Bill Would Require Parents To Volunteer At Schools (Cleveland)

[OhioChick]

POSTED: 5:37 pm EDT April 1, 2008
UPDATED: 7:04 pm EDT April 1, 2008

CLEVELAND -- It's no secret that schools need volunteers in order to do more for students, but one proposed law would make it a requirement for parents to volunteer at their child's school.

Parent Darlene Boyd has been volunteering at her grandchildren's school for six years. If the state legislature passes house bill 519, she'll have a lot of company.

The bill would require all parents to volunteer 13 hours each school year, either in the lunchroom, chaperoning field trips, or wherever the district needs help.

Research shows parents involvement leads to student success, but Cleveland schools CEO Eugene Sanders said volunteerism is almost impossible to legislate.

"If there's a way to encourage it, create incentives -- that's the better way. The difficulty is what are your options to address it if it doesn't occur? Your legal options are limited in that kind of setting," said Sanders.

The bill's incentive is a $100 fine for parents who don't fulfill the requirement.

Franklin D. Roosevelt Academy Principal Sam Vawters said he can always use more parent volunteers, but he doesn't think that's the way to do it.

And Boyd agrees: "I wouldn't want anyone to be forced to come here. Either you want to be here or you don't."

According to the bill, if a parent doesn't fulfill the requirement and refuses to pay the fine, the money would be taken out of the parent's state tax refund.

http://www.newsnet5.com/education/15765751/detail.html

I have mixed feelings on this issue. I volunteered and was a "room parent" from time to time, however you can't force people to do what they don't want to do.....especially fining them if they don't comply. Plus....Cleveland has such a high umemployment rate and many people are working several jobs to just "get by." Where would they find the time and should they be punished through fines for not volunteering? Your thoughts?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. If it's required, then they aren't volunteers, are they?

What a terrible idea.

[Mind_your_head]

8. My children's school calls it "mandatory volunteerism" and when I pointed

out how Orwellian that sounded/is....just wouldn't admit it.

[YvonneCa]

67. They actually called it ...

...that? That is so funny! :7

[bemildred]

66. Indeed. Sounds like forced labor to me. nt

[slackmaster]

121. I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around that one too, ocelot

Sounds more like compulsory unpaid public service to me.

[elleng]

2. Kids LOVE their families to participate in their school's events.

It give kids more incentive to participate themselves; that is, to take school work seriously.

[Fumesucker]

14. Some kids love it..

Others are deathly ashamed of their parents..

Maybe not a lot, but some are.

And I can't say I blame them.

[Firespirit]

48. I don't bloody think so

I went through enough hell as a liberal kid from a liberal family in an 80 percent Republican community. Please see my post downthread. The last thing I would've wanted would be to have to obey ignorant right-wing fundy parents who were "volunteering" at school.

I was academically number 1 in my class until I finally had it and dropped out, incidentally.

[elleng]

61. 'obey ignorant right-wing fundy parents '

You're assuming a lot; volunteering probably doesn't mean acting as teacher in classrooms, but rather providing the school with various services they're in need of.

[Firespirit]

64. You don't think the parents are given disciplinary authority over kids?

Chaperones for field trips were always parent volunteers, but kids had to do what they said.

I can't imagine that the school would have a bunch of adults on campus to whom the kids could just say and do what they wanted.

[elleng]

68. Yes, of course,

if they're in that type of service; many won't be.

AND of done properly, the discipline will be the same kind the school uses.

[Firespirit]

69. That would mean being hateful to a 5-year-old girl until she ran crying

out of her classroom and into the school parking lot, then calling her (and my) mother to come pick her up because she had been suspended for it.

Why were they picking on her? Why, because her parents and older sister were writing LTEs and going on TV to protest stupid policies and the teaching of RW propaganda in place of science and history.

[elleng]

73. Then you belong in private school,

where there's more of an opportunity to be heard.

Kids have suffered because of their parents behavior forever, and parents should be aware of it and tailor their behavior accordingly, IMO.

[Firespirit]

75. Uh I'm a college graduate

I speak of events that occurred 9 years ago.

The only private schools available were religious ex cept for one, which was a white secular school founded after integration for the racist parents, and remains such to this day. No thanks.

Kids have suffered because of their parents behavior forever, and parents should be aware of it and tailor their behavior accordingly, IMO.

You do realize we are talking about state employees harassing a little girl until she ran into a PARKING LOT, putting her life in danger, not even attempting to get her, because her parents and I (her sister) were speaking out against right-wing propaganda being taught in class? But we should've just shut up, huh, because assholes might decide to terrorize an innocent child.

Disgusting.

[elleng]

77. I'm a parent of 2 young adult daughters,

who we sent to private and parochial schools because of lack of good schools in DC; we found parochial schools that are not offensive to agnostic and non-observant parents.

Where is it that you had this experience?

[Firespirit]

82. Bible Belt. Deep South.

Also consider this. It happened after I left, but that's the mentality of the area.

Edit to say, I knew that I could suffer repercussions from being vocal, but I was 16, and I accepted that risk. It's completely out of line for a teacher, who is the principal's daughter, to bully a 5-year-old by telling her that "if she misbehaved then she could be taken away from her parents." The county courts were also stacked with in-laws and relatives of school officials, so while that wasn't likely, it's conceivable that the teacher could get it in her head that such a thing could be done.

[elleng]

83. You knew it was wrong,

and you were there for the 5 year old. But could you 'accept the risk' for her? I don't think so.

[Firespirit]

85. This is a fine example of blame-shifting

What happened to my sister is not my fault or our parents' fault. It is the fault of a group of mostly interrelated right-wing fundamentalists with a severe authoritarian streak, who think it's acceptable to take out their hate for the parents on a child.

By even SUGGESTING that what happened to her was the fault of her own family for "putting her at risk," or that we were negligent toward her by daring to be involved in community issues, you are excusing actions that are inexcusable. She wasn't taken to a protest where she could have come in contact with tear gas, or anything similar. She was sent to school, for God's sake. This is on the same level as a story from a few years back about a Jewish family displaying a menorah in their window and getting death threats and vandalism to their house. I guess they were being irresponsible and should've abrogated their rights because of thugs who would break the law to intimidate them.

