Some questions for vegans and/or non meat eaters (edited)

[Ghost in the Machine]

1.) What would happen if some of you got your wish, and all of a sudden eating meat was against the law?

2.) Do you already have a backup supply of fruits, grains & vegetables to sustain the increase it will cause to their consumption?

3.) What would happen to all of the livestock all over the country? Do you think people will continue to feed them, since feed costs a lot of money, but now they won't be getting a return on their investment. Will they just be turned loose to fend for themselves? I mean, they can't stay in those pastures and on those ranges because we'll need that land for planting.

4.) Speaking of planting... how long is it going to take to get all this extra farmland ready to plant? Depending on what you're planting, how sustainable will the soil be? Will you be rotating crops frequently to lessen soil damage? What about all of the extra water usage for irrigation? Chemicals in the air & water from pesticides and fertilizers? Oh yeah.. and who is going to pay for all those tractors and equipment that'll be needed? Is the government going to guarantee loans, or equipment, to people with farmable land?

5.) Hunting will be gone too, since no one can claim they're hunting for meat. How will you deal with the exploding populations of deer, wild hogs, turkey, etc., etc? They'll be well fed from all of the extra crops being planted. What happens when overpopulation causes more and more vehicle vs. animal wrecks, not to mention when they start suffering and starving to death? At what point does nature become a nusiance?

6.) What effect is this going to have the economy overall? Don't forget, you'll be wiping out the meat-cutters trade, the leather industry, the fur industry, most of the gun industry, the fishing industry and a host of other intertwined businesses that cater in some fashion to any of these industries. How many millions of American workers are you willing to displace?

Ok... I'll stop with the questions for now. This is something you really have to stop and think about though, if you want everyone to stop eating meat, stop using leather, stop using fur and so on....


Edited: to add "some of" to the beginning..

[varelse]

1. Let's start with this one...

"1.) What would happen if you got your wish, and all of a sudden eating meat was against the law?"

Vegans and vegetarians do not, in fact, share a universal 'wish' that eating meat were against the law. Where did you get this impression of us?

[I Have A Dream]

2. That was my first thought also. nt

[Ghost in the Machine]

3. You're right... I should have said "some of you"... there is a faction

that *would* outlaw meat eating & killing animals for food, clothing or any other reason. I actually heard someone say this today...

[silverojo]

11. From nearly every vegetarian who's ever posted on a forum

Maybe it's just the most rabid ones on the internet, but you can't deny the fact that many, many vegans/vegetarians say that we shouldn't be allowed to eat meat.

[LeftyMom]

17. Link?

I've never seen anybody say that, and I moderate one of the more popular vegan messageboards on the intertubes.

[yewberry]

25. Oh, stop it, you.

Actual experience with and knowledge of the veg*n community is clearly out of line here.

Shame! Shame!

[varelse]

37. Maybe it's just the most rabid ones on the internet

Rabid vegetarians who think meat eating should be outlawed?

Introduce me, please... I've never met one, and I live in "veggie central" here - latte-liberal Santa Cruz.

:rofl:

Oh, no, wait... you said "on the internet" - does that mean they lack physical presence in the world - or just that this is the only place you've seen them?

[defendandprotect]

53. Yeah . . . because it's Vegans who are aggressive and authoritarian, even violent -- !!!

[sentelle]

136. well if they are rabid...

That would explain much.
Why they want to avoid animals and the frothing at the mouth too.
Is it true they need 28 injections to cure someone of being rabid?

I would avoid animals if they made me rabid.

[blondie58]

4. yeah, I sure don't know where you got that idea

it really is a personal choice, although it has been proven to be better for the planet. Please take a look at this article and the affects of the beef industry. For me, I just don't want to eat anything that looks back at me. Cow, pigs and chickens are not treated very humanely in the packing industy. As for your hunting argument, that may be partially true, but if we let nature just take its course and let the natural predators such as the wolves keep the elk and deer populations in line, it would be okay.



Published on Saturday, January 20, 2007 by the Huffington Post
Vegetarian is the New Prius
by Kathy Freston

President Herbert Hoover promised "a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage." With warnings about global warming reaching feverish levels, many are having second thoughts about all those cars. It seems they should instead be worrying about the chickens.

Last month, the United Nations published a report on livestock and the environment with a stunning conclusion: "The livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global." It turns out that raising animals for food is a primary cause of land degradation, air pollution, water shortage, water pollution, loss of biodiversity, and not least of all, global warming.

That's right, global warming. You've probably heard the story: emissions of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide are changing our climate, and scientists warn of more extreme weather, coastal flooding, spreading disease, and mass extinctions. It seems that when you step outside and wonder what happened to winter, you might want to think about what you had for dinner last night. The U.N. report says almost a fifth of global warming emissions come from livestock (i.e., those chickens Hoover was talking about, plus pigs, cattle, and others)--that's more emissions than from all of the world's transportation combined.

For a decade now, the image of Leonardo DiCaprio cruising in his hybrid Toyota Prius has defined the gold standard for environmentalism. These gas-sipping vehicles became a veritable symbol of the consumers' power to strike a blow against global warming. Just think: a car that could cut your vehicle emissions in half - in a country responsible for 25% of the world's total greenhouse gas emissions. Federal fuel economy standards languished in Congress, and average vehicle mileage dropped to its lowest level in decades, but the Prius showed people that another way is possible. Toyota could not import the cars fast enough to meet demand.

Last year researchers at the University of Chicago took the Prius down a peg when they turned their attention to another gas guzzling consumer purchase. They noted that feeding animals for meat, dairy, and egg production requires growing some ten times as much crops as we'd need if we just ate pasta primavera, faux chicken nuggets, and other plant foods. On top of that, we have to transport the animals to slaughterhouses, slaughter them, refrigerate their carcasses, and distribute their flesh all across the country. Producing a calorie of meat protein means burning more than ten times as much fossil fuels--and spewing more than ten times as much heat-trapping carbon dioxide--as does a calorie of plant protein. The researchers found that, when it's all added up, the average American does more to reduce global warming emissions by going vegetarian than by switching to a Prius.

According to the UN report, it gets even worse when we include the vast quantities of land needed to give us our steak and pork chops. Animal agriculture takes up an incredible 70% of all agricultural land, and 30% of the total land surface of the planet. As a result, farmed animals are probably the biggest cause of slashing and burning the world's forests. Today, 70% of former Amazon rainforest is used for pastureland, and feed crops cover much of the remainder. These forests serve as "sinks," absorbing carbon dioxide from the air, and burning these forests releases all the stored carbon dioxide, quantities that exceed by far the fossil fuel emission of animal agriculture.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the real kicker comes when looking at gases besides carbon dioxide--gases like methane and nitrous oxide, enormously effective greenhouse gases with 23 and 296 times the warming power of carbon dioxide, respectively. If carbon dioxide is responsible for about one-half of human-related greenhouse gas warming since the industrial revolution, methane and nitrous oxide are responsible for another one-third. These super-strong gases come primarily from farmed animals' digestive processes, and from their manure. In fact, while animal agriculture accounts for 9% of our carbon dioxide emissions, it emits 37% of our methane, and a whopping 65% of our nitrous oxide.

