The tiny, tiny violins are out...

[n2doc]

Poor, Poor Johna Goldberg. He's soooo offended by "darwin fish". If only some Christians would go out and blow up a few of those nasty unbelievers things would so much more fair....

JONAH GOLDBERG:
Evolution of religious bigotry

The cowardice and intolerance of slapping a Darwin fish on your car bumper.
April 1, 2008

<snip>

I find Darwin fish offensive. First, there's the smugness. The undeniable message: Those Jesus fish people are less evolved, less sophisticated than we Darwin fishers.

The hypocrisy is even more glaring. Darwin fish are often stuck next to bumper stickers promoting tolerance or admonishing random motorists that "hate is not a family value." But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims.

As Christopher Caldwell once observed in the Weekly Standard, Darwin fish flout the agreed-on etiquette of identity politics. "Namely: It's acceptable to assert identity and abhorrent to attack it. A plaque with 'Shalom' written inside a Star of David would hardly attract notice; a plaque with 'Usury' written inside the same symbol would be an outrage."

But the most annoying aspect of the Darwin fish is the false bravado it represents. It's a courageous pose without consequence. Like so much other Christian-baiting in American popular culture, sporting your Darwin fish is a way to speak truth to power on the cheap.

Whatever the faults of "Fitna," it ain't no Darwin fish.

Geert Wilders' film could very, very easily get him killed. (He's already guarded around the clock.) It essentially picks up the work of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 by a jihadi for criticizing Islam.


more puke inducing drivel at the link...
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-goldberg1apr01,0,5893988.column

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. I bow my head.

anyone who can read through any of his nonsense and even post about it, WOW. I admire your cast iron intestines.

[GoneOffShore]

2. Thanks but I'm not going to give him a hit.

[ColbertWatcher]

3. The LAT fired Scheer for this guy.

He's a tool.

I don't even read past the headlines, he is that worthless.

[coalition_unwilling]

45. Cancelled my sub with the LA Times when they did it. LA Times

daily paid subscriptions now well below 1,000,000 and continuing to decline.

[ColbertWatcher]

77. Good. Maybe they will get their crap together...

...before no one will pay for their GOP-leaning rag.

[angstlessk]

118. You are shitting me...I knew the fired Sheer but to hire this brute??

I never subscribed but now I will not even click on the damn thing..if I don't get enouhg from the poster..oh well

[HughMoran]

4. He's taking advantage of April Fools day

If he gets called on it, he'll just state that it was an April Fools joke!

[HCE SuiGeneris]

5. If I only knew it pissed them off so much, I would have slapped a Darwin fish on much sooner nt

[Lex]

6. Why isn't he in Iraq anyway? Maybe he'd have more important

stuff on his mind if he were.

"a courageous pose without consequence" indeed

[PA Democrat]

16. Excellent point. Supporting an immoral war in words only is indeed "a courageous

pose without consequence."

[cliffordu]

7. Can I tell Jonah Goldberg to kiss my ass on this forum???

[Buzz Clik]

11. No, that would be inappropriate...

... because it would be much too soft. A hearty, "Go fuck yourself, Noah" would be more suiting.

Please!

[cliffordu]

15. Sorry - I was tired and I misspoke.

:rofl:

[Buzz Clik]

21. wink wink nudge nudge

:evilgrin:

[butterfly77]

84. Where is his fatass mommy...

why haven't we seen her somewhere on the media bragging about her asshole of a president?

[Bicoastal]

8. A fish with the word "DARWIN" = a Jewish star with the word "USURY"?!

Stupid, stupid STUPID!! :banghead:

Another fucking "We owe it to our Christian brothers and sisters to stand against the Muslim hordes" Neo-Con turncoat. Fucking guy makes me ashamed to be Jewish.

Next, he's gonna tell us he's offended by the Gefilte Fish.

[Buzz Clik]

9. Jesu Cristo. Do us a favor and don't pollute this place with Goldberg's incredible ignorance.

Is there anyone less informed with worse ability for expression than him?

[KG]

10. those poor, oppresed xtians. how do they stand it?

[PA Democrat]

12. WOW! Talk about manufactured outrage.

I find whining little Republican momma's boy wannabes offensive. Someone needs to get a REAL f'ing problem. People who put a Darwin fish on their car shouldn't be permitted to do that because Jonah thinks they should be attacking Muslims instead? I can't even follow the twisted meandering course of his moronic thought process.

[Buzz Clik]

23. How does he feel about the emblem of the bigger fish (with crucifix) eating the Darwin fish?

Has he seen those? I thought it was a great symbolic reply. (Of course, it's bullshit -- but at least they're fighting fire with fire.)

[Lionel Mandrake]

66. Or the Darwin Fish humping the Jesus Fish?

[callous taoboy]

68. see my post downstream..... What makes a little throw up enter my throat

is the x-tian fish surrounded by little x-tian fishes.

[Perry Logan]

13. This from people who use an instrument of torture as their central symbol.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. your lack of understanding is astounding..

[conscious evolution]

49. Don't forget the ritual cannibalism.

[Mountainman]

14. The reason Darwin fish appeared is because Xian fish were annoying.

Isn't it smugness to have Xian fish on your car, your yellow pages ad, your store sign? So touche with the Darwin fish.

The right always takes their offensiveness and turns them around 180.

[RoadRage]

17. Thanks.. i've been meaning to buy a Darwin Fish for my new Honda..

This was a great reminder to get that done this weekend. It will probably piss off my inlaws as much as it pisses off this guy.. so that makes it worth the $5 right there!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

18. The author has a point

"But the whole point of the Darwin fish is intolerance; similar mockery of a cherished symbol would rightly be condemned as bigoted if aimed at blacks or women or, yes, Muslims."

