I became an Independent today.

[eagler]

I could see that the Democrats were not going to pursue the things they were elected to do and I realized it was to make a change.

[stopbush]

1. Buh-bye.

[shadowknows69]

11. Yeah, I know it's a rule

but before we start tombstoning Dems that turn Ind en masse maybe we should all work together to make this a party they'd want to come back to. Just my two cents.

[Clark2008]

41. It's not a rule to be a registered Dem.

We just have to support them as nominee.

I'm an Independent.

[shadowknows69]

51. Oh even better, I did not know that

Then some people need to shut the fuck up. Not you obviously Clark.

[Clark2008]

115. I think they don't expect folks to be registered Dems because

whole swaths of the country don't require it.

For example, none of the Southern states requires one to be registered with any party in order to vote in the primaries. You just go and declare in which primary you plan to vote on the day you vote and you're given that party's ballot.

It wouldn't be fair to whole masses of us who don't register with a party because it's inconvenient and we don't have to.

[jollyreaper2112]

171. I'm not a dem

Registered indie right here. Even voted for Nader in 2000. I figured Gore was a shoe-in and wanted to make sure my vote counted for getting some alternative voices out there. Had no idea it would be so close. (I live in Florida, *sigh*). Been voting Dem ever since Shrubby got in. I'm not voting for principle these days, I'm voting for survival. My problem with the Dems is they seem to be sniffing GOP butt too much most of the time and just following along with the same wrongheaded policies the GOP champions. But still, the lesser of two evils is still the lesser of the evils, even though they're still evil.

[GreenPartyVoter]

67. Well, I would not have been allowed to stay so long if it was. :^)

[Eurobabe]

74. Yeah me too, since 1992

The only time I registered Dem was for the closed primary in OH in 2005. But I always vote Dem.

[shadowknows69]

79. I was on a similar rant once and I was told my someone the opposite

Similar venom ensued.

[Ariana Celeste]

98. I'm not registered with any party, myself.

Just so happens I support (D)'s.

[JackRiddler]

102. This attitude is what really kills the Democrats.

The voter owes the party nothing. It's the other way around.

[Egalitarian]

121. Kick. Many brains may be confused, or threatened but this is no riddle.

[ecstatic]

160. Why is it OK to be Green on here then?

Don't get me wrong, I side with Greens more than the Dems but Greens have no chance in hell of ever winning anything.

[brazos121200]

2. What were they elected to do? And how?

[walldude]

76. Um they were elected to stand up to Bush and his failed

policies. But they are too worried about their political careers to grow the spine necessary to do the job. When a Republican says this to your face: (John Boehner) "What we really expect out of the Democrats is for them to treat us as they would liked to have been treated." You don't do what he asks you run him over with a fucking freight train. The Dems rule Congress, they need to start acting like it. What? Are they afraid of being accused of not supporting the troops?

[helderheid]

3. I understand where you're coming from - what I did was join PDA

www.pdamerica.org

[Parche]

4. Democrats

Things take time, you cant do everything in a month or less, it will take 10years
to undo the mess Bush has created

[eagler]

7. They are already accomodating and backing down

That's all I need to see.

[stopbush]

15. You lack guts, my friend.

I've been a Democrat since 1972. I've seen a lot of shit in my time, and I've supported the Ds through
times that make 2007 look like a trip to Disneyland.

"They're already accomodating and backing down." The person backing down is YOU, eagler.

Have fun in the lukewarm land of the Independents. You're now aligned with Lieberman. Enjoy!

[Parche]

73. backing down

Exactly, what have they backed down from........they have done more with more oversight
hearings then the Repubes have had in 6-12years.............

Remember Rome wasnt built in a day.................

[brentspeak]

86. He also lacks specifics.

[DUyellow]

20. They shouldnt have said that they were going to...

do something about this war during the elections. They have the backing of America right now and they are scared to do the moral thing. They are worried about future elections. More of the same, no better then what was there before.

Then you have Obamma, Clinton, and everybody else running for elections doing nothing to stop this war. If they spent half the time on ending this war that they already do on getting the nomination we would make some progress. Oh, and they would get a hell of a lot more votes the they would get running around the country.

[stopbush]

37. Yeah, the independents are a real force for change, aren't they?

They've got the organization, the votes and the power to make a real difference in politics.

BTW - the Dems do have the backing of the people, they are moving forward on Iraq AND they can also concentrate on future elections. What makes you
think they can only do one thing at a time? The movers and shakers in Congress are not the people running for president. By summer, the presidential
field will be down to maybe 6 people, tops. The rest will have dropped out like Vilsack.

Jesus, if the Dems were ONLY pressing the "out of Iraq" issue, you'd be bitching that they're not looking toward '08 while the Rs were pressing full steam ahead.

What the Dems do in Congress is going to influence who gets the nomination in '08. At this point, it's all a sideshow. Let the hopefuls beat up on each other,
because Al Gore is going to get the nod in '08 at take office in '09 anyway. Hillary & Obama are going to be fighting over the VP spot.

[eagler]

53. As a matter of fact they are.the number of registered independents

is larger than Republicans and right behind the Democrats.

[hfojvt]

62. trouble is that they have less choice

unless their state has an open primary law. Take, Lieberman, please. A Democrat gets a chance to make Lamont a candidate by voting in a primary. An independent does not. If progessives become independents in large numbers, then they are conceding the Democratic party to the centrists and DLCers. Which will logically mean even more Lieberman-type candidates. The primary is at least half the battle. Sounds to me like you are giving up.

