"Illegal Alien" is a Republican buzzword and I refuse

[cboy4]

to use it.

Undocumented worker, or undocumented (fill in the blank) is suffice.

The Republicans use "illegal alien," because as an intolerant people, it's in their nature.

But I'm not intolerant, so I won't say it with foam drooling from my mouth like Lou Dobbs, or in any other context.

Because all it does is offend and divide when it comes to the issues of people with brown skin.

It solves nothing.

The sad thing is I know there will be plenty of DUers who will be going absolute apeshit over the fact that I'm saying "illegal alien" is Republican hate speak.

Sorry. I think it is.

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. I agree

Glad to see this.

[LoZoccolo]

2. Is it OK to mention that it is illegal to be in the country as an undocumented worker?

Thank you in advance for your prompt reply.

[cboy4]

6. Yea, I have absolutely no problem if it's phrased that way.

Of course, you realize that using the word "illegal" in the context of "undocumented worker" is redundant.

[superkia]

35. Its like we have doctors who prescribe us legal drugs and we...

have people who sell us the same drugs, in our neighborhood, we like to call them "undocumented doctors". Most schools have "undocumented doctors" prescribing the other children stuff like adderall and such and they get a bad rap. They are only doing what the legal doctors are doing but they just don't have their papers on the wall in a frame. Their just trying to make a living and as they do it, they are helping the other children study better.

[Richard Steele]

138. People break laws every day, but only a certain group get tagged with the label "illegal".

Someone whose sole source of income comes from running a METH LAB:
we have lots of folks like that, but are they ever called "illegal citizens"?

Those ENRON™ scumbags who stole Billion$, and laughed at the old folks
who froze to death because of their crimes- are they ever called "illegal businessmen"?

No, they aren't. And that proves that "illegal" is not a mere description,
it's a SLUR. A racist slur with evil intent that goes far beyond the
textbook definition of the word itself.


What's most disturbing about the xenophobic & neo-racist "illegal alien"
label is that most of the people it's applied to are just about the
most honest and HARDEST WORKING people in this USA at the moment.

[EFerrari]

145. You and I could talk about "those people" overrunning our neighborhood

over the back fence.

"Those people" may be accurate in some way, but you and I would know what we're talking about in context. We'd be talking about "them" -- whoever "them" is. Black people, brown people, poor people, those people.

All these idiotic arguments for literal accuracy are either disingenuous or not even trying or stupid as a bag of doorknobs.

[Richard Steele]

158. Speaking of "a bag of doorknobs", check out post #149 directly below. nm

[TCJ70]

149. The difference is...

...(and I know this won't be popular, but it's an explanation) is that people who run meth labs don't do that every minute of every day. If someone comes to this country by illegal means, they're breaking that law every minute of every day. Hardest working or not, illegal alien fits the bill when it comes to a description.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

160. 90 minutes of cricket and lonely coyote noises later...no response from this Lou Dobbs fan.

Gee, what a shock.


















NOT.

[TCJ70]

188. I have never seen Lou Dobbs

and I can't be at my computer all the time.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EFerrari]

189. That's the most ridiculous argument yet.

lol

[TCJ70]

198. Apparently 3 other people felt the same way...

...but I didn't see their posts before they were disappeared. You managed to say it more nicely than they did I guess...heh

I said it wouldn't be popular in the post...heh

[EFerrari]

201. Fyi, undocumented workers break the law when they cross the border.

They are not breaking the law every minute they are here. That's one reason that in the past, the police didn't get involved in immigration matters. What changed is that the prison complex has become big business and that this issue is being flogged by the Republicans who like to point to round ups as evidence that they are doing something for their bigot base.

[TCJ70]

202. It's just the way I read the word...

...illegal alien is a person from another country is here by some means other than legal immigration. I take that to mean that while they're outside their own country the term applies all the time. You aren't an illegal alien only at the time you cross the border.

EDIT: had to fix some wording...didn't make sense.

[EFerrari]

208. Undocumented workers are not illegal. Their immigration status is.

There is a difference even if the literalists and the cowboys on this thread don't get it.

And more than that, the OP is right. In using the RW term, we're carrying water for them and their attempt to dehumanize a whole group of people whose families in good standing vote for Democrats.

Nice work, guys!

[TCJ70]

212. Hold on...

...aren't the terms "undocumented worker" and "illegal alien" the same thing? The only difference is that some people think one is more offensive than the other right?

[EFerrari]

214. No, they are not the same thing.

One is a description of a person who doesn't have the papers they need to work here. The other is a term that the RW uses to facilitate their scapegoating.

[TCJ70]

217. Well then we can't use one to replace the other...

...since they don't mean the same thing.

From what I understand, "illegal alien" refers to someone living here. An "undocumented worker" doesn't neccesarily have to live here, then. If they do, though, then they would become an "illegal alien" or "illegal immigrant".

Either way, "undocumented worker" is not an adequate substitute for "illegal alien".

[EFerrari]

218. Pseudo logic whose fallacy has been explained up and down

this thread.

[TCJ70]

219. Then we'll just have to disagree on this one.

Have a great day! :hi:

[matcom]

3. HUMANS are NOT Illegal

period.

[unblock]

19. that's an excellent frame. actions can be illegal (murder, theft, tresspassing, left turns, etc)

but people are not illegal.

undocumented workers are "here illegally" or "illegally residing in the u.s."

but they are not "illegal".

[El Pinko]

162. That's why they are called illegal aliens.

Their presence in the US is illegal, hence illegal alien. If they were in Mexico, they would no longer be aliens. The word "alien" refers SPECIFICALLY to their presence in a foreign country. It doesn't mean that the person is illegal - it means that their alien status is. We also refer to people as "legal immigrants". That doesn't mean there is such a thing as a "legal person". What an infantile argument.

[skepticscott]

39. Perhaps their existence is not

but their status is. Their presence in this country is a violation of the law, every minute of every day. Is any other violation of law so complete? The term "undocumented worker" is merely a transparent attempt to gloss over, excuse and rationalize these peoples' illegal entry into, and residence in, this country.

[Forkboy]

4. I think it is too.

K&R dude. :thumbsup:

[LanternWaste]

5. I absolutely agree.

I absolutely agree.

If illegal drivers (speeders), illegal walkers (jaywalkers), etc. were used in common parlance, your point might be arguable-- but as "illegal" precedes only 'immigrants' in everyday conversations, I'm forced to agree with you...

[G_j]

7. a person cannot be illegal, only an act can

and of course, hate crimes against these people is way up..


btw, Kucinich also agrees, a human being cannot be illegal!

[Clovis Sangrail]

8. you shouldn't concede the english language so easily

... and I don't mean to people from another country, I mean to those from your own.
The words 'illegal' and 'alien' are both valid descriptions of undocumented workers.

The right wing has also done quite a number on the word 'liberal' - should we stop using that as well?

[cboy4]

15. Apples and oranges Clovis. The Republican use

"illegal alien" to pour fuel on the fire of an important debate.

They use it to repress.

They use it to stir the pot and make people angry.

Who cares if they mock the word "liberal?"

I'm happy and proud to be liberal. And it's certainly not being used as the same form of hate speak.

So the bottom line is, why do you feel you have to say illegal alien?

Does that make you happy?

[Clovis Sangrail]

176. lol

if you don't think the word 'liberal' is being used as a form of hate speech then you don't live in the south.
Where I am the term is used as a synonym for 'idiot' or 'unamerican'

... and I don't feel 'I have to say illegal alien'. I'm just not going to back away from a term that's correct because it's unpopular.
No more than I back away from the terms 'social program' or 'liberal'.

Some words/terms carry connotations no matter what context they are used in.
Other words/terms don't.
("that's so gay" vs. "I'm proud to be gay")
If you can't tell the difference I'm sorry for you.

As far as I can see demonizing words like 'liberal' or 'illegal alien' is really nothing more than a continuation of the rightwing media campaign that started with Newt Gingrich.
The extent to which people back away from legitimate terms they demonize is the measure of their success.

[alstephenson]

16. A 'valid description', but racist.

Your reasoning regarding the word 'liberal' escapes me.