It's a little hard to take in when thinking of a small chick hatching from her fragile egg. How can an animal, so seemingly insignificant against the vastness of the earth, give off so much greenhouse gas as to change the global climate? The answer is in their sheer numbers. The United States alone slaughters more than 10 billion land animals every year, all to sustain a meat-ravenous culture that can barely conceive of a time not long ago when "a chicken in every pot" was considered a luxury. Land animals raised for food make up a staggering 20% of the entire land animal biomass of the earth. We are eating our planet to death.

What we're seeing is just the beginning, too. Meat consumption has increased five-fold in the past fifty years, and is expected to double again in the next fifty.

It sounds like a lot of bad news, but in fact it's quite the opposite. It means we have a powerful new weapon to use in addressing the most serious environmental crisis ever to face humanity. The Prius was an important step forward, but how often are people in the market for a new car? Now that we know a greener diet is even more effective than a greener car, we can make a difference at every single meal, simply by leaving the animals off of our plates. Who would have thought: what's good for our health is also good for the health of the planet!

Going veg provides more bang for your buck than driving a Prius. Plus, that bang comes a lot faster. The Prius cuts emissions of carbon dioxide, which spreads its warming effect slowly over a century. A big chunk of the problem with farmed animals, on the other hand, is methane, a gas which cycles out of the atmosphere in just a decade. That means less meat consumption quickly translates into a cooler planet.

Not just a cooler planet, also a cleaner one. Animal agriculture accounts for most of the water consumed in this country, emits two-thirds of the world's acid-rain-causing ammonia, and it the world's largest source of water pollution--killing entire river and marine ecosystems, destroying coral reefs, and of course, making people sick. Try to imagine the prodigious volumes of manure churned out by modern American farms: 5 million tons a day, more than a hundred times that of the human population, and far more than our land can possibly absorb. The acres and acres of cesspools stretching over much of our countryside, polluting the air and contaminating our water, make the Exxon Valdez oil spill look minor in comparison. All of which we can fix surprisingly easily, just by putting down our chicken wings and reaching for a veggie burger.

Doing so has never been easier. Recent years have seen an explosion of environmentally-friendly vegetarian foods. Even chains like Ruby Tuesday, Johnny Rockets, and Burger King offer delicious veggie burgers and supermarket refrigerators are lined with heart-healthy creamy soymilk and tasty veggie deli slices. Vegetarian foods have become staples at environmental gatherings, and garnered celebrity advocates like Bill Maher, Alec Baldwin, Paul McCartney, and of course Leonardo DiCaprio. Just as the Prius showed us that we each have in our hands the power to make a difference against a problem that endangers the future of humanity, going vegetarian gives us a new way to dramatically reduce our dangerous emissions that is even more effective, easier to do, more accessible to everyone and certainly goes better with french fries.

Ever-rising temperatures, melting ice caps, spreading tropical diseases, stronger hurricanes... So, what are you do doing for dinner tonight? Check out www.VegCooking.com for great ideas, free recipes, meal plans, and more! Check out the environmental section of www.GoVeg.com for a lot more information about the harmful effect of meat-eating on the environment.

Kathy Freston is a self-help author and personal growth and spirituality counselor. She is the author of Expect a Miracle: Seven Spiritual Steps to Finding the Right Relationship. Her CDs offering guided meditation have been featured in W, Self, and Mode. Kathy and her husband, Tom Freston, divide their time between New York and Los Angeles.

© 2007 The Huffington Post

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No one is trying to take away your guns!


:-)

[Ghost in the Machine]

9. I realize the ecological impact that there is right now...

but the question remains: What happens to all of the animals that are here now? Do we let them just run wild? Who is going to keep paying to feed animals that have no return value on their investment? Do you sterlize herds so they can't reproduce, then let them die out? We won't need them anymore, right? You can't kill them and eat them or make clothes with them, so what good are they? If not, you're not reducing their presence or the amount of harm that they cause. In fact, you'll be adding to the problem as the populations grow. More methane emissions, more water and land consumption, more land being used for feed crops to feed the booming herds.

What natural predators are going to keep the cows & hogs in check? What happens when natural predators get overpopulated? How many attacks on humans would it take before we needed "predator eradication" hunts?

[LeftyMom]

19. Where are these wild breeding cattle and hogs going to come from?

Farmed animals are so distorted by years of breeding them to grow bigger, faster, on the cheapest possible feed, that many of them simply can't breed naturally. Often no males are on site, and semen is shipped in- it's generally considered too dangerous to do live cover with today's huge cattle and hogs.

And your concern is based on the silly notion that meat consumption would end suddenly. I don't think anybody, veg or not, thinks that's in any way realistic.

[defendandprotect]

54. Great comments . . . and begins to expose what is not only a feminist issue . . .

but what should be an issue for males to be looking at ---
in these systems, males become totally dispensible.
Male baby chicks are often just discarded.
And, same with other animals.

Granted, it is the female which is held in virtual slavery of producing new offspring and milk/eggs -- but it is also a system cruel to males.

[stevedeshazer]

20. Oh, for cryin' out loud. That's just plain dumb.

Turn 'em loose, like it's gonna happen tomorrow?

Riiiight.

Cows and Chickens and Hogs. Oh My!

Cattle are butchered at less than three years, hogs at ten months, chickens at less than that.

I'm a lacto-ovo vegetarian who used to raise cattle. I don't care if you eat meat.

But that's a mighty broad brush you're using there, my friend.

[silverojo]

13. Oh, for Christ's sake!

Now it's cow farts causing global warming? Faster than automobile emissions, no less?

Consider this, then...if all those cattle and similar animals are allowed to live and breed without being killed for meat, the ozone layer will disappear faster than if we all drove Hummers!

Finally, these fad diets are NOT good for your health. Doctors' offices are filled with vegetarians with vitamin deficiencies. Human beings are omnivores, NOT herbivores!

[blondie58]

34. I don't think that vegetarians suffer too frequently from vitamin deficiencies

do you have any proof of that claim? Sure, you have to plan your meals carefully and perhaps pay a little more attention to what you eat, but it can be done.