[Pastiche423]

107. What hogwash!

You don't know what you're talking about.

"If progessives become independents in large numbers, then they are conceding the Democratic party to the centrists and DLCers."

Where in the hell did you get that piece of bs from?

For 32 years I was a registered Democrat. I became an Independent after the '04 primaries. I wasn't able to vote for the candidate of choice because by the time the primaries came to my state, I HAD NO CHOICE.

Btw, at least in my state and five other states I have lived in, one can change parties for the primary and back afterwards.

It has absolutely NOTHING to do w/centrists or DC-hellers.

[w4rma]

120. So you only care about the Presidential election, Pastiche423. (nt)

[Pastiche423]

133. How did you get that from what I wrote?

[w4rma]

139. Because your complaint is only about the Presidential primaries.

"For 32 years I was a registered Democrat. I became an Independent after the '04 primaries. I wasn't able to vote for the candidate of choice because by the time the primaries came to my state, I HAD NO CHOICE."

[Pastiche423]

153. My post was about WHEN I changed parties

It was the last straw for me. I have been a Liberal from the git-go. While I remained a Liberal in thought and in voting, the Dem party moved rightward. I din't and wouldn't.

Before I made the move, I contacted my country clerk. If there is a need during primaries, I can switch parties, as long as it's 30 days before the election.

For an example, if Al Gore decides to run, I can switch to Dem during the primaries, then switch back after I vote for him.

[w4rma]

155. And again the only reason you state for switching back is the Presidential primaries.

"For an example, if Al Gore decides to run, I can switch to Dem during the primaries, then switch back after I vote for him."

There are state and local and also Congressional primaries to vote in also. They are **all** important, not just the presidency.

[Pastiche423]

156. My rep has been in congress for twenty years

Since I have lived here, there has never been a Democratic opponent to Rep. Peter DeFazio, ergo, no need for a primary.

Same goes for Senator Wyden.

What really is your beef w/me?

[w4rma]

157. My beef is you advocating that folks go indy and not vote in Democratic primaries with the exception

of the Presidential primaries.

When progressives do this it reduces the number of progressives in Democratic primaries and increases the chances for DLCers to win them.

[Pastiche423]

159. I have advocated NOTHING

What I have said is about me, one voter, one conscience. If you read my last post closely, you would have realized that in my state, Oregon, there have been no Democratic primaries for congress people since I moved here.

In the years I have lived here, I have organized fundraisers, set up web sites (for free) and sat in my wheelchair on street corners, in the rain, along w/people that are Dems, Greens and Indies for DEMOCRATIC candidates.

So, how does my registration affect the DC-hellers? No matter which party I affiliate myself w/, I will never again (voted for Kerry/Edwards in 2004} vote for a DCLer.

[w4rma]

163. You should be more clear about that so that folks won't get the wrong idea, imho. (nt)

[Pastiche423]

164. What wrong idea?

Being a registered Independent is wrong? And what "folks" are you referring to?

I was very clear in my posts. They would have been clear to you, as well, if you had read them.

[w4rma]

166. Being a registered independent IS wrong when it prevents one from voting in Democratic primaries.

That is the wrong idea that you appear to be promoting. So, just try to be clearer that you aren't, if indeed you aren't.

[Pastiche423]

169. See my post #153

In the five+ years I have been here, I've never seen you have such a problem reading another's posts. You've seemed to be an intelligent guy and have been on the same side of many issues as I have.

I don't understand the problem you are having now.

I have not been advocating.

I have not been promoting.

I am not even suggesting that anyone do as I have done.

[nadinbrzezinski]

127. Ok... didn't Lamong WIN the primary

so by that logic, what is Lieberman doign in the Senate?

(and yes I do understand how hightly unusual that was)

[myrna minx]

5. Hooboy.

:popcorn:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

6. Buh-bye.

[NYCGirl]

8. So long — don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. NT

[slackmaster]

9. Does your state have "open" primaries?

Here in California an independent can vote in any (one) major party's primary.

[bottomofthehill]

12. Posting similar messages at the same time

At the risk of sounding arrogant, Great minds think alike, or as my kids say, JINX you owe me a coke.

See below

[bottomofthehill]

10. Where do you live?

In some states you may have just removed yourself from the Primary-Caucus process.

Kind of cutting off your nose to spite your face, what is the Independent Party stance on the War?

[magellan]

13. If I were a Dem today, I'd join you

As it is I'll be switching to Dem to vote for Kucinich in the primaries, then switching back to Indy.

[bottomofthehill]

22. So what does that mean?

You really are a Democrat because you vote in the primary or you are just throwing a monkey wrench into the Democratic primary process as an outsider. How about this, pull a Republican ballot instead and vote for the weakest one of them.

[magellan]

33. How is voting for the candidate who speaks for me

..."throwing a monkey wrench into the Democratic primary process as an outsider"?

Piss off AD. No one tells me who to vote for.

[DancingBear]

59. Word n/t

[bottomofthehill]

151. Pretty simple, you are not a Democrat, yet you vote in our primary.

I am not telling you who you can or cant vote for I am simply saying you are an outsider who chooses to come and go from the party when it is convenient to you. Why should we in the Democratic party care who you vote for if you are not a member of the party, work to get Dennis Kucinich in your parties primary, or write him in.