No matter WHAT the parents and sister may have said, it's not acceptable for a teacher to bully a kindergartener, threaten to have her taken away from her family, let her run into a parking lot in tears, and tell the mother to come and get her out of the lot.

[elleng]

87. I agree that

'it's not acceptable for a teacher to bully a kindergartener, threaten to have her taken away from her family, let her run into a parking lot in tears, and tell the mother to come and get her out of the lot,' and if such a thing happened where I live, the entire school community would be up in arms, public, private and parochial.

But it didn't happen here, it happened in the 'Bible belt deep south,' as you said.

Very sorry to say this, but it was family's 'fault.' AND if I lived where the Jewish family did, I sure wouldn't put my menorah in the window. Its just common sense.

[Daemonaquila]

98. That's a foul attitude

"AND if I lived where the Jewish family did, I sure wouldn't put my menorah in the window. Its just common sense."

That's both a bigoted and cowardly attitude. When a person has to worry about putting a menorah (or a pentacle, or a rainbow flag, etc.) out, the answer is to put it out and bring change to the community. People of good conscience should be supporting that "outsider" against the oppressors in the community, not telling them to hide who they are. Suggesting they hide their identity is disgusting, not "common sense."

[elleng]

105. I am Jewish,

and I have no intention to make me or my family targets for bigots; that is how I choose to deal with such matters.

I do not choose to live in areas where such community attitudes are likely, and whenever such matters come up in areas near where I live or work, I join those who address them.

Bigotted and cowardly, I do not think so.

[TommyO]

99. My god, you really are blaming the victims in this case

What is wrong with you?

[elleng]

107. The 'VICTIMS' in this case

was a 5 year old girl whose family chose to make political statements in such a way that the school, and perhaps the community, would come down against her. I would NOT put my children in such jeopardy; I would have sought different means to address what I thought were wrong with the curriculum.

[TommyO]

114. You're still blaming the victims

Not the people who inflicted the harm.

[elleng]

120. There was ONE victim here,

a 5 year old girl whose family chose to take issue with the school in a way the school found unacceptable.

Firespirit said, at post 82: 'I knew that I could suffer repercussions from being vocal, but I was 16, and I accepted that risk. It's completely out of line for a teacher, who is the principal's daughter, to bully a 5-year-old. . .'

[goddess40]

106. I'm with you firespirit - I won't give up my right to free speech

to right wing bullies.

[elleng]

108. Nor do I give up my right to 'free speech.'

My children's rights to peaceable lives and educations, however, are higher priorities to me.

[seabeyond]

111. my kids in private christian in texas, public in texas, we always disagree and NEVER

have had to duke it out with teachers parents ministers or anyone else. we have ALWAYS and will continue to consistantly speak out against so much of what we dont agree with this area. and NEVER has it been reduced to a bunch of adults behaving poorly.

if nothing else it has allowed my childrent o learn that adults can disagree without shooting each other. how to argue respectfully. how to be couragous enough to take a stand

i do not understand all these adults refusing to deal with issue like adult. one of the reasons we have to follow blind rule is because adults cannot interact with reason in disagreement

[elleng]

116. THANK YOU, seabeyond!

I've been hoping you'd to speak up!!!!

Adults have to interact with reason; otherwise, this country is, well, doomed, actually, doomed to be victims of rw fanatics.

[seabeyond]

131. i dont know anything better i could have given my children than to stand up and disagree

but with respect and love and a sense that even in disagreement it is not all that we are. both children have learned and both will speak out and do it with respect. and when someone doesnt give them the respect in return, they understand that some just are not able to and do not take it personally. will serve them well as they journey thru life.

[elleng]

132. YES YES, ME TOO!

My daughters are older now, one out of college and one a sophomore, and you can understand, I'm sure, the thrill I feel when they speak up. By doing so, my younger daughter was able to obtain, for all the teachers and counselors at the summer camp where they work, all the same benefits; she had learned that there was some sort of pay and benefit differential, she spoke up about it, and it was changed!

AND there was the swimming counselor who engaged in improper behavior; well, he and his 'company' no longer work there!

AND she's studying early childhood/special education, so she'll bring it forward!

[seabeyond]

133. so she'll bring it forward.... yes

and, no victim. just lesson and opportunity

good for your daughters.

[goddess40]

104. I've seen right wing parents assume a lot of authority

and teachers aren't likely to intervene because administration doesn't want the bad publicity.

I saw one bitch yell at a little kid because she jokingly told the librarian she laughed like a witch. The little girl burst into tears, if the librarian was offended it was her duty to say something to the child not some loud mouth parent. The librarian wasn't offended because she knows her laugh is very much like a cackle you would associate with a witch.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

3. Unintended consequences.

What if you work two or three jobs, are exhausted when you get home, and have no time to volunteer at your kid's school? So then they take a fine out of your state income tax return, so you have LESS money? Lovely. :sarcasm:

[seabeyond]

9. you know what.... had the kids in the first place. they will work with a parent

do the job

[sandnsea]

4. Most schools are awful at encouraging parents

Most of the teachers here will have a caniption, but it's true. I've only seen one school, out of around 50, that had a good program that included parents at every step. Most of them treat you like an intrusion, and then turn around and bitch when you finally shut up and leave them alone.

[seabeyond]

12. surprise.... private and 3 different public all encourage parents participation

in texas.

[sandnsea]

40. There's saying they want you

and instituting a program where you are included on a weekly basis, including your opinions. Two different things.

All schools will take a parent who will show up, shut up, and do as they're told. That's not conducive to long term volunteerism though.

[seabeyond]

45. really.... who the fuck cares, it is for the kids. just seeing how thrilled my boys

are to see me there is enough. i dont have to run the damn school

respectfully

[sandnsea]

60. Some schools do stupid shit

Like instructing middle schoolers on how to file complaints against the teachers, and then wondering why their school is in a constant uproar because the kids have more power than the adults.

Or telling kindergarteners under what circumstances their parents will be called, like if they set the classroom on fire. Wha???

Or writing the parent a note as a discipline method, for every single thing from being noisy to dropping a pencil on the floor.

Or, in the alternative, throwing fits and turning desks upside down.

I could go on and on about the stupid policies of schools and teachers. I don't participate in that kind of insanity, and I move my kids as quick as I can.

[LWolf]

127. "Have a conniption," lol.

I spent 20 years at schools that did exactly what you haven't seen. As a matter of fact, the last school I worked at, for 12 years before moving to Oregon, was founded on full parent participation. In the beginning, parents and teachers sat on all hiring committees, including hiring site admins, and made group decisions about who to hire to staff the school. Other committees were in charge of the budget and every major decision we had to make. That went away as the years went on; the district, and surrounding schools, didn't like our autonomy, and didn't like so much power held at grass-roots levels. Even so, parents remained a strong force in our school.

It's true that I don't find that level of partnership between parents and schools here in Oregon. It bothers me. Still, I have plenty of parents who spend time on campus and in classrooms, doing all kinds of great things, and I'm teaching middle school, where the level of parent participation usually drops off.

I guess I've managed to be open and accessible despite the more closed attitudes.

[seabeyond]

128. a private, 3 public schools, teachers and adm have always welcomed me

into their school to be a part understanding the children love to see a parent down there and how much it help that child with their education. i guess we are just lucky that all of the schools my kids have attended have been about the children

[LWolf]

134. I like the way you phrase that:

"about the children."

I believe that all educators go into the profession with that attitude. That goal, to keep education about children, can be trampled along the way with an authoritarian power structure, a dysfunctional, unworkable system, and other outside pressures.

If we really wanted all public schools to be healthy, vibrant, student-centered learning communities, we would structure and fund the system differently, and remove many of the mandates that get in the way. Meanwhile, it's good to know that so many schools keep their primary objective in focus despite the challenges.

[sandnsea]

142. I had that in a school in Montana

Every single thing was designed for parental involvement. School work included items from the home. Spelling list had extra things parents could do at home. Book It. What did everybody read this week, from cereal boxes to comics to shopping lists, everything counted. There wasn't a month that went by that there wasn't a fun project at home, in addition to the spelling, math and other aspects of the curriculum. When it came time for volunteering, parents didn't mind it because they were used to being involved in their kids' education. Very few schools incorporate parents into the actual curriculum, or the budgeting, selection of books, etc. You know the difference and it's very rare.

And you are also welcomed in any school because you're a teacher. Professionals get treated better by most educators. I've seen the difference when my husband ran a local treatment center, and we were joe-schmoe nobody's.

[LWolf]

144. It is rare.

I certainly can't claim that there were a lot of others like us out there; we were under pressure from our district and from the other schools in our district, for being too "different." That pressure takes its toll, and can shut down grassroots efforts to make schools a more integral part of the community.

Here in Oregon, our PTC operates completely separately from the school, which was a big shock. I was used to the PTA/PTC being an integral part of the school. Attending meetings and working with us on common goals. Here, they don't talk to us at all. They set priorities and create fundraisers and activities with little input from school staff. Teachers do their own fundraisers for things like field trips, PE equipment, etc..

The parent volunteers I have are great, and they are allowed more responsibility than in my previous state. Of course, they also have to get a security clearance before they ever take a step past the front office, as does any parent who is at school for any reason. That means that parents can't just stop by to spend some time in their child's classroom; no parents in a classroom without the clearance. Many parents don't bother with the clearance, which leaves a distinct physical wall between us, as well as a wall of distrust.

On the other hand, the security clearance is good for some things. We spend a couple of days at outdoor science school every year, and take parents along to help chaperone. Parents who are approved volunteers. One dad got rejected this year for not passing the security clearance: it seems he has been convicted of selling meth at some time in the past.

In my perfect professional world, parents would be valued partners in much of the decision making at school sites. Meanwhile, I try to be as accessible as possible, to listen carefully, and to work with, rather than against parents. It seems like the most productive way to operate, lol.

[sandnsea]

145. Where are you?

If you don't mind. I'm in Florence. It's a relatively good school, so I just got out of the way for the most part. I notice that there is local territorialism from the parents, and a sort of defensiveness from the schools. I think it's because Oregon has become so transitory, so many people coming in from CA, so many farmworkers, that the school systems just get tired of being told how to do things. Luckily, our school board just got some shaking up so I think we'll be moving towards a more liberal agenda. I imagine my daughter will have an easier time because she went to school here. I just wish we had some method of measuring curriculums and styles, because some do work much better than others.

[LWolf]

146. I'm in Redmond.

I'm familiar with Florence; my mom lived there for several years in the 90s.

I've seen a lot of both territorialism and defensiveness. I understand both, having been on both sides of that divide as both a parent and a teacher. I honestly think it helps when teachers are able to see things from parents' perspectives, and parents do a better job of seeing things from our perspective when they've spent time with us, in our rooms, with our students. I just don't think we need to mandate "volunteer" hours.

I came in from CA myself, finally making the move to be closer to my mom. I'm her only relative outside of my children, and she was getting old enough that I needed to be closer to her.

I find the differences between California and Oregon to be interesting; on one hand, CA has MUCH higher curricular standards. The students I left behind in CA were much further along academically. Oregon, though, does a better job of dealing with NCLB. California is highly authoritarian, to the point that we had principals telling their teachers they would be written up for not having the standardized bulletin boards up-to-date during random room checks; not being on the same page, at the same time as everyone else in the building with the scripted curricula that were adopted as part of improvement plans when schools didn't make AYP; doing anything outside of scripted curriculum; and more.

In Oregon we get more support than we do threats, at least for now. If NCLB is renewed, eventually Oregon schools will become more authoritarian, as well.

In California we were tested to death; several days every trimester, and then weeks of spending 3 hours a day testing in the spring. In Oregon, we test frequently to comply with NCLB, but the tests are shorter and less stressful.

Here I'm allowed, and encouraged, to spend instructional time on social and emotional development as well as tested curriculum. Our administrators are supportive and helpful. I took a massive pay cut (fully 1/3 less,) plus a big cut in benefits when I moved here. I haven't gotten over the low pay, but I still love to go to work every day. I can't say the same for the last several years I taught in CA.

[sandnsea]

147. Oh, that's pretty over there

We had thought about moving over there, but now we've got these grandbabies, so, not hardly leaving now.

My oldest was in school in Klamath Falls. Mostly bad schools there, except one good one because the principal was exceptional. He was a bit authoritarian, I knew a teacher separately who hated the principal, but from a parent's perspective, he was fantastic. I don't think my son ever did better in a school. He expected every student to get involved in something, music, sports, art, something. He had a very consistent rewards system in place, and it was weekly so kids got a chance to do well on a regular basis. The school in Montana had a thing where teachers gave "compliments" to kids, they'd write it on a paper and give it to the child's teacher and the child's teacher would praise them. I don't think they got anything except praise, and the teachers gave all the compliments to the parents at ptc. I don't know why some schools seem to get everything humming just right, and others fumble along.

I think the school here is a bit more independent for the teachers, seems to me. In some ways that's good, but then the high school had one teacher who was really easy with the CIM/CAM, so kids would try to go around their own teacher and get her to read their essays. So I can also see where too much teacher independence can end up with a system where students aren't prepared from year to year. It's frustrating when you tell your child their work isn't up to par, because you know it isn't, but their teacher is giving them A's & B's. Then there's the differentiation between regular high school and AP, and kids are in no way ready for college with regular high school classes anymore, but AP is always full and sometimes those kids aren't chosen fairly.

Anyway, I've blathered enough. I just feel like Michelle Obama, we know what good schools look like, we just need to do what it takes to make all schools good schools.

[LWolf]

150. I brought my grandbaby (and his dad) with me.

I would have been here sooner, but it took a few years to convince my son that he ought to join me.

My other son is still in CA, and we only see him a couple of times a year. :(

He's here this week, and I'm loving having everyone together at the same time. It doesn't happen often anymore.

Grades are a funny thing. I got to teach for many years in a system that didn't give traditional grades, and I liked it that way. Traditional As and Bs and Cs are based, partly on the content learned, and partly on learning to work within a system. Both are important, of course. It's important to be able to complete tasks and meet deadlines.

I find that traditional grades are less a reflection of actual learning, though, and more a reflection of work ethics. There are students who do plenty of learning, but refuse to ever document that learning, and so get failing grades. At the same time, there are students who pass with a minimal amount of learning because they try hard and make sure that all their "i"s are dotted and "t"s are crossed.

There's no perfect system, but I preferred the system I used previously, which was based on developmental levels of learning rather than mathematical averages.

[Mind_your_head]

5. oh, what a bunch of bs.

Have the school districts EVER asked why some parents don't volunteer? I'll give you one reason....because the parents who would like to volunteer are turned off by the "hover nannies" who say it MUST BE DONE my way or the highway. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're just affected by their offended ego.

Then again, I was appalled by parents who wouldn't spend a dime or spare a moment for their own children's school. Those types are out there too.

I believe it's reasonable to ASK parents, "why don't you volunteer, really?" and hopefully work from some of those honest answers.

Just my 2 cents.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

26. Guess what happened at a private school full of rich kids.

My daughter went to a private Montessori school. I would show up to volunteer for Girl Scouts. They didn't need me. There would be 6 or 8 moms and 25 or 30 girls.

There were plenty of rich mommies who did not have a day job, and they formed a clique to keep me out. They ignored me, because I had a good education and actually worked outside the home. You'd think I was filthy or something. They had TOO MANY mommies volunteering and they were busy ignoring me because I was not part of their social group. :wtf:

[Mind_your_head]

43. I "know" that feeling...very well

:hug:

Soooooo many children need so much help. And we'd first like to start with helping/enjoying seeing our own children benefit.....but there are MANY of us who would like to spread that on to the schools where parents are too busy/tired to volunteer. REALLY, it's true! There is a LOT of wasted talent/energ out here, just waiting to be tapped!

But those bitchy mommy's (how I hate them) need to step back........waaaaaaaaaaaaa back :angry:

[OhioChick]

63. That's terrible...

I feel for both you and for "Mind_your_head" for having these experiences. Downright awful.
:hug:

[Mind_your_head]

70. You're not one of those moms are you?

just trying to make fun?

If you don't like me or don't want to accept me than the least you can do is tell me what I'm doing wrong so that I may 'correct' (if, in fact, I'm in error).


Othewise, f*********ck U.


Good thing you "married well" ;-). Life if tough when you are on your own.

[OhioChick]

71. Easy there....

I was agreeing with the both of you regarding being treated pitifully and dealing with cliques and such. It shouldn't be that way....it's downright naive.

And no.....I'm not one of "those moms."

[Mind_your_head]

74. Peace

:-)

[OhioChick]

76. I Thought that my initial post "was" clear.

Mine went to a private school and I dealt with cliques and feeling "left out." I still went and volunteered and thought....the hell with all of them. :)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

86. I decided they weren't worth worrying about.

The rich mommies thought they were superior to me. And their kids even picked on MY kid because neither her mom nor her dad were rich (we were separated by the time she hit preschool at 3).

I stopped standing around at Girl Scout meetings. I used to go to the Christmas cookie exchange, because I was the only mommy who could play the piano. They needed someone to play The 12 Days of Christmas. I could do that.

I guess the gathering around the piano and singing is no longer done.

Rich scum, as far as I'm concerned.

[OhioChick]

94. Don't let them get to you...

I know...easier said than done. I dealt with much of the same for years. I worked, so I considered it a slap in the face to not be needed at times, especially when I took time off. You keep going.....to hell with all the immature asses and remember that you're there for your children. :)

[alittlelark]

81. I clicked your profile because your story sounded familiar

Los Altos is a good drive from TX.... the story sounds similar.

We had to build a pre-school from the ground up here...it was a parent participation school.

I was the Facilities person..... I wish I knew then what I know now.

There were 3-4 parents who had taken Alpha roles ( I was dealing w/ sub-contractors and bills ). They had created a clique which I was a part of (due to position) but was also ignorant of.


Years later I bumped into parents from the school who vented their frustration w/ person T,Y,Z.

I had no idea.

It was a valuable learning experience.

[seabeyond]

6. i have been volunteering for a decade. am tired. lol. more parents please. private school

mandatory participation frm parent and it worked out very well. but that was each parent and 9 per parent. doable.

and it is always the same ole parent year after year

but.... i do see that those that become a familiar face get more, and the kids get more from the school

now...

i have to go and figure out why i have an extra gray med tshirt and am missing a black large tshirt from the orders of tshirts for the middle school, i am putting together.

[femmocrat]

7. I think it's a terrible idea.

For one thing, what about all the clearances that they would need to work with the children?

A far better idea would be requiring parents to attend teacher conferences, return teachers' phone calls, and agree to oversee their child's progress and homework. How about fining them for excessive absenteeism, tardiness, and unexcused absences, instead?

If they show no interest in their child's education, it is unlikely that a $100 fine is going to turn them into responsible parents.

[Mind_your_head]

16. Yep, mebbe agreeing that you have your background run through

Choicepoint, et al in order to work a fundraiser or costumes in a play or read a story in a classroom is disagreeable with parents.

[OhioChick]

23. You brought up a point that I had forgotten about....

"clearances."

I remember when I helped out at my youngest child's school a while back.....I did have to have to undergo an FBI background check.

[seabeyond]

25. at our school, beginning of year package has volunteer sheet asking for info

i fill out every year as does anyone else thinking they may volunteer. isnt a big deal

[oldhippie]

10. How is that NOT involutary servitude?

Amendment 13 - Slavery Abolished. Ratified 12/6/1865.

1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

[BlooInBloo]

13. hahahhaaha! Yes - it's JUST LIKE slavery!

DUers slay me.

America's children must be gratified to know that grown ups view helping children as slavery.

Stay classy DUers.

[oldhippie]

24. Servitude to help children FORCED BY LAW .............

What do you call it?

Is it ok with you if we force people by law to pick lettuce or cotton in the fields when there is a labor shortage? It would be for a good cause, people have to eat. Would that be different?

[seabeyond]

27. "What do you call it?" being a parent. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

31. Don't you get it??? Being a parent is just like being a slave!!!

No fucking wonder kids don't listen to "adults", when the believe this kind of idiotic bullshit.

Kids: I'm sorry your parents are the way they are. Do the best you can - you're on your own.

[seabeyond]

38. Do the best you can - you're on your own..... ya aaaa n/t

[oldhippie]

35. So I guess you're OK with the govt forcing parents by law .........

... to provide a standard (govt determined) level of food, clothes, outside entertainment, reading material, provide lists of suitable activities, provide curfews, uniforms, and basically raising your children the way the govt says? After all, that's "being a parent."

And you didn't answer my question about forcing people by law to pick cotton. You OK with that?

[BlooInBloo]

39. People are forced by law to do all sorts of things. OH NOES!!! WE'RE ALL SLAVES!!!!!!

Everyone should now understand how the idiocy level of Americans got the country to what you see before you today.

[oldhippie]

49. You keep avoiding the question, so I guess I know the answer........

You're OK with slavery. Forcing people by law to pick cotton. If it's for the children.

No need for further explanation. I got you figured out. Bye.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Daemonaquila]

100. Seconded, oldhippie!

Ah, yes. Even forced labor is fine if it's for THEIR cause, dontcha know? Obviously all must bow for the sake of the children. Just like all interests must bow to homeland security and damn the constitution.

[mondo joe]

102. I do think it's wrong to legislate labor of private citizens.

Its wrong.

[elleng]

47. Exactly.

No wonder why U.S. education is in the doldrums.

[PVnRT]

115. Mmmmmm, nice, missing the point and all

It is involuntary service. Involuntary servitude. It is the same thing, whether you want to see it that way or not. It does not mean thinking that being involved with your children is slavery.

[BlooInBloo]

11. Whatever the semantics of the terminology are, having parents involved for once isn't a bad thing.

[seabeyond]

15. i am surprised i am on the oust on this per this thread. lol. i think it is a good thing too. n/t

[The Straight Story]

18. having people involved and forcing them are two different things

:)

[BlooInBloo]

20. Wah.

[The Straight Story]

30. Which means what, you are in favor of forcing people to adopt your views?

or face jail time, etc? If so, I got some views I might like to force on you :)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Straight Story]

46. Which answers my post how?

:)

[oldhippie]

19. I agree, but ......

..... mandating it by law is.

[BlooInBloo]

21. (shrug) If parents weren't commonly such jackasses, they'd do it on their own....

... Feel free to enter your favorite excuse here.

[OhioChick]

28. In all seriousness....

Given the status of Cleveland's economic situation....what would a (let's say) single parent working several jobs do? It's tough enough getting a "sick day" in this day and age, let alone a "field trip" day.

However, I do see and understand your point.

[BlooInBloo]

36. Obviously for such a law to be practically workable....

... it would have to be integrated in the employer obligations. Rather like jury duty is.

[Quantess]

17. I anticipate many parents would just pay the $100 fine instead.

How can this ever be legal?

[Daemonaquila]

103. Nah - refuse, then sue

50,000 parents all suing the state for a constitutional violation would be beautiful. It would cost the state far more to defend than the fines could ever cover. That would end the crap REAL quick.

[Quantess]

143. Yes, a backlash would be likely.

Think about it: put in 13 hours of unpaid, mandatory volunteer work, or get to keep those 13 hours for yourself, and pay $100.

Each hour is $7.70

And yes, fighting this in court would be expensive for the schools.

I have worked in public schools, and I have interned at public schools, and I have done other types of volunteer work, but I don't think anyone should be forced to volunteer, as though they were being punished with a sentence of community service. Forced volunteer work is not volunteer work at all.

[Firespirit]

22. I don't have mixed feelings. It's more public school authoritarianism.

As you pointed out, time off from work is an issue, as is money. Other issues could be long-term health problems, disability, pregnancy, and military service.

When I was in high school, my parents and I were acknowledged enemies of the county superintendent, school board, principal, assistant principals, and numerous teachers. The sole reason for it was because the three of us had a history of publicly opposing stupid policies and standing up for correct teaching of science and history instead of the right-wing shit that was being taught. And the school people used their power to make things hard for us, including bullying my kindergarten-age sister until she literally ran from her classroom crying. They also hauled me before the principal and threatened me with suspension when I said to a group of friends that we should deliberately slack on our standardized tests to hurt the school's rating. (Trustworthy friends, I know.) It was pure misery.

I don't mean to suggest that this Ohio district is like that, but I would hate to even see such a precedent established. These people abuse their power, and forcing private citizens to provide free labor for them, often AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE (if they don't get paid time off), would be a very very bad idea.

[Firespirit]

56. Anybody got an answer?

Can one of the big defenders explain to me why it would have been beneficial to me either to have a steady stream of right-wing fundy parents at the school, or for my parents to be forced to work for these assholes who would drive an innocent 5-year-old child into the school parking lot in tears?

[seabeyond]

58. i dont know what you are talking, so cannot answer. i have had a

private school and 3 public schools and seems to me like teachers, adm and volunteers havent had these issues. not seeing it in the people working together or employees.

[Firespirit]

62. This is the kind of thuggery that goes on all too often in right wing areas

The school wasn't very far from a school in the South where a secular family came out against school prayer and saw their kids harassed and bullied by authority figures.

After I quit school, a racial incident happened... it was amidst the "Flag Wars" over the placement of the rebel flag in state flags... A group of racist scumball kids got a black mannequin and attached it to the back of someone's pickup truck and drove through school grounds with it dragging the ground, an homage to the despicable hate crime a few years earlier in Texas. What did the district do? Discipline them, expel their asses? Involve the law?

No, they covered it up and told the press it hadn't happened.

[seabeyond]

65. well, kids were in a private with differing views in 2004 with kerry and liberal stickers

and we were all able to respectfully disagree and when i had issue i talked to whomever, and we were able to work it out.

never had any real issue with public, and have been able to resolve when i have needed.

so i cant answer you

[LWolf]

130. I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience.

I hope you know that public schools in the U.S. are not, in spite of the last decade's attempts to force standardization, all cut from the same cloth.

Each state sets up the system differently, and each district, within state mandates, does the same. Each school site, within district mandates, does the same, and each classroom, within site mandates, does the same.

Not all schools, districts, and school boards are anything at all like what you describe. It's true that schools are MORE authoritarian under NCLB and the "standards and accountability" movement; that's a natural consequence of threatening the whole system. Most educators don't support the current status-quo, though.

I doubt you'll find many educators that support forced volunteer hours, either. I don't.

[Matariki]

29. fine for familes with a 'stay at home' parent

a lot more difficult for a single parent with one or more jobs. AND - aren't school hours pretty much normal working hours for most people? Wouldn't that be a bit of an unfair burden on single parents?

[seabeyond]

37. i guess one could say there is an unfair burden on the same parents that always have

to put in the time cause too many parents dont participate.

[OhioChick]

42. Good Point

Not to mention that many couples are both working these days.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

32. When my kids were little I volunteered, voluntarily, and loved it. My kids thought it was

pretty cool too.

If we are talking about a school bill making it mandatory, they must take the word volunteer out of it. It seems that the lawmakers need to brush up on their dictionary definitions.

[seabeyond]

44. parent participation. i have been doing it over a decade. i am tired.

two kids.... different school and grades. told sons this year.... i am done

youngest... but but but

so i will do it a couple more years with him on the things i know he would want me to do.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

52. It might not be wonderful that you're so tired of doing it for so long but in the long run,

your kids will never forget it.

It was touching when my sons' classmates became attached to me and I kept that connection throughout the years when I'd see them. I'm sure you've experienced the same. :)

[seabeyond]

54. exactly. not only good for my kids, but those they hang with. they know me, are connected

not to mention i know all the teachers, not only sons, and administration adn principle. i have an in. it is excellent for my children, their special needs and really an advantage so many parents are missing

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

119. I think my involvement in the school helped directly in getting help I needed for my younger son.

Due to problems at birth, he was diagnosed as having borderline Cerebral Palsy. He had issues with his speech, large and small motor coordination. I never had a problem getting assistance for him. He was the one who resisted help as he didn't want to feel singled out. One of the gym teachers, whom I had developed a great relationship with, even devised a program on her own, that included one of my son's friends, to help him with his large motor functions.

[seabeyond]

122. it is an absolute advantage to your child, being a part of the school. i would never

give up the opportunity to have such a asset behind my children, i do not care how busy i am. i let all teachers know ahead of time i am available, whatever teacher needs, i support her and am on her side.... win win win.... lets do it, what is best for child. already started with new school for youngest next year. they know about him and his particulars, .... fine motor skills being one. walking into 5th grade and needs laptop for writing. (i am going to check out cerebral palsy. we have looked into everything else, lol).

it would seem unfair that those parents that connect with the teacher and adm get more for the kid, but ALL parent has the opportunity to give to kid. just allows teacher to understand, ergo give more to the kids.

and so many parents miss the chance of giving kid more.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

141. And the sadness is, so many parents miss that opportunity because of their

circumstances. When my sons were younger I had the luxury of being home during the week. I worked on weekends and now I'm home and have an internet related business, so my hours are flexible. My oldest is in college and youngest a senior in high school, but like the other day, I received a call from the school nurse and was available to bring him home.

And yes, it does seem unfair that those who were present in the school did have a bit more leverage in assisting our children.

My youngest needed the assistance of a computer until a couple of years ago. His handwriting is now legible. Not great, but many doctors and lawyers have awful handwriting (I worked for years with lawyers!). He also do very well on the SATs without needing further time, nor the assistance of a computer. It's been years since he was the one who was dead last in the annual school mile run.

We didn't come upon the diagnosis of borderline CP until my son was about 7. His doctor thought him in the norm range of being about a year behind and that eventually, as he got older, he'd catch-up with children his own age. There were things I picked up on and those pointed to CP. Small and large motor issues, extra saliva when speaking, bowel functions. Also a lapse in the timing between when you would say something to him, and he would actually hear what you would say to him. Once he heard it, he would never forget it. He is like a sponge when it comes to gathering information.

I live an hour outside of NY and we took him to the American CP headquarters to have him tested.

As the doctor said, he did catch-up with his peers, but getting that extra help in school assisted in keeping his head above water.

[noamnety]

33. Ugh. That's awful.

I'm a teacher, and a parent, and I can see a thousand problems with this from both sides. One of the years my kids was in school, I was working on an army base an hour away from home, as a single parent, and did not get a single personal day for the entire year because my two weeks "vacation" as an army civilian was used for my mandatory time in the reserves. Parents do not all have 13 free hours during school hours over the course of a year, and for many single parents who do have personal days, they use them when their child is sick.

Some have other small children at home to care for. Some have health problems.

And we don't all have a hundred extra dollars to pay for "free" public education. If we all had that, we wouldn't need the free lunch programs.

When she was older, and I had a different job, I volunteered far more than 13 hours. But there was a time when it just wasn't possible, and it's really not helpful to give us what amounts to a $100 tax for being a single parent.

Some parents have drug or alcohol problems, some are disruptive or violent to the point where police need to be called and the school won't allow them on school property anymore. Some are verbally abusive to their own kids, I certainly wouldn't want to let them around my other students. I had a student once in my room sobbing because of some completely out of line crap that a parent chaperone said to them.

I've had students also who are homeless, and living out of their car at age 15. What happens with them?

[Firespirit]

41. Does this mean that the school district is legally liable for these parents' actions?

If Susie's mom spanks Johnny while she is doing her mandatory labor, who gets sued by Johnny's parents?

Though I imagine any district that would have a forced labor policy would also have a legal CYA statement.

[seabeyond]

50. i am really not seeing parents too concerned with the same parents continually doing for other child

at their expense and time over and over and over. the same parent puts the time in and effort and work and seems like not only is it not appreciated but expected because by gosh, you are a stay at home parent. yours to do, and with my child. and not even a thank you

i'm really suprised at the "liberal" attitude. or selfish attitude that some peoples times so much more valuable than others.

[Firespirit]

53. If you don't want to, then don't do it

If you do want to, then do it and don't act like a martyr about it.

I fail to see how it is a good idea to force parents to spend time with everyone else's kids. Just because they're parents, and presumably love their own kids, does not mean that they have to like ALL kids. And if they don't, why make them interact with kids they don't care for?

[seabeyond]

55. firstly it is a responsiblity and an obligation. parents are needed

i have an obligation to fellowman to shower every day and not be stinking. i may drag ass into shower but it is gonna get done

it deos get me how a parent doesnt appreciate, expect, demands.... i guess it is this very attitude that made this city consider the bill

[Firespirit]

57. So you think that what was done to my sister that I mention in post 22 was just the way it is?

My family and I were bullied and harassed by a right wing school district for FIVE YEARS. The LAST thing I would want myself, or them to be forced to do is VOLUNTEER for them. The hell with that place.

So be it, though.

:eyes:

[seabeyond]

59. i didnt read post 22..... n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Well, as a teacher, I can think of quite a few parents I would rather not have as helpers

even if they ARE legally mandated to volunteer. :)

[treestar]

136. There's that

And some of them would try to dominate and actually run the classroom! Nothing like a lay person to think a profession is easy and that they are smart enough to do it without the degree or the experience.

[proud2BlibKansan]

140. Just a few weeks ago,

we had a parent come in to pick up her child and she stood in the doorway of the classroom waiting for her daughter. The teacher heard her kids gasp and looked over just in time to hear this mother look at one of the kids in the class and say "And what the FUCK are YOU looking at?"

I would not want this woman as a volunteer. LOL

[orleans]

78. is that 13 hours for each parent? or do they get to split the hours?

what about single parents? they might have a harder time with that. what if they have small children/babies/ at home? blablabla

i think it's a stupid fucking idea.

yes, parents should be encouraged, however.....

[alittlelark]

79. We are 'REQUIRED' to donate about $2000 per year.

I put 'REQUIRED' in quotes because they won't throw your kid out of the Public School, but they will continue the phone calls and 'window calls' during drop offs.

They WILL get their $$$$ - Tony Soprano would be proud.

We were once late by 3 weeks and we were tormented until we gave the $$$


Our school district is regularly the highest rated in CA, the school we attend w/in the district is a Charter w/ teachers earning well over the average.

We have soooo many volunteers at our school they are regularly turned away.




Even those w/ limited time can donate 5-10 hours a semester.

ALL public schools are crying for help - their budgets have been slashed.

[raqi]

80. I've been required to volunteer the last six years...

You mean there was a choice? I don't think so ... NCLB made sure all public schools - no matter what economic demographic they were in ... had to rely on volunteers (I'm over 150 hours this year as I write this) and donations/fundraisers to provide a quality educational environment for our children. And, pay $$$$s more than we used to, for the pleasure.

Maybe if we lived in Iraq, our schools would be fully funded by BushCo, but we don't .... while they steal billions of our tax dollars to rebuild their country (stuff a wad in the pockets of war profiteers and 'sit' on their hundreds of billions in oil wealth) our kids are getting screwed - and killed. Fuck Iraq and the folks Bush helped to make wealthy by ripping off taxpayers to fund his unnecessary and fraud-ridden war.

[alittlelark]

84. Welcome to DU raqi !!!!

I look forward to more posts!:toast:

[treestar]

137. This is what amazes me about rabid right wingers

They are adamantly against even having public schools here, but don't mind ponying up their tax dollars to build schools in Iraq!

[JCMach1]

88. Does that include sex offenders and other felons?

Sometimes the idiocy of lawmakers is astounding.

[Saphire]

90. My hubby got a felony when he was a 17 yo kid. Now, at 45. he's

not allowed to volunteer at the kids schools. It's a shame, because he really wanted to be involved in his children's school activities. BTW, the felony was nothing violent or sexual, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, and has never even gotten a ticket since then.

[JCMach1]

149. Problem in reverse...

sigh

[Berry Cool]

89. Knowing what bad shape the Cleveland schools are in,

I suspect it's essentially a ploy to get themselves free labor they otherwise cannot afford.

I mean, we're talking about a school system where several kids have to share a single textbook.

[OhioChick]

91. You Make a Pretty Good Point There. n/t

[Blue Diadem]

97. It's a house bill..state wide.

http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-38/1207049957282190.xml&storylist=cleveland
Legislative floor actions
4/1/2008, 7:30 a.m. EDT
The Associated Press


HB 519 SCHOOL VOLUNTEERING (Williams, S.) — To require parents of students enrolled in school districts to perform volunteer service for the district, to grant state employees paid leave to participate in a child's educational activities, to allow a nonrefundable credit against the corporate franchise or commercial activity tax for employer-paid leave enabling employees to participate in school-related activities, and to require school districts to establish mentoring programs for students.
----------------

I agree that it's a way to get help in the schools without having to pay for additional employees.

[Blue Diadem]

92. Here's a bit more on HB 519

HB 519 SCHOOL VOLUNTEERING (Williams, S.) — To require parents of students enrolled in school districts to perform volunteer service for the district, to grant state employees paid leave to participate in a child's educational activities, to allow a nonrefundable credit against the corporate franchise or commercial activity tax for employer-paid leave enabling employees to participate in school-related activities, and to require school districts to establish mentoring programs for students.
http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/news-38/1207049957282190.xml&storylist=cleveland


I volunteered when we lived in the city, but when we moved out to a small rural community, there didn't seem to be the need maybe due to class size being smaller and more income for the school system. I remember a few times after we moved here, chaperoning kids on field trips and assisting in school functions, but there just didn't seem to be the requests or need here.

[CBGLuthier]

93. I may be a parent who has almost raised three children

But I am not exactly what you would call the type of person who likes to work with children.

I know that I wouldn't want someone like me to be forced to work with my kids so why should someone else's kids be exposed to someone like me?

Now, I may be exagerating my own situation some but think about every parent you have ever met in the world and tell me that you would want every one of them to be working with children.

[crispini]

95. Thirteen hours a year? That's like two hours a month.

I'm all for it. Anybody can do that.

[PVnRT]

117. Sure about that?

How about the single parent with three jobs? Is it right to force them to sacrifice more time instead of spending it at home with, hmmmm, the kids?

[crispini]

118. Spend it at school with their kids.

It's amazing what you can do when you want to.

[PVnRT]

123. Right, why would people want to be in their own homes with their families?

[The2ndWheel]

126. Why even bother with the middle man. We're just wasting time

Take down the houses, since nobody can afford them anymore anyway, and build additions to the school. I always figured we'd all end up living in Wal-Mart housing. If we did that with schools, that might even be better.

Ohhhhhh man, even better would be to combine the schools and Wal-Mart into a giant superstructure. That way, you can never escape.

[Book Lover]

124. Is that how much time you put in at your kids' school?

Or do you do more or less?

[Evoman]

96. Considering most parents these days seem to be pushovers who give their kids anything they want,

I think it's a good thing they don't volunteer, and their kids get some time away from them.

Now all we have to do is give the teacher more power, and stop parents from automatically taking the kid's side in every dispute (yess the teacher is probably right and your kid is an asshole) and maybe we could actually salvage the education system.

[mondo joe]

101. Wrong headed. Volunteers are good because people WANT to volunteer - not because they HAVE to.

In addition, I can't help but feel this is in some fashion a response to the long time underfunding of schools.

[The2ndWheel]

109. At least the penalty isn't jail time

So they have that going for them, which is nice.

[goddess40]

110. While I believe if you have the kid you have the time

and you should have considered that before you had kids reality tells me that it isn't that simple.

I don't want people helping out that don't want to be there. While some would be pleasantly surprised and actually enjoy themselves others would be sulky whine bags.
It would also be a nightmare to keep track of who did and didn't put in their time, our schools don't have the time to invest in more record keeping.


We had one parent that was very active when her boys were in school but when her much younger daughter got to grade school she announced she'd done her time and she wasn't going to help anymore. I say you make the child you do the time. To her credit though even though she no longer helped at school she did take over the girl scout activities right through high school, granted the troop only contained girls from wealthy families that could afford the trips they took to Europe, DC and South Carolina.

[Ganja Ninja]

112. Not necessarily a good idea.

Some of those parents are as screwed up as their kids. And why would you need this if we funded schools properly and paid teachers at a level that would attract quality individuals into the profession?

[PVnRT]

113. "Required Volunteering" is an oxymoron

Volunteering is a decision made by someone to do something. When the government makes you do it, it's called "coercion."

Parental involvement does not mean coming to school to chaperone a field trip; it means being involved with your child at home when they do homework. This sounds more like an attempt to get rid of teacher's aides and the like by drafting the parents, and you're fucked if you can't get time off work to help. Yay, Ohio!

[LWolf]

125. I love to have parents on campus, and in classrooms.

It's a wonderful way to form working partnerships, and to make sure parents see what the reality of a school day is really like.

I don't think it should be mandated, though.


SCHOOLS OUGHT TO BE FULLY FUNDED. The idea that we have to rely on volunteer hours to get the job done is a right wing agenda. Only those who wish Public Education to be weak and ineffectual want to keep the system understaffed and underfunded.

I worked for many years at a "school of choice" that required parent volunteer hours for attendance. A public school that had no neighborhood zone, but that would take any students within the district whose parents chose to send them. Twelve hours a year, or they could donate supplies to take the place of spending time in the building. Not $100 worth; I think it was about $25, and it wasn't a "fine."

We didn't enforce that requirement. First, there were no legal grounds to enforce it on, and second, we didn't think it was the right thing to do. We encouraged families to spend time at school, and thanked them for donations, but we didn't call them when they didn't fulfill their hours.

Until the last administrator. He didn't call all of the parents, but he used the "requirement" as a loophole on several occasions to send kids with problem behaviors back to their home schools. Nobody ever called him on it. I guess he thought it was a "fair" arrangement, since a large percentage of our student population were those who hadn't been successful in their home schools, for whatever reason, and had been encouraged to transfer to us.

I always thought the whole thing stunk to high heaven, except for the part that encouraged parent presence and involvement on campus. That level of transparency was good for everyone.

I'm glad to see that district and site administrators in Cleveland agree that it's better to encourage than to mandate or legislate. I wonder why Sandra Williams is pushing this, if she doesn't have the backing of educators from her district. I doubt she has the support of parents or the rest of the community, either.

[Akoto]

129. If they're essentially being forced, they need to be paid for it.

Some folks are working multiple jobs just to provide for their kids at home. A few hours away from that could make the difference in being able to afford certain things. If they're to be forced to work at the school (it's not volunteering if the law forces them), they should be compensated for their time.

[treestar]

135. I don't think all parents should be required

Just the ones who complain or who defend their child when their child engages in bad behavior.

[SoCalDem]

138. Can parents volunteer between 8Pm and 4 Am?

Parents in California are often on the freeway by 4AM and don't get home until 7-ish..

How's that gonna work:eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

139. It's required at the private schools in Cleveland.

I taught at Beaumont and at VASJ. Most of the feeder schools require parents to volunteer a set number of hours or they get a bill at the end of the year.

The publics need the help, but I think there should be a better way to get parents helping out. And then there are the parents who wouldn't pass a background check. What do you do about those? I always wondered that.

[angstlessk]

148. don't fine em...charge them $100 for the cost of volunteer services

and reduce the fee for every hour they serve as volunteers...till if they serve a total of 13 (should make it divisible by 2..say 14 hours?) hours it is wipped out? HOW SIMPLE IS THAT???