"Men Explain Things To Me .. . " ----

[defendandprotect]

Men Explain Things to Me
Facts Didn't Get in Their Way
By Rebecca Solnit

I still don't know why Sallie and I bothered to go to that party in the forest slope above Aspen. The people were all older than us and dull in a distinguished way, old enough that we, at forty-ish, passed as the occasion's young ladies. The house was great -- if you like Ralph Lauren-style chalets -- a rugged luxury cabin at 9,000 feet complete with elk antlers, lots of kilims, and a wood-burning stove. We were preparing to leave, when our host said, "No, stay a little longer so I can talk to you." He was an imposing man who'd made a lot of money.

He kept us waiting while the other guests drifted out into the summer night, and then sat us down at his authentically grainy wood table and said to me, "So? I hear you've written a couple of books."

I replied, "Several, actually."

He said, in the way you encourage your friend's seven-year-old to describe flute practice, "And what are they about?"

They were actually about quite a few different things, the six or seven out by then, but I began to speak only of the most recent on that summer day in 2003, River of Shadows: Eadweard Muybridge and the Technological Wild West, my book on the annihilation of time and space and the industrialization of everyday life.

He cut me off soon after I mentioned Muybridge. "And have you heard about the very important Muybridge book that came out this year?"

So caught up was I in my assigned role as ingénue that I was perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that another book on the same subject had come out simultaneously and I'd somehow missed it. He was already telling me about the very important book -- with that smug look I know so well in a man holding forth, eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174918/rebecca_solnit_the_archipelago_of_arrogance

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. I almost posted this today, but had too many things to do...

It is a great story!

Made my blood boil...

As if we women didn't have enough problems...these men have to come along and patronize us...

Damn...

Thanks for posting!

K&R

[defendandprotect]

2. Yeah . . . I'm hoping that male and female DUers will read it --

[Speck Tater]

3. K&R - As a man with over 60 years of dealing with women,

I confess I had never noticed the one-sidedness of this phenomenon. But having read the article, in retrospect I can recall having seen this phenomenon occur over and over. What I had not recognized was that while these "Mr. Important" types might treat some men this way, they treat all women this way. I (as a man) have often been treated this way by another man, but only once in my life has a woman treated me this way. I can't imagine what it would be like to be treated this way consistently.

This is an important story, and all men need to ponder its significance.

[BlooInBloo]

4. How could anyone not know this? lol!

The sister fact is equally patently obvious: boys can't stand listening to girls.

[defendandprotect]

5. But what is your feeling on why....???

My feeling is that they are quickly trained to dismiss the importance of females ---

[Karenina]

12. True that! The play date was over

Ellen: (to the 4 male kidunits in the next room) Turn the game off now, our friends have to go!

No reaction.

Me: (calling them by name) Get your shoes on!

No reaction.

Nick stepping through the doorway: BOYS!

ALL FOUR SCRAMBLED INTO THE ROOM INSTANTLY.

Ellen and I just rolled our eyes at each other. :eyes::rofl::eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. I saw that phenomenon in my teaching career again and again

Some faculty members would be sitting around at lunch, and one of the women would comment that a certain male student was disrespectful and tended to skip class a lot. Another woman would agree and comment that she was glad when the term was over because his attitude poisoned the whole class.

And the men would all say, in effect, "I've never had any problems with him. He's not very bright, but there's nothing wrong with his behavior."

The other gender difference that I saw in teaching was in reactions to the type of female student who tried to get by with the "could you, o authoritative Mr. Professor, please have mercy on me, the poor helpless little girl?" act.

In such cases, the women and the gay men would be unanimous in seeing her as sly and manipulative.

[defendandprotect]

35. The males will always stick together . . . BUT, interestingly, also when

you have a go-around like this taking a hard look at males ... there will usually be a
female who will always volunteer that "times are changing" -- "things are improving" ---
i.e., they still stink but change is in the air. My sister is like that!!!

[Triana]

19. I've always thought that was it too...

...that they're taught that from a very young age.

[defendandprotect]

38. All they see around them is male/authority figures . . . male hierarchies ---

THEY know who they have to kiss ass with and who they can try to kick ass with.

Take a look at the NY Times front page --- you wouldn't know over the past 50 years that females
even exist!!!

I've written to them about this quite often ---
you'd read an article where both males and females would be quoted ---
but you'd only see photos of the males!! WTF is that?

Look at TV -- what you see constantly is females being degraded --- they are either washing Johns
or showing their tits --- WTF is that?