[orangerevolution]

53. From Wiki dictionary

"Racism has many definitions, the most common being that members of one racial group consider themselves intrinsically superior to members of other racial groups. Racism inherently starts with the assumption that there are taxonomic differences between different groups of people. Without this assumption, prejudices against different peoples would be categorised as being prejudices related to national or regional origin, religion, occupation, social status or some other distinction."

Be sure you are using the word racist correctly.

[RedCappedBandit]

123. Seems pretty racist to me.

Even according to your one definition.

[alstephenson]

130. Whatever. In my opinion the words "illegal alien"...

are used purposely to incite racist feelings and racism.

[Clovis Sangrail]

186. you're right... they often are used that way

Somebody could use the term 'rabbit' in a racist way .... that doesn't mean the word itself is racist
nor does that mean that I should no longer use the word

[Clovis Sangrail]

187. valid descriptions aren't racist

at least not beyond the association you assign to them
Racists can, and DO, use the term 'illegal aliens' to try to give their arguments some legitimacy beyond racism... that still doesn't make the term racist.

It's all context.

[blondeatlast]

9. Agreed, agreed, agreed. K&R. nt

[provis99]

10. I'm actually more offended by the "alien" part

why can't the Republicans at least refer to them as immigrants, not aliens? I guess because immigrant sounds more humanizing than alien.

[slackmaster]

14. I remember being creeped out by the word "alien" when I was a kid

Naturally my first exposure to the word was in science fiction.

I remember PSAs on TV reminding aliens to remember to do some kind of recurring paperwork. Hearing people referred to as aliens seemed pretty strange at the time.

[mitchum]

127. I remember those same PSAs and also remember being disapponted that the individuals...

didn't have tentacles or antennae or eyestalks
What a ripoff!

[El Pinko]

179. The use of "alien" for "outsider" predates its use for "extraterrestrial"...

...as does the expression "illegal alien".

[Igel]

44. Because "immigrant" implies that they've immigrated.

But not everybody that's here illegally intends to stay permanently.

Hence "alien", just a nice Latinate word pre-dating sci-fi to mean "from another place". Cognate with "ajeno", I think.

Not only is it the "Republican" term, but it was really the only one in the 19th century and the one in the legal code.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

192. Alien has been a valid legal description

for decades... It just means 'not of this nation'...

[noel711]

11. I agree!

What gets me is that most of these idiots who are so
vehement against immigrants claim they are christians.

but if they really knew the bible, they'd know
there are biblical injunctions/expectations
that demand care and feeding of 'resident aliens.'

That's what angered God and the prophets throughout
Old testament... people were not being compassionate.

[slackmaster]

12. I believe the term was originally a PC replacement for slurs like "wetback"

It doesn't sound offensive to me at all, whereas "undocumented worker" sounds strained.

Illegal alien contrasts well with terms like legal alien, legal resident, resident alien, and non-resident alien.

Funny how these things can evolve.

[Aristus]

13. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if someone is emigrating from Mexico

and going to, say, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada, Colorado or Oregon, then they're not here illegally; they're just COMING HOME.

The Indian Wars and the Mexican-American War are two examples of a time in our history when we could just make up a reason to go to war, fight the war, grab all of the spoils in the name of "freedom and democracy" and actually get away with it.

We just don't do that as well as we used to...

[Xithras]

21. Bull.

FYI, my wife is 1/4 Osage. Most of the Native American's I've met don't like Mexican immigration. As one once put it to me "We were invaded once by white men from the east. Now we're being invaded by brown men from the south. Same story, same result, different faces."

He pointed out that the tribes didn't exactly get along before they were conquered by the whites. A migration like the one happening now would have led to outright warfare and slaughter between the tribes. The story may be a little different for a handful of the border tribes that once straddled the present border, but the further you move away from it the more opposition grows.

Besides, there's also a common opinion that Mexicans are Europeanized sellouts. Very few Mexican migrants speak their ancestral languages, and fewer hold to tribal traditions. They may be brown, but they speak and behave like Europeans (albeit very poor Europeans). You don't see many Mexicans at PowWows.

[Aristus]

38. Keep in mind, the "south-of-the-border" Indians, the Maya, the Aztec, Toltec

and so on were forced on pain of death, to renounce their cultural traditions and languages and so forth, learn Spanish, convert to Catholicism, and "become" European. They weren't "selling out", they were trying to keep themselves and their families alive. Look at the faces of the people coming across the border; those aren't European faces, they're the faces of native Meso-American tribes.

The U.S. did that to north-of-the-border tribes, too. I don't know to what degree the Osage were subjected to "civilizing" programs, but there were many others who were taken away from their tribal elders, sent to schools with white teachers and administrators, forced to learn English, prohibited from speaking their tribal languages, and coerced into adopting European styles in dress, manners, music, literature, behavior and customs.


Anyway, any move against immigrants themselves, rather than the people who hire them at pennies on the dollar, smacks of blaming the victims. They're coming here so they can work and feed their families, the same reason most of our ancestors came here, too. And they're not committing acts of genocide against entire peoples in order to do so, the way the ancestors of European-Americans did.

[El Pinko]

180. Mexico is/was no more entitled to those lands than the US...

...they usurped them from the natives just like the US did, and Mexico ceded them to the US and signed the treaty.

[tridim]

17. It's no fun..

Bein' an illegal a-lien.

The word "illegal" -noun bothers me even more. All the RW hate show hosts use it.

[Better Believe It]

18. You're 100% Right

Thanks for the post.

[Johonny]

20. it's no fun being an

Undocumented worker doesn't really work as a song lyric.

According to my dictionary:
Alien is a foreign born resident who has not been naturalized
illegal is not according to or authorized by law.

Illegal alien seems to be a correct definition of the people in question. People that are not naturalized Americans that remain in the country not according to the law. I see no way that using the term is hate speech? I do see how some people are using the term can slowly make the term become part of hate speech.

[earth mom]

22. I disagree. Those people broke the law & are illegally here-they are illegal aliens.

I'm not going to be broad brushed smeared by you for speaking the very obvious truth.

[Bluebear]

23. "Alien" - nice thing to call a human being.

[earth mom]

24. There are Legal Aliens too. It's the governments word choice.

The word "alien" is used all over the U.S. Immigration site: http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis

[Bluebear]

26. I don't like "legal alien" either. I don't care if it's on their website

[earth mom]

28. Sorry, but I'm not going to P.C. about it. People are losing their jobs & homes.

Enough is enough.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3090848

[Bluebear]

31. Losing their homes to what, tomato pickers?

[earth mom]

33. The massive influx of people has lowered wages across the board.

Don't tell me you don't already know that.

EVERYONE knows that in this country.

I'm not blaming people for wanting to come here, and feel that the corporations should be fined and punished for it.

But someone needs to speak up about this because it's wrong to allow it to continue.

So I'm going to continue to speak out on behalf of the LEGAL workers here in this country who are being screwed, because NO ONE is speaking out for them.

BTW-many here on DU agree with me but are too afraid to say what I'm saying. I know this because I've gotten PMs about it.

[cboy4]

47. I don't blame them for wanting to spout Republican hate

speak.

I'm not sure what's worse.

You not being afraid to repeat Republican hate speak.

Or people who hide in the shadows and think Republican hate speak.

[earth mom]

51. Bullshit. I am NOT speaking any hate, so don't put that on me.

So where is YOUR caring and compassion for those who are making less now that wages are have been brought down to the working poor level by the massive influx of workers from south of the border?

Carpenters, roofers, painters, ALL those trades have taken a huge hit as was posted in reply by someone else on this thread.

I refuse to buy into some sort of p.c guilt trip and feel guilty when people who are already here LEGALLY in this country have been given the shaft and now live paycheck to paycheck and can barely hang on to their homes! Do you think what's happening in So. California where people are living in tents is only because of the housing crisis? Hell no, it's not only because of the housing crisis, but because people have had wages slashed and thus been priced out of being able to afford to live there and it's been going on for YEARS. I should know because my husband and I used to live in So California and we were pushed out almost 10 years ago, because wages and rents (forget about owning a house) were horrific even back then! I shudder to think what it's like to live there now! An absolute nightmare, no doubt!

Yeah, your compassion for those already here who have been totally screwed over by this really shows what a compassionate progressive you are. NOT! :eyes:

[cboy4]

58. Oh, so what you're saying is that is makes you feel

better to call people a name (illegal alien) because of the wages that are being brought down.

