"Writing is a form of thinking".

[kentuck]

From a letter in the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/09/opinion/l09students.html?ref=opinion

<snip>
I am baffled that some educators are encouraged by the news that a third of America’s eighth graders and a fourth of the nation’s high school seniors can write proficiently (news article, April 4).

These results are no cause for celebration. Writing is a form of thinking. Alarmingly, we must assume that the vast majority of American students do not think well at all. And that they seem to get worse at it as they go from middle school to high school.

The nation’s educators should be dedicating every available resource to redress this calamitous situation. An entire generation is growing up without the ability to articulate ideas in a coherent fashion. How can we expect them to advance our society without this most basic of tools?

Hugh Siegel
New York, April 4, 2008

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Could it be that the whole purpose in 'dumbing down' American students is so they can never

'advance our society'?

[kentuck]

2. I don't know if that is the "purpose"...?

But it certainly seems to be the effect.

[Supersedeas]

3. certainly makes you wonder about their priorities

[datasuspect]

4. wtf? r u crzy? brb rofl bff

[EOTE]

47. Lol, ur 2 mch!

Can i haz cheezburger?

I honestly think that if someone from even 20 years ago happened upon a typical chat board of today and saw the discourse that goes on there, he/she would most likely think that these were special needs kids communicating. Is it really necessary to completely bastardize the English language in order to save a second or two typing?

[cynatnite]

5. My son has kept a journal since he was in first grade...

I guess that's not a common thing for most schools.

[Fumesucker]

6. People who can think clearly and rationally

Are much harder to propagandize.

Given that a great deal of what government and business does is based on false or misleading propaganda then it is clear that it is not in the interest of either government or business to promote clear and rational thinking.

[lapfog_1]

7. functional illiterates... it's the goal the oligarchy has set for the rest of us - n/t

[datasuspect]

10. with one caveat

they teach critical thinking skills sufficient to make informed consumer choices between multiple similar products.

[lapfog_1]

12. Sarcasm... right?

Always include a :sarcasm: tag as a help to the reader (we can't hear it dripping from your voice as you type!)

[datasuspect]

14. no sarcasm

[Winterblues]

15. Ipod or MP3?

That is the question that dividing the world..:shrug:

[datasuspect]

16. precisely

pergo or laminate

dodge or chevy

plasma or lcd

[lapfog_1]

21. But that isn't taught...

and, like most coin flips, people don't really choose.

They mostly pick whichever is the cheapest UNLESS there is some sort of "cool" factor to picking a more expensive brand (Ipod, rolex, etc).

Sony failed to understand this and didn't make "Betamax" a "cool" product, so VHS won on price point, but essentially the products were the same. Consumers were never educated enough to really understand the differences. And our school system does not teach us concepts such as TCO and the like. At least, it didn't when I went to school (which is some years ago, back when writing was taken a bit more seriously).

[datasuspect]

24. i'm sure they make kids write simple compare/contrast essays

i don't think they are creating a generation of illiterates, they still have to provide them with rudimentary skills.

and my forays among suburban tribes in the US taught me the central importance of making the best consumer choices. intensely focused conversations about products around dinner tables and summertime swimming pools showed me that embryonic strains of critical thought still exist.

granted, they aren't discussing the nature of being, but being able to list off the features of two "different" DVRs or laptops requires some basic ratiocination.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. Actually, at the time, Beta was the superior product.

4 head, freeze frame, etc., that VHS didn't have. Eventually, of course, VHS got all that - just in time to switch to DVDs.

[lapfog_1]

49. Beta was technically superior, but lost out to VHS

because of cost issues. Sony failed to make it "cool" to own the more expensive, but essentially the same, technology.

[EOTE]

48. VHS wasn't cool either. It was the porn industry's backing of VHS

that allowed it to win the format war. In terms of technology, Betamax was a superior product. Its tape had a higher ferrite density that allowed for higher resolution playback.

[MedleyMisty]

26. You play mp3s on iPods

so it's not really a choice between them?

And really, when I think about the causes behind Americans being stupid and passive and ignorant, listening to music is not on the top of my list. I don't get the irrational hatred for the iPod that is displayed on DU - paid Microsoft employees, maybe?

[Nickster]

Exactly, you can't have a pool of people that are easily exploitable if you give them education.

There can't be haves without the have nots.

[stillcool]

8. Too expensive?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/04/education/04writing.html?ref=opinion
U.S. Students Achieve Mixed Results on Writing Test
By SAM DILLON
Published: April 4, 2008

“American students’ writing skills are deteriorating,” said Will Fitzhugh, founder of The Concord Review, a journal that features history research papers written by high school students.