People who think the Darwin Fish is the hight of humor would are *mortified* when a soldier desecrates a Qur'an or think Jimmy Kimmel and Ben Afflec were disgustingly over the top in their 'Gay' skit... The same people who think a Crucifix in a jar of Urine is art are disgusted by billboards objectifying women.. Face it folks sometimes you can have a double standard and not see it.

All that being said I don't think American Christians can complain about persecution; I love a skit I heard on the Radio 'fox's book of American martyrs' which had people crying because of the Darwin Fish, or people giving them dirty looks'... It really nailed this false sense of persecution many Christians have when people in other parts of the world are killed for their faith (Christian and other)

[endarkenment]

22. How does Darwin desecrate Christiantiy?

Please explain.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

31. Wow my friend in parts of the world making these two post

within a few minutes of each other is called Chutzpah

"The message is that we intelligent people are in fact likely more evolved than the idiots who believe in creationism."

And two minutes later you post:

"How does Darwin desecrate Christiantiy?"

--

Societies of Christians in Hellenistic Greece and Roman Greece, prior to the Edict of Milan, protected their congregations by keeping their meetings secret. In order to point the way to ever-changing meeting places, they developed a symbol which adherents would readily recognize, and which they could scratch on rocks, walls and the like, in advance of a meeting. At the time, a similar symbol was used by Greeks to mark the location of a funeral, so using the ichthys also gave an apparent legitimate reason for Christians to gather

--

"The darwin fish could also mean 'I am a Christian who believes that the Theory of Evolution is valid' as those are not contradictory beliefs, a fact that has escaped the nepotism-enabled 'pundit' Goldberg."

I know many, many Christians from many different walks and none of them use the symbol in this way, including those who believe evolution, this symbol is used to mock the faith of others and this claim that some Christians may x.y.z is the equivalent of a white performer in blackface saying... but I have balck friends its a pathetic and transparent attempt to excuse intolerance..

[endarkenment]

33. So how exactly does Darwin desecrate Christianity?

You have yet to explain how putting the word darwin inside the picture of a fish desecrates christianity. Instead you have simply asserted once again that 'it is so'.

"The message is that we intelligent people are in fact likely more evolved than the idiots who believe in creationism."

And again: creationists are indeed christians, but not all christians are creationists. For example, the Catholic Church has made it quite clear that they embrace the theory of evolution. Had Mr. Goldberg and yourself insisted that the darwin fish is an insult to creationist idiots, I would agree entirely. But neither you nor he have made that point.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

38. Dupe Deleted

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

39. How do sexy bilborads desecrate women

How does a Toilet and the Qur'an desiccate Islam
How did Ben Afflec and Jimmy Kimmel desecrate Homosexuality

You completely missed the point of my OP, which you would have to be *purposefully obtuse* to do!

1) The same people who Mock Christians are often mortified when other groups are mocked

2) The Intention of the Darwin fish is to mock christians by taking the first book of the Bible and calling it Bull.. On this very thread we have seen people say 'cool it offends them Im going to go get one'

--

-Had Mr. Goldberg and yourself insisted that the darwin fish is an insult to creationist idiots, I would agree entirely. But neither you nor he have made that point.-

"In 1983, two friends involved in the southern California atheist and freethought movements, Al Seckel and John Edwards, co-created the Darwin fish design, which was first used on a freethought leaflet for Atheists United in 1984." -- No Christians dont use this symbol to say Im a Christian but I believe in Evolution

--

I even went so far in the OP to say 'Christians really cant claim persecution in this nation *to make it abundantly clear* that I dont equate this slap in the face with an actual hardship. My post was clearly meant to look at the attitude that its ok to spit in some groups eyes for laughs but not others... You seem to have selective a reading ability which mere mortal could only marvel at..

[endarkenment]

41. Darwin Fish mocks Creationists

And you insult intelligent Christians by conflating the two.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

43. The darwin fish is based on a *Christian Symbol*

And you insult people who are intellectually honest by trying to ignore that fact..

The creators of the symbol and *everyone I know who has used it* are Atheist... Still; ignore the roots, the use, and the heart behind it just trudge ahead with *your* tiny little violin..

[endarkenment]

53. yes it is.

So how exactly does overlaying darwin on top of a symbol for christ desecrate that symbol?

I keep asking and you keep telling me 'it is so'. As I have stated several times belief in the theory of evolution and belief in christianity are not contradictory. The darwin fish is insulting to creationist idiots.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

55. Its offensive to pretty much all Christians

Just like while some gays might have found the Afllek Kimmel skit funny it offended enough people that there was a shit storm here...

Lets assume, despite your gaping lack of anything to back it up, that there is a community of Christians out there who think the darwin fish its hi-larious and is not what its creator intended a; mockery of a Christian symbol meant only to get attention for themselves by belittling the faith of others... Lets assume 80% of Christians (and I'm being really generous to you there its going to be far higher than that) are offended that a symbol they had to use to meet in secret is being used to attack their beliefs is that not enough for us to say 'maybe we should not strive to offend this group if we ourselves are offended'.

Even active catholics who believe in evolution ( I know quite a few) dont like the symbols of their faith being crapped on for ha-ha points..

