Um, I'd like to be concerned about Tibet - but I have this little problem.

[struggle4progress]

There's a technical word for my problem: Iraq

Since some people find credibility problem to be a very difficult concept, let's start with a few simple examples:

If I were on trial for keeping kidnapped teenage runaways as sex slaves in my basement, and reminded the court of my inspiring lifelong dream to start a nonprofit organization to dissuade young people from a life of disease-spreading fornication, I would have a credibility problem. If my pyromania landed me in a locked psych ward, and I explained to the doctors my deepening concern about the health and safety issues associated with inflammable pajamas, I would have a credibility problem. When I were behind bars because my murder-for-hire company turned out to be illegal (well, who knew?), and lamented to my cellbuddies about how TV violence is undermining the fabric of American society, I would have a credibility problem.

See? It's not rocket science

[truedelphi]

1. Iraq certainly is a nasty ol' problem

That undermines many situations.

We need to march the troops out the same way that they marched in. Period.

And then maybe we can help solve the other problems facing the world.

[Juche]

2. Totally unrelated

China invaded Tibet to conquer its natural resources. We invaded Iraq to liberate the people.

Its like apples and oranges.

Here is another fun comparison between what our country has become and international disasters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYQ68eTTMJM

I also loved when Pakistan was having troubles and the Bush admin said 'there is no excuse for undermining the constitution to fight terrorism. And it is wrong for the head of state to also be the head of the military'.

[man4allcats]

5. Re: "We invaded Iraq to liberate the people. "

We invaded Iraq to get Middle East oil. There was no nobility involved in any of it. We were and are just assholes, pure and simple.

[Juche]

6. Not true

We invaded because of WMD and to liberate the people. And the terrorists attack us because they hate freedom. And disagreeing with Bush is failing to support our troops, but cutting their health and education benefits is ok. And we don't torture. And the republicans want to protect freedom. And people who don't have a good job and decent healthcare are just lazy and underqualified.

[man4allcats]

7. Are you kidding?!

This bullshit has been debunked so many times it's not even funny! Your post makes me feel like I'm being baited.

[Juche]

8. that is satire

I wouldn't be posting on DU if I believed any of that. I'd probably have a life sized cutout of Limbaugh that I was sacrificing a goat to right now if any of that was real.

[man4allcats]

9. Oops! You got me there!

Guess I should have known. Sorry for the error. I should have snapped but didn't. Take care! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[pretzel4gore]

25. don't fogwet 911!

Saddam the devil Hussein secretly plotted to blow up the USA, as foxnews so clearly proves: even if he wasn't DIRECTLY linked to the 19 suspected hijackers, he DAYDREAMED about such things, and that justifies our stealing their oil and poisoning the land etc.....
please support the WAR ON TOTS!! (nits make lice)

[Juche]

34. hell yeah

Now we need to go to war with Iran.

Nevermind that the sunnis are the ones in league with Al Qaeda
Nevermind that about half of the foreign fighters in Iraq are from Saudi Arabia
Nevermind that the US & Saudi Arabia are covertly funding sunni extremists to push back against the shi'ite rise to power
Nevermind the fact that the Sibel Edmonds case & the Valerie Plame case prove that WMD have nothing to do with our foreign policy in the mideast.


It is so damn sad how easy it is to dupe us that we need to attack another oil rich nation.

[spanone]

32. we invaded iraq to conquer it's natural resouces...don't be fooled

[gateley]

3. I have a problem with Iraq, too --

but I'm still concerned about tibet.

It's not either/or.

