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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:55 PM
Original message
I'm debating a wingnut on Gloabal Warming, and he says...
This wingnut basically says there are 22,000 scientists who dispute Global Warming Theory and only a few hundred who support it. He also claims that the whole theory is a scam by the UN to grab more power.

What should I say to him? What sources should I point him to? And where is he getting HIS erroneous claptrap from, and how can I discredit his source(s)?
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BulletproofLandshark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. His sources = His own ass
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's pretty much what I already told him, but...
he keeps linking to some article from financial post. I kinda figure any financial industry rag would be siding with the energy producers and therefore lack credibility, but he keeps banging that drum.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. tell he has that backwards and then some
better yet, make him provide a source for his info.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. Go to Pharyngula!!!!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/">PZ Myers has been slapping these guys around with no problem!

Or, Bad Astronomy is always good.

The best thing to do is always keep them answering your questions.

Never take their word for anything make them explain themselves.

Authoritarians cannot stand anyone who questions them, so, if you do that, they will get pissed off and leave.

And it will be funny.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. Somebody who is that blind to the truth and facts,
can't be reasoned with.

Keep your blood pressure down and back away. He's obviously not rational.

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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ask him to provide you with a list of those 22,000 scientists.
Or don't even bother to argue with him. People like that revel in their own ignorance and are usually beyond help.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. yes, ask him for his source
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arbusto_baboso Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Heh, that did the trick! THANKS, GUYS!
He crawled away with his tail between his legs!
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. Good luck with that one.
He's deep in the propaganda.

When I run into one like that, I don't try to convince them on global warming. But rather, piece by piece try to explain that the steps taken to combat it are beneficial regardless of Climate Change.

i.e. Getting off fossil fuels cleans Our air, Our water and Our food supply. It also gets us off our dependence on foreign oil, and the baggage or war that comes with it.

I also tell them that investing in alternative energies will be a boom for Our economy and revive the middle class.

When their heads are buried that deep in the sand, change the frame.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. 3 simple questions
Is there a worldwide increase in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere?

Does the increased amount of CO2 in the atmosphere trap escaping radiation energy in the earths atmosphere (greenhouse effect)?

Does the trapped radiation energy in the earths atmosphere warm up the planet?

Ask him to disprove those 3 basic facts. He can't.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. Good Luck, But I Seriously Doubt He/She is Interested in Honest Debate
Sorry, but I think those arguing against the existence of global warming and the fact man is mainly responsible are bull shit artists and wannabes.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Don't waste your breath. He has been assimilated. n/t
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. He that asserts, must prove
Just making shit up out of thin air doesn't count for jack.

Cite your sources, or shut your lying piehole.
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Justin54B20L Donating Member (308 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. Send him to www.manpollo.org and watch the vids (nm)
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. Ha!
Edited on Fri Apr-11-08 06:32 PM by and-justice-for-all
It is just like them to switch things around so it looks as though the data somehow works in their favor. They do this shit all the time.

Global Warming is in fact supported by more than those who do not. There is a natural cycle to Earths climate, warmings and freezings, but our industry disrupts that natual cycle and that is only logical. You can not dump shit into the environment and not expect something to happen, that is just plan ignorant.

How exactly would Global Warming work in the UNs favor? please, that is absurd..what is this fearmongering over the UN anyway? I never understood that.

As with the Law Of Evolution, more scientist support it than those who discredit it. It all comes down to the evidence, creationist and global warming deniers can make claims all they want, but they never provide hard evidence in defence of their claims and therefore they do not have an argument.