I say to you again that symbol bears the history of persecution of Christians and their eventual success in overcoming such persecution, they made this symbol their own. The pink triangle used by so many homosexual groups is no different so Im sure you would be ok if people twisted that some way to insult gays right? And you would see people joking about how they 'cant wait' to go get it to hurt and annoy the gays as being no more morally dubious than the folks who love the darwin fish..

Its not your symbol, its that of Christian Churches! Its like native American Mascots which are mere characters and *hurt* native american people. I guess if I can find a subset (even a tiny one) of Native Americans who could care less then that debate is over right..

--

This is all about you being ok with crapping on other people, you and others here who are so smugly better than those judgmental Neanderthals on the far right except of course when you want to judge someone you're clearly better than on the basis of *one* deeply held belief.. They are jut idiots and obviously less evolved than you...

The rank hypocrisy you display is enough to choke any clear thinking person..

[endarkenment]

59. Really? So you've polled almost all the christians? A random sample?

Or are you speaker for Christians? Or are you just taking that loathsome rightwing troll's word for it?

And I have already agreed that it is deeply offensive, as intended, to creationist idiots, whom you continue to conflate with intelligent christians, which I find deeply offensive.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

61. Says the man who

magically pulls 'intelligent Christians by conflating the two.' thus inserting the belief that a substantial number of Christians who believe in evolution think this is fine and dandy. Where are you materializing these people from?

I have extensive experience with Christians of every stripe from barely active but strongly cultural Sunday catholics, to evangelical Calvinist, to emergent church folks, to Wesleyan Holy rollers. And I have never some across any of them who are serious about their beliefs who think that mocking a symbol nearly as old as the church itself is funny.. (even the old earth evolutionist in my family)

Like I said, and you continue to provide ample evidence, your bigotry in assuming someone with different beliefs is less intelligent than you and your continued monumental obtuseness and evasiveness in answering my whole post jut so you get a change to call the afore mentioned people 'idiots' shows there is little if any chance you speak from a position worth respecting.

[endarkenment]

65. So you are speaker for christians. Interesting.

WTF is a holly roller? Are they some sort of christmas club?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

69. Im more suited to speck for them than you...

holly (as you may have guessed is a typo): It should be Holy Roller and typically in Christian circles it refers to the 'no coffee, alcohol, dancing, movies, ....'.. Usually Wesleyan or Nazarene churches fall into this box. All Pentecostal churches used to fall in this bucket but many have become either more reformed or more liberal over the years..

[JuniperLea]

100. Hmmm...

My Christian Missionary cousin doesn't find anything offensive. She walks the talk... she wouldn't tell someone they offended her, ever. She would "let her life be a witness" and show that she knew what Jesus meant by "Whatsoever you do for the lesser of these my brethren, you do for me." If you give them chastisement, you give the same to Jesus... if you tell them how horribly offensive they are, you do the same for Jesus. There is nothing loving in telling another human being they offend you.

Whatever happened to turning the other cheek?

:eyes:

[PA Democrat]

74. I don't find the Darwin fish offensive and I consider myself to be a Christian.

I believe in God and I believe in evolution. In fact in my 8 years at Catholic school, I was taught evolution in my science classes.

I always thought the Darwin fish was in response to the push to have creationism taught in lieu of science in the public schools which I adamantly oppose. I never took it as belittling my faith. I actually am puzzled by the display of the fish on people's car bumpers, but then I've always been more private about my personal beliefs.

In my community there is a big push to require teaching of creationism in biology and science class, and teachers have been required to read a statement which said that evolution was only a theory and had not been proven and that creationism was another theory and was basically given equal weight. I don't think that religious beliefs should be taught in public schools, most especially as a substitute for science and using taxpayers' money. Personally, I could understand someone putting a Darwin fish on their car after dealing with the folks who want to use public schools to impose their personal religious beliefs.

[Flying Dream Blues]

91. Hear, hear!

"I don't think that religious beliefs should be taught in public schools, most especially as a substitute for science and using taxpayers' money. Personally, I could understand someone putting a Darwin fish on their car after dealing with the folks who want to use public schools to impose their personal religious beliefs."

The whole Christian fish thing has gone beyond being a shout-out to other Christians. It has become a symbol for the movement to impose Christian beliefs upon our schools, government and legislation. To me it is the height of hypocrisy for those who are trying (quite successfully) to oppress others to pretend to be oppressed. In fact, it makes me sick!

Jesus and his teachings are not the same thing as Christianity as it has become. I think He is quite disappointed in and quite ashamed at MANY of the things that have been done in His name.

[JuniperLea]

101. Hear hear!

I think people decide to be offended and then can't help themselves.

I think Jesus would tell them to take a chill pill:)

[DainBramaged]

114. I'm a Christian and it doesn't piss me off

As a matter of fact, I don't think it maters one bit to Jesus, he's a bit busy lately with all of the new souls the Fundies are sending up to meet him.

And just for your self-aggrandizing rant about the rest of us Christians, I'm getting a Darwin fish, because SYMBOLISM doesn't mean squat, just like wearing a flag pin to prove you too are a patriot.

[LanternWaste]

83. I imagine in much the same way that overlaying a stencil

"So how exactly does overlaying darwin on top of a symbol for christ desecrate that symbol?"

I imagine in much the same way that overlaying a stencil of blood splat and bullet holes over the Rainbow Flag would (seen on a VW Rabbit in North Texas last month). Some could/would argue that in both cases, it is (at best) minimizing the fundamental symbol by overlaying another, more visceral symbol of intent.

(And having just read about 14 definitions of the word 'desecrate', it does appear to be a valid use in our context...)