[struggle4progress]

4. Here's the scoop, g: as an American, you have precisely zip credibility on this issue

It doesn't matter what you think about what's happening in Tibet -- because the power structure that you would normally want to use to exert pressure on China has wed itself to the horrors of Iraq, including: the tortures, the imprisonments beyond reach of law, the random killings by contractors who are officially exempt from any penalty, the massive dislocations and impoverishments of the civilian occupation

Can your President speak with any authority on this subject? Nope. What about your Congress? Nope: it's the same problem

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you really intend to be effective on such issues, then eventually you will choose to be a realist, and being a realist means facing the facts, no matter how much they might conflict with our inclinations. And, I am sorry, but these are the facts: internationally, your concern is at best a joke -- mere evidence of the crazy hypocritical blindness of Americans. If it is noticed at all, it is immediately dismissed by almost everyone around the world

[DCKit]

11. Um, I think that was the point of the OP.

Forgive me please if I'm reading into their intent more than was meant, but I liked the non-angry version better. Hey, we're all pissed, but don't frag your comrades - that's why there's a "bad" room.

"Friendly" fire isn't allowed in gen-pop.

[bluerum]

31. You keep forgetting the sarcasm smiley,,,,,

[JI7]

10. most of us protest and object to both, why does it have to be one or the other ?

people around the world protest Bush when he comes around and they should.

[struggle4progress]

12. Any effective protest is intended to pressure somebody to take some concrete action

And being a local phenomenon, an effective protest always involves pressuring somebody local -- even if there is a nonlocal issue involved, the protest must be intend some local result; otherwise, it is pointless

Thus, for example, one might pressure local institutions or officials to take some action, intended to project a certain stance internationally. But the shadow of Iraq lies over everything: Americans have essentially lost all standing in the world to project any stance on democracy or human rights

You can of course go to your Tibets protests, but they will not have any effect you might hope for, as long as the international community can credibly point fingers and retort, Well, you say you believe that, but then what are you doing in Iraq?

[JI7]

13. and idiots can bring up Hitler when Germany objects to Iraq

you act as if people aren't doing anything about Iraq. in fact the protests against China on Tibet has been very small and limited. it's mostly because of the olympics

but the protests against Iraq have been larger. but the fact is we still need a change in leadership. and there is going ot be an election this year. and a lot of people have come out to support the Democrats who will do something.

[struggle4progress]

14. Nazi Germany fell sixty years ago. Iraqis are dying today, killed by Americans

who gave themselves complete immunity from prosecution and defiantly announced that they would not track civilian casualties, and killed also by the catastrophic breakdown in infrastructure and civil society that followed the invasion

My post concerns Tibet, and the bitter irony that people will complain of a handful of deaths in Tibet while ignoring the countrywide funeral that Iraq has become -- but the point goes rather beyond that: as a result of Iraq, Americans today have absolutely no credibility on human rights issues. Of course, one never wants to say something like, "Well, that was only a handful of deaths, so it is not very important" -- but in fact, from a realistic point of view, nothing we can say on any such subject has even the slightest international credibility: in fact, our credibility may have deteriorated to the the point that it becomes counter-productive for us even to open our mouths

[JI7]

15. you assume they are ignoring it , they aren't

i pointed out they protest Bush anywhere he goes in the world.

[struggle4progress]

16. Mainly, you're convincing me most Americans won't recognize they have a "credibility problem"

[JI7]

17. there isn't because they are protesting Iraq also, the world recognizes that

the world isn't looking at Britain which supported invading Iraq along with Bush as hypocritical for the protests.

it's only the chinese gov and others guilty who bring up the credibility issue.

Bush doesn't speak for all Americans.

[struggle4progress]

22. Concur in part, dissent in part

Any objection to the behavior of another country, will produce a collection of responses: they support our enemies or they are hypocrites or .. or .. That much is certainly predictable

So much for concurrence; I now dissent

If one hopes the objection will produce change, then some narrative (other than one of the knee-jerk rejections they support our enemies &c&c) must prevail. Diplomatic skill involves offering other interpretations that are politically palatable. A vacuous slogan, such as your It's only the Chinese government and others guilty who bring up the credibility issue, completely ignores the fact that one must have some credibility with "the guilty" to induce them to change their behavior: if one has no credibility with them, one has no chance of success

[girl gone mad]

19. And the administration responsible for the invasion of Iraq..

will be gone in 9 months.

Will it be alright with you if we protest China's occupation of Tibet then?

Let me take a wild guess...