1. Do Vegans Get Deficiency Diseases?
A varied, vegan wholefood diet is able to provide all essential dietary nutrients, as well as sufficient protein and energy and deficiency diseases are, in fact, rare in vegans. However, meals do need to be planned carefully and you will find meal planning easier if you understand the principles of vegan nutrition. I would, therefore, recommend that you read 'Vegan Nutrition Pure and Simple', by Dr Michael Klaper, which contains a lot of useful information as well as many recipes and some sample meal plans. The book 'Vegan Nutrition' by Dr Gill Langley, is also well worth looking at, as it reviews many of the scientific health studies which have been carried out on vegans and is very reassuring reading. You may also like to check out the article 'Veg Out Time?' which was published in the Guardian recently (February 3 1998). This article, which is not so reassuring, covers both vegans and vegetarians and takes the view that the vegetarian diet can be harmful. It highlights some of the areas which can cause problems, but unfortunately it tends to present vegetarians in a rather negative way - as a rather malnourished and anaemic lot - who are sometimes too worn out to cook properly! Illustrated with a photograph of several exceptionally glum-looking vegetarians, it nevertheless provides an interesting contrast to the vital, healthy-looking vegan specimens who are following a vegan, wholefood diet in Dr Michael Klaper's books. A reminder, perhaps, that we all need to pay attention to our diet and make sure that it is well-balanced with plenty of wholegrains, legumes and fresh fruit and vegetables. The article also questions (quite rightly) whether vegetarian convenience foods are healthy. In fact many ready-prepared, convenience foods - whether they are vegetarian or not - contain too much fat, salt, sugar and additives and in my opinion these often expensive and overpackaged products, should be avoided whenever possible. As there are now so many quick and easily-prepared, vegan recipes available it should not be necessary to purchase these products very often, anyway.

Vegetarianism is not a fad diet. It is a different choice in eating. You might be surprised to know that some of the following people have been vegetarians- Carl Lewis (yes, the athlete!), Mahatma Gandi, Albert Einstein, Leonardo da VInci, Leo Tolstoy, Henry David Thoreau and of course, Dennis Kucinich.

[varelse]

38. Nice list - let's not forget Dennis Kucinich, though

;)

[blondie58]

39. He was the very last name!

[varelse]

44. Man, I'm such a dork

sorry about that :P

[blondie58]

45. hey, it;s Sunday morn and if you're like me you need at least

two cups of coffee to wake up properly!:-)
I often joke that if I could receive my coffee intravenously, I would be okay.

This is the craziest post that I have seen in a while. I am relatively new to delving into vegetarian/vegan eating, although I have always leaned that way. It is hard to believe that some find it a threat or not proper nutrition.

[quakerboy]

116. There are the real vegetarians

and there are fad vegetarians. And, at least by my experience, the later outnumber the former.

It is sad. I support those who are vegetarian, but I despise the fad vegetarianism that I see in so many of my general age group. College was an especially rich area for it, I knew one gall who was "vegetarian" and iron deficient as all hell. We would regularly hear her pass out and fall down in her shower, through the wall to the bedroom of our place next door. I don't see a huge difference between fad vegetarianism and any other eating disorder.

[Kitty Herder]

131. Sounds like she may have had some underlying health problems. Or anorexia or bulemia. nt

[Codeine]

89. That is total bulshit.

A healthy vegetarian diet will not result in a vitamin deficiency, and many omnivores have vitamin problems because they fail to eat enough green vegetables. Vitamin K deficiency is very common, for example.

[nankerphelge]

90. Yawn...

Been vegan for 13 years and I'm not dead yet. Most of the meat-eaters I know are malnourished/vitamin deficient though.

[unpossibles]

105. :sigh: 20 years is a fad?

people winning iron man triathlons are unhealthy?

Try doing some research please.

[flvegan]

106. Spoken like someone with zero nutritional knowledge whatsoever.

Got a link to that "doctors' offices are filled with vegetarians with vitamin deficiencies" statement?

Vegan for going on a decade. Doing pretty well.

"Fad diet"...such a hater.

[Mendocino]

111. "Doctors offices..

.. are filled with with vegetarians with vitamin deficiences"

Can you provide links or any evidence to this claim?

[unpossibles]

118. of course not

you can't argue with good, fake statistics.

[frogcycle]

123. idiot post of the day

[Kitty Herder]

130. Oh fer Chrissake!

You consume far more grain and therefore more fossil fuels in a pound of meat than you would in consuming a pound of that grain yourself. That's how eating meat leads to global warming. I thought that was self-evident to anyone with a basic understanding of the food chain and modern agriculture.

Second, vegetarians don't suffer from any more vitamin deficiencies than the population as a whole. Those who say otherwise are usually in the employ of the cattlemen's association or the dairy association.

[Mendocino]

137. I'm still waiting for those links.

I'm not a vegetarian but vegetarian based. I eat fish occasionally (15 or so times a year) and I also eat about an egg a week. My BP is about 115/70. Cholesterol: high on HDL (the good kind), low on LDL (the bad kind). I'm 5'11" 172. I walk daily, bicycle in good weather, canoe and have recently started to rock climb. A recent blood screening showed absolutely no problems and my MD has described me as being in excellent health. I am 50.

My doctor has never told me I have a vitamin deficiency.

[Warpy]

5. 2 and 5 are just plain silly

since so much of the foodstuffs grown in this country are fed to meat animals.

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. How so?

2.) Do you already have a backup supply of fruits, grains & vegetables to sustain the increase it will cause to their consumption?

You can no longer eat the animals... but they're *still there*.. what do you do with them? They're still taking up the same space as before.. actually even more as more continue to be born. This also makes a need for MORE food to feed them.... so... do you have the extra fruits, vegetable and grains that will be added to our diets? If I can't have meatloaf, mashed potatoes & peas, I'm not just gonna have the potatoes and peas, so what else will I substitute for the meatloaf? Maybe some fried eggplant? Squash? Hey, I need something to substitute for the bacon, sausage or ham for breakfast too! Oatmeal? Cereal? Cream of Wheat? More toast? Fried bananas?

5.) Hunting will be gone too, since no one can claim they're hunting for meat. How will you deal with the exploding populations of deer, wild hogs, turkey, etc., etc? They'll be well fed from all of the extra crops being planted. What happens when overpopulation causes more and more vehicle vs. animal wrecks, not to mention when they start suffering and starving to death? At what point does nature become a nusiance?

No killing animals means exactly that. Do you think they'll allow hunting? You don't think thriving and/or overpopulated herds will be looking for food sources as they keep expanding... until they start dying off from starvation or wasting disease...

Yeah, those are "silly" things to think about, huh?

[Warpy]

31. I explained how so

which you'd know if you'd bothered to read anything but the subject line.

However, since you're getting paranoid about evil vegetarians rising up and depriving you of your bloody steaks, do continue to run with points that have been demolished.

[petersjo02]

6. Oh gosh.

I'd never thought about all that! I'm going to the store right now and buy a steak and eat it raw. Thanks for the knock upside the head. :sarcasm:

[Ghost in the Machine]

16. You won a prize!!

PSYCHE!!

Please point out exactly *where* I encouraged you or anyone else to eat meat...

Thanks,

[Bjorn Against]

7. One by one...

1. I have known vegetarians my whole life and I don't know of anyone who wants to make meat illegal.

2. You may not realize this, but livestock needs to eat too. We are using huge amounts of land to grow feed for animals which could easily be used to grow food for humans. There would be more vegetables and grains available to humans if less people ate meat not less. There is therefore no need to stockpile vegetables.

3. If there is less demand for meat there won't be nearly as much livestock to raise. Right now they are using artificial insemination to impregnate the cows on the factory farms, it is not a natural phenomenon that so many cows and pigs exist humans largely control their population.

4. Again, there is much more land needed to raise livestock than would be needed to raise food for humans. A vegetarian diet is much better for the environment than a meat based one, that is a fact that has been established over and over again.

5. Again, no one is proposing that meat should be criminalized so you are using a strawman argument. Second, Nature is not a nuisance we just have very poor development practices that create smaller and smaller habitats for animals. This is not about meat consumption.

6. People still need to eat and if people don't eat meat they will eat other foods, and there will be plenty of jobs in agriculture still. Also, with all the freed up farm land we could build wind farms and grow new crops that would help us gain energy security. There would be changes in the economy, but that does not mean there would be less jobs.

[Ghost in the Machine]

21. Points taken... great well reasoned answers...

A couple of points though,...

What's to become of all the animals? What happens to *them* in the long run?

5. Again, no one is proposing that meat should be criminalized so you are using a strawman argument.div]

It's not a strawman when taken in context. If killing animals for food and/or clothing is prohibited, wouldn't that make possession of meat a crime?

Second, Nature is not a nuisance we just have very poor development practices that create smaller and smaller habitats for animals. This is not about meat consumption.

I agree that development has destroyed habitat and in some places it has caused a large concentration (population) of animals to live in a much smaller range (overpopulation) in which food resources run out quicker, so they go into the neighborhoods looking for food. I've seen it first hand. Herds of deer in sub-divisions in NW Georgia (Douglas County, Paulding County, Cobb County, just to name a few).

When the food is gone, the animals go looking for more food where ever it is available. What do you think drives a deer to stand on the side of the interstate eating grass while cars are zooming by at 70 & 80 mph? Starvation does. They've eaten all the forage they can in the woods, so they're venturing out to where more food is...

It's all about meat consumption... no meat = no hunting for food = wild game population explosion...

[Bluenorthwest]

62. Well, on point 1

I know many Vegans who say 'meat is murder' and use such stickers on their cars and such. Murder is and should be illegal. So if they don't mean it, it is the language that is being murdered. Do you think they mean 'meat is murder and murder is ok'?
If such rhetoric is to be used, it needs to be owned. Murder is a crime, in fact it is crime number one. If someone calls me a criminal, it is not a strawman being posed when they are called on that assusation. Sorry. I don't buy it. If they don't want to criminalize dietary choices, they should stop equating them with the highest and most basic of crimes, that is what I think.

[slowry]

8. Careful; you might dislocate something, reaching so far... n/t

[Ghost in the Machine]

22. :-)

:hi:

[silverojo]

10. K&R and bookmarked

Let the vegans put on their blinders and ignore the facts while they tell the rest of the world how we should eat!

[uppityperson]

12. That is rather broadbrushing as not all vegans are of the fundie sort trying to force

others to eat as they do.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. Thanks... but I was shooting for reasoned discussion, not slamming or put downs...

:hi:

[Lorien]

52. Looks like you are the one with the blinders on

Google "meat consumption" + "Climate change" and "meat production" + "world hunger" then get back to us on that.

[unpossibles]

109. wow. Do you really know any vegetarians?

I know a lot, and very few ever even bring it up because of ill-informed, knee jerk reactions like this.

On the other hand, I've had non-vegetarians telling me how I should eat almost every day for 20 years. Let me put it this way; it sucks.

[flvegan]

112. Not likely. Check the ignorance in post #13.

[LeftyMom]

15. Oh joy, I love stupid hypothetical questions.

1. This question is retarded. I don't know of any veg*ns who want a ban on meat consumption, mostly we just want everybody to realize it's horrible for animals, for human health and for the planet, and knock it the fuck off. Maybe that's unlikely, humankind hasn't a very good record of acting in it's own interest, but hey, there's a first time for everything, ya know?

2. Grain supply would increase pretty dramatically, since so much of it (90% of us corn, for example) is used as animal feed. Since so much cropland is used to support animal agriculture (90% of us soybeans are also fed to animals) a lot more cropland could be returned to feeding humans directly. It would also free up an incredible amount of water, and reduce pollution from animal sources (that's a delicate way of saying shit) sufficiently that many watersources would again be safe to drink.

3. This question is based on the idea that animal agriculture would end overnight, which is just a pretty silly proposition. In a more realistic scenario, as demand falls people would breed fewer animals. This seems rather obvious.

4. Extra farmland? See question 2.

5. Places with healthy populations of predators don't have these problems to any great degree. Without hunters and ranchers to pitch a hissyfit at the statehouse (or shoot them, or put out poison,) reintroductions and natural population growth of populations of mountain lions, wolves, etc would resolve any problem that might occur. Though I think the problem is overstated, since hunting quotas are much more geared toward the wishes of hunters than toward population health.

6. And what of the lamplighters union? Things change. But you know who a reduction in meat consumption would really hurt? Cardiologists and oncologists. Oh, and the people who manufacture boner pills.

[Ghost in the Machine]

26. and I adore snarky but well thought out answers...

"3. This question is based on the idea that animal agriculture would end overnight, which is just a pretty silly proposition. In a more realistic scenario, as demand falls people would breed fewer animals. This seems rather obvious."

That sounds like slowly killing off the herds to me. They'll stop breeding them altogether, as they now serve no purpose and have no return on investment (feed cost, vet bils, etc.) In the meantime, the herds are increasing because they are living longer, natural life spans.

You're still going to be feeding as many, and more, until they start dying off naturally and stop reproducing.

[LeftyMom]

28. I still think the problem here is a flawed premise.

You're still looking at a sudden change, and a consequence of suddenness. Much as I'd love for everybody to wake up vegan tomorrow, or for most of our society to be vegan in five years or ten a dramatic change in attitudes almost never occurs in less than one human generation.

Since change is slow, reduced breeding would adjust for reduced demand for animal products. If nobody's buying purple couches anymore, they don't stack up by the sides of the road, because manufacturers stop making purple couches. I hate to reduce an animal to a commodity, but that's the mindset behind animal farming, and that's why there would not be ballooning populations of farmed animals as demand waned.

[unpossibles]

110. as several people have already pointed out

animals in the vast majority of commercial farms do not breed naturally.

Furthermore, meat eating won't stop overnight, any more than smoking is.

[fascisthunter]

18. You Assume Vegans Want It To Be Illegal to Eat Meat?

:rofl:

And no, I am not vegan, but damn....

[Ghost in the Machine]

27. No, I don't assume *ALL* vegans want this, but I have to assume it from the person

I heard the comment from today. I've seen that sentiment typed out a few times, but this was the first time I actually heard someone speak the words in person. It just got me thinking about the subject.. and these are some questions I came up with. I never really thought about the matter before.

Maybe I shouldn't smoke & think? :shrug:

[blondie58]

33. it depends on what you were smoking

:hippie:

[yewberry]

23. Wow, how completely ridiculous. Bad premise.

I have been veg*n for more than 20 years, and I've never actually known anyone who advocated outlawing meat-eating. It's simply not a conversation that comes up. Why? Because it's silly and unrealistic. The people who make this argument are usually either very new evangelistic veg*ns or (far more often) people determined to try to make veg*ns look stupid or short-sighted.

So, okay.

1) That would never happen. Many of us hope that people will choose to give up meat or eat less of it for a variety of reasons. But please, feel free to point out the legislation you've run across that we've put forth to outlaw meat. I mean, there must be actual cases of this being tried, given how often meat-eaters accuse us of it, right? Please post your sources.

2) {Faulty premise} There is a food crisis playing out in the world right now, but it's unrelated to the notion of sudden forced veg*nism. In fact, if more people gave up a meat-based diet, there would be less hunger in the world.

3) {Faulty premise} Are you actually using the idea of a global, instant conversion to veg*nism as a basis for this argument? Uh, yeah. Again, that's silly and unrealistic. If more people gave up meat, there'd be a slow tapering off of feed and land used for livestock. Cows and chickens will never be let loose to fend for themselves.

4) {Faulty analysis} Um, you do know that the vast majority of land currently being used for raising crops is for animal feed, right? And that crops grown as animal feed use far more pesticides than those meant for human consumption? "Extra farmland" indeed.

5) {Faulty premise} What, all the hunters in the world are going to magically stop hunting? Riiight.

6) {Faulty premise} While I'd personally be very, very happy to see the fur industry go the way of the buggy-making industry, again, this is not going to happen. Immediate global veganism isn't going to happen. We know that and you know that.

OK. Given the fact that your premise is completely unrealistic and biased against veg*ns, what are you really trying to say about us?

[fed-up]

29. have you been eating "mad cow" recently??? nt

[Perry Logan]

30. I agree with the dummy: "Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances of survival..."

"...for life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet."
--Albert Einstein

[lonestarnot]

35. Be careful how you use that word around here Einstein.

[ileus]

32. Meat is Murder don't ya know! nt

[flvegan]

36. At least your bait is vegan. Let's see:

1.) What would happen if some of you got your wish, and all of a sudden eating meat was against the law?

I don't know a single veg*an that wants to make eating meat illegal. I, and most like me, would rather folks CHOOSE to not eat meat or to at least limit their consumption.

2.) Do you already have a backup supply of fruits, grains & vegetables to sustain the increase it will cause to their consumption?

I'd think we could use the land being wasted right now to raise livestock. Plus, the amount of vegetable resources that's used to feed animals would more than make up for it.

3.) What would happen to all of the livestock all over the country? Do you think people will continue to feed them, since feed costs a lot of money, but now they won't be getting a return on their investment. Will they just be turned loose to fend for themselves? I mean, they can't stay in those pastures and on those ranges because we'll need that land for planting.

On the dumb premise of "outlawing" eating meat, as most laws take time to come into effect, methinks the average rancher and feedlot operator would figure out how to phase out the animals. Unless your premise includes the idea that they're morons to begin with.

4.) Speaking of planting... how long is it going to take to get all this extra farmland ready to plant? Depending on what you're planting, how sustainable will the soil be? Will you be rotating crops frequently to lessen soil damage? What about all of the extra water usage for irrigation? Chemicals in the air & water from pesticides and fertilizers? Oh yeah.. and who is going to pay for all those tractors and equipment that'll be needed? Is the government going to guarantee loans, or equipment, to people with farmable land?

Extra water? You should research how much water it takes to make a pound of beef. When you have your answer, you may feel a little silly for asking this question. Actually, I'll save you the trouble: 2,500 gallons. That's for 1 (one) pound of beef. And pesticides and fertilizer? Ways around it, and it's better than manure lagoons.

5.) Hunting will be gone too, since no one can claim they're hunting for meat. How will you deal with the exploding populations of deer, wild hogs, turkey, etc., etc? They'll be well fed from all of the extra crops being planted. What happens when overpopulation causes more and more vehicle vs. animal wrecks, not to mention when they start suffering and starving to death? At what point does nature become a nusiance?

Somehow nature managed before hunting permits. Besides, maybe we'd stop wiping out their natural predators.

6.) What effect is this going to have the economy overall? Don't forget, you'll be wiping out the meat-cutters trade, the leather industry, the fur industry, most of the gun industry, the fishing industry and a host of other intertwined businesses that cater in some fashion to any of these industries. How many millions of American workers are you willing to displace?

How many new jobs would it create? The real shame is how it would impact the health care industry. A nation of vegetarians (or God forbid, vegans) would put many cardiologists and oncologists and a good chunk of Big Pharma out of business. Oh, and those poor funeral directors would face dire straits since folks will be living longer.

Ok... I'll stop with the questions for now. This is something you really have to stop and think about though, if you want everyone to stop eating meat, stop using leather, stop using fur and so on....

You're right. Fuck the animals, our health, the environment. It tastes good, and someone has made a half-assed flamebait post on a message board. I'm convinced.

[LeftyMom]

49. Dude, get out of my brain.

:loveya:

[WillParkinson]

40. I want #5!

"5.) Hunting will be gone too, since no one can claim they're hunting for meat. How will you deal with the exploding populations of deer, wild hogs, turkey, etc., etc? They'll be well fed from all of the extra crops being planted. What happens when overpopulation causes more and more vehicle vs. animal wrecks, not to mention when they start suffering and starving to death? At what point does nature become a nusiance?"

Hopefully around the same time that people do. People are a lot bigger nuisance than animals. Animals don't blare music at 3 in the morning. They don't drive huge vehicles which do nothing more than make up for "pinky" size. They don't create mutant bacterium. They don't pour billions of tons of pollutants into the air getting from point A to point B every work day. They don't usually have fits of road rage. They don't lock their children in cages. They don't shake their babies to death because they don't stop crying.

Oh, but I go on. Never mind.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[varelse]

47. forever three years old

Are you describing your view of all vegans and vegetarians, or only the hypothetical "meat-outlawing" ones postulated in the OP?

[flvegan]

50. "asking a vegan to think is a lost cause"

What a moronic thing to say, pitohui.

[Ellen Forradalom]

60. Would your straw man like some reductio ad absurdum on his red herring?

[yewberry]

61. Don't you ever get tired of carrying that burden of hatred you have for us?

In the end, your insults and hostility say more about you than about us.

[HamdenRice]

42. Even to a this meat-eater, there are too many false premises in this

Most have already been dealt with, but I'll add my 2 cents.

1. No one wants to outlaw eating meat. But for the sake of hypothetical reasoning, I'll admit it is possible that some combination of economic crises could cause a drastic decrease in meat consumption (eg Argentina in the 90s, Cuba). Or over the medium term, its possible that for both economic and cultural reasons, people could transition to a mostly vegetarian diet.

2. The back up supply already exists. It's the grain currently being used to feed livestock. Because people need a less monotonous diet than most livestock, many corn, soybean and oat farmers would switch to vegetables and a wider selection of grains.

3. The most likely scenario is a change to a mostly vegetarian diet, not a vegan diet. Therefore, many farm animals would continue to be raised for non-meat products. If you think that's far fetched, just look at the number of cows in India. Meat cattle would be replaced by milk cows, laying hens would replace friers, etc. The only animal that does not generally provide any product except its meat is the pig, which would probably simply cease being bred in large numbers.

4. Overall, the amount of farm land needed would shrink probably by 60%, because there would be less need to grow grain for animals so no new farm land would be needed. Moreover, the kind of farming that would result would be much more environmentally friendly. Currently animals are fed "field crops," ie corn, soybeans and oats, which for economic reasons are grown on a vast scale using highly mechanized, fertilized and pesticide intensive methods. Vegetables are less likely to be grown on such a scale and smaller scale, mixed crop farms likely would result.

[sir pball]

43. What about the bees?

I'm dead serious - almost every vegan I know thinks beekeeping is exploitation and immoral on the same level as meat processing (nevermind that it's more a symbiosis, we give the bees a better hive and more food than they'd find in nature, and leave them plenty of honey to live on, they produce a huge excess of what they need and we insure they never get into a lean-times situation where they'd naturally use the extra oh crap I'm rambling), but growing crops already *needs* the use of commercial bees to pollinate - going 100% veg for 300 million people would absolutely require an exponential increase in the use of bees, and I don't see any way of letting Nature handle that by herself..

[DarkTirade]

58. They can have my honey when they pry it from my... er... can't really hold honey in my hands.

Too messy.

But 'honey jar' doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Hmm. I'll have to think of something else.

[sir pball]

77. Honey bear? nt

[DarkTirade]

88. No, I try to go for honey in glass jars, not plastic.

Don't want to ruin the bouquet.

I brew my own mead, which tastes awful if you use honey that's been stored in plastic. :P

[sir pball]

117. Ahh, I learned something today!

Maybe that's why the honey we used to raise ourselves always tasted so much better, it only ever touched metal and glass. Cheers!

[DarkTirade]

133. And most storebought honey goes through a lot of processing

which, yes, kills any bad stuff that might have gotten in there... but it also takes out a lot of the things that add flavor. :P

When I can, I try to use raw honey because it hasn't been overly processed. Sometimes not even processed at all, so I have to get the bits of wax and whatnot out... but that's still better than using cheap storebought honey to make mead with.

[sir pball]

134. Pantyhose

That was all the processing we ever did with our honey, it worked great to get the legs and wings and antennae and wax and whatnot else out, give it a try if you haven't :D

[DarkTirade]

135. I just heat it up enough that the wax and whatnot floats to the surface

then scoop it out with a slotted spoon. :) The heat helps liquify it enough that it'll mix with the water well.

[mitchum]

46. Watch out for those feral cows!

[Fox Mulder]

48. With these silly questions, you're making me want to become vegan.

I'm serious.

[K8-EEE]

127. Try it, you might like it!

"Eat you meat, drink your milk" is the big propaganda -- just look around at how unhealthy we are, as a country!

[Lorien]

51. If humanity gave up meat it would likely save itself from extinction

1). Because meat production is the second biggest contributor to climate change

2). Because it takes 3X the land mass to raise a cow as it does to feed a human being. Hunger would probably be a thing of the past if we all gave up meat and dairy. There would be no need for the further rapid deforestation of the Amazon because we would have more than enough cropland for everyone on earth.

http://millionsofmouths.com/blog/nfblog/2006/11/17/world-hunger-and-meat-production/

http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/reports/beyond.html

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/3956

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20773080/

http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/mg19526134.500-meat-is-murder-on-the-environment.html

http://www.emagazine.com/view/?142

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iIVBkZpOUA9Hz3Xc2u-61mDlrw0Q

But I've NEVER seen any vegan or vegetarian advocate outlawing meat consumption. Your statements are as extreme as those I've heard from the other side, as in "Liberals want to appease the terrorists and give them a hug".

Hunting: nature always takes care of itself very well when we don't interfere with it AT ALL.

The economy: human beings aren't complete dumbfucks. We innovate, we are capable of being retrained. When the automobile took over those associated with horse husbandry didn't just die off. They evolved with the times.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nam78_two]

64. You cannot actually believe this is a convincing or intelligent argument?

:shrug:
It doesn't even really work very well as a funny or glib reply honestly. Look up any of the news items on the global food crisis for instance-this isn't just vegan propaganda put out by those "silly vegetarians" etc. Indications are that the increase in meat consumption throughout the world is at least one major factor driving the global food crisis. Many of the thinktanks proposing this as a major factor are not vegan propaganda outlets you know. There is a common sense aspect to all of this-meat production (especially of the factory farmed kind) is very resource intensive.

Keep an open mind about this sort of stuff-it doesn't have to be black and white-it doesn't even have to be becoming vegan overnight. A change in one's habits, reduction of consumption, switching from factory farmed meat to free-range etc. etc. all make a difference. It is becoming rather obvious-at least in this silly vegetarian's opinion ;)-that the rate at which meat and dairy are consumed in the west, and the practices involved are simply not sustainable (not to mention inhumane -most factory farming practices are really inhumane-the treatment of downers, the cruelties involved in veal production etc. etc.).

[BlooInBloo]

67. There's no convincing the silly, and I'm ok with that. At least I don't tell others what to eat.

[nam78_two]

68. Some people would consider broad-brushing/dismissing entire groups of people rather silly

;)

[BlooInBloo]

69. There's some people who would consider anything anything.

[varelse]

65. Are you judging me by what I (don't) eat?

Or by what I've posted on DU?

[BlooInBloo]

71. Um, who *are* you?

[yewberry]

73. Someone you don't know but have referred to as 'silly,' apparently. nt

[varelse]

75. I'm a vegetarian...

you seem to think we're all "silly". I'm curious as to why you think this, since the only thing that vegetarians all have in common, is that we have chosen not to eat meat. Is it that choice alone that makes us seem "silly" to you, or is there some other reason? In my case, the only other information you have on me is what I've posted on DU - if you have read any of my posts on other threads. That's why I'm asking you.

Or perhaps you are referring to a particular subgroup of vegetarians you know more intimately, and weren't intending to paint us all with that broad brush?

[BlooInBloo]

76. Nah - it's that you tell *me* what I should eat.

[slowry]

78. Do you ever just laugh, and wonder why the mods let you get away with such blatant trolling?

I do, except it isn't so much laughter as it is frowning. Think I actually pulled a muscle in my face.