[endarkenment]

90. And again, only if you view these ideas as opposing each other.

The theory of evolution is not antithetical to christian beliefs. Equating it with bullet holes overlayed on the rainbow flag is nonsense. Darwin's theory does not do violence to christianity. It is in fact compatible with christian beliefs. The theory negates creationist idiocy.

[GoneOffShore]

112. You're trying to argue with a member of the

Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Outrage.
Good luck with that.

:rofl:

[Uncle Joe]

56. I believe Jesus's teachings actually are actually represented by Darwin's theory

of evolution. Jesus's way of thinking was a radical evolution in and of it self, in those days you didn't forgive your enemies, you killed them, usually by very brutal means. Jesus would ask God to forgive his executioners as he was dying. Of course this evolution within the human species to this day hasn't entirely taken hold. Cheney/Bush are a throwback to the days of emperor; with no accountability and the promotion of torture. The Quakers are one of the most recent examples of Jesus's evolutionary teachings taking hold, when they were able to forgive the murderer of their children, how many others out there could do the same?

I believe when Jesus told Peter to put aside his net, to follow him and he would make Peter a fisher of men, this is what he was speaking to. Jesus saw everyone as being one organism, do undo others as you would have them do unto you, because we're literally connected.

I believe if humanity is to survive to the next stage of evolution, this concept of oneness must take hold. Because the "either you're with us or you're against us" mentality will inevitably lead to the extinction of life as we know it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

58. This is a huge stretch..

Evolution is a biological process to try to ascribe it to sociological development is a sin many Europeans committed when they decided their society was better than someone else's and while they may have let some people live they decided in the interest of social progress to perform a cultural genocide.

[Uncle Joe]

63. I believe Societies evolve as well, where there is a micro, there is a macro.

During the Civil War both sides carried the Bible in to battle believing they were fighting the righteous fight.

The Catholics have massacred the Protestants, the Protestants have massacred the Catholics, these were sociological evolutionary processes as well.

Evolution doesn't move in a straight line from inferior to superior, but rather in fits and starts toward truth and success or falsity and extinction. There are many dead branches on the tree of evolution.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

71. All I am saying is you are using Evolotion in a sense

That Darwin never intended it to be used, he studied and documented a biological process. Evil men have taken that and used it for eugenics and cultural genocide... Now some have decided to use it the same way but they 'mean well' you know what they say about the road to hell...

BTW: Christ never sinned that meant he kept *all* old testament law a law which he came to fulfill not abolish.. (by his own words)

[Uncle Joe]

75. I believe Christ

was the next sociological evolutionary step from the day of Moses and the Ten Commandments. Virtually everything in the Ten Commandments was what thou shall not do, Jesus took it a huge step farther and said what we should do. He took it from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law.

No doubt my take on evolution is an evolutionary step from the days of Darwin but it seems totally logical to me. If an individual organism evolves and is successful, how can that not affect the larger society of which it is a part of? The same holds true if evil, madness or falsity takes hold, which will eventually tear down the society just as it did during the days of Hitler.

I know all about the road to hell, ever since the corporate media "bore false witness" against Al Gore without regard, thus enabling the current usurpers to power, I believe our nation has paid a heavy price ever since. I also believe this is a sociological evolutionary step which is very dangerous to our democratic republic, our nation and possibly life as we know it's existence.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

78. If you think somehow the law of Christ is

*less* restrictive than OT law youve clearly never read both testaments..

[Uncle Joe]

94. It absolutely is less restrictive

there is but one central requirement; to accept Jesus Christ as your saviour and the son of God and you're saved. A thief was saved as he died on the cross with Christ, because he accepted Jesus and his lack of sin.

I believe today, this is why so much current doctrine is focused on Old Testament as opposed to New, government and business; the same type business that Christ in his most violent act threw out of the Temple are geared toward restriction and control for the sake of power.

Your post makes my point as to my earlier post regarding reading Testaments as well, and the danger of black and white thinking, people interpret the bible in different ways or they pretend to for their own agenda. I'm no different and neither are you.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

111. Im sorry but you are way off

Jesus takes the law of the OT which was all about actions and said it applies to actions *and* thoughts... He set the bar higher. Where the OT made provisions for mens sinfuil nature within the law Christ said 'Thats not enough'

Here is one example:

OT Law:

"When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife" (Deut. 24:1-2).

Jesus Said

“Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 “And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Here is another

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment."


"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

--

What Christ accomplished was fulfiling the law (and the greek word used in the NT is used to mean *the make better or fuller*. He said specifically he did not come to abolish the old laws and held to them better than any human being could.

His sacrifice on the Cross extended grace to men but men have to take him as their lord for that grace that. Jesus is not a license to sin he is grace for those who hate their sin..

[Uncle Joe]

123. This last post of yours seems to verify my first.

I view Jesus as the ultimate teacher of the golden rule. However I don't view that as more restrictive as opposed to liberating from the yoke of the OT. I also don't believe Jesus gives license to sin but if given a way out of such emotional bondage, is that not freedom?

As I more or less stated in another post, I view Jesus as fulfilling the spirit of the law and the OT setting up the letter of the law.

Regardless of whether you agree with me that Jesus was more freedom or you believe he was more restrictive, in either case he was at the very least a sociological evolutionary change from the past.

From my first post.

"Jesus's teachings actually are actually represented by Darwin's theory
of evolution. Jesus's way of thinking was a radical evolution in and of it self, in those days you didn't forgive your enemies, you killed them, usually by very brutal means. Jesus would ask God to forgive his executioners as he was dying. Of course this evolution within the human species to this day hasn't entirely taken hold. Cheney/Bush are a throwback to the days of emperor; with no accountability and the promotion of torture. The Quakers are one of the most recent examples of Jesus's evolutionary teachings taking hold, when they were able to forgive the murderer of their children, how many others out there could do the same?