I would not tell you who you can vote for but you are not a member of the Democratic party so why vote in our primary if not for selfish reasons.

WRITE IN KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT OF THE INDEPENDENT PARTY

As for the piss off comment, I am glad you left the party and wish you all the best in your new home with those who stand for nothing

[magellan]

165. Wow, what a load of purist crap

I'm an outsider who chooses to come and go from the party whenever I choose? :rofl: Oh please, indulge me. Tell me who I've voted for over the last 15 years. You'd no doubt be surprised to learn the truth, but then I don't think you're as interested in the truth as you are trumpeting your own biased assumptions.

Selfish? Hm. How about those who vote outside their party in states with open primaries, are they selfish too? Guess I got the whole 'democracy' thing wrong.

"WRITE IN KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT OF THE INDEPENDENT PARTY" -- :wtf: He's a DEM, and he speaks for me. If you don't like that, why don't YOU work to get Kucinich thrown out of your precious party?

And btw, independent isn't my "new" home, which you might have realized if you'd read my original reply correctly instead of jumping on your high horse. I've been an indy all my life, and the shitty purist attitude within the Democratic Party as displayed by yourself is an excellent example of why.

Again, and with loads of processed chemical-ridden sugar on top, POAD.

[bottomofthehill]

167. Are you really this stupid

What is the "truth" have you been voting for Democrats the whole time while being a registered Independent, you tricky thing you.

If you are an Independent, than vote in your own primary, vote for anyone you want in your primary, write in anyone you want.

Have enough balls or ovaries to say piss off and die you asshole

[magellan]

168. Okay

PISS OFF AND DIE YOU ASSHOLE.

:rofl:

[Richard Steele]

14. Wow! So you're not a registered repub anymore? Congratulations!

[wicket]

16. Muahahahahahahahaha!!!

:D

[shadowknows69]

24. We need to cut some slack people

I've been a democrat since 18 but I've always questioned whether I shouldn't be an independent because I've never voted just the party line and at least locally I've probably voted for as many repubs as I have dems. I see turning indpendent as a legitimate protest to our party's problems and lack of strength. Is it any greener over the fence? Hells no, but I don't think the party will stop anyone if they want to come back. Gods forbid we should discuss what caused this switch and try to make someone see the light instead of casting them out instantly.

[eagler]

61. I'm shocked!

[Richard Steele]

174. So, what exactly has disappointed you in our first 2 months fighting against 10 YEARS of Repub rule?

Wassamatter, the nice Dems didn't just wave a majick wand
and make REALITY go bye-bye?

This shit we're in didn't happen overnight, and it took a lot
of years laying the groundwork before the Lil' DictatorTot
siezed power in the bloodless coup of '00.

But since the Dems can't just INSTANTLY counteract DECADES
of stealthy planning the MOMENT they get their noses above
water, we should just walk away from them forever...right?

You should change your name to "WindowPane", because you
are pretty damn TRANSPARENT.

[Midlodemocrat]

17. What about the primaries?

And what has the 'Independent' Party done lately? Did I miss their platform?

Must have.

[manic expression]

96. What about them? n/t

[dapper]

18. I've had that feeling recently....

They are not getting anything done.


Man, I love all the people who are saying "don't let the door..." - Sounds like the fanatical people who only see things one way.

Good Luck!

Dapper

[Bake]

23. Um, this IS, after all, the DEMOCRATIC Underground.

So yeah, a lot of us happen to be Democrats. And have been Democrats for a long time.

Bake

[DUyellow]

35. So what do you think the average Dem is thinking?

They are not happy and they want change in this war.

[CreekDog]

72. So, after two months of a Democratic Congress

With the Senate half of Congress dependent upon Joe Lieberman,

You're saying, time's up?

In other words, if the Dems aren't as strong as you'd like, you bail, now?

Nice world you live in that you expect your way so quickly.

[Ladyhawk]

131. I agree. Good luck!

I'm not married to the Democratic Party. If someone sees a way to make a difference outside the party, good for them. :shrug:

Personally, I expect more of our "leaders," but the years of Republican rule seem to have cowed them. The Dems in office are the only ones who can turn this thing around. I hope they will, but they seem to lack the necessary chutzpah. We'll see. The whole damn thing makes me feel powerless.

[Beelzebud]

19. If they don't take a real stand on Iraq, soon, I'll be an independant as well.

[bottomofthehill]

29. What is the Independent Party stand on Iraq

It must be really good if so many good Democrats (like Joe Leiberman) are willing to leave the Party and join the Independent movement

[Beelzebud]

32. Joe Lieberman is the CT for Lieberman party. Bernie Sanders is Independant.

And Bernie Sanders is for ending this war NOW.

[TheWraith]

109. For starters, it's spelled "independent"

And second, Sanders is not an Independent, he's an independent. There is no national Independent party.

And I must concur with my fellows: don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. If you seriously believe that having a temper tantrum, or taking your toys and going home, is going to increase your political power or value as a voting bloc, then you deserve the ignominy that you're going to get.