Rethugs/wingnuts take everything for granted, never seeing the big picture. They have a use once and destroy mentality, they think money grows on trees and shrubCo is a messiah. Everything is in an endless supply and there are no consequences for their actions. They have the capacity of a rock.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. do a little research
From "A Guide to Facts and Fictions About Climate Change" from the UK Royal Society.(the world's oldest and
most respected scientific organization)
http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=2986

For instance, a
petition was circulated between 1999 and 2001 by a campaigning organisation called the Oregon
Institute of Science and Medicine (OISM), which called on the US Government to reject the Kyoto
Protocol. The petition claimed that “proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the
environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of
mankind”.
These extreme claims directly contradict the conclusions of the IPCC 2001 report, which states that
“reducing emissions of greenhouse gases to stabilize their atmospheric concentrations would delay
and reduce damages caused by climate change”.
The petition was circulated together with a document written by individuals affiliated to OISM and to
the George C Marshall Institute, another campaigning organisation. On 20 April 1998, the US National
Academy of Sciences (NAS) issued a warning about the document circulated with the petition because
it had been presented “in a format that is nearly identical to that of scientific articles published in the
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.” The statement pointed out: “The NAS Council
would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences
and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or
in any other peer-reviewed journal”.

--------
important to recognize that the American Association for the Advancement of Science,
which is urgently warning about climate change, has 100,000 members.
The American Geophysical Union has 50,000, American Meteorological Society,
11,000....
This project was a scam, originally sent out on stationary designed to look like it
came from the National Academy of Science. Of course, the real NAS disavows it, because
they have studied the issue a number of times and are deeply alarmed by gw.

question: if they have a valid point, why the need to deceive and falsify?
----------
http://mediamatters.org/items/200706060009

But the petition to which Hume and Solomon apparently referred, the Oregon Petition, has been disavowed by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), as Media Matters for America has noted. As Media Matters has also documented, many of the signatures on the petition apparently belong to people who are not climate experts -- and, in a few cases, are fictional characters.


wikipeidia:the Oregon petition

The petition had a covering letter from Frederick Seitz, who is a former president of the National Academy of Sciences, U.S.A. and an attached article supporting the petition. Seitz' six paragraph letter described the article as "an eight page review of information on the subject of 'global warming'."<8> The senior author of the article was Arthur B. Robinson, a biochemist. The second and third authors were Sallie Baliunas and Willie Soon, astrophysicists and prominent global warming skeptics. The fourth and final author was Zachary W. Robinson, Arthur Robinson's 21-year-old son.<9>
The article states that "over the past two decades, when CO2 levels have been at their highest, global average temperatures have actually cooled slightly" and says that this was based on comparison of satellite data (for 1979-1997) and balloon data from 1979-96. At the time the petition was written, this was unclear. Since then the satellite record has been revised, and shows warming. (See historical temperature record and satellite temperature measurements.)
The article that accompanied the petition was written in the style and format of a contribution to Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a scientific journal.<5> Raymond Pierrehumbert, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Chicago, said that it was "designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article…is a reprint and has passed peer review." Pierrehumbert also said the article was full of "half-truths".<10> F. Sherwood Rowland, who was at the time foreign secretary of the National Academy of Sciences, said that the Academy received numerous inquiries from researchers who "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them."<10>
After the petition appeared, the National Academy of Sciences said in news release that "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal."<11> It also said "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." The NAS further noted that its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."<12>
In a 2006 article the magazine Vanity Fair stated: "Today, Seitz admits that "it was stupid" for the Oregon activists to copy the academy's format. Still, he doesn't understand why the academy felt compelled to disavow the petition, which he continues to cite as proof that it is "not true" there is a scientific consensus on global warming"<13>
As of October 2007, the petition project website includes an article by Arthur Robinson, Noah E. Robinson and Willie Soon, published in 2007 in the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons. <14>
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frogcycle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. what you should say to him is
that you don't have time to listen to his blather

You have no chance in hell of influencing him one iota, so don't bother
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seasat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
18. The supposed 22,000 was based on a debunked phoney NAS paper
Here's media matters take on it. Here's also some more detail on it from Source Watch. It was an online petition based on a non-peer reviewed paper written and formatted to resemble a National Academy of Sciences publication. A letter accompanied the paper from a retired theoretical physicist, Fredrick Seitz, who was a former NAS chair. Seitz had supported such groups like http://www.desmogblog.com/frederick-seitz-dead">the tobacco industry extolling the health benefits of smoking. The paper, released in 1998, stated that increased CO2 would increase plant growth while not actually affecting global climate. That hypothesis has been proven false by numerous peer-reviewed papers.