I believe when Jesus told Peter to put aside his net, to follow him and he would make Peter a fisher of men, this is what he was speaking to. Jesus saw everyone as being one organism, do undo others as you would have them do unto you, because we're literally connected.

I believe if humanity is to survive to the next stage of evolution, this concept of oneness must take hold. Because the "either you're with us or you're against us" mentality will inevitably lead to the extinction of life as we know it."

[Hekate]

97. "Evil men have taken that..." You mean like the evil Inquistors torturing in the name of Christ?...

I don't hold the evil that men have done to others in the name of Christ against the teachings of Jesus, by the way. But the land from Europe to Asia is soaked in the blood of those who dared to disagree with the fine points of theology, and that's not exactly a good recommendation.

For a lot of my life I was a Christian, and I also believed in Science and Reason, and really I think that there is no reason not to hold both Mystery and Science in one's mind and heart. Theology and Science are two separate branches of study, but they are not mutually exclusive.

Hekate

[immoderate]

106. The word evolution predates Darwin by at least 200 years.

Even the concept of evolution in biology predated Darwin. He was the first to figure out how it works. His theory is properly called "The Theory of Evolution Through Natural Selection."

Evolution is applied to language, society, machinery and a whole lot of other things that evolve.

--IMM

[kineneb]

85. if the "faithful" cannot take some humor, their faith is pretty weak.

Laugh at Buddha all you want. He (and we) will laugh with you.

The problem is with those without a sense of humor about themselves and the world. They need a larger vision.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

116. If you think that

I have no issue, as I said in the beginning its about people who would take offense at other instance (not just religious but maybe cultural). If you dont get pissed about Gay jokes, for example, then my post was not addressed at you..

[Buzz Clik]

25. Um, no. Your broad brush has no paint.

People who think the Darwin Fish is the hight of humor would are *mortified* when a soldier desecrates a Qur'an or think Jimmy Kimmel and Ben Afflec were disgustingly over the top in their 'Gay' skit... The same people who think a Crucifix in a jar of Urine is art are disgusted by billboards objectifying women.. Face it folks sometimes you can have a double standard and not see it.

Some of the same people perhaps, but not all.

In my tiny brain, everything is fair game. I make fun of you and the things you hold dear, and you respond in kind.

And, please, there are degrees to this. Putting a fish with Darwin inside on a car is hardly equivalent to putting a crucifix (complete with little man) in a jar of urine. And keep in mind that the crucifix in Piss Christ is a symbol, not the actual cross & Jesus. Urinating on a Qu'ran or Bible is a totally different story.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

32. Im sorry I have a running disclaimer

There will always be exceptions... (I also used the qualifier 'sometimes' but looking back I was not clear on that, apologies)

In this case the number of people who use this in any other way but to poke the eye of Christians and would not otherwise be mortified by anyone purposefully going out of their way to offend another group is very, very small..

"And, please, there are degrees to this. Putting a fish with Darwin inside on a car is hardly equivalent to putting a crucifix (complete with little man) in a jar of urine."

Some see it that way, others consider the crucifix in urine art... and BTW I don't like it when some churches leave the 'little man' on the cross but that a theological point for another discussion ;)

"Urinating on a Qu'ran or Bible is a totally different story."

Why? Why is this 'totally' different? A bible and Qu'ran are just paper and ink dont get me wrong I treat my bible with the utmost respect but I know people who write in theirs.. why is the symbol of the cross less substantial than Bible?

--

BTW thanks for the thoughtful reply like I said there are always exceptions and you seem to be one of them..

[Buzz Clik]

35. I'll leave the other points to "we disagree only slightly", but one of your points...

"Urinating on a Qu'ran or Bible is a totally different story."

Why? Why is this 'totally' different? A bible and Qu'ran are just paper and ink dont get me wrong I treat my bible with the utmost respect but I know people who write in theirs.. why is the symbol of the cross less substantial than Bible?

You misunderstand. Urinating on a "holy book" is hideous, whether it's the Qu'ran, Bible, or any other. That was my point -- I was not saying it's okay to pee on one and not the other.

As for the cross: in Piss Christ, I see that cross as no different than a flag or a shamrock or a replica of Stonehenge. They're just replicas, not the real deal. I can see how some could take offense, but they really are not the same as a Bible or Qu'ran.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

42. Im having a bad day

"You misunderstand. Urinating on a "holy book" is hideous, whether it's the Qu'ran, Bible, or any other. That was my point -- I was not saying it's okay to pee on one and not the other."

Never meant to imply you did I just picked the once closer to my heart..

But The Cross is as much a replica as a Bible which is the translated text of the original docs

[Buzz Clik]

44. I truly understand how you feel, both on that issue and on the others you pointed out.

I very much agree that some here at DU are delighted to put Christianity in as bad a light as possible under all circumstances. I've heard it called "evangelical atheism". :evilgrin:

[yardwork]

29. "Piss Christ" is actually a very beautiful photograph.

If one didn't read the title of the photograph, one would never guess that the golden liquid enveloping the Christ figure is urine. It's a complex photograph. It wasn't intended to be a desecration. It was intended to make people think, jolt them out of their complacency.

[Hekate]

96. Actually, I found it offensive as hell, and I'm not a Christian. I think Mapplethorpe intended that.

[dpibel]

110. Then again, it wasn't a Mapplethorpe photo

But who's counting?

