit like snark because I got it from John Stewert, (well sorta), but the Maliki government was able to mount a campaign against an opposition faction within their own country, (the al-Sadrs-who I happen to be in agreement with). He failed in this campaign, stirring up a hornets nest that was doing just fine thank you. Maliki then turned to Iran to broker a deal with the al-Sadrs, which they did and now Maliki can turn to other pressing needs. Another-words the government of Iraq was able to mount a military action then resolve that action without having to depend on Americans! Yes, it is arguable that the failed action used American resources and perhaps our military for back-up BUT the point remains: The Maliki government can get along just fine without our help! Bringing our troops home and letting Iraq handle it's own affairs need not be the bloodbath that bush would have us believe! See? We can now walk away, we can give them their country back!

Frankly, with all the damage we have caused, in spite of the fairness that we stay and repair the damage, America needs to back off and allow Iraq to do it's own thing without our restricting failed policies! Whatever Iraq's future will be should NOT be determined by America, it is not our right to tell ANYONE how they will be conducting business, we need to stop being the bully!

I suspect that in spite of the fact that we have removed Saddam, MOST citizens of Iraq would prefer it if we allowed their nation to follow it's own destiny! I suspect that if a poll were taken throughout the entire Middle East, this would be the majority viewpoint. (Hell I'll even go so far as to say that this is a worldwide viewpoint!)

[NNN0LHI]

21. That will happen when you can turn on Hezbolla TV which is not allowed in America

Some people don't know that.

Don

[JCMach1]

32. Hezbolla TV ain't much punk- Al Jazeera English on the other hand

is the most LEFT of all the cable news outlets... no wonder they won't put it on American cable

[donheld]

23. I often wish that Iraqi was "Riverbend"

I've been wondering about her lately.

[proud2BlibKansan]

25. Well since much of Iraq has no electricity

blogging is kind of hard. :eyes:

[JTFrog]

30. Exactly. They don't even have the basic necessities. It doesn't take

a rocket scientist to figure out the answer to the O.P.

[otherlander]

35. Tierra y Liberdad actually posted some links

to blogs of people living in Iraq a while ago. Here are a couple of them that I read every week or so:

http://livesstrong.blogspot.com/

http://youngmammy.blogspot.com/

[tuckessee]

26. If we did have Iraqi citizen DU'ers.....

....ten percent would dead and another ten to twenty percent would be refugees.

[aikoaiko]

33. They are otherwise occupied.

but seriously, I agree that we would benefit greatly and perhaps could in some small way be helpful to them.

[LeftishBrit]

36. So do I...

But I wonder how many Iraqi citizens have access to the Internet; and of those who do, how many would feel safe in posting freely, even under a pseudonym.

[Karenina]

46. I'm sure most Iraqis have other priorities

than chatting with Amis. Little things like clean water, food, medical supplies, protecting their families from who knows whom kicking the door in right about now, cleaning the debris out of what once was a confortable home, maintaining contact with those in their community who have fled...

[Xithras]

37. Internet access in Iraq is poor quality, expensive, and dangerous to use.

It's uncommon for Iraqi's to have Internet access in their homes, and typically use Internet cafes instead. Since several of these have been bombed or people using them have been kidnapped and beheaded, most have closed, and the few that remain are under heavy and intimidating armed guard. It's pretty much only used for things that people consider necessary, like contacting overseas family by email. Nobody is going to waste time in one to chat with a bunch of curious Americans on a discussion board.

Or so says the Assyrian sitting a few feet from me, who has family in Baghdad and was raised there himself. He actually sent his family a laptop so they could pre-compose their emails at home. Now they can walk to the Internet cafe, plug the laptop in, and be back out the door after sending their emails in under a few minutes. It's safer that way.

[chknltl]

41. This is important, even this little bit has expanded on what little I know

I did not know that internet access was cut as badly there. I figured that the university and the schools would still have some access as well as the areas away from the fighting. I was thinking Basra, just before the Maliki fiasco would have been in better shape than Baghdad for instance. I truly have no idea how bad it is over in Iraq. (No I am not in the "Let them eat cake" naivity...I am well aware that there have been over a million deaths, perhaps twice that number are refugees, spotty electrical and water services and etc. all thanks to the bush doctrine of brutal thievery)

Iran on the other hand must have internet access. Again, it would be in universities and schools, those with some wealth and etc. From what I understand, by and large, the citizens of Iran do not perceive the citizens of America as war-mongers. I hear stories that Tehran is a typical modern European city and I hear hints that their citizenry are quite keen on America's elections.

Please let the Assyrian know that the bush crime family do not represent the citizens of America. We have been lied to and deceived, our government may have been hijacked by evil bastards out to destroy our democracy all the while using our military and resources in order to further steal from those without the power to resist. There may even come a time when We The People are as cut off from the internet as his relatives in Baghdad are. Cutting off communications between people is a method of keeping people pacified, keeping people from organizing. I would argue that restoring communication is the last thing that those bullies who profit from the bush crime family wants. This is why I suggest what I suggest in this thread!