I'm not surprised to hear about your husband.

The people who use the term "illegal aliens" are, in my experience, generally very angry.

But calling them illegal aliens is not going to help you TheGoldenRule.

You tell me what calling them that is going to do -- besides have people mistake you as a Republican.

[Lance_Boyle]

59. illegal alien is the appropriate legal designation

is it also "name calling" to refer to an incarcerated person as a convict, or to a policeman as an officer?

This is asinine PC nonsense - people who are in this country in violation of immigration law are illegal aliens. It's not a slur, no matter how much the proper term may offend someone's PC sensibilities.

[cboy4]

68. .......

:spray:

Riiiiight Lance.

Calling a policeman an officer is just as awful as calling someone an "illegal alien."

Hey, if you want to call dehumanize people and call them illegal aliens....you go for it.

But you sound like a Republican.

[TCJ70]

72. "Riiiiight Lance."

"Riiiiight Lance.

Calling a policeman an officer is just as awful as calling someone an "illegal alien."

Yeah, both terms are equally awful, as in not awful at all.

[cboy4]

76. Republican hate speak!!

:hi:

[Lance_Boyle]

82. saying a thing is so does not make it so, cboy4

I respect your opinion on this issue, and you are free to refer to illegal aliens in some other way if the term offends you (which it obviously does). But I do not believe your opinion holds any merit beyond being merely your opinion. To castigate others for using the proper legal term is as ridiculous as punishing someone for using the word "niggardly."

[cboy4]

88. Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't have a

problem using the word "niggardly" considering it could easily be mistaken as the actual N-word?

You have to disregard etymology sometimes Lance, and start focusing more on more appropriate synonyms.

See...that's the beauty of the synonym. There are alternatives that are less offensive.

[Lance_Boyle]

89. neither term is offensive - that's the thing.

Some people want to INTERPRET these words as something they are not - namely slurs - to somehow rationalize that they are correct in being offended by them. That is problematic to me. I will not stop using either word simply because someone who doesn't understand its meaning takes offense. And I don't believe that to be rude or insensitive. There are lots of bigger and better things to be worried about than whether or not someone ignorant of a certain term's meaning will be offended by it. I'll not self-censor to kowtow to anyone's ignorance-based or PC-based sense of what is offensive.

[cboy4]

93. You won't alter the way you speak, even though

you could easily be mistaken as a Republican?

That's how the other side talks Lance. "THOSE ILLEGAL ALIENS....."

Hell...even if I wasn't a human rights advocate....being mistaken as a bigoted Republican would the only reason I'd need to come up with a different adjective.

[Lance_Boyle]

98. I'll grant you that.

The term "illegal alien" is used by republicans. It is also used by democrats, and by politically unaffiliated folks like me. More importantly, it is used in the very statutes pertaining to the issue. And those were written by legislatures consisting of democrats, republicans, know-nothings, whigs, and possibly even the occasional socialist like Bernie Sanders. The term is not loaded as you insist it is, and it is perfectly fine and proper to use. My opinion. I 'spose we'll just disagree on this. Fair 'nuff. But don't be surprised if I argue in my defense when someone calls me a racist or a republican based on his/her straining-to-find-offense interpretation of my words.

[alstephenson]

195. Why do you try to minimize the fact that the term is offensive to many?

"straining-to-find-offense" my ass.

[mitchum]

109. Hey, why don't you give your schoolyard guilt trip a rest?

It makes you seem more like a whining and petulant little boy rather than a cboy

[mitchum]

108. I use "niggardly" in its proper context; the IGNORANCE of others is not my concern

[cboy4]

112. I'm not surprised.

:eyes:

[mitchum]

115. If you're not surprised, I guess that means you saw my SAT and GRE verbal scores

words are wonderful things

[cboy4]

118. If I saw your scores, I'd probably call my local

lawmaker and demand we start pouring more money into the United States educational system.

Know what I'm saying?

[mitchum]

122. Perhaps, but someone else would more than likely have to dial the number for you

You really do need to quit this before you're not quite so far behind

[chixydix]

136. I see from your profile you're in Jesusland. That explains a lot.

...

[chixydix]

159. What is ugly is for somebody to appropriate a perfectly good word and demonize it

because it sounds a little bit like some other word. That's not just ugly, it's downright fucking moronic.
I'm sure there are some PC cops around here who'd object to the word 'hoar'.
:eyes:

Some people just can't find enough reasons to be outraged. :eyes:

[cboy4]

168. Yea I know. How dare I attempt to be compassionate.

Take a close look in the "downright fucking moronic" mirror dude.

[chixydix]

190. I think you are desperately in dire need of a BJ

:eyes:

[mitchum]

199. Since he is already so skilled at patting himself on the back...

I imagine that he is also capable of giving himself a BJ

[LanternWaste]

73. Why then do we not refer to...

Why then do we not refer to those who drive 66mph in a 65mph zone as illegal drivers? Why then do we not refer to anyone crossing the street anywhere but a crosswalk as illegal pedestrians?

If I stated as I walked into my office tomorrow morning, "I saw four illegals on my way to work..." I daresay the first reaction of most of my co-workers would be to infer I has seem undocumented workers rather than someone speeding-- why is that?

[Lance_Boyle]

80. can you be a bit more disingenuous?

People who violate the law by speeding are speeders, or, if you prefer, "individuals operating a motor vehicle at an illegal rate of speed." People who jaywalk are jaywalkers. People who are in this country in violation of immigration law are illegal aliens. Some of them are also "undocumented workers," and some are just plain "undocumented," but all are illegal aliens. I don't understand why the proper term to describe a person's legal residency status is to be taken as a slur, except to concern trolls.

[EFerrari]

85. Because it's racist code, that's why.

The Republican southern strategy used "law and order" as code for segregation.

Who can be against "law and order" except concern trolls? People who understand the context.

[LanternWaste]

99. Frankly, I subscribe to the view of Victor Hugo on this...

"don't understand why the proper term to describe a person's legal residency status is to be taken as a slur, except to concern trolls."

Because sometimes concern doesn't emanate from a troll.

Frankly, I subscribe to the view of Victor Hugo on this-- "which is more important to you, imaginary red and blue lines on a map, or human beings?"

Anyways-- I don't really hear people complain about speeders, as a matter of fact most people I know proudly defend speeding on the highway.

Again-- why is there a quick inference to "I saw three illegals this morning" as meaning undocumented workers rather than speeders or jaywalkers? Hence, I think you can perceive the debasing and pejorative context of the phrase.

Try it out... go to a place with a large group of people and state that you recently saw three illegals. What do you want to bet they infer undocumented workers rather than anything else...?


(And screw your implication I'm being disingenuous.)

[alstephenson]

196. It's obvious that you don't understand.

That doesn't make you right.

[alstephenson]

194. So all of your problems are because of the Mexicans?

Oh, pleeeze. You're not being totally screwed by the Mexicans, you're being totally screwed by your government.

[KharmaTrain]

54. Everybody?

Nice broadstroke there. Yep, the companies that willing hire these people for the cheap labor and they surely "pass the savings" on to us. Who cares about human respect or dignity. Always the lowest prices...that's all that counts.

What's wrong is the reason these people feel the need to come here and serve you a cheapie burger or pick up your garbage or sweep your floors. Yep, it's truly a dream job they're taking...and damn 'em for not smiling while they're swabbing the latrines. Damn, that 3.75 an hour here has gotta be worth a million pesos south of the border.

It's time to look at whose the real victims here...it's ALL of us. Yes, "legal" workers are getting screwed...especially if you have a union card. It's not the Mexicans or "aliens" who are causing this, it's the companies that hire them rather than to pay an honest wage and benefits to a union worker. It's also cheaper to exploit the labor in their own home country where labor and environmental laws can be twisted to their advantage.

Personally, I'd hope many of these people would tell us to stick up...pick our own vegetables, clean up our own messes...and then you'll hear a completely different tune.

The "illegal alien" wedge issue is nothing more than repugnican racism...their mothers milk.

[High Plains]

141. EVERYONE doesn't know that--because it isn't true.

Look it up. I did awhile back, but I'm too busy to go do it for you now.