Mr. Fitzhugh expressed skepticism that the national assessment accurately measured students’ overall writing skills, because, he said, it tested only their ability to write brief essays jotted out in half an hour.

“The only way to assess the kind of writing that students will have to do in college,” he said, “is to have them write a term paper, and then have somebody sit down and grade it. And nobody wants to do that, because it’s too costly.”

[SoCalDem]

9. My son's 5th grade teacher had each kid write an autobiography

Her daughter had a connection to publishing, and those little kids worked and worked & edited and edited and proof-read and proof-read, and each one (only 11 in the class) came up with a very nice book that they wrote..all by themselves

She videoed their progress, and each parent got a tape of their year of writing..

She's still his favorite teacher and he still stops in to see her from time to time..

Thank you Mrs Gould..for making a reader & writer of my kid..

having an elementary school teacher with a PHD, is never a bad idea..neither is the Gate program, where class size enables the teacher to truly teach & know each child :)

[LibDemAlways]

11. I went back to work this year as a substitute teacher.

One day I was called upon to "teach" an 11th grade honors English class. The students were writing essays based on symbolism in The Scarlet Letter. The regular teacher left me a note requesting that I look the essays over during her free period and make corrections strictly for grammar/punctuation. I waded through a few of them, but they were so poorly written I started to get a headache. Most of what was on the page was "filler" - long, rambling sentences designed to take up space on the page with little or no thought to making a coherent point. They were basically unreadable.

No Child Left Behind apparently makes no provision for teaching kids to critically analyze a literary work and none for formulating a thoughtful, coherent essay. If kids taking Honors English are so totally lacking these skills, imagine what the kids in the regular classes are doing.

[Fumesucker]

19. I consider myself a fairly decent writer..

I'm late middle aged and have been reading voraciously and writing ever since I can remember.

I wouldn't want to be stuck writing an essay on "symbolism in The Scarlet Letter", I'd probably end up doing a lot of "filler" too.

"Symbolism in the Scarlet Letter" is a MEGO assignment, My Eyes Glaze Over.

Or at least it would be for me.

[LibDemAlways]

23. Of course the assignment sucks, but it is what it is.

Seems to me 11th grade Honors students should be able to pinpoint a couple of the central symbols in the novel and write a coherent page or two explaining them. The essays I saw were full of stuff along the lines of - Nathaniel Hawthorne uses many symbols in his highly symbolic novel which he titled The Scarlet Letter and this essay will examine some of the important ones which I discovered reading the book. And they went downhill from there.

[Fumesucker]

29. If you are used to distilling an argument down to its very core..

A page or two can be quite difficult to fill.

"The present letter is a very long one, simply because I had no leisure to make it shorter."

-Blaise Pascal.

[LibDemAlways]

39. That's true, too. However, a novel which is rich in

symbolism should provide fodder for at least a handwritten page worth of coherent commentary on the subject - perhaps four or five lines for each symbol.

[kineneb]

42. painting/drawing a picture

would be easier for me than the writing... just saying not all brains work the same...

[Fumesucker]

45. There are those who perceive symbolism easily and those who do not.

Frankly I suspect that a considerable amount of the symbolism that English teachers like to draw from some works was never deliberately put in the work in the first place.

As humans we are pattern recognition machines and we will often recognize patterns where there isn't really a pattern there to see.

Rorschach ink blots are a telling example.. People "see" all kinds of things in those inkblots, none of which are really there.

It's interesting that many people who "get" literary crit distinctly *don't* "get" math. My daughter is quite a good writer and had no problem with any subject in school except math.. She failed algebra one three times despite the fact that if I sat with her when she was doing her homework and at each stage said "ok, what comes next?" she could do the work. If I didn't say "what comes next?" she would just sit there and stare at the problem with a blank look. She honestly could not ask herself "what comes next?".

Not everyone sees the world the same way and trying to judge someone's intelligence by how well they do literary crit is distinctly unfair to those whose minds do not work along those lines.

[LibDemAlways]

50. Students who are taking an 11th grade Honors course in

American Lit should be able to write a coherent one page essay on a topic discussed in class. If a student isn't capable, he or she shouldn't be enrolled in Honors in the first place.

[Fumesucker]

51. Ummm...

You did not specify when you first posted that it was an American lit class..

That does put a slightly different light on things.