Do you know why Democrats don't play to the far left, but stay on the near left and center? Because the far left is tempermental, impossible to please, and willing to give up over the smallest roadblock or perceived infraction on the part of "their" candidates. Yes, more progress could have been made on the war, but please tell, what exactly would you have them do that wouldn't be either blocked in the Senate by a Republican filibuster, or vetoed by Shrub? They have, at least, spent seven weeks putting pretty much every Republican in DC on the wrong side of public opinion, which is the first step in getting them to break with Bush. Tell me, in no uncertain terms, what exactly would you have them do differently?

[More Than A Feeling]

116. Wow, so voters who choose to align with neither party are children?

If thats not what you meant, I don't know what this was supposed to mean: "throwing a temper tantrum, or taking your toys and going home".

How can you expect someone to listen to you when you are suggesting that you don't respect them?

[AlCzervik]

21. oh yeah those independents are making a HUGH difference, i'm SERIES!!!11.

[shadowknows69]

34. Well when the media allows a third party to have a voice in this country

maybe they will.

[WinkyDink]

94. I remember John Anderson, went to one of his rallies even.

[Double T]

25. 'WE' need to 'light a fire' under the Democratic Leadership's ASS.........

and hold them to their commitment to change the course of this nation; they are letting themselves and the Democratic Party down and 'WE' All will pay the consequences for 'business as usual' in the 2008 election.

[Critters2]

70. How do you recommend we do this?

Why weren't the elections a clear enough message as to what people want done?

[Double T]

113. Time to start calling our Democratic Leadership on the carpet.........

by making personal calls by telephone and letting their aids know how frustrated 'WE' are with their lack of true resolve to get our nation moving away from bushco's 'war'. The phone call should be well planned ahead of time by making a list of specific talking points and 'demands'. Then 'WE' will see what happens.

[manic expression]

100. Won't happen

they care about $$$$, they care about having a plush career in Congress; they DON'T care about what we want.

The Democrats are bourgeois to the bone, do you think they care about anyone who isn't rich?

[Double T]

114. I agree with YOU on most of your points. I am still NOT ready to........

throw in the towel on Pelosico; there has to some way to get our representatives to represent the will of the majority. I'll be on the phone to our representative's aids in the morning.

[Norquist Nemesis]

26. You do what you gotta do, but I fail to see how becoming an

Indy changes things.

[jobycom]

27. Then you've surrendered all chance of making a difference.

As a Democrat, you had the opportunity to influence what happened in the party. Not much chance, obviously, because you are only one person and no one gets their way all the time, especially when a majority wants something else--they used to teach that in kindergarten, but I guess they stopped.

Now you have no chance. None of the Dems running in the primary have any reason to care what you want or think. During the general election both parties have to grab for votes in the middle, so they, again, don't have any reason to care what you want or think.

But hey, feel good about yourself, because that's what politics is all about, right? Take your ball, go home. That'll show 'em. If not, you could always scream or hold your breath until they listen to you.

[Leopolds Ghost]

130. A majority of Democrats wants something else -- besides ending the war now?

[jobycom]

147. Here, watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEJL2Uuv-oQ

Especially the part about a veto. It doesn't matter what the majority of Democrats want, it matters what the majority of Americans want, and can agree to.

[kirby]

28. Say Hi to Lieberman

Tell your fellow independent Lieberman, I said Hello over there.

[Beelzebud]

31. I'll say hi to Bernie Sanders, not the CT for Lieberman candidate.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. I've been a Dem since 1965 but owe no allegience to "The Party".

I have no intention in leaving the party but the bosses have to work for my vote instead of relying on the "not as bad" insurance they invoke every 2 years.

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." --Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

"Were parties here divided merely by a greediness for office,...to take a part with either would be unworthy of a reasonable or moral man." --Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1795.

[shadowknows69]

36. Well quoted

and well said.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bake]

39. Holy crap that's one giant kitty!!

Is that REAL????? Wow. Just wow!

Bake

[d_b]

40. That's a big pussy.

[Ian David]

50. Exactly. He sure is. n/t

[mmonk]

43. I mean

is that cat real?

[Ian David]

47. No, it's photoshopped. n/t

[mmonk]

56. I was wondering.

You can't see the right hand and the left hand appears a little large or not naturally sized. Pretty good hoax.

[d_b]

52. naw

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/bigcat.asp

[Beelzebud]

44. What's that cat's name? Harry Reid?

[Bake]

42. So, eagler, why are you still here?

This being, you know, the DEMOCRATIC Underground.

Bake

[Hell Hath No Fury]

49. Contrary to what many here believe...

you do NOT have to be a registered Democrat to participate -- you can be of any party, just so long as you obey the board rules and do not advocate against the Dems when election time comes.

We have always had Greens, Indies, and even a few GOP onboard the entire time I have been here.

[Bake]

57. I'm well aware of that.

Since I've been here pretty much from the beginning.

On the other hand, it's one thing for a Dem to criticize a fellow Dem. It's another for a former Dem/now independent to bash a Dem. I don't take that terribly kindly.

Bake

[DancingBear]

66. Um, I hate to break this to you,

but when it started it was Democratic UNDERGROUND.

Big difference.

Now it's DemocraticStatusQuo, as we all know.

[Bake]

68. Which word you choose to emphasize matters not a whit.

Both are of equal importance. And I know this, because, like I said, I've been here almost from the beginning. Democratic Status Quo? Not here. But I'm still a Democrat, and I'll work to change the party before I take my little red wagon and go home.

You don't have to "break" anything to me. I've been here. I know. Perhaps you should join eagler among the independents.