When Scientific American tried to verify 30 random signatures on the petition of the less than 1400 supposed signatures by scientists who could have remotely studied climate change, it found only 1 in 7 to actually back it. In other words, about 200 out of that supposed 22,000 were actually qualified scientists who agreed with the paper and/or Seitz's letter at that time. They sent this petition out to any one with any possible sort of science background and didn't verify the responses. Many of the signatures were found to be completely false like Perry Mason, Micheal J Fox, and John Grisham. In other words, it's an old debunked scam.

Here's the real consensus. No major scientific organization denounces the anthropogenic greenhouse gas theory. All support it except for two that are noncommittal. The two noncommittal statements are from the American Association of Petroleum Geologists and the American Association of State Climatologists (2001, no recent statement). The AAPG is significant because they initially denounced the theory but their membership complained so much that they had to recently revise their statement. The ones that support the greenhouse gas theory are the American Geophysical Union, The American Meteorological Society, The National Research Council, and 28 other national or international scientific organizations. The consensus is overwhelming and the old Seitz scam is all the fossil fuel industry has left.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. First clue: "Debating a wingnut"
uhhh..that's not a debate.


However, when and if I am in a patient, bored, or evil mood,
I usually put on a very very very earnest face and ask them for more and more information, esp. sources.
'Bout the time I have grabbed paper and pen and asked them to repeat any facts as I slowly but earnestly write everything down, they wander off.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
20. From Media Matters:
Tale of two NYT reporters: one cites scientists' praise of Gore film, the other fringe criticism presented as mainstream

In May 2006, at the time of the theatrical release of An Inconvenient Truth, the documentary of former Vice President Al Gore's presentation about global warming, The New York Times published an article by Andrew C. Revkin, in which Revkin reported that mainstream scientists, while taking issue with details in the film, embraced its premise, subscribing to Gore's "main point." But 10 months later, shortly after An Inconvenient Truth won the Academy Award for best documentary, the Times ran an article by William J. Broad that again purported to represent the views of mainstream scientists on the accuracy of the film, while citing numerous scientists who are overt global warming skeptics or who have challenged fundamental facts leading to the conclusion that global warming is real and largely caused by humankind.

On May 22, 2006, Revkin wrote:

In interviews and e-mail exchanges, many climate specialists who have seen the film quibbled about details but tended to agree with Eric Steig, a University of Washington geochemist who posted his reactions at the Web log realclimate.org after a recent Seattle screening: ''The small errors don't detract from Gore's main point, which is that we in the United States have the technological and institutional ability to have a significant impact on the future trajectory of climate change.''

A June 27, 2006, Associated Press article reported a similar consensus among scientists:

The nation's top climate scientists are giving "An Inconvenient Truth," Al Gore's documentary on global warming, five stars for accuracy.

<...>

The AP contacted more than 100 top climate researchers by e-mail and phone for their opinion. Among those contacted were vocal skeptics of climate change theory. Most scientists had not seen the movie, which is in limited release, or read the book.

But those who have seen it had the same general impression: Gore conveyed the science correctly; the world is getting hotter and it is a manmade catastrophe-in-the-making caused by the burning of fossil fuels.

"Excellent," said William Schlesinger, dean of the Nicholas School of Environment and Earth Sciences at Duke University. "He got all the important material and got it right."

Robert Corell, chairman of the worldwide Arctic Climate Impact Assessment group of scientists, read the book and saw Gore give the slideshow presentation that is woven throughout the documentary.

"I sat there and I'm amazed at how thorough and accurate," Corell said. "After the presentation I said, 'Al, I'm absolutely blown away. There's a lot of details you could get wrong.' ... I could find no error."

Gore, in an interview with the AP, said he wasn't surprised "because I took a lot of care to try to make sure the science was right."

The tiny errors scientists found weren't a big deal, "far, far fewer and less significant than the shortcoming in speeches by the typical politician explaining an issue," said Michael MacCracken, who used to be in charge of the nation's global warming effects program and is now chief scientist at the Climate Institute in Washington.