[struggle4progress]

24. I do not argue that it is "not alright" to protest China's occupation of Tibet but rather

that our little continuing adventure in Iraq renders such protest by Americans completely ineffective -- and that in fact the occupation of Iraq renders not only demonstrations concerning Tibet but all such demonstrations by Americans ineffective

What will happen in nine months, I do not know: but since I think there is good evidence the Republicans stole the elections in 2000 and 2004, I am not filled with boundless optimism that attitudes in the executive branch will change much in January 2009. In fact, the situation is rather worse than that: even if my party decisively takes the White House and sweeps Congress, everyone at present seems so terrified about future prospects in Iraq, that there may be no real chance of a quick American withdrawal. Beyond that, there is the problem that reputation once lost is not easily regained. Thus, 2009 may herald another decade or more in Iraq if the other party appears to win the Presidency, or at least another two years in Iraq if my party prevails -- and there will be at least decade following the end of the war during which the idiocy and brutality of the war cast a pall over our foreign relations

That's my wild guess. You are of course free to make your own

[Laughing Mirror]

18. Let he who has not savaged, raped, plundered, slaughtered

Cast the first stone.

To parade against the one atrocity and ignore the other is the height of hypocrisy.

Bad China is hosting. What if it was the US?

[girl gone mad]

20. Well, then...

I guess it's too bad that we liberated France during WWII. After all, we were interring Japanese-Americans at the time and African Americans were second class citizens without equal rights. How dare we judge Hitler? Shame on us! :sarcasm:

[Laughing Mirror]

23. Yes, of course, we are all guilty of the same actions we blame others for

It is as it has always been, the human condition, unless we change it.

[malaise]

21. It's that simple n/t

[Zynx]

26. We are not collectively responsible for the actions of our government if we

have opposed the policy all along.

[struggle4progress]

27. It doesn't matter: international pressure is as much a political game as

a domestic presidential election

The interest groups are different; the histories are different; the cultural expectations are different; but the gambits will all seem familiar. If you see broad-brush stereotyping in politics at home, you know you can expect it in international matters. If you see swiftboating in politics at home, you know you can expect it in international matters. If you see people accused of being hypocritical liars in politics at home, you know you can expect it in international matters

You, Zynx, may well have opposed the Vietnam war from the beginning. But the international political game doesn't revolve around your personal innocence in the matter of the ongoing slaughter in Iraq

[1monster]

28. Any reason you can't be concerned about both?

[supernova]

29. I'd agree with you IF

the bush admin were making freeing Tibet a big deal.

WE are.

The "Free Tibet" movement, if you want to call it that, is largely a public one. Not a movement of officialy gov't positions.

And as people, as others have pointed out, you can be concerned about both Iraq AND Tibet.

The Bush admin isn't making Tibet a bit deal. I think the bush admin is play both sides on this one. He says nice things to the Dalai Lama when he comes to visit and also makes soothing noises to Bejing. So, who's he kidding here?

Nobody.

[struggle4progress]

35. Well, it's rather like an opponent of the South African government during the apartheid era

protesting the existence of Amerindian reservations, isn't it? Or a Soviet dissident during the Afghan war protesting the Falklands/Malvinas conflict? Or a Belgian opponent of King Leopold's plunder of the Congo protesting the American imperialism in the Philippines?

My remark isn't that such activity would have been wrong but rather that more-or-less predictably it would have had no effect whatsoever: it may be my lack of imagination, but I'm having trouble identifying any mechanism by which such action actually generates meaningful pressure

[lonestarnot]

30. I hate the fact that we annihilated native american people and put them on reservations, dragged

african american people and enslaved them here and still give them no credit for their contribution to the economy and we now imprison 1 in 100 and give those people no credit for their contribution to our economy and have believed MIHOP from the moment I watched the second plane fly into the second tower and all the lies that followed into allowing a war of lies for oil and the torturing of humans accompanying that, so where's the lack of credibility? :shrug:

[mdmc]

33. slavery, killing native americans

we got issues here.