[readmoreoften]

53. Maybe it's not your daughter's intelligence that's the problem here.

It sounds like you're biased against her interests--thinking that literature is not much more than what teachers "read into things." Sounds to me like your daughter has math phobia--most likely due to bad teachers. There may be other reasons why your daughter's eyes are glazing over--why rush to assume that she's "one of those literary people" who just can't get it?

Mathematics is often taught poorly, and it's been proven over and again for decades now that math teachers are biased towards male students: case in point, the president of Harvard citing innate math inabilities in women. Because math is pure abstraction, and we live in a market economy, math teachers try to point out the 'reason' for studying higher math: you can be an engineer or a computer programmer. Wow! That's a real turn-on to someone interested in literature and history! Maybe your daughter sees no reason to study math just like you see no reason to search for literary symbolism. (And by the way, considering that there was an entire movement of "Symbolist Poetry" you might be surprised how often the author actually does intend for the symbol to be there.)

I had no interest in any of the practical applications teachers cited as the reason to study math. I was a female student interested in literature, politics, and philosophy. What could philosophy have to do with math!? The fact that this question was left unanswered for me shows the poverty of education in this country.

I hated math. Now I'm studying Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory as an adult, in part because of new paths in continental philosophy as well as--gasp--symbolic structures in Latin American literature.

You might want to hire a tutor. Someone who can explain math in terms even a lit geek can understand.

[Fumesucker]

54. That was over a dozen years ago..

I'm a grandparent of three now, that particular bird has long since flown the nest.

I'm aware that math is often taught poorly and I know my daughter is quite intelligent, it's not possible to be a good writer without a modicum of intelligence.

Additionally I'm aware that symbolism is deliberate in some literature, I just think that it is often found in places it wasn't deliberately put. Usually I'm pretty careful to write what I actually mean and if you go back and reread the post you are replying to I think you'll see I said just what I'm reiterating here.

You also missed the point where she did indeed "get it" if I just prompted her with a "what comes next?". Funny thing is, my daughter did a stint as a part time bookkeeper so she really isn't that bad at some types of math.

I find it a trifle amusing that you misread what I wrote as much as you did because of your own particular biases.

[kineneb]

38. literary criticism- bleh

math, science, computers, woodshop, even auto repair would come before I would voluntarily take a lit-crit class...iiieeeeeehhh!

Not everyone can think that way, nor should they. I want my plumber to understand pipes and water; I don't give a damn if he/she can analyze the writing style of Thackeray.

That is why my major was music and music history. The teachers don't give a damn about style, only form and content.

[loyalsister]

13. Caution...

I think we should be more cautious about how we judge. Kids learn to speak and therefore write from their parents. It is the values of language that trickled from Gen X who got it from boomers reflected in the writing we currently see in schools.

Beyond that, language evolves. I would argue that computer conversation and merging cultures have contributed to evolution in language.

Is it possible that some writing is more coherently expressed than suggested, because the reader may not be well versed in the "dialect"?

The media has an extremely clever dumbing down procedure.
Making kids look dumber than they are makes the schools look worse than they are. Validating the Republican stereotypes rather than pointing out legitimate problems.

Taking a real look at the kids and meeting them where they are might lead us to discover that they are smarter than we thought.

[kentuck]

17. When I try to listen to rap music...

I have a very difficult time understanding the words. However, young folks are grasping every word. I feel inadequate and stupid in some way. It's almost like either they or I speak a different language?

[loyalsister]

22. I have had some explained to me

A local rap musician explained something to me once.
I'm not not sure if it was a word used more frequently in rap or just slang more commonly used in a younger generation.
"Mosh" was a central word in the song that I didn't understand. Once I got that, I understood the song.
It's not uncommon for me to be a little unsure of what the younger generation is saying. There are language additions over time, and expansions to the meaning and usage of language.

Remember how Einstein did it with time?

[Trillo]

18. If articulating ideas is THE measure of societal advancement,

then how much are 8th graders that can write well making? (Since money is the end all be all measure of success in our corporatist society)

If this writer's conception has grains of truth, then who's taking the 8th graders money?

[kentuck]

20. Bottom line.

It's enslavement.

[BlooInBloo]

25. Yup. Thinking, talking, writing, reading - all the same.

[Trillo]

36. Slightly disagree.

I've read somewhere, actually, I'm quite certain I've read it in a number of places, that writing and speaking are managed by different parts of the brain.