By contrast, in his March 13 Times article, bearing the headline, "From a Rapt Audience, a Call to Cool the Hype," Broad wrote:

But part of his scientific audience is uneasy. In talks, articles and blog entries that have appeared since his film and accompanying book came out last year, these scientists argue that some of Mr. Gore's central points are exaggerated and erroneous. They are alarmed, some say, at what they call his alarmism.

Broad himself purported to accept the consensus view that global warming is at least partly anthropogenic:

Typically, the concern is not over the existence of climate change, or the idea that the human production of heat-trapping gases is partly or largely to blame for the globe's recent warming. The question is whether Mr. Gore has gone beyond the scientific evidence.

But, he then proceeded, as Media Matters noted, to cite a parade of sources who have rejected the scientific consensus to varying degrees or who have questioned, often with discredited evidence of their own, some evidence that most forcefully supports that consensus view. In support of his thesis that "riticisms of Mr. Gore have come not only from conservative groups and prominent skeptics of catastrophic warming, but also from rank-and-file scientists," Broad cited numerous scientists who -- far from being "rank-and-file" scientists with "no political ax to grind" -- are well-known global warming skeptics who have made statements questioning global warming that have either been debunked or discredited by the scientific community. In some cases, Broad identified them as skeptics, but in several, he did not. Though Broad failed to say so in his article, the scientist he named specifically as his example of a "rank-and-file" scientist who has criticized the film -- Don J. Easterbrook -- has taken a position on global warming that puts him outside of the scientific mainstream and is at odds with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). Moreover, Media Matters noted that Broad purported to expose significant flaws in Gore's work by engaging in a false comparison and by falsely suggesting that Gore endorsed the view that global warming spawns more hurricanes, which, Broad wrote, was belied by the lower-than-predicted number of named hurricanes in 2006.

Broad's article also appeared to ignore other past reports by Revkin that call into question the allegations leveled against Gore in Broad's article. As Media Matters noted, Broad used a flawed comparison to suggest that Gore's statements in An Inconvenient Truth about possible rises in sea level were an exaggeration:

Some of Mr. Gore's centrist detractors point to a report last month by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a United Nations body that studies global warming. The panel went further than ever before in saying that humans were the main cause of the globe's warming since 1950, part of Mr. Gore's message that few scientists dispute. But it also portrayed climate change as a slow-motion process.

It estimated that the world's seas in this century would rise a maximum of 23 inches -- down from earlier estimates. Mr. Gore, citing no particular time frame, envisions rises of up to 20 feet and depicts parts of New York, Florida and other heavily populated areas as sinking beneath the waves, implying, at least visually, that inundation is imminent.

But in suggesting that oceans could rise 20 feet at an indefinite point in the future, Gore was specifically addressing what could happen if the West Antarctic Ice Shelf or the Greenland ice dome "broke up and slipped into the sea." The IPCC "maximum" figure of 23 inches, however, referred only to projected sea level increases based on increases in temperature by "the end of the 21st century." The IPCC also stated that "ontraction of the Greenland ice sheet is projected to continue to contribute to sea level rise after 2100" and that "f a negative surface mass balance were sustained for millennia, that would lead to virtually complete elimination of the Greenland ice sheet and a resulting contribution to sea level rise of about 7 m," which is equivalent to approximately 23 feet.

Moreover, as Bob Somerby noted on his Daily Howler weblog, Revkin and Elisabeth Rosenthal authored a February 2 Times article about the recently released IPCC report that Broad suggested conflicted with Gore's statements. But as Somerby noted, Revkin and Rosenthal's article actually appeared to support Gore's contentions about possible sea-level changes:

While the new report projected a modest rise in seas by 2100 -- between 7 and 23 inches -- it also concluded that seas would continue to rise, and crowded coasts retreat, for at least 1,000 years to come. By comparison, seas rose about 6 to 9 inches in the 20th century.