[Hekate]

117. Ahhh. It seemed so much like him. I stand corrected. nt

[Ordr]

37. As always, you are dead-on.

[hootinholler]

50. I had that thought too, but then I realized that the darwin fish isn't anti Christian

It's anti Creationism being rammed down my kids brains.

In short: THEY STARTED IT.

-Hoot

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

51. huh?

That symbol exist because Christians in Greece had to meet in secret!

I'm only slightly annoyed when I see those symbols more by the smugness of the average person dying to have one on their car than by any substantial slap in the face. But the duplicitous nature of people here crying about every little insult to $group while taking glee in twisting symbols of faith of others to be an insult is thick enough that it could actually sustain a human adult in lieu of real food..

[hootinholler]

67. My point was that the symbol of faith wasn't twisted until the whacko fundies

Not the vast majority of Christians, started pushing Intelligent Design into the school systems.

-Hoot

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

72. Two points

1) ID was in the US school system before evolution so the move to keep/strengthen it there is counter reactionary (for better or worse). I frankly don't give a damn what they teach in science class. I was taught evolution and it did not damage my faith. If my kids are taught evolution in the school its not the end of the world..

2) So your point twisting a symbol that many Christians find important to their Church is ok to 'get' the small minority you classify as whacko's? Thats pretty screwed up..

[hootinholler]

76. LOL

1) Bullshit, unless you mean like 1910 or something, maybe even the mid-'50s with the Scopes trial, but it was't called ID. ID was coined recently after the courts ruled that Creationism was teaching religion as science. Many Christians accept evolution as good science, I'll even wager the vast majority do, especially if we exclude all that watch the 700 club seriously.

2) Yep! Fair is Fair. Eostre Eggs, Yuletide tree decorations, the 'Satanification" of Pagan symbology, etc. Please give me a coherent reason that the major holy dates in Christianity align with Pagan holidays? The only explanation is that it was used as a tool to subvert Paganism.

Oh, in case you haven't noticed, the fundies have cultivated an image of Christianity that is now ubiquitous. I'm not the only one who think Fundies are whackos.

-Hoot

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

80. So ID was renamed that means it was not there?

1) I dont care what they teach in hs science class regarding evolution so I will stick to point two

2) Wow Ive never had that pointed out to me, really youve revealed something new, how insightful...

Come on you mean X-mas in terms of Christ actual birth is not in December? dud *everyone knows this* and the symbolism is there so Christianity would be better accepted by Pegans *not* to tear them down. The Christmas tree was not a way to 'stick it to the pagans ha ha ha'

BTW Easter which is the *holiest christian date* is not lined up with a pegan holiday its lined up with passover.

BTW weather or not they are wackos alot of people see that symbol as of their faith and when you purposefully use it to 'stick it to them' youre acting in a really screed up manner...

[hootinholler]

82. ROFLMAO

1) I do care that science is taught as science and that religion is taught as religion. I care deeply that the two are not conflated in any classroom.

2) One man's better acceptance is anothers subversion.

BTW thanks for reminding me to boil up and decorate some passover eggs! I hadn't realized that Passover was a fertility celebration. Oh, I wonder where the name Easter came from? Maybe there was some Pagan fertility goddess with a very similar name? Maybe there was more than one?

The early church cared little for much else than expansion by conversion and used every trick to accomplish that. This doctrine of dominionism is still evident today. In fact it's gaining momentum as the followers of Rushdooney mature and buy into that perversion of the love that Christ taught.

-Hoot

[JuniperLea]

103. Pssst... Pagan fertility Goddess that sounds like Easter?

Ishtar, perhaps? ;)

She is called by many names in many cultures, but the old Goddesses are very much the same... She is called Inanna in ancient Mesopotamia... Most of these far out date Jesus.

[JuniperLea]

102. The hell it isn't...

Spring Equinox celebrations... Ishtar... Inanna... Goddesses... Google is your friend:)

It actually aligns more often with the Pagan ritual days of Spring than it does with Passover;) Look it up.

[MadHound]

73. "Twisting symbols of faith of others"

I really have to laugh at the irony of that, considering that Christianity has, over the millennia, taking the symbols and theology of all sorts of faiths and not only twisted them to be insults, but actually incorporated them into the Christian faith itself.

Sorry, but the outrage over this is misplaced, foolish, and rather self serving. Sorry, but Christianity has neither the moral nor historical standing to decide which symbols are acceptable.

[JuniperLea]

104. Christianity is so bastardized...

There's no way to tell what the real deal is unless you read and fully understand ancient Hebrew... my cousin and her daughter teach it, and they are pretty darn good little truth seekers... and nothing offends them either. They are actually currently living in Israel. Pretty interesting. Their whole deal is holding the light to dogma and truth. In today's Christianity, Dogma is King!

Jesus would never criticise a sinner. He would love them. He loves us all unconditionally, right?

[endarkenment]

52. no shit.

[spoony]

79. Nice post.

Though I'm not offended by the Darwin fishes, I find them tacky and juvenile at best. That radio skit sounds funny, btw!

[endarkenment]

20. The message is that we intelligent people

are in fact likely more evolved than the idiots who believe in creationism. Or at least one would hope so if one also has hope for humanity.

Goldberg, on the record as confused about the difference between nazis and liberals, is equally confused about the distinction between creationists and christians. The darwin fish could also mean 'I am a Christian who believes that the Theory of Evolution is valid' as those are not contradictory beliefs, a fact that has escaped the nepotism-enabled 'pundit' Goldberg.