A small negative wage impact on non-high school graduates is what the numbers show.

[El Pinko]

181. WRONG! I'll have to differ here.

I disagree with the OP on the term "illegal alien" and do agree with strong border enforcement to help protect US jobs and wages-

HOWEVER

You cannot make the argument that illegal aliens are the PRIMARY cause of low wages and job growth for the bottom half.


Offshoring of all manufacturing and pro-rich tax policies are MUCH MUCH bigger factors than illegal aliens and they should not be scapegoated for it.

Think about the jobs the illegal aliens take - fry cook, tomato picker, hotel housekeeper. Now these jobs would pay a bit more if it were Americans doing those jobs, but thjey never would have paid anything near what factory jobs do, and offshoring has eliminated about THIRTY MILLION of those.


So I am with the strong-border folks on principle, but it is a MUCH lower priority than ending tax breaks for outsourcing and getting manufacturing BACK INTO THIS COUNTRY.

[cigsandcoffee]

40. Framers, electricians, finishing carpenters, roofers..

Illegals are in every aspect of the construction business, at least in my neck of the woods. And they take plenty of jobs away from legal residents. I didn't even go in to foodservice, housekeeping and building maintenence.

You've obviously got some kind of romantic image of migrant farmworkers living a Mexican version of The Grapes of Wrath. That isn't quite the case.

[mitchum]

204. I think that beautifully and accurately sums it up...

"You've obviously got some kind of romantic image of migrant farmworkers living a Mexican version of The Grapes of Wrath. That isn't quite the case."

Well said

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

205. Bingo!

[sonias]

25. Funny how your board name doesn't match your attitude

Golden Rule = "treat others as you would like to be treated".

Yet you think somehow a human can be illegal. Some people do in fact break laws. Some laws however are bad or enforced with prejudice and unequally.

I'm sorry you've bought into the trap that the GOP set.


Sonia

[earth mom]

30. They are not illegal human beings but illegal aliens. Look on the g'ment website.

And please don't bring my user name into any of it. Read my signature if you need to know why I choose the name. Because attacking the messenger is total b.s.

Btw, I haven't bought into any rethuglican crap. I care what happens to people who are legally here first and foremost.

How would you feel if you lost everything-job and home-and were living in a tent and yet someone who is here illegally has a job and a home? Wouldn't you think they had YOUR home & YOUR job?!

So, Excuse me for caring for the people who are legally here first! Guess that's not compassionate enough for you. :eyes:

[Skittles]

27. "those people"

talk about a broad brush

[earth mom]

32. Those people, the people, people. How else could I have worded it?

:wtf:

Talk about picking something apart to the nth degree! :eyes:

[Skittles]

34. I was taught never to say THOSE PEOPLE

it's condescending

[cboy4]

48. That's because you're not an intolerant Republican who

enjoys engaging in hate speak.

And yes, I understand that "intolerant Republican" is incredible redundant.

[Deja Q]

29. It's also the title of one of my favorite novels!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_Alien_(Doctor_Who)

[Gormy Cuss]

36. "Illegals" is a Republican buzzword.

"Illegal alien" is correct, but not as sensitive as "undocumented worker." Why? Because the illegality is not criminal, and too few Americans understand that "alien" means foreigner, not extra-terrestrial. "Undocumented worker" doesn't describe the children and unemployed people who live here under the radar.
I prefer "illegal alien" because it's accurate and emphasizes the fact that the status denies these people many fundamental rights. YMMV.

[Kitty Herder]

37. I agree. No human being is illegal. nt

[Igel]

45. Try these.

A disqualified runner is a disqualified person who runs. No person is inherently disqualified ... presumably from being a person.

A poor singer is apparently a poor person who sings. Can be. But your parsing leaving no other option: there is no good way of using an adjective-noun phrase for "a person who sings poorly".

A bad marksman is apparently a bad person who shoots. Not a person who shoots badly.

To say say Obama is a bad bowler is first to say that Obama's a bad person--so obviously we can't vote for him--that bowls. It mustn't mean that he's a person who bowls badly. That would be, well, "Republican".

Or would show a bit of good-will in trying to understand what's said in a reasonable way. If that's how you want to define "Republican", feel free.

Notice the ambiguity. When an adjective modifies a noun standing for a person who engages in or has engaged in some action or activity, the adjective can describe the person. But it can also describe the action. The semantics forces what is formally an adjective to actually modify the underlying or implied verb: run, sing, or in the case of 'marksman', the implied verb 'shoot'.

Now, you may not like it. But it's how English works. It takes more than a modicum of ill-will and forced miscomprehension to make it work otherwise ... not that there's any shortage of them when dehumanizing others comes into play.

Just out of curiosity: A "one-time immigrant" or a "former immigrant" ... do you *seriously* think they can only mean "a one-time person who immigrated" or "a former person who immigrated"? And an "ex-felon" ... surely not an "ex-person who was a felon"?

[Kitty Herder]

166. Undocumented worker or undocumented immigrant won't work for you?

Illegal alien has absolutely become a buzzword for Republicans. They use it phrase to inflame racial hatred.

[texasleo]

41. Yes, it's meant to dehumanize people.

[OhioChick]

42. It doesn't bother me one way or another...

My Grandfather referred to himself as an "illegal alien" up until he died and never viewed it as a put-down. :) (Even though he had already become a citizen by that point)

[ihavenobias]

43. It doesn't especially bother me but in order to frame the issue better I like Thom Hartmann's phrase

It's not an illegal alien problem, it's an *illegal employer* problem.

I don't blame the people coming here for work, I blame the powerful vested interests that exploit them for cheap labor (with no benefits, potentially unsafe working conditions and no recourse due to threat of deportation) while driving down wages and benefits for Americans.

It's not that undocumented workers specifically drive down wages, it's just Econ 101: if you increase the labor supply, wages will decrease.

At any rate, far too many progressive get this issue wrong because they assume anyone who thinks illegal employers/undocumented workers are an issue must have xenophobic/racist motives (and it's true that many on the right ARE racist/xenophobic). But while their hearts are in the right place, they often go too far and ignore the real negative impact.

The bottom line is, we should control immigration (legal or otherwise) and only allow enough people in (legally) if our labor supply truly needs it. I agree we can't and shouldn't just deport everyone (who argues for that anyway on the left?), for several reasons. With that said, it's clear the open floodgate approach isn't working.

But why should I argue about this when Thom Hartmann (a brilliant progressive) has already said it better: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm

[EFerrari]

81. Thom is only half right and he does ignore

for the most part the American Latin America policy that brings those workers north in the first place. They weren't born waiting to cross the border.

When you think about it, the distribution of these workers directly correlates to those countries where the US has been manipulating -- Mexico, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua. It's no accident that these people come here more than people from other Latin American countries.

So, much as I like Thom, he doesn't go far enough. :)

[ihavenobias]

97. Well, Thom goes plenty far if you listen to his show

He goes into much more detail and speaks at length. While he could've included that in this article, he probably figured (correctly) that no one would read it.

How often do you people (even those interested in politics) lose interest/not finish or only skim an article rather than read ever last word?

At any rate, as progressives we need to push past the racists and xenophobes and listen to *reasonable and valid* concerns regarding problems created by illegal employers.

[EFerrari]

137. It's not minute detail to say those people come here because

our government f#cks up their democracies. See? I did it in one sentence.

Ignoring this fact is like only using two pieces of framing to hold a family photograph. It is that simple.

If our government didn't do that on behalf of corporate interests, they wouldn't be here.

[ihavenobias]

147. I wouldn't say it's *entirely* our government

But yes, that's a big part of the equation (that Thom discusses).

And NAFTA clearly hurt (overall) Mexico, just as it hurt the US.

[EFerrari]

151. It is nearly entirely the case that our government has done its best

to support corporations over Latin American democracies. NAFTA is only a small part of our much longer history.

It's not a complicated idea. Our government defends big business over workers here and there. And has for the last two hundred years.

[ihavenobias]

155. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, I just fear oversimplifying things

At any rate, I think we both agree it's powerful special interests to blame, and that in the end, we all get screwed.

[EFerrari]

156. We have to get screwed if the corporati are to win.

And that means here, we focus on poor people coming here to work and not on all the money spent in our name driving them out of their homes.

