San Diego Measles Outbreak Shows The Effect of Vaccine Exemptions

[AngryAmish]

"ATLANTA — The recent measles outbreak in San Diego—started by one child who imported the disease from Switzerland—reinforces the ongoing need to maintain high vaccination coverage, Dr. Jane Seward said at the winter meeting of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.

The un-vaccinated 7-year-old boy, who had rash onset 12 days after returning to the United States, infected at least 11 additional children ranging in age from 10 months to 9 years. Four were infected in the pediatrician's office that the child had visited the day before he was taken to a hospital emergency department for high fever and generalized rash. Another two cases were the boy's siblings, while five attended his school.

One infant was hospitalized for 2 days for dehydration, and another traveled by plane to Hawaii while infectious, necessitating “quite a response” by public health authorities in that state, Dr. Seward noted.

All cases were unvaccinated, including eight whose parents had claimed personal belief exemptions. In fact, 10% of the 350 children in the index child's school—kindergarten through 9th grade—were unimmunized because of these sorts of such exemptions, said Dr. Seward, acting deputy director of the CDC's division of viral diseases, National Center for Immunizations and Respiratory Diseases. The other four children were unimmunized because three were less than 12 months of age and therefore too young to be vaccinated and the fourth had received her routine vaccination 6 days after the unrecognized exposure.

At the time of publication in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, the episode had necessitated quarantine of 70 children who lacked evidence of immunity (MMWR 2008;57:1–4).

In the 1950s, 3 million to 4 million cases of measles occurred annually in the United States, causing 4,000 cases of encephalitis, 150,000 respiratory complications, 48,000 hospitalizations, and 450 deaths. Since the implementation of a two-dose immunization schedule in the early 1990s, measles is no longer endemic in the United States. Today, all of the 50 or so U.S. cases reported annually were imported from developed countries including those in Europe and Asia.

There's good and bad news in the San Diego situation, Dr. Seward said. The bad news is that measles is highly infectious and still poses a threat, unimmunized people are still at risk, and many health care providers are not familiar enough with the disease to ensure appropriate infection-control practices in their offices. But on the upside, there were no cases in immunized children. “The wall of immunity held fast. … We need to remember we have an ongoing challenge to sustaining high vaccine coverage to maintain our current elimination status.”



-------------------

My tot got her first set of immunizations yesterday. She was a little cranky and sleepy after but she is right as rain today.

The stupid and selfish parents who do not vaccinate their kids are a public health menace. The only hope we have left is publicly shaming those who don't immunize their kids -- making not immunizing their children be as socially acceptable as farting in public or telling ni**** jokes.

Some kids can't take the shots for health reasons/allergic reactions. Other than that I don't think tots should be allowed in public schools - your religious belief does not trump the health rights of others. We are all in this together. Don't be selfish or stupid. Get your shots.

[villager]

1. As a parent, I don't know if the hysterical attempts to make childhood 100% "disease free"

...are all good.

chicken pox, for example. Not a great experience to go through, but kids do, and then they're naturally "immunized" against it.

Instead, it's become another "shot" everyone feels "obligated" to get.

Not everything is Polio.

[Book Lover]

12. Tell these people that they are having a

mere unpleasant experience (WARNING GRAPHIC)

http://www.vaccineinformation.org/varicel/photos.asp

[hedgehog]

58. All six of my children had chicken pox. One ended up at the ER

with a kidney infection that probably started when she scratched a lesion. Another has a scar on her temple next to her eye. All six are now susceptible to developing shingles any time their immune systems slip up.

[villager]

114. well, my sons, and all their friends at school had it, and everyone is okay

though make no mistake, I'm sorry for your ER trip.

The point is, for these non-lethal diseases for which immunity is naturally developed once they're "got through," I think it needs to be left to the parents whether to vaccinate. We shouldn't be forced by big pharma-induced hysteria.

Nor, regardless of how much we innoculate, can we keep our children from getting sick. I hate it when it happens to them. And yet, they also need to develop immune systems that work.

[Warpy]

19. Chicken pox never leaves the system and turns into

an extremely painful condition in later life called shingles. If it spreads to the brain, it can be fatal.

Measles can be fatal. This is not a benign disease.

Rubella can infect pregnant women whose own immunity has not been kept up. It can cause devastating birth defects in the fetus.

Mumps isn't benign, either, and can cause sterility when adult males catch it.

No, they're not all polio, but they are all highly dangerous diseases.

[MiniMe]

32. Chicken Pox remains dormant at the base of the spine

Under certain conditions such as stress and bad condition, it can come out as shingles. Shingles are basically chicken pox along a nerve, usually in your side.

I never had rubella, but I did have measles, mumps, and chicken pox. That was of course before they had vaccinations against them. I also had rhumatic fever, but apparently no heart damage, all as a kid. I survived, but it was not fun to go through.

I know somebody that had chicken pox as an adult, he got it so bad that he had it on the bottoms of his feet and was miserable. All of these things are especially dangerous when an adult gets them.

[villager]

35. they are indeed more dangerous when adults get them. Hence,

better to let them run their course when folks are young, and can "whither the storm."

[Lance_Boyle]

41. or could it possibly be better not to subject children to it at all?

WTF kind of sick masochistic disease fetish tells a parent that it's better for their kid to suffer measles than to not suffer it?

[villager]

50. Are you a parent?

n/t

[Scout]

69. maybe you shouldn't be one? n/t

[villager]

102. I'm a single parent, half-time, and the last thing I need is second-guessing from a know-nothing

smug, conclusion-jumping asshole, masking unformed opinions in superior, trigger-quick judgments.