Bake

[DancingBear]

87. If that means I should think for myself,

then perhaps I shall.

You'll NEVER change the party (much too dangerous for those entrenched within it), but the belief that you actually think you can is what keeps you going. In the meantime, the party soldiers on as a pretend alternative, and it does so without fear, knowing full well that the lemmings will return home every election cycle.

In this regard, both parties "loyalists" are indistinguishable from each other. Not what you want to hear, I'm sure, but true nonetheless.

You have no stake in wanting to fix anything - you merely want your side to prevail because you WANT to believe they represent you.

One look at the Democratic Senate should convince anyone that that is not the case.

They were elected to be a change agent and to END THIS WAR - they were NOT elected because people really wanted them instead of Republicans. A cadaver could have beaten the Republicans this year, thanks to Bush and Bush alone.

Even with this mandate, they show themselves to be incapable of taking a stand.

Gutless wonders do nothing for me. I will vote for those who stand for something.

[Edweird]

45. You may have become part of the problem, instead of part of the solution.

I am angry as hell about the lack of fortitude our reps have shown thus far. But, quitting the party to vote (I) is as good as a vote for (R). It doesn't make sense to vote for a candidate that has no realistic prospect of winning. We need every vote we can get to overcome their diebold advantage.

[manic expression]

97. Here's the thing

for someone who wants things to change, a vote for (D) is futile at best.

[Edweird]

101. If there were Independents with a reasonably certain chance of winning,

I would agree with you wholeheartedly. I am not the least bit impressed with our senate reps. The reality (as I see it, anyway) is that the Dems might win in '08 IF they don't screw up, and IF everybody pulls together and votes (D). Remember Nader. I don't think it was an accident that the 'pukes were rumored to have helped him. And lieberman. Again, it was in the 'pukes interest to see our house divided. As it will be in '08. If our house is divided, the 'pukes win. The one thing they have going for them is voter discipline. I realize that the (D) vote isn't perfect. I myself am very pro-gun which puts me at odds with some (D) platforms. That is a compromise I am comfortable with for the sake of the greater good. So, you are certainly able to vote (I) on principle, however, I personally feel that is a waste. As always, your mileage may vary.

[manic expression]

103. True

The electoral system caters to the two big parties, this is a huge problem for everyone.

It's a quandry, and I guess different people have to answer it in different ways.

[PhilipShore]

136. The problem for me is that even the Democrats have no power...

Power is more then getting "elected" to sit on a chair in congress. Power in politics, I think comes from following or at least attempting to follow -- the creed of a true democracy.

The politicians, every 4 years - only think about democracy around election time, when they are about to get elected, then they come up with one or two slogans - and refuse to discuss other hot button issues.

Every 4 years it's the same mantra: Homosexuals, health, jobs, womans rights, race; they are of course important causes to give liberty and justice for all in a free democracy, but to represent the Will of the people is to not just represent; the same thing over and over again.

What about militarism, pollution, alternative health care, consumer rights, the need for legal aid for all, and the need to end the death penalty should be central, as well as and end to hunting and all guns, Union rights, but real union rights (hell, when I called the Union, I could not even join, because they said I need to have a Union job first) But what if there are no jobs in the category that I want to work in?

Why not let everyone join a union - not some elite middle class? The right to free assembly, should be a given; hell when I go to demos they just shove people into police barricades (that is free assembly?)

Then I have to listen to some lunatic "rant and rave" at the demos and it's the same lunatics at all the demos that talk.

If the Democrats really cared about their own party, they would of been marching in the streets when the DLC came to power, to have them kicked out.

America is a country in revolution, regardless of what any political Party says wants or thinks. Are the politicians going to join America, the revolution? No they are having tea with rich Saudis, that want to take our democracy and burn it to the ground. Wake up!

[eridani]

135. Lefties have been acting on that principle for the last 40 or so years now

So, how's that been working out for us? :sarcasm:

How is it that the Repubs managed to change from a party whose president said that people who wanted to get rid of Social Security were stupid to one which STILL is putting that very unpopular notion on their legislative agenda despite currently being a minority party?

[Ress1]

46. Tunnel vision.

Democrats left the party in '92 and '94 when they selfishly decided the party wasn't good enough for them. They didn't see the big picture, they didn't realize the result of their decision would result in helping elect the most dangerous man ever in the world to office. Hell, Nader even worked to get Bush elected, just because he was mad at Democrats. So go ahead and play your games because your feelings are hurt, maybe you can help get the Republicans back in power, maybe more wars, maybe less social programs, maybe more tax cuts for the rich. See you on the dark side.

[mmonk]

48. I understand your feeling.

Seems I'm now a democrat by default instead of like in the past, by pride. However, I can't change the party back from the outside.

[Horse with no Name]

54. So why are you still here?

There are plenty of Independent sites who will applaud your decision to go against Democrats.
This isn't one of them.

[Lance_Boyle]

88. I'll applaud his or her decision.

I've been registered "unaffiliated" forever - never wanted any party to think it could count on me, 'cuz I know I can't count on any of them.

[Individualist]

55. Voters sent a message in November

The party has stuck its fingers in its ears and is singing la, la, la.