It's a very efficient system, when you think about it.

We screw with their governments and then, we blame them. :shrug:

[El Pinko]

182. You're 100% right that the US is culpable in this to a degree...

...and it's also true that illegal aliens from Latin America have done less harm to our economy than the offshoring of manufacturing jobs to China.

But just because I want to stop offshoring doesn't mean I suddenly want open borders.

The same goes for US/Latin American policy. Fix the policies - amnesty is not a solution.

[cboy4]

46. It's Republican hate speak.

Why wouldn't it bother you?

[OhioChick]

56. I grew up hearing my Grandfather

referring to himself as an illegal alien....it wasn't Republican hate speak back then. My Grandfather considered it to be true and it didn't bother him in the least, so why should it me?

On edit to add: When in fact did it become Republican hate speak? It sure wasn't decades ago.

[cboy4]

64. Who cares whether it wasn't Republican hate speak "back

then?"

It used to be okay to call African Americans "colored people."

Times change OhioChick.

Snap Snap. Time to transcend yourself to the year 2008.

[OhioChick]

101. No need to be smart about it...

Just offered my thoughts on the subject.

Personally, I think that post #55 summed it up in a reasonable manner.

[Toucano]

49. Oh, for the love of god!

While the left argues over the nuances of the language and parses every sentence until it's completely non offensive and devoid of meaning, the right keeps kicking our ass with language that people UNDERSTAND.

Get real.

[cboy4]

50. The right keeps kicking out ass with language people

understand?

How are they kicking our ass by using the hate speak term, "illegal alien?"

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

193. Thats not hate speech

Its a definition in law of a persons status in the us...

They are 1) Aliens a class that includes all immigrants and people not born here... Its *not* degrading to be born in another land.. They are also 2) illegal every moment they are here as an Alien (see 1) they are breaking the law..


--
I remember turning 21 and being teased by my gf who was a couple years older that I was now 'legal' implying of course that before (in the world of drinking) I was illegal...

[democracy1st]

52. Never called anyone a Illegal Alien in my life

and never will

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

55. In the immigration world

of which I am part (alo note that I am a legal alien and define myself as much), the proper legal terminology is "illegal alien." Why? Firstly, because a person who enters the U.S. without inspection is in the U.S. illegally, by definition as codified in U.S. immigration law (note that people from Cuba are exempt from this definition due to the "wet foot/dry foot" policy). Secondly, as someone already explained, 'alien' is a term of latin origin which is not derogatory. I am an alien; I am what I am. Being called an alien does not demean me, nor do I consider it a RW term. I am a human being, just like all people who enter the U.S. without inspection and are, by law, illegal aliens.

But being in this country illegally (that is, without following U.S. immigration laws on the books) is breaking the law. The drug dealer on the corner is not an undocumented pharmacist; he is a drug dealer. His activity is illegal, even if he is a saint of a person who gives out only aspirin and ibuprofen. No one is saying that the person him/herself is evil or unworthy of humanity; but what is the purpose of having immigration laws if the borders (and I include Canada as well, although fewer Canadians come over illegally - but they exist, trust me) are open wide?

And how fair is it to everyone else who patiently stands in the proper line for years and years? It took me nearly 14 years to get a green card. I came so close to returning to Italy because I didn't want to become an illegal alien. Why should someone who came in illegally a year ago get precedence over thousands of people like me (including people from Latin American countries)?

Another point that is sadly forgotten is that parents who come in illegally with their young children are subjecting their own children to a life of misery. Just yesterday, we had a very bright young woman whose parents entered the country illegally. She is very smart, attending an early college type of high school, but she was told all of her studies may be in vain and that college may just be a dream for her, because she is in the country illegally. Unfortunately, her illegal status will prevent her from getting a student visa or any other kind of visa (there is a provision that is known as the 3/10 year bar; if you have resided illegally for over a year you cannot obtain any immigration benefits for 10 years).

[cboy4]

60. Oh come on NYC.....you know it's the combination

of the words "illegal" and "alien" I'm talking about.

Not "alien" alone.

And everything you've explained leads me to believe that you feel people deserve to be called that name, simply because they didn't follow your lead -- a lead that's admirable.

However, I seriously doubt you're here because you're desperate to feed your family like so many Mexicans who come here are.

I'm not defending entering this country illegally per se.

I'm simply saying the bottom line is the term "illegal alien" is used in a bigoted way constantly by the the right wing conservatives, and it solves nothing.

[EFerrari]

61. Whether the term is legalistically correct or not

the term "illegals" is used to dehumanize and demonize Latino undocumented workers.

And unlike Italy, Latin America has been subject to the predations of the American government for hundreds of years with the consequence that hungry people are driven north to survive. So, the comparison is unbalanced, just as your blame of working parents who are trying to feed their children.

[Ordr]

57. Republicans use the word "the", also.

You don't have to agree with their ideology but the term "illegal alien" is valid and accurate.

[cboy4]

62. Dumbest post I've read in months.

"Republicans use the word 'the' also.

Yes Ordr...there's nothing quite as offensive as the word "the" ha?

What could I have possibly been thinking?

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

65. Most code is. n/t

[trotsky]

75. Thank you for sharing the Republican perspective with us. n/t

[EFerrari]

63. Btw, I found out yesterday that Cesar Chavez was NOT against undocumented workers

which is another RW meme that is flung around.

Dolores Huerta who cofounded the Farm Workers Union with him was interviewed by Amy Goodman. When asked specifically about this issue, Huerta reminded Amy that the Union was against STRIKEBREAKERS, not workers. And that the union had been instrumental in helping many workers obtain a normalized legal status.

[El Pinko]

171. But illegal aliens are de facto strikebreakers/scabs no matter how you look at it.

Their presence in the millions weakens the bargaining potition of all legal and US citizen lower-wage workers and puts downward pressure on wages.

Not only did Chavez and Huerta support restrictions on immigration via the UFW, they even reported illegal aliens who were interfering with unionizing efforts.

There is BROAD support for strong border policies in organized labor circles.

I know UFW supported the Amnesty in 1986, and I disagreed with that (and any other amnesties since) but I still hold Chavez in the highest regard.

I suppose I can disagree on such points and still appreciate his outstanding accomplishments for the working people of California...

[DangerDave921]

66. Sorry but . . .

You're really engaging in more feeling than thinking. So you don't like the sound of the phrase illegal? Or is it alien? Words have meanings. Changing terminology might make you feel good but doesn't affect the issue at all. OK, use your term. What do we do about it?

Undocumented worker is a silly term, and doesn't convey the truth of the situation which is: An alien who is here illegally.

[cboy4]

69. What do we do about it? -- What does that have to do with

how we refer to these people?

Are you telling me that we can't come up with solutions without calling them "illegal aliens?"

Illegal aliens is a Republican slur used to generate rabid emotion and unreasonable hate.

And I think you know that.

[DangerDave921]

71. My point is . . . .

That changing terminology alone does not in any way get us closer to any solution to the situation.

And no, I don't think the term is designed to generate hate. I think it's a term to describe those who are aliens and who are here illegally. It's pretty simple and straightforward actually. Words have meanings. What does undocumented worker mean? That doesn't convey anything about whether the person is an alien or not, and it doesn't say anything about whether they're here legally or not. And what about illegal aliens who aren't working? What do we call them?

[cboy4]

74. DangerDave, changing terminology in the name of

humanity is not a bad thing.

We don't call people "retarded" or "handicapped" anymore.

We don't call people a lot of things anymore, because it's not decent.

Calling desperate Mexicans illegal aliens does not "get us closer to any solution to the situation."

And I realize you don't think the term is used to generate hate.

I'm telling you it is Republican hate speak.

It's a bigoted word designed to generate hate in order to get people angry enough to help make sure something is done to focus on the border.



on edit....typo

[EFerrari]

77. You'd think "liberals" would get this right away.

:)

[cboy4]

79. Unless they're.....

Shhhhhh.

;)

[DangerDave921]

78. what?

Are you saying illegal immigrants are on par with retarded or handicapped people? That's a weird thing to say.

Look, I see that you want to make these illegal immigrants feel better, or make people more sympathetic to their plight. But finding a new term for them that is more warm and fuzzy is an exercise in surface appearance only. And it's not a slur to call someone an illegal immigrant (a phrase I think is better than alien actually) because that's what they are.