In all honesty, the primary reason I have not tried contacting the University of Tehran is because I am concerned that such communications are carefully watched by my out of control government...that I may wind up on a list of 'terrorist sympathizers'. I am an American citizen who fears his government! Am I being unrealistic? I do not know...some of my fellow DUers would argue that democracy in America has failed, that we passed the brink but the citizenry has yet to see it. I have only HOPE that those DUers are wrong...I have hope that the next election will occur and that Barrack Obama will be able to restore our democracy and perhaps...well this is pushing it but perhaps the war criminals in our government will be brought to justice.

[Xithras]

45. Actually, Iraq has never had good Internet access.

Iraq was subject to technology sanctions following the first Gulf War that made it very difficult to get the hardware needed to set up Internet access. Hussein also didn't permit any communications systems to be installed if they couldn't be government monitored, and banned private ISP's (and satellite dishes, and cell phones, etc.) Internet access before the second war was only available to the universities on "approved" computers for "approved" students, and to a handful of people who obtained access from the government, and had government permission.

ISP's and Internet cafe's sprang up within weeks of the invasion during that lull when a completely free and equitable Iraq looked like a possibility. Once the insurgency kicked up, they found themselves targeted as symbols of the West, and by criminals looking to make money on people who were perceived as technologically skilled and therefore wealthy (by Iraqi standards). The laptop he sent over could be sold on the black market and would feed the typical Iraqi family for weeks.

Access there is still slightly better than it was pre-invasion, but only because there are still some Internet cafe's around and because the universities now offer open access to all students (which is the vast majority of Iraqi bloggers who DO exist originate). There are a handful of dial-up ISP's as well, but they get horrible connections (14.4 modem speeds) and only work when both YOUR power and YOUR ISP's power are up at the same time. Since the Iraqi phone system is basically a vintage 1970's network that has had no real maintenance since 1990, anything faster is out of the question.

Oh, and the Iraqi's in the U.S. know the score. They live in this country, speak english, and watch the same news and read the same websites we do. His perspective is slightly different, but he knows full well that Bush is an evil SOB (though he does place a lot more blame on the criminal element in Iraq than most DUers would).

[baby_mouse]

38. Why would they post here?

I don't mean to pour cold water over your enthusiasm but I rather doubt they would see anything to gain from doing so.

[Disturbed]

39. Try this site.

http://www.aliraqi.org/

[chknltl]

44. WOW!!!

I went there...I am thinking of signing up. Check out this thread regarding religion, depression and hope titled "Philosophical Pessimism...": http://www.aliraqi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=83546 This thread could just as easily have been posted in the DU. It has nothing to do with what I speak of here in our discussion but I am encouraged by the very fact such a forum exists.

I really am considering signing up but truth be told I am not sure what I would be able to contribute although I COULD INDEED learn much from this forum. Worse I fear my own government watchdogs will put me on some list with future consequences I can not at this point perceive.

The link is now bookmarked, added to my faves for exploration. Thank you for this Disturbed.

edited for spell check

[chknltl]

43. Well there is the old United we stand, divided we fail meme.

This is true on a worldwide scale as well because the internet has truly shrunk this planet down to a community. More importantly as I have been saying throughout this thread, I feel that my fellow Americans are not represented by our government. The bush crime family are brutal bullies, monsters actually, who have done considerable carnage in our name. I do not feel that the average American citizen if given the facts would have advocated such horrors as have been perpetrated by our government. I feel that we should find ways to reach out to our victims, find ways to get their stories out to the American peoples.

How can this help? I used the example of waterboarding earlier in this thread. As that story filtered through to the American peoples a collective outrage ensued. No, of course not everybody agreed on the criminality of waterboarding but it took hardly less than a month before each and every American citizen of voting age to know and understand exactly what water boarding was and that our government had been using it as well as other forms of torture. In this example, We The People gained a tiny bit of enlightenment and reacted...we still react. Collectively we are against torture and the more we talk about it the more we are pushing back against our government.

Do you see now how this can help? Yes we ARE truly distracted by American Idol and a few sermons by the Reverend Wright BUT that does not mean that Americans are unable to focus on the crimes that our out of control government commits! By flooding our blogs, forums message boards and etc. the stories of our victims will reach us...we will talk about those stories and I argue that those stories will have the same impact on us that news of waterboarding had on us. Perhaps a tipping point can be reached, one where the sleeping giant finally reawakens...

Perhaps I hope for too much. As I said to others in this thread, perhaps a brick in the wall will get removed, it is my hopes that this removed brick will let us see not only the naked Emperor but our naked selves as well.

[Karenina]

40. . .

:kick: