What is "REALLY" wrong with the auto industry

[DainBramaged]

They sell the most technologically advanced products (next to aircraft) in the world, and this is what the industry boils down to.



i·ro·ny

the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.


PS

it has something to do with the "verbiage"

[GodlessBiker]

1. Just what a person with bad credit needs. A new car.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

35. well people do have to get to work, regardless of their credit..

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. poor spelling as well

"You're approved" would be the correct spelling of the phrase.

Interestingly enough, in India they are building cars operating on compressed air. Why not here?

[DainBramaged]

5. YOU'RE the winner

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[bryant69]

3. We as a nation refuse to get serious about public transportation

Kind of sad.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mdmc]

27. agreed

:toast:

[screembloodymurder]

4. Read today how sales are expected to pick up when the new F150 and Ram

pickups come out. The auto companies don't seem to understand that people want better gas mileage not redesigned dinosaurs. Give me a pickup that gets 27 MPG and I'll buy tomorrow.

[bighart]

6. If sales do in fact increase after the "new" models of full size trucks

come out, does that disprove your assertion that people want better gas mileage? I don't think the "average" American driver really cares that much about fuel economy. I think they care more for convince and "feeling" safe in a big car, truck or suv.

[Fumesucker]

36. Give me a pickup that gets 27 MPG and I'll buy tomorrow.

I had a 93 Nissan pickup with the 2.4 twelve valve four and a five speed, it got 27 mpg on the highway and about 21 around town.

[Clark2008]

38. No. 1 and 2 best selling automobiles in my city are trucks of

this nature.

So... no, many Americans don't want better gas mileage, yet. They want to continue to look cool in their motorized transporation and pretend this is the 1950s.

[LSK]

63. are you sure about that? you are not reading old numbers are you???

[MadHound]

7. Several things are factors, and spelling isn't one of them

For decades now, foreign manufacturers have offered vehicles that are more reliable, last longer, perform better and get better gas mileage than anything coming out of Detroit. While Detroit wallowed in an orgy of behemoth SUVs, foreign manufacturers offered cars for the ordinary person who needed value and who needed to watch their budget.

I needed a new car in 1998, and after comparing price, quality, longetivity, etc., I opted for a Honda Civic. Ten years and 200,000 plus miles later, it is still running like a top, and I haven't had to do anything other than regular maintenence.

Sure, there's always anecdotal evidence about some long lasting Detroit iron, but their overall record has been a poor one for years and decades now. When Detroit can start consistently putting out vehicles that are as long lasting and reliable as foreign makes, then I'll go back to buying domestic. Until then, since it is my few and precious dollars at stake, I'm going to maximize my purchasing power and get what is best for me and my situation.

[underpants]

9. The SUV itself is an exercise in self-congratulatory self-destruction

Yes money was made off of them but Detroit let the hybrid market completely pass them by (Gore and others were trying to tell them-ford exec admitted to having dropped the ball a few months ago) and there never was a market for SUVs, not large scale anyway. SUVs are the product of marketing not traditional capitalist/market forces.

Again it isn't the production workers nor is it really the designers it is the offices higher up than that which decide on direction and focus.

[Clark2008]

39. But, they don't anymore.

American cars are far more reliable and less expensive these days.

Please stop living in the 1980s when your assertation was true.

Give me a Ford that doesn't need a brake job for 10 years over a Nissan that blows up or a Beemer with electrical problems out the whazoo any day (true experiences, btw).

[MadHound]

50. I'm not living in the eighties, thanks for your condescending tone though

If you noticed, I specifically mentioned a ten year old Honda in my post, but hey:shrug: reading's over-rated anyway.

I also noticed that you didn't address my very real concern about the lack of fuel efficiency these days either. The highest rated vehicles are all foreign, hmmm. <http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworst.shtml> Less fuel used, less money out of your pocket.

But hey, if you don't believe me, there are others who are saying the same thing

"But, overall, Japanese brands are still the ones to beat. Of the 47 vehicles with the highest predicted reliability, 39 are Japanese. Of those, all but seven are made by Toyota or Honda." <http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/11/08/cr_most_reliable/index.html> Hmm more reliable, less repair work, less expensive.

Oh, and as far as anecdotal experiences go with Nissans, I'll refer you to my ten year old Nissan truck that is still running like a champ on nothing other than regular maintenance.

So please, if you're going to be rude and condescending, at least have the sources and research to back it up with. Otherwise all that happens is that you wind up looking stupid and foolish, OK.

[Diclotican]

8. DainBramaged

DainBramaged

As a foreigner, I have seen lately that american auto industry have made some fine, big cars. But I have also seen that this is not what the ordinary man and women want, or need anymore. When the petrol price raises to new high, (and in many other country, we do have prices you in US just dream in, in bad dreams) we don't need big petrol gazing car, who are using over 1 liter to the 10km... What we need are Small, compact car who have a great mileage.

If United States of America, who you say have one of the best auto-industry in the world, wanted to get the american car up on their feet again, they must start thinking about other ways of made car, specially to the foreigner. We don't need, or want big costly car,what wee ned ar small car who have a lot of mileage on the tank. I really doubt that US, who have made all this amassing car since the late 1950s, have no capacity to build, Small, inexpensive, cars, who have Small engines, and a great mileage.

In the past the Auto-industry have made some progress when it come to compact car, but it was never the success that the auto industry wanted it to be. Because they was not using the proper tool, or they have not the right engine to the car. The need for a automatic stick, was not exactly something to do it better either... Even the smaller cars, was using a lot of more petrol, compared to german cars, and specially japanese cars..

I do believe that US if they want, would manage to make great, small cars who the rest of the world really want. But that must mean that the US auto-manufacture industry have to sort of a lot of problems first.. When they have doing that - AND working with the best, maybe learn something from the competition side of building cars.. Then the US auto manufacture industry would again raise and shine...

In the end, it is not the big cars who would win the game, it is advanced, small car, with great mileage, and maybe hybrid fuel cells who would rule the world.. And if US manufactures are not doing something very soon, it may be to late. I know many of the biggest in the car industry are in big economic problems, the world don't want this big trucks.. Well some want, but it cost more than it is worth.. And you have to have a deep pocket if you want to have a SUV from the United States of America... Taxes, taxes, and then some taxes on the top of that. And the once affordable SUV, are not THAT affordable anymore...

If US was to made decent, smaller cars, who could compete against japanese, Korean, and many european car industry. Then you would come back, with vengeance.. But as long the US auto-industry decide to build this BIG MEAN CAR, who are bigger and bigger year after year. the industry are building your way OUT of peoples pockets.. When you can get a Toyota SUV for less, than a Chrysler SUV, you may get the TOYOTA over the Chrysler.. Even that the Chrysler SUV are locking really MEAN...

For the record, I am owning a old rusty Toyota Corolla 1.6 16V and it is a good car to drive. And in any sense of the word, affoarable... But I am partly growing up, with the american cars.. Plymoth, Dogde (our family had a great Dogde with a V8 engine, and it was a FAST car I rembember, but the petrol needle was as fast as the axcellery pedal, if some was hard on the pedal.) And then we had some other Dogde, and some fords.. Then the Subaru Legacy come into our home. And then it was Subaru all the way... Now I belive they are driving a Suzuki or some like that

Diclotian

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[DainBramaged]

11. This was about a spelling error, not the inherent problems of the industry

:shrug:

[Diclotican]

13. Okay;)

Diclotican

[DainBramaged]

15. ....

:hi:

Be well, thanks for your contribution.

[Diclotican]

19. DainBramaged

DainBramaged

You to:hi: And thank you

Diclotican

[TheFarseer]

28. about US made small cars

Ford/GM only makes small cars as an afterthought. They are low quality with not much effort put into them. Maybe their new small cars are better but they already have a reputation for low quality. A fairly inexpensive Honda Civic, for instance, will run forever. A Geo Metro will be lucky to make 100,000 miles. US automakes only want to deal with high profit margin vehicles and it's a mistake because they are giving away entire segments of the auto market.

There is nothing comparable to the Accord, Camary or Civic. The Taurus might have been in the 90's but Ford let the best selling car of '95 (I think it was '95) just go to hell because they got sidetracked by SUV's and trucks. They just gave away that segment of the market. When the Japanese got pushed by the Taurus, they push back hard by making their cars even better, more reliable, more stylish and all that. When the Americans got pushed they started thinking of their ad campaign for SUV's. Now the American companies are getting pushed in SUV's. What are they going to do? Where else is there to run? They're already way behind in hybrids, small cars and midsized cars, and they're quickly losing their edge in trucks and SUV's

Your point that they are not putting much effort into foreign markets is well taken also.

[DainBramaged]

29. I guess you don't know much about the Cobalt?

Not only does it exceed it's EPA estimates in town and on the highway, it has become the tuner car of choice at the NOPI races and SCCA events, blowing away the vaunted Civics after decades of domination. And their reliability is becoming as legendary as the Cavaliers. And if you don't think so, my daughter has a 10 year old Cavalier with over 100K on it and we have never done ANY major repairs, just maintenance items.


The new Ecotec 2.2 liter 4 cylinder can produce nearly 200 hp while STILL delivering 34+ MPG highway in a Cobalt and 32 MPG in a 2000 lb. heavier Malibu.

Maybe you should "bone up" on MY car lines before you denigrate them???


OH a quick PS

Last week I had to go to a GM event in upstate NY. Drove 358 miles round trip in a 2004 V6 Malibu at or above the 65 MPH speed limit the whole way. We averaged 33.6 MPG, THIRTY THREE POINT SIX mpg in a v6 Chevy with FOUR people.

I guess Chevy's just suck?:rofl:

[TheFarseer]

30. That's good to hear

I hope the American car manufacturers can get their good name back. I have nothing to gain by them going out of business. I was actually trying to get my folks to look at a Malibu because a friend of mine said she liked hers. They went with a Buick, because they are old and set in their ways :) I think my point still remains that American car manufacturers have damaged their reputation over the years. I doubt you will find many people that think a Cavalier has legendary reliability.

Seriously, though, I hope American cars manufacturers can get back on top and millions of American can have a job making American cars for American drivers - I just think they have some work to do and I'm not sure they are equal to the task.

[DainBramaged]

31. Next time you are out, count the Cavaliers you see

Chevy sold MILLIONS from 1998 to 2004 when The Cobalt came out. We see them traded with nearly or over 200,000 mules on them all the time. And the Pontiac Sunfire was a Cavalier variant. My best friend has a '99 GT imported from Canada with the rare DOHC motor with less than 50,000 miles on it and won't give it up.

[Diclotican]

32. TheFarseer

TheFarseer

And that is bad, when you think about the small segment of the car industry, just as an afterthoughts, If the US car industry was thinking about small, but good quality cars, then US would get a part back of that segment to. Today they se to have almost forgotten that segment of industry all together...

I am not sure about the GM Metro, but 100.000 miles is nothing.. Compared to most japanese cars.. My old Toyota have more than 313.000km under the hood, and are still going very strong.. The engine of that car is possible the best part of the whole car:evilgrin: A Civic would live forever as you say. As long as you keep a aye on the problem areas...

You _can_ manufacture in the high end of the marked also. If you keep a aye on the low end of the marked. The US car manufactures have been sleeping for a long time when it come to the low end marked, and it shows.. Even Volvo, now owned by Ford, was a car who most could afford.. To Ford get their hand on the car, and resembled it to something it never was.. Today Volvo are a expensive, car, who cost more than 400.000 KR for a brand new car... That even the fact that Volvo never was a inexpensive car in the first place.. But Volvo was, and are a reliable car then:eyes: But as pointed out, if you can pay a rather inexpensive car, a Japanese or Korean for half what you use to pay for a american car, you might pay for the japanese car instead. And even get a better deal when it come to insurance, and garantie with the car.. 3 year or 100.000km is standard in Norway for a brand new car.. And Toyota have even given "life" garanti at the body if you pay for a brand new car:eyes:

The Ford Taurus was a good car, when it was coming out.. I indeed liked the Taurus, even that I get my licenses in 1995 so I guess I never get to own that car. But as you pointed out here. Ford get side traced by SUV and Trucks.. The Japanese cars on the other hand, managed to do it Right, when they was building car who was better, reliable and cost-effective. When you have to pay maybe 5 dollar for a liter, you go for the most reliable and cost-effective car, and not what is a petrol hog... And US manufactures have since, good know when, never been specially god at exactly cost-effective car.. Even that many of the high end cars indeed look nice...

SUV is stylish, and nice to se at. But to expensive to my taste. Even if I was being a millionaire I would not get a SUV, not an american then.. Both BMW, Mercedes and even some Japanese cars, have better and more reliable SUV out there.. Even Volvo have SUV who are better than the most of american cars... But it cost little to get then...

If US car industry are to survive as US CAR INDUSTRY, they have to think HARD and try to push back when it come to all segment of the industry. Not just building more meaner looking SUV Who use 2.2l at 10 km... The US car industry have to build Better, smaller, and inexpensive car, who can appeal to more than the SUV are doing.. Think about it, if Ford decide to produce a midzize car, who can be run by Hybrids.. It would possible been the day for FORD.. Yes they CLAIM they are doing a lot of recuarge into hybrid cars. But as long as Toyota for some year now, have had a car who are hybrid, and are been more and more stylish by the year. Then the plans Ford may have be to little to late. Ford should KNOW that the car industry is a industry who are been transformed almost at a daily basis. It was FORD who revolutions the whole Industry. Every car manufactures have must been teatched by the ford way of things.. It would be more than histories irony, if Ford itself was to implode, or being taken over by the japanese car industry in the end...

I hope that the car industry in US was to realise that the world are bigger than just the United States of America. And that the rest of the world can do better withouth this bug SUV american have a love to. If US car industry would admit that they have to do something to not be killed, then it would be a shange of heart. And then maybe even a shange of industry. Today Japan, Korea, european car industry, and even China have a car industry who are mutch more competible than the US are. And it looks like US are so in love with their SUV that they are not seering what is happening, righ under their nose yet. And if they are not carefully, they may discover that even in US the SUV are not selling good anymore... And then, as you point out, what then?...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Romulox]

41. Geo Metro = Suzuki Swift (Made in Japan)

Geo Prizm = Toyota Corolla

Pontiac Vibe = Toyota Matrix

"Your point that they are not putting much effort into foreign markets is well taken also."

Ford and GM have significant market share in Europe, and GM is quite successful in China.

[Xithras]

44. Only true for two years.

The third year of production, and for the remainder of its run, the Metro was produced in Canada.

[Romulox]

47. It was a wretched car when it was made in Japan

But I don't expect moving production to Canada helped much.:(

[Xithras]

52. I disagree. It could hit 65MPG with a tailwind.

I had an ex with a Metro XFi that never gave her any problems. It was a flimsy little thing with lots of plastic, but she liked it and it was reliable. I think her only complaint about it was its lack of A/C (most Metros had A/C, but not the XFi).

The only real problems occurred when owners failed to have their EGR valves cleaned. They'd plug up, start blowing oil out, and waste the rings. A quick shot of carb cleaner into the valve at every oil change kept that from happening. It was a small price to pay for owning the most fuel efficient mass produced car in American history.

[Romulox]

55. My buddy's 1990 Metro started shaking from side to side at highway speed

(65 mph at the time.) I've ridden in go-carts with more frame integrity!:scared:

[Xithras]

65. I doubt it was frame integrity.

The Metro had such a short wheelbase that Suzuki gave the U.S. models a squishy suspension to soften up the ride around town (the made-for-Japan models rode like a skateboard). That squishy suspension made them sway a bit at high speed. Interestingly, this wasn't a problem for the XFi. That car was built for commuting, so they came stock with stiffer springs.

Non-XFi owners simply had to put the stiffer XFi shocks on their car, or put a better riding thid party set of shocks in. Other than that, wobbles are usually caused by suspension or rim damage. Can't fault Suzuki for that.

[leveymg]

10. Has something to do with no plug-in hybrids sold with rooftop photovolatic panels. Complete package.

Make your own volts at home, juice up the plug-in, sell the excess back to the grid to pay off the rest.

We Finance.

The first company that sells (and finances) a package like this will make a billion dollars in profit the first year.

[Hobarticus]

12. And I bet the house it won't be a US company....

Which is why it's so damned frustrating.

[DainBramaged]

16. Have you heard about the Volt???

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

[Hobarticus]

18. Yes I have...

But judging by the business model and past performance, I'm not overly optimistic. One or two bones thrown to consumers a year followed by breathless exclamations of "we're going green" ain't going to cut it any more.

[DainBramaged]

20. So, becaue Toyota makes the Prius, they get a pass on the rest of their iron?

:eyes:

[Hobarticus]

22. When did I say that?

Thought this was about the US auto industry.

[DainBramaged]

24. It's a legitimate question

[Hobarticus]

25. Not really. What are you getting at?

If you're going to change the subject, I'll ask, what's the point you're trying to make by doing so?

[DainBramaged]

26. Was busy at work, sorry I didn't answer sooner

You accused the Domestic auto industry of basically "too little too late" or something similar to that statement, and I posted link to show that Chevy (GM) is way ahead of the other manufacturers in adopting new technology for the future needs of the consume. So many here think that a 25MPH Tahoe is a waste, but for so many people with large families and for future truck requirements, that technology is so valuable. NONE of the Japanese are considering large vehicle hybrids, even though THOSE are the bulk of their sales.


I didn't take a swipe at the Domestics here, I simply wanted to make an example of the stupidity of some in the dealer network who don't even understand basic grammar. I didn't change the subject.

[Hobarticus]

51. Understood. I did veer off-subject...

I realize now that you were making a comment about grammar, and not a general assessment of the auto industry.

The point I was trying to make is, in response to your post re: the Volt, if you're going to hold up the Volt as an example of "forward-thinking" by domestic manufacturers, be prepared to acknowledge the fact that by the time the Volt is on the market by the end of 2010, per Chevy's website, Toyota's Prius will have been on the market for nine years, having been introduced worldwide in 2001. Maybe I'm cynical, but it's hard to be impressed by the Volt when Chevy's a decade behind the curve set by Toyota. That's all.

[Diclotican]

33. DainBramaged

DainBramaged

Even the rest of the Iron CARS Toyota might have, have a better mileage compared to the same size in american cars... You have to remember that... Even my OLD Toyota, who are no plastic car, have a great mileage, ca .5L at 10km. And with civilized driving, I can get down to 35-42 a mil when using 5 gear a lot.. (Yes I driving manual, not automatic) Off course NEW cars would use a lot less petrol than my old car are doing, but even then... I have not seeing a small or midzise american using less than .8 lately... And that is when you are driving the car GENTLY. and not in a City...

SO even the Iron part of Toyota are doing it better than for the most american cars. And that is THAT who are being the trust that have doing Toyota to the most selling car in the world.. NOT their Pickup and their SUV.. By the way. Seeing what BBC Top Gear was doing to a old Toyota Pickup in a coupe of shows?.. Even after the fact that it was standing on the top of a BUILDING who was been demolished. The dam car started. And that was a car who was being treated BAD in many shows.. But then the car WAS almost dead.. But the dam car started.. I would believe you DON'T get that experience if you was treating a comparable US Pickup the same way.. It would brake down, long before the Toyota Pickup was doing it I fear..

Maybe american car industry, should learn little from Japan now and then... I would guess, they even could learn little from european car industry, now hand then..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Xithras]

49. Panels on a car are generally a waste

There is a finite upper limit to the amount of power delivered from the sun, and that power level is fairly low when you're talking about compact installations. A Prius, for example, has a 1.5Kwh battery, so when people look up the numbers and see that the sun drops about 1Kwh her square meter, it looks like they'd be a good deal. A solar panel alone can recharge the battery in 90 minutes, right? Wrong.

First, that kind of energy level is only maintained for a brief time at high noon. Your total energy will fall off substantially. Northern Arizona and southern Nevada, where solar radiation is the highest, actually averages .75Kwh over 12 daylight hours (now a 2 hour recharge). Los Angeles and San Francisco average .5Kwh (now a 3 hour recharge). If you're in Atlanta, that number drops all the way down to .375Kwh (now a 4 hour recharge). At least Atlanta isn't New York or Chigago, where only .29Kwh averaged falls on the city per day (now a 5 hour recharge).

The numbers above, of course, aren't even close to accurate, because so far I've ignored a few VERY important facts. Most importantly, the most efficient Spectrolab solar cells on the market are only 40% efficient. Your 2 hour Arizona recharge just jumped to 2.8 hours, your 4 hour Atlanta recharge just jumped to 5.6 hours, and your 5 hour Chicago recharge just jumped to 7 hours.

The numbers also ignore the fact that the panels won't be oriented properly. The panels, to maintain mileage or electric range, will need to be flush with the top of the car. That means they'll be pointed straight up instead of being oriented toward the sun. That will reduce efficiency by about 40%. Chicago is now up to 9.8 hours to charge. Atlanta is up to 7.8 hours.

And what do you get for letting your car charge all day? 10? Maybe 20 miles of all electric range? Of course, that doesn't factor in the reality that you will never again be able to park in the shade, never be able to park in the shadow of a building, and will need to avoid parking garages. The first thing most people are going to do when climbing back into their now-sweltering but partially charged electrics is crank the A/C all the way up, which will burn off most of that newly gained power making the proposition even more dubious.

Now here's the nastiest bit. Those amazing 40% panels are designed for space use and have to be etched like processors to function properly. Being off by even a few nanometers in their construction will cause them to not operate. That's why these panels, in mass production, will never get under about $10,000 a square meter (they're MUCH more expensive than that right now...you could buy a house with what these would cost you for your car right now). If you want to put NORMAL solar panels on your car, your efficiency drops to a maximum of 20%, and you can double the numbers above. It'll now take 20 hours to charge your car in New York state...since the sun isn't actually up that long, that means it will never charge all the way up. There will never be any excess to sell back into the grid because the car can't fully charge itself in the first place. Even worse, ALL of these numbers are based on the 1.5Kwh battery in the Prius. The upcoming Volt uses a 16Kwh battery to improve its range to 40 miles. Multiply the charging times above by 10.6 if you want to know how long it will take to charge THAT thing with car-top solar panels.

Rooftop panels only make sense in certain vehicles, and even then only in certain areas of the Southwest. They're a waste of money that will NEVER pay for themselves (much less make a profit) for the rest of the country. Solar has a place, but the top of your car isn't one of them. The odds of a solar-equipped electric or plug-in hybrid ever recouping the costs of the panel upgrade are virtually nil. As a society, we're better off pushing for increased solar power usage in the grid, and then make solar power available THAT way by making grid plugs readily available.

[leveymg]

67. I was talking about rooftop installation on the house.

Thanks for the calculations, anyway.

[Xithras]

69. Oh. LOL!

I misunderstood the post. I'll go hide in shame now :)

[Ichingcarpenter]

14. Auto Executives favor McCain by 70% in New Poll

Regarding the three leading presidential candidates, 70% favored Republican Senator John McCain.
However, the survey indicated that the favor was due less to McCain's record regarding the automobile industry and more in juxtaposition to those of rival Democratic candidates Senators Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama, the latter garnering the most opposition with 57% of respondents viewing an Obama administration as having a potentially negative impact on the industry.

The survey also addressed the executives' attitudes towards the future of the carmaking industry in America, in which not a single respondent conveyed a positive outlook, while 87% projected a negative outlook with the remaining 13% responding neutrally.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/02/poll-auto-execs-favor-mccain-by-70/

No surprise with this poll

[DainBramaged]

17. Obama, hope for us dopes, not the mopes in Corporate America

And that's the way it should be!!!

[Stinky The Clown]

21. And the commercials I notice on teeve are the ones for the Escalade

A Suburban on steroids. HummerJr. WorldClassGasHog.

[DainBramaged]

23. The masses still buy image, not practicality

And money trumps common sense

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

34. Naa what *really wrong*

Is a total lack of vision. The myopia of the US auto industry is the stuff of legends all they had to do was develop *1* hybrid a decade ago and they would be sitting pretty right now. The technology was there, the money was there, but they were so lazy and short sighted that when the rains stopped coming (gas gets expensive) they are stuck with a lot full of SUV's..

Meanwhile Foreign automakers have done the leg work of investing in the future and sit really pretty right now. My wife and I leased out last Minivan from Chevy but our next will be a Kia. Not because of the Gas mileage but safety and quality.. I would really rather buy American but my Caravan has been a nightmare, glitch after glitch...

[Romulox]

37. Agree 100%. This is why I support outsourcing IT work, too.

I would rather support American workers, but on the other hand, fuck 'em.

:sarcasm:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

40. Lets see...

I can drive my kids around in car (a) or car (b) car A is safer, cheaper, and gets better mileage but car B is made here...

BTW Buying foreign cars screws corporations more than workers, many foreign car makers produce cars here in the US..

--

Tell you what you have two pieces of software in front of you

1) is safe, cheaper, and is better for the environment
2) is expensive, prone to being hacked, and the production and use pollutes more

Which are you going to buy? would the nation of origin factor in?

--

My can (not the family minivan) will probably be an American car American cars (other than my first hand me down) are all Ive ever owned and I have stayed with them *because* they are American companies but they have shown no faith in improvement.

[Romulox]

43. I said I agree with you. I just don't see why the cost/benefit analysis should be limited to cars

American IT workers = inefficient and overpriced
American Teachers = inefficient and overpriced
American doctors = inefficient and overpriced
American construction workers = inefficient and overpriced
American engineers = inefficient and overpriced

I support outsourcing every last job so long as I can save .02 in the process. I join you in saying: UNION? Whatever!

"BTW Buying foreign cars screws corporations more than workers, many foreign car makers produce cars here in the US.."

This is laughable. Most auto jobs are in mom and pop parts suppliers. Japanese source their parts in Asia.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

45. Whatever...

It aint just about the money guy its about safety and I guess I'm just damn un-american for putting my families safety over your job...

[Romulox]

46. How many times do I have to tell you that I agree with you???

I'm just pointing out that your philosophy cuts more than one way.

By all means, buy the Kia with a clear conscience--but just don't expect any favors in return (that's how every man for himself works.) You support free trade for my job, I support free trade for your job too! The exciting thing is that the number of jobs that can be outsourced grows every day.

I read last night that Dell is laying off 8,800 people in Austin, and I thought to myself, Great news! Finally! Now maybe we can get some efficient (not to mention safe!) computers.

:rofl:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

48. If I make software that puts your kids at risk of death

Believe me Ill hold no angst if you buy something made overseas..

BTW I don't support free trade but nice try.. I don't think we should be letting cheap chinese cars in here and if other countries like Japan want to make it difficult to sell in their market Im all for tariffs and doing the same.

I would spend more money for a safe car, its not a slap to auto workers. When corporations in the US start enabling their workers to make safe cars, to make fuel efficient cars the industry will do well..

I have been against free trade before NAFTA was law and I am to this day..

--

You can say you 'agree with me' all you want but you continue to distort my position to be against American workers...