[brazos121200]

77. When teh Repubs took over Congress back in '93 they had less of a majority than we have now,

but they took the lead and set the agenda, and for a long while Clinton was regarded as irrelevant. When the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, Clinton was able to at least get back into the picture by his sympathetic talks about the bombing, but until then the Repubs literally ran the country from the Congress. And even after Oklahoma City the Repubs had more power in running things than did the President. They knew how to band together and delay their personal agendas for the good of the party. Apparently, the Democrats never learned this lesson.

[CreekDog]

82. Brazos...wrong...Dems don't have the #'s that Repubs did in '95

They have 1 more house member than the Republicans did after 1994, but they have fewer Senators and 1 of the Senators they have is Joe Lieberman.

It's one thing if your argument was correct, but it's not.

[brazos121200]

95. My point was that with one less seat in the House they still

were able to control the government by sticking together with a cohesive plan called the "Contract with (on) America". They did have more seats than we do in the Senate, but it was Newt Gingrich's House that controlled the agenda during those months.

[CreekDog]

106. Brazos, but you aren't right

All the legislation the Republicans passed in the House had to go through the Senate and having a handful more votes in the Senate was critical in doing that. They never got their balanced budget amendment, nor did they get to institute term limits. Many things the Dems are passing in the House are getting stymied in the Senate now just like then.

Second thing is that Clinton cleaned their clocks in the budget debate. Gingrich dared that shutting down the government would get him his way --he lost badly because Clinton held his ground, and Dole bailed on the 2nd shutdown when the public turned against Gingrich in a bad way.

Classic overreaching and that's what Gingrich did and it ensured that Clinton was reelected. I think Pelosi did learn from Republicans and knows the limits of her power. I wish she wasn't limited but she is, it's a simple fact.

I just think your insistance of 1 more seat then in the House being equated with equal power to what the Democrats have now. What are you smoking? Do you know your civics and what actually happened then?

[w4rma]

158. Republicans have the 4th estate in both cases. You underestimate the power of the media. (nt)

[Porcupine]

58. In search of a congressional spine......... good luck. nt.

.

[valerief]

60. I think you want independentunderground.com. This is the wrong site for you. nt

[Xenotime]

63. Don't let the door hit you!

[Bake]

64. Oh great. Maybe you should vote for Nader - again?

Since he has so much chance of actually winning, you know.

Bake

[DancingBear]

65. Oh, I forgot

We're supposed to vote for someone who can WIN, rather than someone we might actually believe in.

That whole democracy thing got you a bit flummoxed, eh?

[Bake]

71. Nice straw man.

We've got some strong candidates. And one REALLY strong candidate-to-come (we hope). If you can't find anyone in this field to support, either you're not trying very hard, or you're just not a Democrat.

Am I tired of losing elections? You're g*dd*mn right I am. What's the point of being ideologically "pure" while the Repukes take this country to hell in a handbasket? Other than being able to pat yourself on the back for your purity, of course.

Flummoxed, my ass. I'm a pragmatist, not a purist like you. How's the air up there?

Bake

[DancingBear]

89. You're no pragmatist - you're a dreamer

You look at candidates as a solution, but ignore the fact that the party is the problem.

If you remember, your strong candidate to come picked Joe Lieberman to pair up with.

We are ALL tired of losing elections, but we differ on why. You seem to think that the candidate matters - it doesn't. The party is as much a corporate entity as the other side. Do you think NAFTA was a Republican idea? Welfare "reform"? The windfall of money in the electoral process? Al Gore or Barack Obama or Joe Schmo is not going to get nominated unless they get on board with the program, and that program is (and always will be) keeping the coffers full and the vested interests happy.

C'mon man - the f#$ing Congress just put off debating the Iraq war for two weeks. What - haven't enough kids died yet? Where are all of our great leaders on this? Where is Obama screaming out loud that this should be priority one, and that it's a sham that this Congress does not have the guts to stand up for its citizenry? Hell, where is anyone??

Don't buy the "lesser evil" bullshit - we will never see a true progressive vision for this country if you do. We may not see it anyway, but at least I will try and do my part. When progressive Democrats show up, I'll vote for them. When they don't, I won't. That simple.

As for the air, once you rise above the smog of politics as usual it's actually quite clean...

[shadowknows69]

126. Bravo DB

:applause:

[Bake]

148. I congratulate you on both your ideological purity and your impotence.

You have no influence whatsoever on anything of consequence, in the larger scheme of things.

And you call ME a dreamer. Wow.

Just wow.

Bake

[Vickers]

69. How dramatic!!!

:eyes:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Yes, I'm sure you're very concerned.

:rofl:

[LSK]

78. DAMN THEM TO HELL FOR NOT GETTING 60 SENATE SEATS

DAMN THEM DAMN THEM DAMN THEM.

:sarcasm:

[RiverStone]

80. Surprised you'd leave after just 7 weeks in the Majority

I do share the collective frustration that DEM leadership, particularly as it pertains to the Iraq War disaster, have been timid and way too compromising to rethugs (minus Feingold, Kucinich, Boxer, Kennedy - few more).

Yet eagler, after all these years as the Minority party on the Hill, it seems if you were to have left, it would have been a long time ago; rather then now when finally (albeit slowly) DEMS are in a real position to dictate policy. :shrug:

We did push through some great stuff during the first 100 hours (min wage hike, reduce college loan interest etc.) and although the DEM leaders have been way to wimpy on the war for my taste---it has only been 7 weeks.

The DEMS have a much better chance of changing things then any third party does, like it or not.