[BlooInBloo]

36. Partly that, and that's aided somewhat by the innocuous fact...

.... that boys' interests and girls' interests commonly differ somewhat. To some degree they live in different worlds, and so listening to someone in a different world isn't a hi-pri thing.

That and we're just dumb. :)

EDIT: For example, I didn't spend a lot of time listening to girls until graduate school, where the female profs and students there were playing the same game as I was. Listening to them, while somewhat of a novelty, became much more important to me at that point.

[defendandprotect]

42. Which brings up a number of interesting questions, if true . . .

I think we have to look at the male/female scale as put forth by Kinsey ---
I don't think it solely signals our sexual interests ---

Obviously, now that things are freer we are seeing males who adapt very well to taking care of
kids and following Mom around the department store helping to make selections --- even on personal clothing.
When homophobia is rampant, those males are not as open about those inclinations.

Maybe we also have an extreme male -- and maybe the more male you get the dumber you get? :)
QUOTE: That and we're just dumb. :) UNQUOTE

Obviously, patriarchy has been a suicidal concept for all of us!

And, I'd also volunteer that male medicine has also been suicidal for all of us -- !!! :)

As for male interests, I continue to be amazed --- at any age they will react to things that go
bang -- they just love car crashes and explosions. WTF is that?

A lot of their early and late humor -- is strickly homo-social -- male oriented -- farting from
every part of their bodies. WTF is that?

So I think we have degrees of maleness which are reinforced by patriarchy to bring about the securing of patriarchy.

Coming now to one of the questions which your observations caused me to consider is . . .
Maybe the males who can't hear females or recognize their value should be excluded
when females are looking to form family relationships?
Maybe those males would actually be happier in a strictly male homo-social environment?
In fact, perhaps women and children would better benefit if we returned to female-centered
families?

[BlooInBloo]

45. What?? A bang? Where? WHERE????

:rofl:

[tavalon]

7. Well, I'd like to say it hasn't happened to me, but I'd be lying

What is true is that they don't do it for long because I don't suffer fools gladly. If they aren't astute to catch my raised eyebrows, they usually figure it out when I say something like, "you've got to be kidding, right?" or the even more obvious point and laugh maneuver. But, OTOH, I've been told by many that I may look fully like a woman, I have a lot of male energy so I probably relate to them more in a man to man kind of way and while they may not realize on a superficial level that they're talking to another guy, on some level, they get it (rather quickly). Honestly, this just doesn't happen to me much anymore.

[Hekate]

6. I read this in the LA Times Opinion section with my morning coffee -- really excellent article

Thanks very much for posting it here.

Hekate

[liberal N proud]

8. What's to explain, some of us are total assholes

But don't judge us as a whole, we don't all patronize women. I am the only male in the house and I have help my wife raise girls that wouldn't tolerate this sort of behavior.

[Triana]

16. You're definitely NOT all that way...

...I've had the pleasure of working with men and talking to many men who were not patronizing at all. They treated me and talked to me like another equivalent human being. I always appreciate that.

[ColbertWatcher]

9. Someone actually did a study on this phenomenon...

...American Pyschological Association.

The study received an Ignobel Prize in 2000.

And just for fun, the name of the study was "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments." I found it funny that it came to the public eye in 2000, when America was installing an incompetent leaders who had difficulties recognizing his inflated self-assessments.

[Scout]

28. they are too incompent to know how incompetent they are n/t

[truedelphi]

43. Oh yes the good old I W B T A theory (Imbeciles Who Believe Themselves Almighty)

Guilty of it myself sometimes.

I remember babysitting a friend's eighteen month old. She kept pointing to the dining table we sat at, then pointing to her hair. She kept saying: "SAME!"

I kept saying - "No Emma, your hair is your hair and the table is a table."

She patiently kept at it. After a full five minutes, I realized that the ashy cream color of her hair exactly matched the ashy cream color of the table.

[susankh4]

10. Thanks for the post!

It is infuriating, isn't it? To be dismissed out of hand... just for being who you are.

[annabanana]

11. This is an excellent article. I expect every woman who reads it will

say "Well, Yes. Of course" and have an anecdote or two to add. I have no idea how the men will react. Perhaps some will say "Well yes... but not ME". Perhaps some will accuse the author of being "oversensitive", and of "exaggerating"...

[Triana]

15. Or they'll project...

..."well, maybe it's you WOMEN who are arrogant, not us!"

Hmm.

[0rganism]

33. I remembered some of the times I'd said regrettable things around women

:shrug:
I doubt there's a man over 15 who hasn't said something awful like that. Somehow it stings a lot more to know I've said something idiotic when women are present than not.