"Turn that frown upside down"! OMG that only made it hurt more. Whyyyyyy

[BlooInBloo]

80. Yes - we've already established that the world is very confusing to you.

[slowry]

81. Stop eating meat.

Start eating fire.

[BlooInBloo]

82. Wow - the vehemence with which you wish my death is amazing....

... (munches another piece of yummyyummy bacon)

[slowry]

83. Curious how you reply to me, and not Varelse, who responded to your position intelligently.

Don't feel obligated to make a half-assed attempt to reply to them now, on my account ;).

[BlooInBloo]

84. If intelligence to you = closing your eyes and then saying you don't see anything, then sure...

... There's little to say to such people, for my part.

[slowry]

85. You're like some kind of retarded genius. n/t

[varelse]

79. I don't tell anyone what to eat (or not eat)

nor do any of the vegetarians and vegans I know personally. Even my vegetarian family members didn't try that on me before I made the choice for myself. Although, if I knew that something was poisonous and saw someone about to chow down on it, I'd definitely make an effort to stop them from inflicting serious illness or death on themselves. Fresh meat and uncontaminated dairy products don't fall into the 'instantly fatal' category - unless you have severe allergies to them - so I'd never try to stop someone from eating those things.

[stevedeshazer]

98. Eat whatever you want

In fact, I've got something right here you can eat!

Seriously, not one single poster here is telling you you can't eat meat. Go right ahead!

[unpossibles]

119. exactly

in fact, there are some people whom I encourage to eat more and more meat! Give up veggies all together! Eat bacon with your bacon. Knock yourself out. I honestly don't care that much about someone's diet, and would not suggest otherwise any more than if you said "I do 10 lines of coke a day cause I can." Great. Awesome. Enjoy.

[defendandprotect]

57. Vegetarian/Veganism is a spiritual move . . . not something that can be dictated by laws. . .

it comes from within --- it comes from understanding our connections to animal life on the planet --
it comes from understanding the enslavement of animals -- especially females within the animal-exploitation system --- and, in fact, that the system finds the male animal pretty much disposable.

It comes from a desire to free ourselves from this filthy and violent exploitation of animals.


Interesting that you're worried about animals AFTER they would gain a protected status rather than worrying about what is actually going on now . . .

However, should the public begin to become aware of the great harm animal-exploitation does to us all, I would imagine it would be like cigarette smoking -- change would occur gradually. Less demand would call for less breeding of animals. There are, of course, many owned/domesticated animals already feeding on public lands.

Keep in mind that many animal-exploiters have been feeding animals who are naturally herbivores other animals and even road kill!!

As for farming/plants ... that's an entirely other subject. There are many ways to "plant" without being at ground level. There are many ways to grow plants for food indoors. Also, a return to organic farming would produce more nutritious foods. The idea that farming takes miles long acreage totally plowed up is dated. Every time all of that top soil is turned up it results in huge loss of topsoil.

While your fears seem out of bounds -- in regard to animals you suggest are hunted -- deer/hogs/turkey -- just stopping reproduction would be sufficient.

As for displacement of workers . . . should we still have a tobacco industry?
Concern for workers should be met with a renewal of our commitment to government safety net programs, for one --- but additionally if interest moved slowly towards a vegetarian/Vegan diet,
then also that would obviously require more workers.

But --- I'm sure you note as you think about this --- how much is based on animal-exploitation --!!!

[BlooInBloo]

59. Whoa. That's hardcore.

[Fireweed247]

66. "Vegetarian/Veganism is a spiritual move"

:applause:

and I personally have no interest in laws stopping people from eating meat...

But if you want to be healthier, stop eating Mad Cow, hormones, antibiotics, and lower your medical bills, vegetarianism is also a wise decision.

Being a vegetarian is also cheaper if you learn to cook for yourself, which might be a wise decision for many in these difficult times. A 25lb bag of beans and rice can go a long way, think of all the possibilities of Mexican food and be creative, enchiladas, tostadas, tacos, you can put all sorts of thinks in a tasty burrito. Then there is Indian food, fried bread and hummus, falafels, it opens you up to a new realm of possibility. Funny how so many people in other countries have much healthier and in my opinion more interesting food without meat.

[defendandprotect]

91. It's also a HEALTH issue . . . animal/diary eating is connected to cataracts, heart disease,

obesity, hypertension, diabetes -- etal ---

MAD COW ---

Off to make a beet salad --- !!!

[LeftyMom]

100. And cancer.

Let's not forget that one.

[defendandprotect]

101. Yep . . . CANCERS, including BREAST CANCER . . . .

I'd be a wholly happy go lucky Veggie/Vegan if I could just find some really good way to make cole slaw --- the only good dressings have egg yolk in them which make me gaggy ---

Love coleslaw --

[LeftyMom]

102. Have you tried using vegenaise?

I don't like cole slaw (cabbage=teh eew) but I haven't yet found an application for mayo where the grapeseed oil vegenaise (the one with the purple lid) doesn't work at least as well.

[defendandprotect]

103. Someone told me about it ....and they said . . .

if you use it, eat the stuff right away because it separates . . .

Everytime I try to pick up a jar of it I think of that -- !!!

Annie's goddess dressing is pretty good --

Think I'm just going to shred my cabbage into stir fries and forget cole slaw ---

:)

[RadiationTherapy]

104. Grapeseed vegenaise does not separate.

I have used it for everything; it is a very stable emulsion.

[flvegan]

107. ...and oh, oh so tasty.

[defendandprotect]

113. OK ---

Purple top -- grapeseed --- next time I shop ---
and somewhere along the line I'll try to give you a report ---
Thanx...

[blondie58]

121. wow- great points, defendandprotect

I am relatively new to this way of eating, although I did eat this way twenty some years ago. I just don't want to eat anything that looks back at me. I don't like the approach of factory farming- I feel so sorry for those animals, some of which are really quite intelligent.

[LWolf]

63. A few answers from a non-vegetarian,

but one who recognizes that we need to be eating much less meat than we do currently:

1. Not eating meat is never going to be "suddenly against the law." It's possible that, like smoking, it will become more and more prevalent, and food production will evolve along with the gradual change in people's chosen diets.

2. We aren't going to have "back up supplies" as long as the population keeps increasing. Going vegetarian might make food supplies last longer, but, in the end, we'll end up with food shortages if we don't manage to rein in runaway reproduction.

3. As demand for meat falls, less breeding of livestock will be done. That's really a good thing, for meat-eaters, too. There's nothing healthy about factory-farmed meat. What resources we have for raising livestock can be used to raise grass-fed, clean, hormone/antibiotic free, free-ranging meat. There's not enough land to do so to feed the massive human population currently, especially at the current rate of consumption, but it can be done with fewer people who eat less meat.