<...>

Should greenhouse gases continue to accumulate in the atmosphere at even a moderate pace, average temperatures by the end of the century could match those last seen 125,000 years ago, in the previous warm spell between ice ages, the report said.

At that time, the panel said, sea levels were 12 to 20 feet higher than they are now. Muych of that extra water is now trapped in the ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica, which are eroding in some places.

The panel said there was no solid scientific understanding of how rapidly the vast stores of ice in polar regions will melt, so their estimates on new sea levels were based mainly on how much the warmed oceans will expand, and not on contributions from the melting of ice now on land.

Other scientists have recently reported evidence that the glaciers and ice sheets in the Arctic and Antarctic could flow seaward far more quickly than estimated in the past, and they have proposed that the risks to coastal areas could be much more imminent. But the I.P.C.C. is proscribed by its charter from entering into speculation, and so could not include such possible instabilities in its assessment.

Media Matters also noted that Broad included criticisms of Gore by global warming skeptics without noting errors and distortions made by those skeptics in the past. For example, while Broad included apparently critical comments by University of Alabama-Huntsville climatologist Roy Spencer, Revkin has previously written about Spencer's own errors. In an August 12, 2005, Times article, Revkin wrote:

Some scientists who question whether human-caused global warming poses a threat have long pointed to records that showed the atmosphere's lowest layer, the troposphere, had not warmed over the last two decades and had cooled in the tropics.

Now two independent studies have found errors in the complicated calculations used to generate the old temperature records, which involved stitching together data from thousands of weather balloons lofted around the world and a series of short-lived weather satellites.

A third study shows that when the errors are taken into account, the troposphere actually got warmer. Moreover, that warming trend largely agrees with the warmer surface temperatures that have been recorded and conforms to predictions in recent computer models.

The three papers were published yesterday in the online edition of the journal Science.

The scientists who developed the original troposphere temperature records from satellite data, John R. Christy and Roy W. Spencer of the University of Alabama in Huntsville, conceded yesterday that they had made a mistake but said that their revised calculations still produced a warming rate too small to be a concern.

''Our view hasn't changed,'' Dr. Christy said. ''We still have this modest warming.''

Other climate experts, however, said that the new studies were very significant, effectively resolving a puzzle that had been used by opponents of curbs on heat-trapping greenhouse gases.

In December 2006, after running a series of articles on "The Energy Challenge," The New York Times set up what it called a Reader Forum on Energy and the Environment, to which it invited readers to "weigh in" on the issue of "how the world is, and is not, moving toward a more secure, and less environmentally damaging, relationship with energy." Revkin is listed as one of four reporters contributing to that discussion. The introduction to the Readers' Forum, which notes that the "soaring" use of coal is "likely to dangerously raise temperatures and sea levels in decades to come," reads as follows:

Finding ways to supply energy for some 9 billion people by mid-century without overheating the planet or triggering oil wars is arguably a defining challenge of the times. In more than 20 articles over the past year, a team of New York Times reporters have described how the world is, and is not, moving toward a more secure, and less environmentally damaging, relationship with energy.

Now it's your turn to weigh in. Several of the project's writers, including David Barboza, Felicity Barringer, Keith Bradsher, and Andrew C. Revkin, will respond to questions and comments posted through Thursday.

The series and related graphics and photos are archived at nytimes.com/energychallenge. The articles have examined how the use of coal, the dirtiest fossil fuel, is soaring, both in the United States and in Asia, in ways that are likely to dangerously raise temperatures and sea levels in decades to come and are already wrecking landscapes and threatening air quality. Others have revealed that in many instances "biofuels," while benefiting agribusiness, may actually generate more heat-trapping greenhouse gases than conventional liquid fuels because so much energy is required to grow their raw materials. One article charted how Detroit auto manufacturers have actually been exceedingly good at squeezing ever more energy out of a tank of gasoline over the last 20 years, but have channeled the gains into more acceleration per gallon instead of miles per gallon. Another piece showed that, while there is near universal agreement on the importance of undertaking a sustained, vigorous energy quest, public and private investment into new energy options has been on a downward trajectory for many years.