You obviously want to minimize that they're here illegally. Why is that?

[cboy4]

83. This has nothing to do with me wanting to "minimize

that they're here illegally" and everything to do with the fact I don't approve of sounding like an intolerant Republican, foaming at the mouth.

You do understand that there are certain responsibilities that come with classifying yourself as a liberal or a progressive, and not a conservative, right?

Calling them undocumented workers is suffice. Everyone with a high school diploma should be smart enough to understand exactly what it means.

[DangerDave921]

100. I disagree

You're making a false assumption by saying that only intolerant Repub's would use the phrase illegal immigrant. That's just silly. I'm a Dem, and I am not in favor of wide-open illegal immigration. Should I go change my party affiliation?

OK -- so if everyone knows what "undocumented worker" really means, why are you so eager to change the term? Doesn't everyone know what "illegal immigrant" means? They're immigrants and they are illegal. Why can't we point that out? How is that degrading?

Hey, and if you really want to feel good, let's change the term to "puppies." Everyone likes puppies.

[cboy4]

106. Yea, everyone knows what "illegal immigrant" means, but

that's not the term I discussed in my OP, is it?

I'm talking about "illegal alien."

I'm not saying you should change your affiliation.

I'm saying you sound like someone from the other "affiliation" when you use that description.

I'm also not saying "only" intolerant Republicans use the phrase .. there are plenty of intolerant people in the Democratic Party.

[mitchum]

126. Actually, we sp ed professionals do refer to people as having mental retardation...

or being handicapped by physical obstructions and/or a lack of accommodations.
The problem with the use of those terms in the layman's world arose when those terms were/are used as slurs and pejoratives by the ignorant.
Once again, we are back to the ignorant and their lack of understanding of the meaning of terms.
Hmmm...

[El Pinko]

175. "Handicapped" is still quite acceptable in almost all social circles.

"Retarded" is not a nice expression, I agree, but handicapped is not and has never been derisive.

On the downside, there are a lot of people who use expressions like "f*cktard" or whatever other "-tard" combination without even thinking of it.



"I'm telling you it is Republican hate speak."


You act like only republicans are concerned about the number of illegals. Vast majorities in both parties are concerned about it, but for different reasons.

Republican VOTERS (republican POLITICIANS have always supported unlimited flows of illegal alien cheap labor - Bush Sr also increased the number of LEGAL immigrants to an unprecedented ONE MILLION per year) are upset because hearing Spanish in public scares them, because their towns are "being overrun with brown people", because they are looking for scapegoats for problems that are ALSO being caused by GOP economic policies like tax breaks for the rich & companies that offshore.

Democratic voters are concerned about illegal immigration because it puts downward pressure on lower-end wages, and it puts an undue burden on schools and the public health system, among other reasons.

But few Americans want uncontrolled immigration. In survey after survey, majorities of even hispanic Americans support strong immigration enforcement.

[alstephenson]

210. Being offended by the term "illegal alien"...

does not mean that one is not interested in immigration reform.

[El Pinko]

221. What is "immigration reform"?

To me, it means much more thorough enforcement of immigration laws. To others, it means blanket amnesties and work permit programs.

Both parties have reached tacit agreement to allow unimpeded illegal immigration while pretending to enforce the border, this despite the opposition of the majority of voters in both parties.


To say that wanting tougher immigration laws is a republican position is offensive, and untrue.


Both parties' leaders love illegal immigration while pretending to denounce it, while both parties' voters hate it.


No true progressive is EVER in favor of cheap labor policies.

[El Pinko]

184. "how we refer to these people?"

"how we refer to these people?" - I just read several post up that "those people" was demeaning and bad.

But "these people" is okay?


See how silly this sort of thing gets?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

67. I think that "alien" is suspect, but omitting the word "Illegal" borders on Newspeak

"Illegal immigrants" is I think the best phrasing.

The issue is not that people immigrate without proper documentation, but that they immigrate in clear defiance of the law. Referring to "undocumented workers" is, I think, not a good choice of phrase, because it makes it clear to the listener that one is using language to obscure and obfuscate rather than to illuminate, and that one is trying to "bait-and-switch" their attention away from the issue, rather than confronting it.

"Alien", on the other hand, is, I think, a needlessly emotive word. "Illegal immigrant" makes it clear that it is the action of immigration that the person is guilty of that is illegal, and it doesn't conjure up images of little green men from Mars.

[guitar man]

70. sounds good to me

"wage depression facilitators" sounds like a much more sophisticated title. :D

[-..__...]

84. The concern/anguish is "politically incorrect" tripe.

The observation that a person can't be "illegal" and that "alien" conjures up images of visitors from another world is nonsense also.

Words, terminology, grammar, etc evolve and take on new and/or different meanings as society and generations come and go.

"Illegal alien" is a perfectly acceptable part of our language today as is any other slang or reinterpretation that was deemed unacceptable or incorrect in the past and has found modern day usage.

[bunkerbuster1]

91. It's perfectly acceptable if you like carrying Gooper water.

If you want those fuckheads to stop winning national elections, you'll stop.

[EFerrari]

95. So, are you also fine with "those people"?

Those people ARE those people, after all.

What about "negroes"? There's an argument to be made there, too, with respect to melanin.

Get back to me when "illegal alien" means a blue eyed blond Canadian.

[Freddie Stubbs]

86. Is law-breaking immigrant ok?

:shrug:

[bunkerbuster1]

92. Calling them "undocumented" serves two important purposes:

1) humanizes the human being being spoken about, and

2) really pisses off the Freepigs.

Both are Good Things.

[cboy4]

94. .....

[marmar]

87. De acuerdo, cboy......I hate that term.

It's reeks of intolerance and "us v them"-ism. Being human isn't illegal.

[bunkerbuster1]

90. Totally agree. the use of "illegal" as a noun in particular sticks in my craw.

Bigoted, stupid, and oh so Republican.

I correct people when I can, and I get a lot of shit for it.

[cboy4]

96. I get a lot of shit for it also bunkerbuster1 -- as you can see.

But that's okay. I won't stop correcting because it's the right thing to do.

And good for your views. :thumbsup:

[durutti]

102. I think just "illegals" bothers me most. n/t

[cboy4]

104. You're right....I think that is worse.

THOSE ILLEGALS!

Ughhh. :eyes:

[Throd]

103. Fine, I'll use "people who should be deported."

[alstephenson]

211. Wow. That's really progressive thinking.

Sheesh.

[mitchum]

105. Declaring that "Illegal Alien is a Republican buzzword" is a simplistic propaganda device...

sorry, but you are gonna have to try A LOT harder than that

[cboy4]

107. I don't blame you for not wanting to be compared to

intolerant Republicans.

Perhaps you need to evaluate why you think it's so important to use that phrase.

[mitchum]

110. Oh....maybe because the term accurately describes the legal status of those people?

See, I said "people"
No attempt at dehumanizing on my part

[cboy4]

113. Uh huh.

:thumbsdown:

[mitchum]

116. Well, I take your "uh huh" as an agreement...

or is it a whining, juvenile "did so did so" attempt at dismissive wit?
And I am being very generous with my use of the word "wit"

[cboy4]

117. You're quite the scholar aren't you mitchum?

Since you don't seem especially, mmmm, shall we say on the ball -- calling you a scholar is what's called: "sarcasm."

I'd hate for you to go telling a bunch of people today that someone called you a scholar, only to have them laugh at you.

See how nice I am mitchum to fill you in on the joke?

[mitchum]

124. It doesn't take a scholar to see through your threadbare attempt to use...

"Ohmigod, I don't want anyone to think I'm a republican if I use accurate terminology to describe illegal aliens!" as a means of redefining terms in order to sell your agenda.
C'mon, the hacks that sell dog food and beer do it more deftly than you.

[EFerrari]

139. The hacks that sell dog food don't go to the hate wing for their talking points.

Well done, you've missed the entire point of code working in context. And attacking the OP doesn't cover the fact that you have.

[mitchum]

173. Well, I take that it that you have never seen Uberhund brand dog food...

with their slogan "Today Your Pooch, Tomorrow The World"

[alstephenson]

213. How about "ohmigod, I don't want anyone to think I'm.....

a jerk just because I am."