Thank god you're not a parent, though-- I'd hate to see another batch of judgmental, smarmy people in the world. Then again, perhaps they'd rebel against you.

And now to the ignore list with thee!

[SidDithers]

105. I had chicken pox at age 35...

thought maybe I'd had a mild childhood version, because I'd been exposed countless times through my life. It wasn't until my daughter caught it that I did too.

While I didn't have very many spots, or much itching, I've never been so sick in my entire life. I spent a week in bed, and the sheets had to be changed every morning, from the sweating each night.

Adult chicken pox are not fun.

Sid

[WCIL]

108. I had them at 20

I caught them from my sister who was 15 when she got them. I had the blisters in my mouth and down my throat, and it made eating nearly impossible. Not that I was much interested in eating, because as SidDithers said, I spent the week in bed and could barely lift my head. Not everyone gets these "childhood" diseases as children, and the consequences can be dire for adults.

[XemaSab]

62. My uncle had mumps encephalitis when he was four and almost died

:(

[SharonAnn]

75. So did my brother and he nearly died. He also had other problems as a result.

[MonkeyFunk]

78. Yep!

I had shingles last summer - nothing I'd recommend.

[MonkeyFunk]

79. Yep!

I had shingles last summer - nothing I'd recommend.

[SidDithers]

106. twice last summer?...

:evilgrin:

Sid

[MonkeyFunk]

115. Pffftt...

it left my clicky finger all twitchy :P

[Ilsa]

109. Pregnant women in the US get a measles titer to make sure they

are protected. If the titer is too low, they cannot take the vax, but they need to be careful about staying away from anyone with the measles.

Getting shingles later in life because of childhood chicken pox isn't a given. And now there is a shingles vax.

Not arguing with you about vaccines, just saying you need to make your info a little clearer.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

27. Its not

Polio, Whooping cough all those are well and good, and for mothers who dont breast feed *maybe* some of the others might be a good idea but some are completely sad..

[SoCalDem]

112. When my neighbor's little girl had chicken pox

most of the Moms had a chicken pox "party" so that all the kids would get exposed at the same time.. We had a few itchy weeks, but I preferred that to having them pass it back and forth all summer long..

[thereismore]

2. Vaccinated kids did not get it, so how are the unvaccinated "a public menace?" nt

[AngryAmish]

4. No vaccines are 100% effective

If the first kid had his shots then no outbreak.

[Lance_Boyle]

5. vaccinated ADULTS are more likely to be infected by the gawd-inspired

vectors. Maybe every adult should be required to get a booster so little Ezekiel and Hezekiah can make their parents' gawd proud? Refusal to vaccinate on religious grounds is abusive, and a menace to public health.

[thereismore]

8. I agree. I refuse to vaccinate on conscientious grounds. nt

[AngryAmish]

10. What does that mean?

"conscientious grounds"?

[hedgehog]

60. It means that it's fine for OUR kids to take the very small risk of

vaccination to protect HIS kids! His kids don't have to take any risk as long as enough of the rest of us vaccinate our kids.

[alarimer]

15. It is not conscientious- it is pure fucking idiocy.

Measles, mumps, etc can have terrible consequences. One of them (and I cannot recall which) causes sterility in biys who get it. So if you want to condemn your child to that, be my guest. But please take your "conscientiousness" and shove it up your own ass.

[damntexdem]

17. That's fine so long as herd immunity protects the rest of us.

When vaccination rates are too low, as shown by this outbreak, then the public good must overcome your opposition to vaccination. In short, if measles is making a comeback in schools, schoolchildren must be vaccinated, whatever their parents want. In that case, if you refuse to vaccinate, you'd better be willing to homeschool as well. However, if measles becomes pandemic in your community, then all bets are off -- mandatory vaccination will be necessary of ALL children.

Assuage your conscience with the thought that no 'vaccination-guilt' will attach to you if your children are vaccinated against your wishes.

[Tesha]

101. You are despicably anti-social.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

Tesha

[ozu]

11. maybe don't label so much

You're going to find a lot of parents on this board who don't immunize, not because of religious beliefs, but because they don't trust the evil evil pharmaceutical companies that are poisoning their precious babies with autism serum.

Both a pretty wacky imo.

[alarimer]

16. Yes, it is complete unscientific crap.

I guess they would prefer going back to the days when most kids died before they were 5 years old. Happy days indeed. I hate to say it but I think more outbreaks (even with dire consequences) are going to have to happen before these idiots wake up.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. Funny thing is nobody of my generation got Chicken Pox as an

adult... we all had it as kids.. now in this next were seeing collage age kids get gravely ill..

BTW: Refusal to vaccinate is not abuse any more than a religious diet or the like... I know its only the freedoms *you* use that are really important right?

[Bill McBlueState]

30. if a religious diet

made my kid substantially more likely to get a devastating disease, I'd call that abuse too.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

34. Right, people need to be protected for their erm.. rights...

Chickenpox is *not* a devastating disease and you can pull out all the outliers you like but basically you get it itch for a week or two and then never get it again. Or you get the shot and then get it as an adult when you are far more likely to get pneumonia... Hmm maybe getting the vaccination is, according to your definition, child abuse..

Ill call my brother in law who as an adult got it after his vaccination wore off..

[Book Lover]

37. As a parent, you do not have the luxury of ignorance

Varicella *can* be a devastating disease. You can start at my post #12, then try this link
http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/handouts/chicken_pox.html if you are interested in the realities of this disease.


on edit: forgot this link, too. http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/03/30/nigerian_officials_try_to_contain_measles/8384

Or do these deaths from chickenpox not count for some reason?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

39. We aint talking polio!

In order to completely insulate kids from 'abuse' we could go to the parents and say is you use bad grammar your kid is more likely to be poor, not be able to afford health insurance, and thus get a bad disease so if you don't stop ending your sentences in prepositions were going to take your kid away, its abusive!