Please explore the issues and post your question or comment here. The Times's writers will not be able to respond to every comment.

On October 30, 2006, Revkin wrote an article with the dire headline "Budgets Falling in Race to Fight Global Warming," in which he noted that Gore has received mild criticism for his message in An Inconvenient Truth. But the criticism is in essence not that Gore overstates the catastrophic effects of global warming, but that he is overly optimistic about existing technological capacity for addressing the crisis:

Environmental campaigners, focused on promptly establishing binding limits on emissions of heat-trapping gases, have tended to play down the need for big investments seeking energy breakthroughs. At the end of ''An Inconvenient Truth,'' former Vice President Al Gore's documentary film on climate change, he concluded: ''We already know everything we need to know to effectively address this problem.''

While applauding Mr. Gore's enthusiasm, many energy experts said this stance was counterproductive because there was no way, given global growth in energy demand, that existing technology could avert a doubling or more of atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide in this century.

Mr. Gore has since adjusted his stance, saying existing technology is sufficient to start on the path to a stable climate.

A November 2006 post at realclimate.com, which calls itself "a commentary site on climate science by working climate scientists," argued that Broad has seriously misrepresented the science on global warming in the past. According to the post, authored by University of Chicago Geophysical Sciences professor Raymond T. Pierrehumbert, a November 7, 2006, Broad article with the headline "In Ancient Fossils, Seeds of a New Debate on Warming" "leaves the reader with the impression" that recent research on fossils undermines conclusions about the link between carbon dioxide and global warming. Pierrehumbert wrote:

The worst fault of the article, though, is that it leaves the reader with the impression that there is something in the deep time Phanerozoic climate record that fundamentally challenges the physics linking planetary temperature to CO2. This is utterly false, and deeply misleading. The Phanerozoic does pose puzzles, and there's something going on there we plainly don't understand. However, the shortcomings of understanding are not of a nature as to seriously challenge the CO2-climate connection as it plays out at present and in the next few centuries.

—M.K. & J.S.
Comments (28)
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. From a U.K. Government website:
Lots of climate change myths or confusions still crop up in the media and in conversation. As a result, it is sometimes hard to separate fact from fiction and attitudes can prove difficult to change.

Many popular myths are promoted that have little or no relationship to the truth. Here are some of seven most common misconceptions that arise during climate change discussions.



Myth one: The climate is always changing

Natural changes in the world’s climate have happened in the past and sometimes these have led to mass extinctions. At the end of the Permian geological period 250m years ago 96 per cent of life on Earth became extinct. However, what we are beginning to experience now is potentially a big change in our climate which we have caused.

Concentrations of heat-trapping greenhouse gases in our atmosphere are now higher than they have been at any point in the last 800,000 years. Although this may not be new in relation to the history of the planet, it is entirely new in human history. It doesn't mean the world will end, but it could make the world such a hostile place that it cannot sustain life as we know it.

Myth two: Climate change has no basis in science

Since the early 1800s scientist have been thinking about the relationship between emissions of gases and our climate (opens in a new window) Much of the pressure on national politicians to do something about climate change now actually comes from the scientists who can see serious changes ahead.

In 1988, the World Meteorological Organization and the United Nations Environmental Programme got together to form the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (opens in a new window) Hundreds of scientists from around the world are involved in this organisation, which gathers together and asseses the best available peer-reviewed scientific and technical information on climate change. Their last report warned that average global temperatures could increase by up to 5.8°C by the end of this century.

In addition, in 2005, 11 national science academies of the G8 nations and Brazil, China and India sent an unprecedented message to global leaders (opens in a new window) stating their concerns about the need for action on climate change. The statement stressed that the scientific understanding of climate change was now sufficiently clear to justify nations taking prompt action and called on world leaders to act.