[mitchum]

200. I'm obviously smarter than you, you pathetic and sanctimonious little twit

[Romulox]

111. Moreover, it doesn't change a THING about the underlying problem

The problem isn't hurt feelings, it's crushing poverty and a war on working people both here and in Mexico.

[TCJ70]

114. Do you have a problem with "legal alien"? n/t

[cboy4]

119. No. Because it's not used as Republican hate speak.

Please keep your easy questions coming!

[TCJ70]

121. "Illegal Alien" is the opposite of...

..."Legal Alien". Do you think it's possible that even republicans can think this way without trying to be hateful?

[cboy4]

125. No.

What else do yo have for me?

[TCJ70]

129. That's all.

I'm done here. You obviously have you opinion and you're welcome to it.

[BlooInBloo]

120. You can think it is all you want. It just ain't so...

... What I might agree with however is the idea that republicans took an old unobjectionable piece of language and distorted it into something mean. Not so different from "liberal".

[EFerrari]

133. It's so 'way beyond mean. What term do the hate sites use?

That's always a good measure.

In itself, it might have once meant something neutral. It doesn't any more.

That term is on a fair way to being a cognate of the N word, if it isn't already.

[BlooInBloo]

164. hahaha - it's got a looooong way to go before it get there....

... But I won't deny that it's theoretically possible. EDIT: Certainly the intent of many current users of the term isn't far away.

But if "mean" is your issue, substitute whatever superlative you like.

[alstephenson]

215. Here you go! Just take a guess at what term the hate sites use.....

http://rense.com/general79/seniors.htm

[EFerrari]

220. Exactly. n/t

[Zavulon]

128. I don't think it's hate speech at all, and I will continue to use the term.

I will never use "undocumented," especially since so many ARE actually documented in one way or another and are here illegally.

What would happen if I went to a bank and made an "undocumented" withdrawal? Don't call it illegal, because money can't be illegal unless it's counterfeit. :rofl:

You call it "hate speech," I call it the truth. They're here illegally and no amount of flowery wording is going to make me any happier about that.

[EFerrari]

134. If you made an "undocumented withdrawal" you'd be a felon.

Immigration law isn't criminal law and undocumented workers are not felons, no matter how much you personally dislike them. They are undocumented.

It's interesting the way so many posters to this thread conflate RW frames with truth.

[Zavulon]

206. Their presence is still a violation of the law, and

a lot of them pay no tax except for sales tax. They depress wages and take jobs that people here legally should be having (and we all know they're not all minimum wage jobs), they use up social services while here illegally, and people here legally have to pay for it.

It's interesting the way so many posters on DU are willing to excuse illegal behavior, cover it up with terms like "undocumented workers" (I wasn't aware every illegal had a job) and then accuse people who still use the term "illegal" of being mindless dupes who are simply being taken for a ride by the Republican hypnosis machine. A lot of people on both sides of the political coin are tired of being overrun by illegals. If this were actually some form of Republican-speak, then this is one area in which I'd say they got it right. By legal definition they're aliens, and they're here illegally, and to try to cover some supposedly misleading term with a misleading term is a strategy that hasn't worked and isn't about to. However, if you're more comfortable with that term, you're obviously free to use it.

[PaulaFarrell]

131. My husband was an illegal alien

He was English, so not so much with the brown skin, but still an illegal. I don't get your issue. IT's an accirate description of a legal status. Aee we supposed to stop using every word Republicans use?

[cboy4]

169. Are we supposed to stop using every word Republicans

use?

Nope.

Only the ones that are hateful and bigoted -- and that's just for starters.

[alstephenson]

216. Seems so simple, doesn't it???

You've certainly generated some heated discussion! Good for you. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Canuckistanian]

132. You can't call someone "illegal" if they haven't been convicted

"Presumed innocent until proven guilty" is what American law is based on, is it not?

And anyways, why do they label a person illegal?

Shouldn't their acts be considered illegal?

[chixydix]

135. No problem. Nothing should be illegal.

How simple the world would be.;-)

[Fountain79]

140. Let's examine the words.....

illegal-forbidden by law or statute

alien-a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization

So a person who is a residet born or belonging o anther counry who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization, and who has broken the law by not going through the proper channels or overstaying their visa shouldn't be called the exact word that describes them?

PC is funny sometimes.

[EFerrari]

142. For the 25th time. you can't parse code without the context.

You haven't read this thread, have you?

[Fountain79]

143. I've read your statement....really don't have the time or internet

connection to read every one of the statements. You choose to not use a word that perfectly describes someone who is in the United States against the law. I get that, I don't agree with it and I think you are making an issue that something that isn't an issue.(Not the ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION issue,but rather what words we choose to use to describe people who are in this country ILLEGALLY.

[EFerrari]

148. And so you have avoided the fact that you compared these workers

to felons inaccurately. Okay.

Use whatever term you like. The words you use mark YOU.

[Fountain79]

153. Yeah it marks me....It marks me as a person who lives in reality....

and I know many illegal aliens, they are good people. Still doesn't change the fact that they broke the law. They are seeking employment when they have not been given clearance by our government to be in the United States. They aren't felons, but they are still doing something that is illegal.

[EFerrari]

154. So now you admit your comparison was over the top --

without admitting it? Okay.

What do you think we should call a government that systematically kills democracy in other countries to force people out of their homes and north for slave wages? That wages proxy wars, that assassinates liberal, progressive leaders, that tries to shore up corporate interests no matter how many workers die or are displaced?

You call the refugees "illegal aliens". They and their families could very accurately call our government assassins, saboteurs, torturers and imperialists.

Literalism goes both ways.

[TCJ70]

144. Give some context you don't like.

The term illegal aliens is fine...it's what comes after it that reveals what people are thinking most times.

[EFerrari]

146. Definitely. The use of that term is revealing.

I don't know any progressives that use it. :)

[TCJ70]

150. I don't have a problem with the term "illegal aliens"

I think it's accurate. Take this sentence for example:

"Illegal aliens are (insert some strange, obviously false fact here)" and you have an offensive statement. There are plenty of uses for the term, however, that are not offensive.

[EFerrari]

152. You're not bringing all your experience to bear

and that is, the xenopbobes and the bigots in our culture are promoting this term.

It's not neutral. No reasonable person could argue that it is.

[El Pinko]

161. They are in the US illegally, they are not of this country, hence "illegal alien"

I have no problem with that term, or with blanket deportations, or with companies being forced to pay a decent wage for a day's work so that people who are legally in this country can afford to do the work.

Lots of democrats and progressives and LABOR LEFTISTS use "illegal immigrant" because it is an accurate and non-hatespeak word.

I dislike those who would scapegoat Mexicans, and I think the brunt of the penalties should be on the employers, but oh yes, I do think the border MUST be enforced if workers in the lower half of the wage scale are ever to have any bargaining power. Having millions of people who will work for peanuts works in the favor of the rich and greedy who refuse to pay a decent day's wage for a day's work.

I'm not going apeshit - you can call illegal aliens whatever you want. Call them "ultra-efficient outsourced task specialists" if you want. Call them "green-card-challenged consultants" for all I care. They're still illegal aliens. Saying that this term is tantamount to "wetback" or some other bona fide hate term is an insult to the MAJORITY of democrats who want the borders and laws enforced.

[cboy4]

167. I also think people who use the Republican hate speak

description "illegal aliens" could very well have self esteem issues.

I don't think people who are confident feel the need to use hurtful language.

At any rate, you may not have gone "apeshit," but your explanation sounds like a Republican talking point.

Sorry.

[El Pinko]

170. You know, cboy4, an awful lot of your posts are just like this one...

You're more than entitled to your opinion about whether or not the expression "illegal alien" is acceptable or not.

I don't have a problem with it per se.

But of the posts I've seen from you, it seems like about half of them are you indignantly bitching about how so many DUers and/or liberals fail to be sensitive or PC enough to suit your particular sensibilities.

Apparently there are all of these liberals out there who laughed their asses off about the California fires, or at Anna Nicole, or failed to be PC enough about this or that.