[Kitty Herder]

24. Back when I was a Christian (well, Mormon, but close enough), I always wanted to put both a Darwin

fish and a Jesus fish on my car to show that I believed in evolution and the Bible. Never had the guts to do it. Mormon neighbors are very judgemental. Now I wish I had. The neighbors hate me anyway because I left their religion and that feels like a threat to them.

I can't believe the hypocrisy of this article! As if the Jesus fish people aren't feeling all smug and superior because they know the "truth" and are "saved." And I'm sure I don't even have to mention all the other Xtian bumper stickers that are far more offensive. Like this one:

:puke: That one bugs the hell out of me. (Aren't I punny? I'm here all week. )

What a load of crap. Why are Christians more entitled to express their beliefs on their bumpers than anyone else?

[Buzz Clik]

27. That would be so cool! How about JC as your hood ornament?

Damn! You'd feel invincible.

[Kitty Herder]

36. LOL! I think the neighbors would literally ride me out of town on a rail for such blasphemy.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

47. If Indeed you were a christian there are better reasons

To *not* do such a thing than getting run out of town..

1 Cor 8:1-10 kinda says if you feel you are somehow more knowledgeable or wise than other Christians you should not put yourself above them but bear with them as Brothers and Sisters in Christ..

And its not the right to express one that is at issue here, its completely intellectually dishonest to propose thats whats going on. Its about mocking others beliefs and why some here think its ok to do it for some groups and not others..

[yardwork]

26. He's just now noticing the Darwin fish? I thought they'd been around for decades.

This is just bizarre. Is he recycling a rant he wrote in the second grade?

[sinkingfeeling]

28. Even if the Darwin fish were the symbol of 'smugness', why is that any different than the

'christian' fish? They're the ones who started putting their symbol on their cars and on their ads and store windows. How offensive was that to those who are not members of their 'club'? I will proudly display my Darwin fish.

[blondeatlast]

30. He's just pissed that the Bimmer Lucianne gave him for his Sweet Sixteen was used--

he thought he was getting a new Bimm but the unfaded paint in the shape of the legged fish ruined his life but good.
Now, thinking people of all beliefs or lack thereof suffer his teenage shame and angst...

[spanone]

34. i find anything that offends jonah more than amusing

[MisterP]

40. why's he bringing up the Benelux's favorite goose-stepper? is he high? n/t

[damntexdem]

46. Hmm, I'll obviously have to change the Darwin fish display on my car.

Accompany it with one of those Darwin-fish-eating-Jesus-fish stick-ons.

[Greyskye]

48. Does that mean that this one is a no-no?

:shrug:
I wanted to have something like this one made for years, but never got around to it:


This page has more fish variations then you could shake a smug Darwin fish at: http://www.inklingmagazine.com/articles/intelligent-design-your-own-darwin-fish/

[Feron]

54. Eh it's just another anti-Islamic piece.

Religion, whether it be Islam, Christianity or the FSM, deserves no special protective status nor does it need to be in government.

If your religion is so weak that it cannot tolerate criticism or mockery, then that says a lot about the fallacy of that particular religion than it does of the critics. Fanatical Muslims are a problem in Europe, but fortunately they aren't a problem here. And thank goodness because fighting the fundie Christians here is enough.

And saying that a Darwin fish is akin to an usury Jewish star is stretching it so far that the rubber band has long been broken. I own an Ozzy Osbourne album and there is an upside down cross on the cover. Certainly that is offensive to Christians, but you would really be stretching it to call it hate speech.

And considering that many Christians believe in evolution, it's a non-starter controversy.

As for Fitna, it's a propaganda film. Wilders seems to have done it solely to attract attention to himself. And I'm certainly not pissing in my pants over Islam. The murderous, backwards, ignorant and censoring aspects we see loudly with Muslims are not unique to that religion alone. Any religion if given power acts in the same way. And that's not an excuse for Islam ,but rather a wake up call to keep all religion out of power.

If you want to practice your religion without bothering anyone that's fine by me. The rub comes when fundies of any stripe try to force their religion onto others and censor anything disparaging or critical. The Darwin fish wouldn't be on cars if it weren't for creationist fundie evangelical Christians trying to legislate a special place for their faith.

This Goldberg piece, like all others, was written while high on Cheetos dust.

[slackmaster]

57. Here's the one I have on my SUV

[CaliforniaPeggy]

60. GMTA!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x7620068

:hi:

[JanMichael]

62. How many words does it take this guy to say "I don't

have a sense of humor."

[callous taoboy]

64. I've always wanted to take the x-tian fish eating the Darwin fish to the next level

by having a giant barefoot "Monty Python" foot coming down about to smush it.

[chixydix]

70. I see right now my -one- Darwin fish needs a companion. One isn't enough.

:D

[varkam]

81. My message to Christians who are seriously offended:

Get a sense of humor. You control all three branches of the government, are threatening to determine the future of education policy in this country, I drive around this town for five minutes without passing at least twenty churches, and you get all hot and bothered over a five dollar plastic fish on my car?

:nopity:

[MindPilot]

88. Bravo! That's the real crux of the issue.

Xians are unable to distinguish between reality and make-believe and then get all offended when the smarter among us point that out.

[marmar]

86. Is there a more useless clump of flesh on this earth than Jonah Goldberg?

Perhaps Fred Kagan.

[kineneb]

87. time for me to put a FSM on the back of my car

to heck with fish, I want His Noodliness on the back of my vehicle...