Scientists who question whether climate change is happening are now few and far between. Some evidence used to question climate change – for example that changes are not verified by satellite recordings of temperature – have been shown to be wrong. Now these have been corrected, the evidence points in the same direction – that temperatures are increasing.
Myth three: Human activity doesn't cause climate change

The majority of scientists are convinced that we are affecting the climate by the way that we live. The Hadley Centre in the UK is one of the world's foremost modellers of climate change. They recently looked at what the effect of natural changes in temperature would be, compared with actual observed changes over the last 150 years. They found a mismatch. But when they added human effects to the natural effects, the match was very close.

This is not surprising; we know gases keep the earth warm and we know that concentrations of these gases are increasing. We emit greenhouse gases when we use energy from fossil fuels (coal, gas, oil or electricity generated from these fuels). We also change the balance of gases in our atmosphere when we cut down forests and replace them with agricultural land.
Myth four: It's too late to make a difference

There are some changes that have happened already which cannot be reversed. However, by acting now, we can reduce the risk of big changes occurring to our climate and reduce the impacts that we and future generations will experience.

The last report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change indicated that, if we could reduce our greenhouse gas emissions significantly within the next 10 to 20 years, the risk of seeing temperature changes higher than 2°C would be greatly reduced.

This is an enormous challenge – but it can be done. Everyone must play their part – local authorities and other public sector organisations, businesses, governments, community and voluntary groups, schools and other educational establishments and last but not least, individuals. We can all reduce our greenhouse gas emissions, particularly our carbon emissions. Find out how and pledge to do your bit online at www.everybodys-talking.org (opens in a new window)

The UK Government’s goal is that together this generation will tackle climate change. Follow this link to find out what the council is doing to reduce its carbon and other greenhouse gas emissions.



Myth five: There's no point in me taking action

In fact, every reduction in emissions that takes place, no matter where it occurs and how small it is, makes a difference by not adding to the risk. Also, some countries like the UK are in a great position to give a positive example to the rest of the world. We do need other countries to join in, but if we can show that we can rise to the challenge successfully and make a real difference, others will follow.

Myth six: Climate change will make life more comfortable in the UK

True, climate change may lead to a warmer climate overall in the UK. But the climate may also be unpredictable and extreme, which will be unpleasant for many people. We may have warmer winters, but they are also likely to be wetter. And in the summer, excessive heat will cause problems for the elderly, the very young and those with health problems.

There's also the risk of rising sea levels and extreme weather events like storms and floods, which cause havoc to vulnerable areas. So tackling climate change and helping to secure a more stable climate for ourselves will make life a lot more comfortable for us all in the end.

Myth seven: Tackling climate change means making big sacrifices

Tackling climate change is not going to be easy, but it need not damage the economy as a whole if we take action soon. As we shift to new ways of using and creating energy, industry will have to adapt and jobs may change – but more may be created overall. Using less energy can also save companies and households money. Read Sir Nicholas Stern's recent report on economic activity and climate change (opens in a new window)

By investing in new energy technologies at home, we also help to reduce our reliance on imported sources of energy and can help prepare for when fossil fuels such as oil and gas start to run out.

Not tackling climate change has a price too. Since 1998, the cost of repairing the damage from extreme weather events and floods in the UK has increased by 60 per cent. The insurance industry is one of the first sectors of the economy to be feeling the economic effects of climate change.


http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/environment/sustainable_development/climatechange/climatechangemyths/default.asp
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Viking12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. He's likely referring the bogus OISM Petition
It was compiled by a butter group that runs out of a barn in Oregon. Among the notable signers were Ginger Spice and Micahel J. Fox.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine

A few good sites with information to debunk the standard RW denial:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/

http://gristmill.grist.org/skeptics

http://www.realclimate.org/
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:32 PM
Response to Original message
23. wow this is too easy
ask him to name the 22,000 with contact information

he won't even be able to name 22 with contact information

sit back and smile

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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. How, exactly, does the UN "grab more power" because of Global Warming?
Get him to explain THAT one. I'm dying to know the answer myself.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Make him back up his claim...
No damn reason that we should do his work for him. I'm sick and damn tired of doing all the work in order to shove this crap back into a nutjob's face. He's probably the one that's too damn lazy to look it up himself and relies on some other damn jackass to lie to to him.
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