[BlooInBloo]

43. Multiplicity doesn't disagree with what I said.

[Trillo]

46. I don't even know what that means.

Verbal Vs. Nonverbal Processing

Left brain students have little trouble expressing themselves in words. Right brain students may know what they mean, but often have trouble finding the right words. The best illustration of this is to listen to people give directions. The left brain person will say something like "From here, go west three blocks and turn north on Vine Street. Go three or four miles and then turn east onto Broad Street." The right brain person will sound something like this: "Turn right (pointing right), by the church over there (pointing again). Then you will pass a McDonalds and a Walmart. At the next light, turn right toward the BP station." So how is this relevant to planning study strategies? Right brain students need to back up everything visually. If it's not written down, they probably won't remember it. And it would be even better for right brain students to illustrate it. They need to get into the habit of making a mental video of things as they hear or read them. Right brain students need to know that it may take them longer to write a paper and the paper may need more revision before it says what they want it to say. This means allowing extra time when a writing assignment is due.
http://www.web-us.com/BRAIN/LRBrain.html#Verbal

Of course, it's not from a science journal, and is typical of what I seem to recall.:hi:

[SoCalDem]

27. Here's something to think about too..

On slow nights when we were bored at work, we would pull apps and laugh our asses off at the "personal essay" parts of the applications..

People WILL read what you wrote..and often, enjoy the hell out of what you wrote..and you may never know why you didn't get the job..

and sometimes it could be because of how your name might look an a name tag..

We had a guy apply once whose name was Phuc..and another whose name was Bing Bang :rofl:

a girl applied once, whose name was Princess..

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

30. Writing, like being president, is hard work. (n/m)

[Jim__]

31. I guess the part that's encouraging is that a higher percentage of 8th graders ...

... can write proficiently than high school seniors. That is progress, unless we assume that this percentage will drop by the time the 8th graders are high school seniors.

Granted that both percentages are disastrously low; if we're getting better; there may be some hope.

[kentuck]

32. But it seems that the people that never shut up...

have the most difficult time writing?? Why is that? :-)

[Fumesucker]

33. Good writing is a process of elimination

Eliminating facts, ideas and thoughts that are not directly related to your subject.

The more words you have to start with the harder the process of elimination becomes.

Most of those who talk constantly actually say very little that is truly meaningful.

[kentuck]

34. True

. :-)

[kineneb]

35. not for me

Why is it American schools think we should all be great writers?

I hate writing (as in serious "writing," not my usual stream of consciousness drivel). And I despise "creative writing;" I got a D in a high school English class because I refused to write the stupid essays and write stories. Tech writing, where I explain a process in plain language is just slightly easier.

According to one theory of learning, there are three major ways a person can learn/communicate:

1. visually
2. aurally/verbally
3. kinestheticly

My learning style is visual/aural-

I hear music and can remember tunes, pitches, etc. I can "see" things in my head, sketch them and build/sew/paint them. I can take things apart in my head to figure out how they are constructed and make 2-dimensional patterns from 3-dimensional objects.

But for writing, I have to translate the images into words. The image always comes first. If I see words on paper, I can remember them. Reading is not a problem. Speak words to me, I will almost instantly forget them unless I write it down and see it.

But I hate writing. Essays for college were a form of torture for me. I never wrote my master's thesis, because it gave me a panic attack thinking about it. Short comments, such as these, I can handle, but even letter writing is difficult.

[Fumesucker]

37. There is a Chinese aphorism

I hear and I forget.

I see and I remember.

I do and I understand.

Judging by your post above you are someone who says things as clearly and directly as possible with as few words as possible.

That is just about the antithesis of "creative writing" as it is commonly thought of by English teachers.

Or at least that is my take on it.

[kineneb]

41. you got it

My teachers never understood it, probably because of the common perception that females are more "verbal" than males. Not in my family- Mom is a senior progamer-analyst and hates writing as much as I do. My brother writes better than either of us, and finds it easy.


essay...root canal? essay...root canal? can't think which is more painful... and don't ask me to write a story...arg.

[kentuck]

56. Sounds like something Yoda would say?

:-)

Do or not do - there is no try.

[EFerrari]

44. Essays were torture for me because I think in images

when I think at all, lol.

I eventually figured it out and majored in English. Later as an instructor, there seemed to be very very few students that I couldn't help figure out how to write an essay in a way that worked for them but we had to start with their own process, not some idea of "the right way" that I dragged into the room. One student had such a history of being tortured by English that he showed up every day wearing headphones. He could barely stand to even be in the room. We didn't get very far because the poor guy had English PTSD. :(

[suston96]

40. Writing is the result of thinking....Wait....never mind....nt

[Fireweed247]

52. We are quickly heading to Idiocracy

This explains why Bush is still 'leading' the country.

[Toasterlad]

55. I've Said It Before, and I'll Say It Again: Children Are Stupid.