[Romulox]

57. My wife just got an American made sedan with 5 star crash rating in all major tests

You are not making much sense now. :silly:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

64. Im not in the market for a Sedan..

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/13/Autos/prius_crash_test/index.htm

"The best-performing minivan was the Kia Sedona which also earned an overall "Gold Top Safety Pick" rating."

"The Honda Odyssey, Toyota Sienna and Nissan Quest minivans all earned "Good" ratings for front and side impact protection. The Odyssey earned a "Marginal" rating for whiplash protection in rear impacts while the Sienna and Quest were given "Poor" ratings."

"The worst-performing minivans in these safety tests were the Dodge Caravan. the closely related Chrysler Town & Country and the Mazda MPV. Those minivans received "Acceptable" ratings for front impact protection and "Poor" ratings for side impact when tested without head-protecting side airbags. When tested with head protecting side impact airbags, the Caravan and Town & Country received "Acceptable" ratings for side impact protection. The Mazda MPV was not tested with side airbags."

So I can buy the safest or the worst performing... Hmmmmm...

--

On edit:

I will miss the stow-and-go that my caravan has but safety first..

[Zynx]

53. There's a huge difference between losing a job to Germany or Japan and losing

a job to India. Germany and Japan have approximately equal labor protections to ours, if not slightly better. India and that whole region, not so much.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

54. Thats huge!

we need a smart trade policy which both protects our interest and serves humanity..

Your tariff rate will be based on

1) Human rights record
2) Environment regulations
3) Worker rights
4) standard of living
5) Our national interest

I can see nations like Canada, South Korea, Australia, and most of the EU having free trade. But China, India, Mexico? You have to be kidding...

For every point you fail you get a certain percent tacked on..

[Romulox]

59. That's exactly what Clinton, Gore et al. prevented by signing up to WTO

The US may not impose tariffs on country with poor environmental, worker protection, or human rights records if they are also signatories to the treaty; this is why I have always suspected Al Gore's self-proclaimed "environmentalism". How can you support no-holds-barred free trade with the likes of China, and at the same time push tighter environmental regulation at home?

The result is entirely predictable: a decimation of the US manufacturing sector, to be replaced by a Chinese manufacturing industry which is virtually unregulated.

[Romulox]

56. No, that makes no sense.

Losing a job to Germany hurts just as much as losing a job to India, both in terms of the impact on the individual and the impact on the larger economy.

What I think you mean is this: because Germany and Japan have labor protections roughly equivalent to our own, it is not unfair, as they are competing on an equal field.

This may or may not be true, but it hurts the out of work US worker just as much either way.

[Zynx]

58. Losing jobs to fair competition is just fine by me.

It happens all the time. I'm not going to cry about it. Losing it to unfair competition or subsidized competition is very different.

[Romulox]

61. That's fine--that's the neoliberal "free trade" philosophy.

I am saddened that the Democratic party has moved from the party of the people to the party of cheap labor, but I am obviously on the wrong side of history on this one.

My point is simply that it applies to you and your job too. As I said, that's why I support outsourcing of white collar jobs too. :hi:

[Zynx]

66. Democrats were always historically the free trade party. Look it up.

Free trade is beneficial between equal trading partners. If we were to say we don't want competition in industry, why not have just a bunch of state sanctioned monopolies? Then there wouldn't be any competitive job losses.

Losing jobs due to being outcompeted by a better managed firm is just fine. We shouldn't protect weakness and inefficiency.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

62. No it does not hurt nearly as bad

(1) A German is more likely than someone in India to buy a US product thus helping create jobs here
(2) A German is more likely to be able to worship as the please
(3) A Germans job is likely more environmentally friendly
(4) A German is likely to have a job with protections

--

Most of all outsourcing to Germany is far *less likely* than to India because the cost of the workers are about the same..

[KansDem]

42. My approved...*what?* (nt)

[BlooInBloo]

60. The same as what's wrong with all large American corps....

... The interests of the executives are wildly different from the interests of the shareholders.

[KillCapitalism]

68. LOL at that ad!

I bet this guy ran out and got his auto loan there...