:evilgrin:

[MindPilot]

89. My fish tale

I used to teach auto shop at a community college. I had a coffee cup with the classic Darwin fish holding a wrench, which I thought was quite appropriate for auto shop. The administration didn't; I was told to take it home because some of the Christian students were "offended by my overt display of Atheism". I shit you not--that's what I was told.

[Elspeth]

120. Did any of your colleagues have Christian emblems on their mugs?

?

[Norrin Radd]

92. I like the T-Rex one:

http://www.evolvefish.com/fish/emblems.html

They sell extra feet now, as people must be vandalizing them (how "Christian" of of them).

[n2doc]

93. Now, if Johnah had gotten cheezed off about THESE ones I might've understood!

Although I am sure he would not be bothered by:


Maybe the true symbol of American Republican Christianity (tm)

[immoderate]

108. Here's my own contribution...

After all it is a symbol for fish. :shrug:



--IMM

[Elspeth]

119. And sometimes a fish is just a fish

:)

[Norrin Radd]

122. Actually, it should read "sashimi," as the "sushi" part of the Japanese dish

is rice mixed with rice vinegar and sugar. ;-)

[Hekate]

95. No sense of humor, that one. We're not talking a super-secret handshake here...

Frankly, in a country where Christian fish symbols adorn just about everything from bumper stickers to the Yellow Pages, it scarcely has the status of a super-secret handshake among endangered brethren any more. This is the United States, where Christian-identified citizens are in the VAST majority and are protected by law in practicing and flaunting their religion to whatever sacred or absurd degree they choose.

Nothing protects them from comedy, however.

And that's what the Darwin Fishies are. Comedy. And all the other fishies that followed are part of the joke.

It's HUMOR, not persecution! Idiot Goldberg. Go worry about the Jews in France fighting the rising tide of anti-Semitism, why don't you? Christianity in America is not under attack.

Hekate

[knight_of_the_star]

98. Just tried to e-mail the pug

Got this message back:

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<[e-mail]>
(reason: 550 5.2.0 /var/mail/jgoldberg: wrong ownership (1002))

Used the e-mail message he had posted at the end of his column, coward, here is what I sent:

Yeah sure, Christians are SOOOO persecuted in America. You have no idea what you are talking about when you claim Christianity is under attack because of a cheap plastic fish someone has on the back of their car, just look up the crap Pagans and Muslims in America have to put up with.

"It's not that secular progressives support Muslim religious fanatics,
but they reserve their passion and scorn for religious Christians who
are neither fanatical nor inclined to use violence."

Yeah sure, explain again why abortion clinics get bombed, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson blamed 9/11 on "Gays, liberals, pagans, atheists" among others, and Pat prayed on his own televised nation-wide show after the ruling in Texas v. Johnson that members of the Supreme Court die.

Do some research to make your uninformed opinion an informed one next time you put pen to paper.

xxxxxxxxx(signed my real name)
PROUD Pagan

Moderation in defense of the truth is no virtue, zeal in the upholding of justice is no vice.

[JuniperLea]

99. Jesus told them there would be days like this...

Instead of whining, he should be happy.

I was raised in an evangelical/fundamentalist environment, and I have a cousin (we were raised in the same church) who is a Christian Missionary... I'm fairly well versed.

I think Jesus would be pissed at these people for not following his word. If God had wanted us to follow everything he said, he would have forced us all to obey his word instead of giving us free will.

[Toasterlad]

109. Totally! It's the Ninth One!

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake". I think it's right after "Blessed are the cheesemakers."

Woo hoo! 12 years of Catholic school not a total waste!

You'd think that given the fact that Jesus TOLD the stupid christians to be happy when someone ran down christianity that they'd be ecstatic about seeing stuff like Darwin fish. Somehow, though, christians always seem to forget about the stuff they're supposed to do, like let insults slide, and not judge others, and love everyone, and do all the stuff they're NOT supposed to do, like whine about anything remotely non-christian, or pass judgment on absolutely EVERYBODY, or hate anyone who doesn't believe what they do. Oh, and gays.

[JuniperLea]

121. Yay! Someone else totally gets it!

I'm not saying I believe all that stuff, but I've done my time in Bible study and I know that for every REAL Christian I meet, I meet 20 who are an abomination to God!

(¯`•.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.- Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -.¸¸.•´¯`•.¸¸.•´¯)

'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Matthew 25:40

"Judge not, lest you be judged yourself. And the measure that you use shall also be put to you." Matthew 7:1-2


Matthew 7:15-20.

King James Version:
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


They can't see the log in their own eye because they are too busy pointing at the splinter in mine!

LOL!

[Initech]

105. Yeah, kill everyone you disagree with. Great argument!

"Geert Wilders' film could very, very easily get him killed. (He's already guarded around the clock.) It essentially picks up the work of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was murdered in 2004 by a jihadi for criticizing Islam."

What a fucking idiot. Like that'll win converts. :eyes: :grr: :puke:

[DutchLiberal]

107. He begins with mentioning 'Fitna', the anti-Islam film from a Dutch MP...

The writer isn't too bright if he thought the movie was either powerful or convincing. The sarcastic comment about European leaders blaming Wilders (the Dutch MP) for sowing hatred implies he is on Wilders' side, or at least he agrees with the film. That alone makes him as paranoid about muslims and Islam as every average Republican or member of the religious right. It's a bigoted anti-muslim film and anybody who is impressed with it should not be taken seriously. Trust me.

[Bucky]

113. I was rolling my eyes until I noted the publication date

[Jed Dilligan]

115. This reminds me of whites lining up to scream "RACISM!" re Rev. Wright.