I'm sticking with the DEMS and working to be part of the solution, if I left; I'd be walking away from that.

[ecstatic]

161. 7 weeks, 150+ troops have died, 1500+ Iraqis

I understand what you're saying completely. I've been patient all this time but there comes a point when it just becomes too damn little, too damn late.

Finally regaining power was a wonderful thing, but I think we see signs of it everywhere that some of us are just really tired and can't wait years and years for things to get fixed.

Some of us are getting turned off by the smug meetings that get nothing accomplished (especially in light of needing to repent for their IWR votes).

[jannyk]

81. You are not alone. Many of us have had it with

both parties. See this thread from yesterday;

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x304212

We critized and ridiculed (rightly so) the repugs for marching lockstep behind their party even though it was obvious to a dimwit that their interests were not being represented. I for one refuse to do the same as I have derided them for. The Dems have been given a mandate. Bush 'claimed' he had been given one, by as slim a majority, and used it to abusive excess. The Dems seem incapable of using their's at all. They are cowed and ineffectual.

It does not bode well for the 'swing' states in 2008, that voted Dems in only to see change - change they are not getting. Christ, I'm totally disgusted with them, so I can only imagine how I would feel if I was an independant, or god forbid, a repug that voted Dem this time, hoping for actual representation. Do our so called 'representatives' really live in such rarified air that they are totally out of touch with what we want them to do - and do NOW! Are they not aware that their jockeying for position, political point scoring and other 'games' with no resolution sickens us all?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

83. Don't Really Give A Rats Fat Ass What Ya Are. Just Make Sure You Vote Democratic In '08, That's All

[The Straight Story]

84. I have always been registered independent, even though I vote dem

I don't see the big deal on how one is registered really :shrug:

[NotGivingUp]

150. well, you can't vote in the primary if you're not a registered dem

[brentspeak]

85. You've gotten away for six years on DU pretending to be a Democrat

There's a tombstone that says, "He disrupted poorly"; in your case, I guess it should say, "He disrupted WELL".

So long, and don't let the d...

[Kelly Rupert]

90. Good riddance.

People who would abandon the party after seven weeks don't deserve to call themselves Democrats anyway.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Welcome to the fold

For me it was the bankrupcy bill and nothign that has been done so far has changed my view of things

[WinkyDink]

93. This isn't "Independent Underground".

[Kelly Rupert]

99. In case you hadn't noticed, this is a Democratic web board.

We're Democrats here.

[JackRiddler]

108. "WHO WE ARE" (DU INTRODUCTION)

"2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates."

In other words, this is not (only) an echo chamber for party-line talk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. Don't expect them to get it

and at the pace we are going, this place is starting to resemble that other one that should not be spoken about

By the way, I will support LOCAL dems that conform to what I think should be done... and remain hypercritical of the national organization

Yes Dean has taken good steps, but I am sure soem of these folks critize him as well for not being democratic enough

[WinkyDink]

92. And you felt the need to announce this on an anonymous board because?

Come back, Shane!
*sarcasm*

[bigtree]

104. yeah, that independent party is sure tearing up the congressional floor

:eyes:

frickin Lieberman's an independent. Get off of the fence and choose. Then work to make them work for you. This is a clear retreat. There is no independent party. It's a straddle.

[WI_DEM]

105. So why publicize it here?

[roamer65]

110. As long as you don't vote for right-wingers or neocons, I don't care what you call yourself.

But I think you will eventually realize that the best chance for change resides with our getting active in the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party is the party most open to change through average people becoming active, IHMO.

[BlooInBloo]

111. OOOOH!!! You sure showed us!

[ourbluenation]

112. WHERE ARE THE MODERATORS.

helllooooo?????

[JackRiddler]

122. Probably reading this

DU INTRO:

2. Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

[More Than A Feeling]

117. I respect your decision.

And I applaud you for exposing the knee-jerk contempt some people have for those who aren't bound by their prior choice of affiliation (seriously, people! Read the rules. Some states don't have registration by party. Are people who live in those states not allowed here because they aren't registered Dem?) The Democratic Party does not have an inherent right to anyone's allegiance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. And some states have open primaries

where I, for instance, CAN VOTE in the Dem or Republican primaries,

amazing, ain't it

oh and in my state only those two are open right now.

[huskerlaw]

118. And the Independents are?

If you want to join the "party" of Joe Lieberman, more power to ya, I guess.

But if you want people to make a change, you probably have more power if you stay IN the group than if you stand outside of it and complain.

[UTUSN]

119. Well, your inspired decision ought to "elect" wingnuts. Are you going to be happy??!!1 n/t

[Poll_Blind]

124. It's like "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street" every night of the week here. n/t

PB

[shadowknows69]

128. Best. Analogy. Ever

our whole fucking country has become that brilliant piece by Mr. Serling.

[PhilipShore]

129. I left the Democratic Party after Bush v. Gore

Went back to the Dems for a while, now I left again, and I am now registered as a no party voter.

The DLC simply has to much power, for me as a liberal, from the literature I read of other liberals; they said they joined the Dems because they were not much better then the Republicans, but at least were more tolerant.

But with the new Democrats (DLC) getting into power simply on a message of hating liberals, I came to the conclusion to leave, a party, that I am not welcome in.

I am just about to the point where I cannot even vote any longer. Even though I like Gore - even he does not represent the America, I want to be a part of.