I personally don't identify as a democrat and would never deign to speak for all of them, or all of my fellow labor leftists. I vote to the best of my abilities to support candidates who will

1. promote a society where the gap between rich and poor is less than it is today

2. support all working people's right to a decent wage for a day's work

3. support the right of working people to bargain collectively (which is severely undermined by the presence of vast pools of cheap, illegal labor)

4. support a decent social safety net for those who cannot work for whatever reason.

5. support progressive taxation (the rich pay a higher percentage of income than the poor in taxes)

6. oppose privatization of all commodities that are or should be a part of the commons (national parks, health care, broadcast airwaves, municipal water supplies, etc.)

7. keep religion OUT of the public schools and OUT of the law books

8. protect equal rights of all people regarless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion



...pretty much in that order. In other words, my PRIMARY concern is that poor and working class people are able to SURVIVE, because that's literally what we're talking about. a cut in food stamps or school lunch or medicaid would result in a quantifiable number of DEATHS. You may think that some people's way of talking is hurtful, but it is not a life or death issue, IMO.

And I grew up in El Paso, TX which is 80% Mexican. I find it laughable how people in other parts of the country are so upset to suddenly have a few Mexicans around. This is the culture I grew up immersed in, and I am quite comfortable with it, and guess what? Most (legal) Mexicans/Mexican-Americans here in El Paso support border enforcement just as much as anyone else. And nobody here gets hung up on the absolutely trivial difference between "undocumented worker" and "illegal immigrant".

I guess my point is that there are a lot of people who would agree with you on given candidates and policies, but who really are not interested in tiptoeing on eggshells around you when it comes to expressing themselves.


Why do you keep posting these periodic confrontational challenges, like you're positioning youself as the arbiter of who the "good" progressives are vs. the "bad ones? If people basically agree with you on the fundamentals of the issues, why keep coming out with these dictatorial decrees about what basically boils down to symbolism? Let's be honest, if everyone in America stopped using the words "illegal immigrant" from now on, NOBODY's life would be improved, not one bit. Not the illegals' lives, not the American workers' lives, nobody's. Well, except for the language police like yourself. I suppose it would make your day.

Anyway, you do what you want. Focus your anger on liberals and lefties who fail to meet your standards of sensitivity and decorum. It's not like there's an army of right-wing thugs trying to wreck the constitution and impoverish the majority for the benefit of the wealthy few or anything. :sarcasm:

Hell, I'm sure if you get together enough of your pals you can probably get me banned, and I'll be just fine and keep voting and being active in my own way. You'll have accomplished nothing except to make the voices here fewer and more homogenous.

And thanks for the concern, but my self-esteem is just fine. I'm a leftist because of genuine concern and empathy because I know what it is to work my ass off and struggle to raise a family on a pittance, it's not because of privileged liberal guilt.

I came from nothing and I have nothing, so my sympathies lie with those who have nothing. And that includes the illegal aliens. Although I favor deportation on principle, they should be treated well during the process, and the US government should be putting MASSIVE pressure on the Mexican government to address its massive income inequities which are the main reason for the swarms of economic refugees coming across the border. I hate people that scapegoat the illegals because they do work extremely hard and are just trying to provide a better life for their families. The way wealthy American business owners and homemakers exploit them for cheap labor is disgraceful.

[cboy4]

174. It's true. I have a problem with people like you who seemingly

lack compassion...and then pounce on people who display it.

And it would be one thing if what I advocate in all of the threads/posts you have problems with are simply to suit my "particular sensibilities."

But you know full well that I'm far from alone.

Yea, I get criticized/attacked by people like you who don't care about other people's feelings.

But that's okay.

Such is the price of speaking out in the name of humanity.

As for getting you banned....sure, I could craft a way to corner you into your own demise.

You walk a very fine line, as you know -- but I have no interest.

I've not seen anything that warrants alerts/action at this point.

I'm interested (for the most part) in learning why people think the way they do, so I welcome the conversation as long as it doesn't become overly hateful.

I think the eight points you listed are excellent.

But so much of what you believe is nullified by the fact you don't seem to care about hurting feelings:

Empathy. Compassion. Understanding. Sympathy.

These are emotions that should go hand in hand with those eight points.

You should mirror them. But there's a disconnect for some reason. A contradictory.

And it makes no sense.

[El Pinko]

177. ...

"But so much of what you believe is nullified by the fact you don't seem to care about hurting feelings"


It's not that I don't care about them. I just care about them a lot less than basic survival issues, which is where I am and where a lot of other people are right now.


Let's put it another way, I'd rather somebody endure hearing what you call a slur and go home to a hot meal than to be referred to by some "improved" version of the same word and go to bed hungry.

This kind of symbolism is bullshit designed to make rich liberals feel good about themselves while accomplishing absolutely NOTHING for the people it's supposed to benefit.


Look at all the passion you've put into this whole topic about a WORD.



If you care so much about illegal aliens/undocumented workers/the green-card-challenged, why not put your efforts into either getting them amnesty here or pressing the Mexican government to take better care of its own people?

At least that I can respect. You can't eat fucking symbolism.





"you walk a fine line and you know it"

:eyes:

Whatever. I pretty much say what I think. I don't go out of my way to try and offend what I see as the moderate latte-liberal majority here, but I make no bones about the fact that I am not one of them.

[mitchum]

203. Oh, you do flatter yourself, cboy...

"sure, I could craft a way to corner you into your own demise"
BWAHAHAHAHA!
What with? Your cunning?
I have seen little evidence of that.
I surmise that your COMPULSION to appear more compassionate than thou is rooted in a deep-seated fear that...just maybe...you suspect that you are not quite the oh-so-compassionate person you would like the world to see.

[Clovis Sangrail]

185. but aren't *you validating that hate speak?

You've accepted that the term, which is correct by definition, is abhorant.
This is exactly the association that RW demagogues want people to have.

[Solon]

172. OK, now I see this thread, and now I know what you mean by freepers...

Jesus fucking Christ people! Get a grip, when you are in a situation where you can't find a job because of outsourcing, are driven off your land by American Agricorps, and wages are falling in your nation, mostly because of NAFTA and the WTO along with a shitload of bilateral agreements that you had no say over because your nation was run, for 70 years, by a corrupt political party, wouldn't you flee to anyplace where you can find a job, irrespective of lines in the sand?

[AlertLurker]

178. You can say it's hate speech all you want.

It's not going to stop them from using the term, and it's not going to stop the influx - whatever you want to call them.

I lived in Texas for two years. Believe me - "illegal alien" is quite possibly the MILDEST term you would ever hear from Texas RW'ers as a descriptor, there...

[BlooInBloo]

183. Just like I refuse to give racists and idiots the word "liberal", so I refuse to give them other...

... intrinsically unobjectionable bits of language. You can capitulate to the racists and idiots if you want to, but then you're part of making America a stupider country.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

191. Alien is a *common* word which

in and of itself is not negative...

People can be alienated from family, The term alien has been used to describe non native born residents for centuries. Its grammatically appropriate..

[Kajsa]

197. I agree, cboy4,

There is something very wrong with referring to
a fellow human being as being an " illegal".
It is both offensive and incorrect.

Illegal is an adjective, it is NOT a noun!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illegal

Undocumented worker is the term I've used, also.

:D :pals: :yourock:

[dysfunctional press]

207. but- you just used it in your subject line... seems kind of disingenuous.

nt

[EFerrari]

209. Yesterday Chertoff confirmed that over 500K immigrants

will have their citizenship status DELAYED until after the election.

Anyone see a pattern here? :)

Senators blast Chertoff on citizenship delays
By EUNICE MOSCOSO
Wednesday, April 02, 2008

WASHINGTON — Democratic senators blasted the nation's top homeland security official Wednesday for a backlog in citizenship applications that could keep hundreds of thousands from voting in the 2008 election.

Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., told Homeland Secretary Michael Chertoff that he was "outraged" at the backlog, which is now 13-15 months long.

"What can you tell individuals who play by the rules, when you have an enormous amount of individuals who want to be part of the American dream, but who are going to be left outside of the system," he said, at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing.

Kennedy said that 580,000 people who applied for citizenship in time to vote will be denied that chance because of the delays.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/shared/news/CHERTOFF_SENATE03_AUS.html?cxntlid=inform_artr

edit: accuracy