Keep in mind that Chicken pox is *fr* more likely to be bad for an adult to get than a kid and guess what, all vaccinations wear off where as 99.99% of people who get a childhood episode of the pox never sniff it again (and handle it far better than adults)..

[Book Lover]

54. We are still talking about dead and disfigured children, dead because they were not immunized

And if I were you, I would have chosen a less fitting example than poor grammar, my friend.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

56. well the grammar is the fault of my abusive parents..

BTW the first round of vaccinations likely triggered an egg allergy in my oldest girl..

[Book Lover]

57. Yet you have not answered a single one of my points

Farewell, Dad. Here's hoping your children manage somehow.

[laundry_queen]

111. Try meeting a kid who is severely damaged from a vaccine

Children die from those as well. Try reading a package insert once in awhile.

[AngryAmish]

117. This is what is so frustrating debating the anti-vaccine nutters

Nobody ever said or currently says that vaccines never injure children. They do. Children die from vaccines. However, many more will die if vaccines are not given.

For a long time these half-wits (Imus, McCain, etc) said mercury causes autism. That has been disproven repeatedly. It has all the intellectual rigor as toads causing warts. So now they have switched. They say now there are too many vaccines period. Why too many vaccines cause autism is never explained. But these fools are still out there, with ot without evidence. Name them, shame them. Make them know that their dangerous ideas have no place in our society. Oh, you can have the idea. But like Lyndon LaRouche you will be ridiculed for your ideas.

[TZ]

110. Where the FUCK did you get the idea

Thats its healthier to not get the vaccine but to get chicken pox. Here's something simple..get the vaccine and you WON'T get OR GIVE shingles a nasty nasty disease

[MrsMatt]

67. I had chicken pox as an adult

and pregnant - it so happened that I was far enough along in my pregnancy that my daughter avoided the devastating birth defects that can occur. I was also lucky in that I was not TOO far along, so my daughter wasn't born with natal varicella. I happened to hit the "sweet spot", as it were.

Don't tell me that chicken pox is *not* a devastating disease in adulthood, as it could very well have been so for me and my child.

[ellie]

86. An ex-boyfriend

of mine got chicken pox at age 22. He then gave to his sister who was 9 months pregnant and due to deliver. She had chicken pox when she delivered and stopped breathing several times during labor due to the drugs they gave her to make sure she didn't pass it on to her baby. I would say it was a devastating disease for her.

[depakid]

45. Did you not read the posts?

Adults can and DO get chicken pox- as shingles.

Regarding college kids- in Oregon, you need to show that you've had a rubella vaccination OR produce a titer showing that you've had the disease already in order to enroll.

Why? Because back in the 1980's, there was an epidemic- which, aside from producing VERY nasty symptoms in adults, causes birth defects.

Refusing to vaccinate one's kids is a form of child neglect- like any other, and the law needs to treat as such, irrespective of religious beliefs.

[knitter4democracy]

51. That's because they need a booster now.

They originally came up with the chicken pox vaccine to cut parental work time loss and financial loss. Needing a booster erased the financial gain from kids not getting the disease, so they put it off as long as they could. After a couple of outbreaks, they had to change the recommendation. There were interesting editorials and articles in Hubby's New England Journal about it at the time.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

53. Yea and they will need another in their 40's

Cant wait to see what happens when they get on 60...

Or, here is a though, some parents might choose to allow their kids to get a lifelong immunity when they are young and the disease is 99.999% harmless..

[Xithras]

68. Interesting point about 60. Many of our children will die of chicken pox.

I had a conversation with my family doctor about this (he opposes the shot). You have to get the booster every 20 years, which isn't a problem when you're in your 20's and 40's (and assuming you have med insurance). But what happens when you're in your 60's and 80's and it's time for a booster? As my doctor pointed out, the booster vaccine cannot be safely administered to those with weak immune systems or who are immunocompromised, and a weakening of the immune system is a natural part of aging.

In about 60 years we're going to start having major issues with elderly people who need a booster and cannot get one because of other health issues. Once their immunity wanes, a single exposure is inevitable (especially as grandkids visit), and the mortality rate will skyrocket well beyond what it was before the vaccine came into use. This eventuality is known to the medical community, but is largely ignored because it's so far down the road. Those responsible will all be dead, as will nearly all of us, so it gets a shoulder shrug.

[knitter4democracy]

73. Considering many get shingles, it's not so harmless.

The reality is, both options are bad. The vaccine loses potency, but the actual virus likes to rear its ugly head every once in awhile in way too many people. Shingles is a horrible disease in adults and very painful. The vaccine cuts down on shingles, but it has to have boosters, and not everyone knows that or can take them.

[uppityperson]

92. Sticking fingers in ears and going "la la la la la la la la la". Huh. nt

[villager]

104. right -- the attempts to "eradicate" chicken pox have made it, in this case, worse

since it pushes the disease, more commonly, to later stages of life. Plus, I've known several kids who were innoculated and still got it...

[ozu]

6. prety much

That's what I was wondering. It's the kids who's parents refuse to immunize them that are at risk.

Let them deal with it.

[damntexdem]

13. Note those who got ill who were too young for immunization.

Note the infected child who flew to Hawaii, necessitating a multi-state public health response.

Vaccination is not treatment of individuals, it is treatment of populations, of communities. Exemptions are allowable because if enough of a community is immunized, then a few unimmunized free riders can be allowed.

Childhood illnesses are not jokes, nor risk-free. They can be killers; and they can exact much pain, loss of time in school, and other costs. Where infectious illnesses are allowed to be widespread, more-virulent strains can develop -- because they can be successfully transmitted.

This is not an issue of the health of individuals, rather that of populations.

[KitSileya]

33. And those exemptions should be saved for people like my brother

who had a severe allergic reaction to his first vaccine, after which my mom was warned not to let him get any more - especially not the MMR. He is dependent on having the population around him vaccinated against these diseases - especially the mumps which will most likely make him sterile should he get it. My mother had to make sure he had as many childhood diseases as possible as a child, but both the mumps and chicken pox do not give lifelong immunity.

[alarimer]

14. It depends on how many are unvaccinated

10% of kids in that school were unvaccinated, so at least they will be getting sick. And measles can have terrible consequences.

[Lance_Boyle]

3. Physicians should have an exemption

to refuse to treat the "personal belief" vectors. Let their "personal beliefs" cure their measles. Public Health is not something that a few religious wackjobs should be permitted to threaten in this way.

[damntexdem]

7. Exemptions are a luxury based on herd immunity.

If immunization rates drop low enough for outbreaks to occur, then exemptions need to be curtailed.

[Book Lover]

9. And not just in this country

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=222x34183

[damntexdem]

18. About 5% mortality.

Measles is NOT a risk-free disease.

[Hekate]

20. There's 2 generations of Americans who just don't remember the very real threat...

...of these diseases. I am convinced that as a people we live as though history doesn't exist and doesn't apply to us -- especially since public-health history is simply not taught in school, except in passing.

My mother's younger brother, when a baby, almost died of something my sibs and I were vaccinated against -- whooping cough.

My sibs and I suffered through measles, mumps, rubella, and chicken pox. My baby sister had a very sickly childhood after she caught all that from us.

The last big polio epidemic in the 1950s put terrible fear into the hearts of every parent. When the vaccine became available, a clinic was held at our elementary school and parents lined up their kids down the halls and across the playground to protect them against this disease.

When I was in high school I met the sister of one of my classmates -- her mumps had progressed to encephalitis and she was left blind and wearing heavy leg-braces.

Damn straight I got my babies the MMR when it came out, along with the earlier DPT and polio.

We have to clean up the vaccine-making process as much as possible, yes. But these diseases pose a threat to an unvaccinated population with no residual immunity, and ignorance will not protect you or your kids.

Thank you for the reminder.

Hekate

[nykym]

21. So in the guise of prevention for the

masses (SIC) a few adolescent deaths are acceptable! What if it was your who died. Give us a vaccine that is 100% safe and foolproof and Drug companies who stand by their products with unparalleled certainty then you might have a case until then you are the menace to ones right to choose.

[AngryAmish]

22. OK, remember when I said people who refuse immunizations are stupid?

This point was conclusively proven by this post.

[shraby]

23. I put genealogy for my county on the internet.

If you knew how many children I've put on who died from those very childhood diseases, you'd absolutely shudder. I've put some on where the parents lost as many as 5 kids in a 2 week period. One family came home from one of their children's funeral and while they were gone, another died. Don't give me the old "one now and then" schtick. Until vaccines were developed hundreds of thousands died every year across the county.

[SteelPenguin]

42. Funny you should mention a percentage

What if you had your brand new 1 day old baby, when the doctor came in your hospital room and she asked you if you'd prefer a 5% chance of your (currently perfectly healthy) child having a permanent physical disability and/or death, or a 2% chance?

Yes the vaccines aren't 100% safe, but your chances of your child living longer and healthier are far greater taking the risk of vaccination, over the risk of not getting a vaccination. If nobody gets vaccinated at all, then that number jumps dramatically.

[earth mom]

99. Bravo!

:applause:

[knitter4democracy]

24. What about those of us with kids who have trouble with vaccines?

When our kids were babies, they'd get bad reactions from the shots. Our daughter stopped sleeping through the night after her first round at 6 weeks old, as did our son. That took months to get back--a year in our daughter's case. They'd get swelling, rash, high fevers for days, cry for hours on end, you name it. We had to cut back on their shots at any visit and flat-out refused a couple until they were older. We're still putting off Hep B until they're ten, though they did better with the MMR and chickenpox vaccines last time. Still didn't sleep for a couple of nights and had swelling, but at least they didn't get the fevers last time.

Some kids are allergic to the shots, and some have bad reactions. Are you going to make our kids pariahs, too?

[ozu]

25. the last paragraph

says the following "Some kids can't take the shots for health reasons/allergic reactions. Other than that..."

So no, in their case their parents shouldn't be made pariahs.

[knitter4democracy]

26. I saw that, but somehow, I don't see anyone on this thread making exemptions.

Anyone who puts off or denies vaccines to their kid is an idiot, apparently, even though there are kids who can't get the vaccines for various, real health reasons.

[AngryAmish]

29. A lot of kids get fevers after the shots

Your daughter slept through the night at six weeks? You were lucky. We feel pretty lucky when we get five hours.

My tot slept most of the day yesterday and was cranky when not sleeping. Luckily better today but one never knows when the fever might spike.

But as I said before some kids get allergic reactions and some actually are killed by the vaccination. Each child's death is a tragedy. However many more will die without them.

If a child has a know bad reaction, documented by medical professionals as caused by the vaccination then that child should not be forced to get the shot. But otherwise, everyone should be forced to get the shot to go to school. I really think it is selfish not to.

(BTW, putting off the Hep B until age ten seems like good sense to me. No need to get it so young.)

[knitter4democracy]

49. She had just started sleeping through the night.

This after only sleeping for half an hour at a stretch. After days of fever and screaming and rash after her first set of shots, she went back to only sleeping for half an hour, maybe forty minutes, at a stretch. We tried everything, and not a damn thing worked until after we moved up here to Michigan where it was darker at night. After every time she'd get shots, she wouldn't sleep at all that night but instead be up screaming all. night. long. So, yeah, I got to the point I hated the shots.

Our son wasn't quite so dramatic, but he'd get the swelling and high fevers for days and just want to nurse the entire time. Not easy to go through, and I only did it because he needed those shots to be safe and healthy.

Oh, and we decided to put off Hep B after the chief of peds at Rainbow Children's in Cleveland told Hubby during his peds rotation in med school that they only do that one because it's harder to get older kids in to see the doctor for vaccines. There are very, very few cases of kids even being exposed to it as little ones, since in the US, it's mostly sexually transmitted. So, when ours are ten, they're going to get Hep B and Hep A, unless we are going to travel before that, given the high Hep rates outside of the US.

[Hekate]

47. A fever is a sign that the child's immune system is kicking in & will recognize the disease later...

...if exposed. At least that's what I was taught back in the day. I sympathized with my baby's fever and fussiness and gave her comfort measures, including a soak in the sink for her owie leg, but I would never have skipped her shots.

When my brother and I got vaccinated for smallpox we were *supposed* to get a strong reaction and it was *supposed* to leave a visible scar. His shot didn't "take" and he actually had to be revaccinated. Actual smallpox, if it didn't kill you outright, would leave you with terrible scars over your entire face and body, so one scar on the upper arm was a small price to pay.

Now, one possible cause of excess reaction to vaccinations that was known over 50 years ago is the medium in which the vaccine is "brewed" -- there's horse serum, and some are allergic to horses, and there's eggs, and some are allergic to eggs. There should be a work-around for those cases.

As for others with genuine problems, their doctors and parents have to take them on a case by case basis. If they really can't handle the shots, you just have to pray that their immune systems stay strong AND that the entire rest of the community stays vaccinated.

Hekate

[knitter4democracy]

52. That wasn't the only reaction, though.

We had a whole gamut of reactions in both kids (who are also allergic to dairy and a bunch of other stuff). We put off some shots until they were older, did multiple visits to make sure they never got more than three sticks per visit, and lengthened out as long as we could in between shots. They're up-to-date now except for Hep B, which we're doing when they're ten.

Edited to add: my kids were reported as having worse than usual reactions, and they've been forbidden to get the smallpox shot, as have I. We get bad eczema, and Hubby, as an internist, can't even get the shot in case he'd give us the disease.

[Hekate]

55. Sounds like you're doing the very best thing for your own situation

With my little grandson (I've only got the one, who's now three yo) and all the controversy over "too many too fast" on the vaccinations, I offered to help my daughter by taking him to the pediatrician for extra visits if she wanted to stretch out the process. However, she'd already determined to go with the standard schedule, I think.

That was a big change on her part, because a decade or so ago she was under the influence of someone who believed that exposure and homeopathy would make for stronger kids, and thought that vaccinations were a moneymaking plot by Big Pharma. Her friend was older than her but younger than me, and neither was old enough to have actually experienced all the old childhood diseases.

So far, so good.

Best of luck with your brood. Parenting ain't easy.

Hekate

[knitter4democracy]

74. Amen to that. Parenting is such a crap shoot.

Some days I wonder if I did the right thing about the vaccines, and other days I'm sure of myself. The reality is, I'll never know which way would've been better for my kids. Ugh.

[MiniMe]

59. Yours is an entirely different story. You have valid reasons (health reasons)

However, it seems like except for the smallpox, you are getting your kids the vaccinations, you are just spreading the schedule a bit. That is a very reasonable plan. I would have no objections to a plan like that. And I assume that if the kids (and you) could have the smallpox vaccine, you would opt for that one too. Not getting it in this case sounds wise.

However, you and your kids are definitely at risk if a lot of people decide not to get a smallpox vaccine and we have a smallpox outbreak. It could be that people are out and about before they are showing symptoms. That is the reason that I think as many people as possible should be vaccinated, so they don't endanger those who can't get the vaccine. One could say they are only endangering themselves, or people who choose not to have it, but they are also endangering those who can't have it.

[Hekate]

63. Interesting thing about smallpox vax.They stopped being given after it was officially eradicated

...from the planet. It felt weird to have that one left off my kids' schedule. What I never, ever, forgot though, is that there are stores of the disease material in deep-freezes in both the US and former USSR.

Hekate

[MiniMe]

65. Wasn't polio declared eradicated too?

I can't remember, I thought it was at one time. However, it has started popping up again.

[Hekate]

70. No, polio is still with us. IIRC, the Gates Foundation is working on polio vaccinations worldwide.

[kineneb]

72. no. endemic to some areas

India, Nigeria, and several other countries. Rotary International is another NGO working on the eradication of polio. It is especially devastating in countries with minimal public health infrastructure. The children which survive polio are terrible financial burdens to already poor families; they are often social outcasts as well.

[AngryAmish]

88. I once read polio is endemic in soil

I don't know if it is true.

[knitter4democracy]

82. Well, I did deny a couple.

I had two peds try to pressure me into giving the kids the older pneumovax, the one that was sold as curing ear infections and then was found not to do that at all. My kids weren't at risk at all (exclusively breastfed), but the first one fired me as a patient when I refused to pay $150 for the vaccine (required a booster, insurance wouldn't pay for it at all) and brought in a copy of the NEJM article saying that it didn't work for what she said it was.

Hubby and I worry about smallpox. As an internist, he'd be likely to be exposed (he'd be required to go in for a Code Black). If he is, though, the kids and I can't get it without serious repercussions. So, he hasn't gotten vaccinated but would should anything happen, and we'd just have to pray that the kids and I would be okay.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

113. I remember getting sick from my smallpox vaccinations, too

But it was nothing more than like a mild flu.

They actually gave all immunizations free through the school system in the town where I went to elementary school. They'd send home parental permission cards, and there was a set schedule for which grade got which shots.

This was before there were vaccines for measles, mumps, or chicken pox, but the school administered smallpox, polio (in the days of the Salk vaccine), and diptheria-tetanus shots.

I had both measles and chicken pox when I was in fourth grade, both of them really severely. The eyes are very sensitive to light during an attack of measles, so I had to stay in a darkened room, no reading, no TV, for several days. I was actually too sick to care. Two weeks after I returned to school, chicken pox swept through the town, and I was in for another round of misery. I was covered in blisters all over. I recall counting them: 80 blisters on just one side of my forearm, for example.

Mumps, which I had in second grade, felt like a REALLY bad sore throat.

I never had kids, but if I had, they would have been immunized.

As for the alleged vaccine-autism connection, Japan has never had mercury in its vaccines, and autism is rising there, too. I wonder if it's something else in the environment and that its emergence just happens to coincide with the age at which most infants are immunized. (Others say that it's all a matter of diagnostic categories changing, that kids who wouldn't have been considered autistic twenty years ago, just "a bit odd," are now considered to have "autism spectrum disorder.")

[Xithras]

64. My son has allergies to some.

A number of vaccines are cultured using egg whites, and my son is deathly allergic to eggs. When he was two he stuck his hand into a bowl of uncooked cookie dough, and his entire arm swelled up so badly that he was bleeding from beneath his finger nails. A shot of an egg-cultured vaccine would kill him.

He has all of the vaccines that are cultured through other means, but none of the egg vaccines. MMR vaccines and flu shots are off the table (modern MMR is safe for most egg-sensitive people, but not my son because his allergy is so sensitive).

[MiniMe]

66. Yours is one of the very valid health reasons not to get certain vaccines

See my response here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3090028&mesg_id=3090906

You are getting the others. Good for you. You are doing what you should do.

[slackmaster]

31. Stupid and selfish perhaps, but there are some legitimate concerns

The daughter of one of my coworkers had a bad reaction to a Hepatitis B vaccine. She has permanent neurlogical damage.

Those reactions are rare, but from the perspective of a parent it can change your view radically.

[nykym]

36. to Angry Amish

Read the post before this one its what I was trying to point out before you proved your own stupidity.

[AngryAmish]

38. OK, I read it

It means nothing. I could point out to you all the anecdotes I have experienced about the terrible toll of childhood diseases. But anecdote is not evidence.

Anecdote is not data.

(BTW, if you think one person relaying an incident is data (or in any way persuasive when dealing with public health) then my conclusion of your mental abilities was wrong. I grossly overestimated your intelligence previously. I apologize.)

[nykym]

43. All I am saying is that the vaccines were created.

with the intent of helping humankind but the drug companies that produce them, while they do random testing they do not do a thorough job. One death as the result of a vaccine IS NOT acceptable. And Doctors are at fault for pushing too many too soon. Weather it is a result of the drug companies sales force or the AMA more research is needed to determine the best times to administer and how much at a time. One final note I think this is true but may be wrong, natural immunization is often better than lab created immunity, now I wouldn't suggest this for polio or hepatitis. but for most childhood diseases I personally think it is better and longer lasting. Vaccines do wear of so to speak. And lastly if I noticed my child was sick I would not allow her to be around infants or the elderly or in a public situation it's just common sense. I think people need to see both sides and make an informed decision.

[SteelPenguin]

44. so....

If you immunized a million kids and one died that would be unacceptable, even if 1000 would have died if you hadn't immunized any? That's completely illogical.

Sure they need to work on timings, and continue to make the vaccinations safer and safer, but by your logic because people die during surgery, nobody should ever have one, even if it saves more lives in the long run.

[AngryAmish]

46. 1,000,000 people get a vaccine for disease X

Without the vaccine 30 people will die from disease X.

3 people die from the vaccine to disease X.

Are you telling me that it IS NOT acceptable to give people the vaccine to disease X?

[MiniMe]

48. The problem is that almost always, you are contagious before you start showing symptoms.

That is why it is hard to control an "epidemic". That plus as adults we live under the pressure to work sick, and not take time off if we are ill.

[Hekate]

61. Rubella, aka German measles, is very mild. Unless you are a fetus in the womb & your mother gets it.

Say you are a mom with kids, and you just got pregnant with another one. Your kids bring home rubella, which you never had as a kid. They get a mild rash and a fever, you get a mild rash and a fever. No biggie.

Now your fetus is another matter. It may miscarry. But there's worse, believe me. If carried to term, a fetus infected --particularly in the first trimester -- will be born deaf, possibly blind. Good luck with that one.

Hekate

[knitter4democracy]

83. They do test.

The chickenpox vax was used extensively in Japan long before it was used here. We just tried to ignore the need for a booster, which has become abundantly obvious since.

The reality is, even a placebo has a risk when you apply it to the entire country. It's unrealistic to hope for 0% mortality and morbidity. I have bad reactions to supposedly safe drugs, and I just expect it these days. I don't blame Pharma for not knowing how my body will react; I just keep my list updated with all my doctors and ask a millions questions before taking anything.

[earth mom]

100. Another excellent post!

:thumbsup:

[MiniMe]

40. I had most of those diseases as a kid, they aren't fun

The one I didn't get was ruebella, I got scarlett fever instead. Here is my suggestion. Except for allergy/health reasons, I think that all kids should get the vaccinations. I agree that they need more study to make sure they are safe. I also think that a more spread out vaccination schedule would work better. How can you fight off so many things at one time with the stacked vaccinations?

I know I had one vaccine that made me sick as a dog, I think it was diptheria, but I'm not sure. I was in high school and about to travel overseas with my parents. One of the countries were were going to required the vaccine.

It seems like a log of those old childhood diseases are starting to crop up again. Polio had been wiped out, but its back. Same with small pox. I agree that part of the problem is lack of the horrible consequences of not having a vaccine. The other part is the drug companies. This is another thing that too many people don't think about until its too late.

[Fireweed247]

71. I think you should direct your anger at the idiots who put mercury in the vaccinations

Some parents believe that some of the crap they put in vaccinations are not good for newborns and young children especially in the number and triple doses that society demands. How about the newborns given hepatitis vaccinations before they leave the hospital. Is there any point you think they might go too far?

I think it is selfish and stupid to demand we all participate in group think and group behavior.

[Robb]

76. Oh, grow up. I've about had it with some responses in this thread.

I'm sick to death of people -- including parents, hell, including my parents -- who refuse to believe doctors have any idea what they're talking about.

Or who believe, because they don't trust them smarty-pants doctors, that medical studies are a load of crap. That every doc on the planet just sat around drinking high-end bourbon for eight years instead of studying medicine.

That, somehow, the half-wittery "some parents believe" because they read something in "Prevention" -- or half a paragraph they barely remember from a Newsweek article they didn't understand -- makes it somehow OK to ignore the vast, VAST body of data collected and collated by people who devote their lives to the topic.

Group think? Group think? What are you, 12? Or do you live on an island in a plastic bubble?

Sure, corporations are evil. Great. Knock me over with a fucking feather, Einstein.

But there are doctors and researchers who actually gave a crap over the years. What's more, there are patients who went untreated before we understood these diseases who are now dead. You want to spit on their graves because you don't know there's more than one kind of chemical in the world with the word "mercury" in its name?

It's also the name of an outboard motor. And that's about as relevant when everything you know about the workings of the human body came from a buddy who works at... well, anywhere but freakin' JAMA.

Christ. Not everything is a goddamn conspiracy.

[TheMightyFavog]

95. Robb, if we could nominate individual posts for the greatest page...

I'd be giving you a wholehearted Rec!

That was a well worded and informative post.

[Hekate]

116. LOL. Take a bow, Robb. nt

[rexcat]

85. That is an interesting point...

considering they have not had mecury in children's vaccines for the past 5+ years! There is nothing like being up to date with your facts.

[earth mom]

98. Excellent Post!

:applause:

[earth mom]

77. This thread and your pro vaccine stance is TOTAL BULLSHIT.

I guess it's okay for YOU that millions of children have developed Autism as a result of numerous shots the greedy pharma giants have pushed upon infants-all so your precious little tot can supposedly be protected-at the expense of others. Guess it's "socially acceptable" to you that the current vaccine schedule has harmed innocent babies brains, hmm? So, Who is the menace here?! I'd say YOU and your selfish bullshit! Because this is NOT just about YOU and YOUR precious tots! Funny how your disgusting bullshit can be turned back to bite YOU in the ass! :puke:


FYI-The current vaccination schedule is fair to NO child if it harms EVEN ONE child in the first place!


The greedy pharma giants can fuck off as far as I'm concerned.

The CDC needs to first and foremost prevent hurting any more of this countries children!

Vaccinations should only be given on a case by case basis and solely at the discretion of the parent and family doctor.


Oh and BTW, I was born with measles and am still alive and kicking at close to 50.

I don't buy into all the ridiculous terra terra bullshit the government is feeding you and the rest of the public!

Talk about stupid and gullible. :eyes:

[Book Lover]

80. Please, great Galen, tell me this post is sarcasm

[earth mom]

81. Yeah, tell that to the parents whose kids are vaccine damaged. It's all a joke, right?

:puke:

[varkam]

84. Oh good grief.

I guess it's okay for YOU that millions of children have developed Autism as a result of numerous shots the greedy pharma giants have pushed upon infants-all so your precious little tot can supposedly be protected-at the expense of others. Guess it's "socially acceptable" to you that the current vaccine schedule has harmed innocent babies brains, hmm? So, Who is the menace here?! I'd say YOU and your selfish bullshit! Because this is NOT just about YOU and YOUR precious tots! Funny how your disgusting bullshit can be turned back to bite YOU in the ass!

My first clue that this is crazy nonsense? The reference to autism. There's still zero connection between vaccines and autism, but don't let me rain on your parade.

FYI-The current vaccination schedule is fair to NO child if it harms EVEN ONE child in the first place!

What about the lives that they save?

Oh and BTW, I was born with measles and am still alive and kicking at close to 50.

So are you saying that measles is not a life-threatening disease because your life wasn't cut short by it? Wow - that's some pretty impressive logic you got there, sparky.

[depakid]

87. Your post summarizes EXACTLY why we need laws mandating vaccination

Too many Americans have become incapable of reading, much less understanding science and medicine- and are all too easily FRIGHTENED by all the conspiracy and paranoia sites on the web.

Not vaccinating one children amounts to child neglect- plain and simple, and it's also a public health hazard. These are the sorts of deals the law has addressed since the dawn of civilization, and there's no good reason (outside of a valid medical exemption) that the law ought not to address it now.

[earth mom]

97. No, the neglect was when the CDC and the pharma giants didn't give a damn

that their massive vaccination schedule hurt innocent children! Instead they spent years covering their a$$es!

FYI-I've studied this issue plenty and my response has absolutely nothing to do with fear and everything to do with fact!


Not only that, but this country needs less government interference not more-especially in regard to our bodies.

So what's your position on abortion, stem cell research and euthanasia?

I bet you think the government should pass every law they can against all of them too. :eyes:

[rexcat]

89. Please don't take any vaccines or medications...

that way the big bad pharma companies won't get your money. If you develop diabetes, or cancer, or hypertension or some other disease that can be controlled by medication I am sure you can pray to your god for a cure and it will happen.

Now for full disclosure. I work for the pharma companies as a consultant in oncology clinical trials. There was a time when childhood cancers were about 90% fatal. The current numbers have survival rates at 80%. I will take 80% survival rate over 90% death rate any day. On top of that the Pharma companies have developed drugs that can treat diabetes and other conditions that were considered life-threatening and are now considered chronically manageable. Pharma companies are not all bad or all good. They have their issues such as pricing of new drugs that make it to market but they also do some good. There are a lot of drugs that are now off patent and are extremely affordable to treat many maladies of humankind.

The biggest part of clinical trial costs are now with marketing of approved drugs. About half of the cost of "drug development" is is due to marketing costs because in 1994-95 the fucking republicans in Congress passed a law allowing for Pharma companies to market prescription drugs to the public and Bill Clinton signed the damn bill. May I suggest you get off your high horse and start thinking before you react.

[AngryAmish]

90. If I thought my tot was precious, why would I expose her to something that causes autism?

FYI, my tot is quite precious to me. That is why I had her immunized and will continue to do so.

Debating autism/vaccine linking half-wits used to be fun. Now I'm tired and going to bed. Needless to say, yours is the ascientific nonsense that is dangerous and needs to be ostracized, you dangerous idiot.

[earth mom]

96. So your precious tot is more important than everyone else's? Well, Ain't that special?

NOT! Your tot's rights end where others rights begin. Don't you forget that!

You are the dangerous idiot as you seem to buy into every bit of terror the government and big pharma dishes out!

You obviously have not a wit of common sense. Time for the ignore button-for the second time.

I bet you think the terra-rists are in Eye-Rac too! :eyes:

[Fireweed247]

91. Most parents to not read the facts- they just do what they are told

If the doctor called for 50+ vaccinations in the first year of life, some of these people would still go along with it no questions asked.

[villager]

103. Exactly -- they wouldn't even *ask* or get any other opinions

And yet "free thinking" DUers think this should be one of the no-questions-asked arenas of their lives...

[TheMightyFavog]

94. I shall refute this post with a snippet of dialouge from my favorite TV show.

Dr. Gregory House: No fever, glands normal. Missing her vaccination dates.
Young Mother: We're not vaccinating.
Dr. Gregory House: Think they don't work?
Young Mother: I think some multinational pharmaceutical company wants me to think they work. Pad their bottom line.
Dr. Gregory House: Mmmm. May I?

Young Mother: Sure.
Dr. Gregory House: Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.

Dr. Gregory House: All natural, no dyes. That's a good business - all-natural children's toys. Those toy companies, they don't arbitrarily mark up their frogs. They don't lie about how much they spend in research and development. The worst a toy company can be accused of is making a really boring frog. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit. You know another really good business? Teeny tiny baby coffins. You can get them in frog green or fire engine red. Really. The antibodies in yummy mummy only protect the kid for six months, which is why these companies think they can gouge you. They think that you'll spend whatever they ask to keep your kid alive. Want to change things? Prove them wrong. A few hundred parents like you decide they'd rather let their kid die then cough up 40 bucks for a vaccination, believe me, prices will drop *really* fast. Gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit, gribbit.
Young Mother: Tell me what she has.
Dr. Gregory House: A cold.

[uppityperson]

93. Reading the responses here gives me hope.

It is very nice to see so many people in support of vaccines. Yes, more needs to be done, and yes, there are some kids who shouldn't get them due to allergies or immune deficiency issues, but most kids should. It is really nice to see the responses here.

[earth mom]

107. Here, educate yourself:

"Many people aren't aware that in the 1980s our children received only 10 vaccines by age 5, whereas today they are given 36 immunizations, most of them by age 2. With billions of pharmaceutical dollars, could it be possible that the vaccine program is becoming more of a profit engine then a means of prevention?

We believe autism is an environmental illness. Vaccines are not the only environmental trigger, but we do think they play a major role. If we are going to solve this problem and finally start to reverse the rate of autism, we need to consider changing the vaccine schedule, reducing the number of shots given and removing certain ingredients that could be toxic to some children.

We take into account that some children have reactions to medicines like penicillin, for example, yet when it comes to vaccines we are operating as if our kids have a universal tolerance for them. We are acting like ONE SIZE FITS ALL. That is, at the very least, a huge improbability.
Even if the CDC is not convinced of a link between vaccines and autism, changing the vaccine schedule should be seriously considered as a precautionary measure. (If you would like to see some ideas for alternative schedules, check out http://generationrescue.org.)


We wish to state, very clearly, that we are not against all vaccines, but we do believe there is strong evidence to suggest that some of the ingredients may be hazardous and that our children are being given too many, too soon!"

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/02/mccarthy.autsimtreatment/index.html

[AngryAmish]

118. You are taking medical advice from JENNY MCCARTHY

Why not quote Samantha Fox? She has as much credibility.