[IChing]

132. “Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens.”

I too await to see where the corporate masters reflex and influence the democratic leadership.


I still work for the democratic party, but only because right now. it is my only empowerment that is available for a legitimate rationalization expression of my effort and political beliefs
without being marginalized too badly in this country.
I am a socialist like Einstein, not much room for my thoughts right?

The planet is a changing and they better catch up with the rest of "democratic" people on earth
or all hell will break lose for all human beings and that means for the rich and poor
if we don't peacefully participate in
the logically process that we must face together.



Jefferson: edited for his quotes
"The people are in truth the only legitimate proprietors of the soil and government."

"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and that, I am sure, is the ultimate and sincere object of us both. We both value too much the freedom of opinion sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even where in opposition to ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283


"In every country where man is free to think and to speak, differences of opinion will arise from difference of perception, and the imperfection of reason; but these differences when permitted, as in this happy country, to purify themselves by free discussion, are but as passing clouds overspreading our land transiently and leaving our horizon more bright and serene." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Waring, 1801. ME 10:235


link" http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0750.htm

[eridani]

134. Over the past 40 years, lots of people have done that

As a result, the pipeline to higher elected office has been filled with compromisers and cowards for that length of time. How's that been working out for us? :sarcasm: Don't like the people in the pipeline? Why not hang around to fill it up with more progressive people?

[Eurobabe]

137. The vitriol on this thread is freaking amazing

Democrats say they want a big tent, they want to welcome others with open arms -- that's not the feeling I am getting reading the nasty responses on this thread.

It's really eye-opening. Nice way to gain respect and allegiance of the independent voter.

[Greyhound]

142. But, but, it was all Nader's fault...

"You're either with us or against us"

Are we so stupid that we've learned nothing in the last 12 years?

[Eurobabe]

144. I never fucking voted for Nader, and I wouldn't

vote 3rd party. So don't assume that because I choose to remain an Independent that this is the case.

[Greyhound]

149. Sorry, I've got to remember the smileys, I was agreeing with you through sarcasm.

The attitude that you speak of is indeed prevalent and is really quite harmful to the Party. We are not the mindless automatons that make up a significant portion of the Re:puke: Party, and will not be dictated to by the intolerant bigots that say things like you pointed out in this thread.

Our Party was relegated to irrelevance from '94 to '06 because of the belief that all they have to be is "not as bad" as the Re:puke:s.

[Eurobabe]

172. No problem, it's just

that many people continually bash anyone who isn't a Dem by pedigree, and I am SICK of it. This is the major reason why I will NOT formally join the party.

I don't need the aggravation. :hi: Peace out -48

[Vidar]

138. Best of luck.

[WorldResident]

140. There's a big difference between voting against a Democrat and registering your party as Democratic

I could care less about the latter. If you want to vote in the Republican primaries to spoil it, more power to you. Just vote for the Democrat in the general election (unless he's just some local kook that you know of who's happening to run for county sheriff or something.)

I don't see why actual party registration is such a big deal.

[NMMNG]

141. Are we supposed to beg you to change your mind or something?

:shrug:

[B Calm]

143. That's what it looks like...

[NMMNG]

145. I can't say I'll be doing it

:shrug:

[NoPasaran]

146. From the Democratic Party to the Pity Party

:nopity:

[Bleacher Creature]

152. So you define an entire political party by a few selected leaders???

I'll be the first one to admit that some members of the leadership have been a bit timid and slow to act, but this is lame.

What about the THOUSANDS of rank and file elected Democrats in Congress and in the states who do us all proud?

What about the MILLIONS of unelected Democrats who are committed the the ideals of people like FDR, Harry Truman and JFK?

A political party is more than the sum of a few prominent people at a particular period of time. To abandon it based on your opinion of them is just plain petty.

[question everything]

154. Why all the recommendations? There are 59 million workers

without paid sick days; there are more than 45 million Americans with no health insurance; there are more Americans in poverty and many homeless people than we have had in the past six years.

Do people who applaud this comment, who, too, are not going to vote for Democrats - no matter how unpalatable they are, really think that any of this can be addressed by a Republican Congress and a White House and the courts?

You are selfish. You obviously are employed, with secure food and shelter. Many are not and while our Democratic representatives are beholden to Corporate America, they know that to differentiate themselves from their rivals they have to look at these problems.

Go and visit the Poverty Forum http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=230 and get a reality check.

[ecstatic]

162. Yes, and when the Dems actually do something about this

I will be very relieved. It's funny to see them move right away on Airline Passengers' Bill of Rights and what not while Iraq, minimum wage laws, etc. still hang in the balance.

It's not enough just to have my party of choice in power... I actually expect ACTION and to see the fruits of my and other Americans' votes coming to light. I will always be liberal but if the Democrats are not meeting at least some of my agenda then what's the point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. Hmm point of order

the House passed a minimum wage law

The Senate managed to

They are in conference right now

Care to tell me who exactly do you expect to veto it?

(Bush)

Care to tell me if EITHER house has a veto proof majority? (no)

Watching the Span is a good thing from time to time

Never the less, I am registed as an indie and will bring them down to the matt where needed... aka sent your pester
and feed congress critter bout impeachment THIS WEEK?

[kurth]

170. The perfect is enemy of the good

and good is always better than evil, aka the GOP.