4. Obviously, whether we greatly increase the amount of food grown or not, modern factory farming that erodes soil and pollutes the earth with herbicides and pesticides will continue to be a problem. Whether we grow at current levels, increase them, or decrease them, food crops need to be grown ethically and responsibly. I'd suggest taking the farms out of the hands of corporations and putting them back into the hands of families.
Again, if the population continues to increase, eventually it won't matter how many acres are under production. We'll see a whole new era of frankenfoods to keep up with population growth.

5. If we don't rein in population growth, there won't be habitat to support wild game for too many generations in the future. If there is, AND we maintain a healthy environment, wild game is a good, healthy source of meat for those who want to hunt them ethically and responsibly.

6. When a gradual transition occurs, jobs gradually transition as well. Since there will be no sudden banning of meat, this would have a chance to occur.

It really doesn't matter if you are a vegan, a vegetarian, or an omnivore. To pretend that there aren't problems with current meat production is, a the very least, disingenuous.

[VotesForWomen]

70. oh geez, too many strawmen there to shake a stick at. nothing is going to become illegal until ther

there has already been a major shift in behavior and attitudes; that's the way things always work. the meat industry of today is not going to be shut down cold turkey, but of course some people would rather talk about those kind of strawmen, rather than address the truly reprehensible reality of the meat industry.

[depakid]

74. "the truly reprehensible reality"

One of those realities is that from here on out, there are likely to be chronic and recurring food shortages- and in many regions, meat is a much less efficient means of producing and consuming food.

Strawman laws are one thing- ecologic and economic laws are quite another....

[mbee]

72. I don't eat meat, but I do eat fish and I guess I just want to see

humane treatment of all animals whether you use them for food or not. I object to the factory farming in this County. I realize other countries are horrible on this issue too! I think not person or animal should feel pain unnecessarily.

[defendandprotect]

92. I don't eat fish, either --- however, worldwide, fish are depleted ---

and often full of mercury ---

Some of the fish comes from "farms" --- and often they develop worms ---

[Marr]

96. Why don't some people count fish as meat?

I'm honestly curious. I have vegetarian friends who don't put fish in the meat category, and I can't figure out why.

Is it because they aren't mammals? No... it can't be that, since they count poultry as meat. Is it because they haven't got any limbs? No... they won't eat snakes... I really don't know.

[stevedeshazer]

99. Fish is meat

Your vegetarian friends who eat fish meat aren't vegetarians.

I'm not moralizing here, I'm just saying....

[defendandprotect]

114. I don't get it either . . . but that exception seemingly has always been there . . .

Basically, I think it goes back to the Bibical story of the "Fish and the Loaves" --
I have no basis for saying that, but it's my feeling about it ---
You know . . . they can't prove that Jesus would have eaten a Big Mac but they can point
to fish.

HOWEVER, it is also thought that Jesus was a vegetarian -- belonging to the Essenes group.
Hope I have that name right!

Also, the Bibical story is mistranslated --- it was FISHWEED and bread ---

My guide is --- don't eat anything with a face ---

[Sparkly]

86. I don't eat meat.

I just never liked it.

There'd be no problem "sustaining the increase" in fruits, grains, and vegetables if people stopped eating meat, though. It takes a lot of land to raise a cow -- a lot of plant food goes into every pound of meat. So it'd actually be a much more efficient use of the land.

I don't know that deer is always hunted for meat. I think it's more about "sport" (not that I understand that myself) and is allowed in some areas, at some times, to thin the population (I think).

On the economy: I think other industries can always crop up (no pun intended).

[frogmarch]

87. Some vegans and vegetarians

only hope that someday the flesh-eating members of our species will come to realize that eating animals is cruel and barbaric, and that although eating them was probably necessary to our primitive ancestors, it isn't anymore, and is in fact, bad for our health.

As for industries that depend on the killing of animals, fuck 'em. They can find something else to do.

[defendandprotect]

94. Smile . . .

nice response!!!

[Marr]

93. Well, obviously the deer population will be controlled by the new wild cow population.

I mean, duh.

[nankerphelge]

95. Since your thinking about the issue...

here's some links to some starter kits on how to go veg:

www.afa-online.org/starterpack.html

www.mercyforanimals.org/vegan_starter_kit.asp

www.peta.org.uk/feat/ukvegkit

www.vegetarianstarterkit.com

www.vegkids.com/order.asp

www.vegkit.org

[Ilsa]

97. So, what's with this new attack on vegetarians and vegans?

I'm surprised you have the energy for it. My energy level doubled when I gave up meat. Been happily vegetarian for three years. They still take my blood at the blood bank. No vitamin or mineral deficiencies here. My food cost is lower. And it isn't about cow farts.

If you don't want to be a veggie, then don't. But don't deny the reality of what happens to the animals in slaughtering houses, etc. PErsonally, I think the hunting way of doing it is far kinder.

[flvegan]

108. If only it WAS new.

[defendandprotect]

115. "When we abuse animals we debase ourselves ..." ---

In fact, when we abuse childlike qualities in animals – when we take advantage of trust, sweetness, simplicity, or innocence, for example – we are well on our way to the abuse of children. For decades researchers, child and animal protection professionals, and educators have been pointing to the correlation between the treatment of animals and the treatment of children.

The full article is here ---
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0411/p09s01-coop.htm

[Blue_Tires]

120. ttt

[Myoho]

122. The First Precept of Buddhism

One must not deliberately kill any living creatures, either by committing the act oneself, instructing others to kill, or approving of or participating in act of killing. It is a respect to others' lives.

One should not deprive others (animals not excluded) of the right to live. If one is hurt or killed, one's family, relatives, friends will suffer. It is the cause of rebirth in Three Evil Paths. The effect of killing to the performer are brevity of life, ill health, handicapped and fear.

In observing the first precept, one tries to protect life whenever possible. Furthermore, one cultivates the attitude of loving kindness to all beings by wishing that they all may be happy and free from harm.



"There is no salvation without compassion for all living beings" - Buddha

[hellbound-liberal]

138. Thank you, Myoho. You write very well. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Welcome to DU!:hi:

[frogcycle]

124. somebody has far too much time on their hands n/t

[Myoho]

125. Did you find any

fault to what I said?

[frogcycle]

128. response was to OP

[K8-EEE]

126. If 'Murkins stopped eating their filthy, tortured, hormone & antibiotic injected meat

They would be healthier. Absolutely.

If FACTORY FARMING were against the law, meat would be too expensive for most people to eat on a regular basis and they would be all the healthier for it.

[Kitty Herder]

129. Wow. There are some serious misconceptions about veg*nism out there. nt

[Kitty Herder]

132. #2 actually made me laugh. You do realize that if more people became vegetarians, there

would be more grain, soybeans, and other vegetable foodstuffs to go around, don't you? That's pretty basic.

[Kitty Herder]

139. #4 is pretty funny, too. If more people become vegetarians, that will decrease the amount of land

under cultivation.

Think hard.... Basic biology 101 about the food chain.