[Solly Mack]

13. K&R

Oh yeah...

[Triana]

14. There has hardly been a day in my life that...

...I hadn't been talked down to like an ignorant child by a man - however kindly - often about things I knew more about than they did. EVEN about articles I'd written myself. Their arrogance - some of them - is astounding.

The latest was a 26-year-old young man who still lives at home with his Mom and Dad who proceeded to TELL ME how to do things - with his 3 years experience (2 months with us) as compared to my 30+ years experience (and 3+ years at the place).

He was condescending, hostile, patronizing, and insubordinate (and WRONG). And he was written up for it by people higher up than me. He was told to cap it or leave. He's broken a few things since - not purposely but simply due to his lack of experience. Overall his work is good and he'll learn - and that's fine - to be expected. But his ego is 10x the size of his skillset or experience and that was a problem.

Anyway, Rebecca described this perfectly. And I am passing it on to every woman I know.

[Breeze54]

17. Me too and it pisses me off to no end!!

:grr:

I even had a landlord and his maintenance worker tell me what cold air and hot air felt like coming through a crack in the window insulation :eyes: :grr: and question me about water getting in through other windows and their reasoning that I didn't know what I was talking about was because none of the other tenants had complained and the maintenance guy actually asked me, "Then how come YOUR the only one with this problem? Did you leave a window open while it was raining?"; in a sarcastic way. Like I wasn't fucking intelligent enough to close the window during a storm!! :grr: Turned out, ALL the new windows, in both buildings, were leaking but I was the only one that had spoken up and complained and then finally the woman next door and her husband got it all on video and then they finally, after MONTHS of my complaining, figured out the problem and fixed it! A-holes!

[Triana]

18. Question: Did they ever *admit* to you that they were wrong?

Did they apologize?

Bet they didn't.

[Breeze54]

21. After my drapes and couch were soaked over and over and I mean monsoon 'rivers of water'

pouring in my windows and it was so bad during two storms I used all my bath towels to try soak it up and stop it from pouring off the sill onto my hardwood floors, they even had to bring me a dehumidifier; then months later they finally figured out that it wasn't the windows at all but the roof was crumbling. (It's a 1960 era brick townhouse) and as my "compensation" he sent me a $25.00 dinner gift certificate :eyes: and an apology via e-mail. Actually, his wife did and he's allowed me to stay here past my lease expiration (I was notified I had to move by Dec., as they're selling the place due to his heart attack.) But the maintenance worker is an old geiser and he's just a male chauvinist prick and I request he NOT come over when there's something needing fixing. I can't wait to get out of here though.

[Triana]

24. Wow. What a mess!

His WIFE did...oh my - not surprising. Well, at least they're allowing you to stay w/ no lease. I hope you get a decent place soon!

Can't believe they tried to blame YOU for this. Pffft!

[Breeze54]

25. The not taking me seriously was the most infuriating!

:grr:

[varelse]

20. This... could be my life's story

Of course, it does not describe ALL the men I've met in my life, or even most of them. But it is a frustrating phenomenon...and it is still happening... and I've noticed it being done to other women also. Too bad for them that I'm such a stubborn, arrogant woman, and don't often let them get away with it. :P

[trof]

22. I think I know that guy.

OK, not really him, but one of his clones.

He is the world's foremost authority on almost everything.
I avoid him like the plague now, but the few times I've been around him, he was boring to the point of being painful.

He doesn't TALK to you, he LECTURES you.
In a condescending tone of voice he postulates and bloviates while his ego swells in the certain knowledge that he is imparting pearls of wisdom so enlightening that you really should be taking this down.

And he is totally full of crap.
His wife, an otherwise intelligent and educated woman, hangs upon his every word and worships him. To her he is the fount of all knowledge and the smartest man on the planet.

:shrug:

[lukasahero]

27. I recommend spending more time with the article and the responses here

This is not "that" guy - for women it's "those" guys - many, many of them. You're missing the point (or are you minimizing it?)

[trof]

31. You RECOMMEND? Gee, thanks.

How about if I recommend you keep your assumptions about me to yourself?
Thanks for your unasked for and gratuitous 'recommendation'.
The OP article referred to one guy in particular.
Hence my reference to 'that guy'.
My reference included a little subtle tongue-in-cheek sarcasm, that apparently you didn't get.
If that chip on your shoulder gets too heavy to tote, maybe I can recommend someone to help you with it.

[Dora]

32. LOL.

You must've been at the head of the line. :)

[lukasahero]

39. Well, actually, no, the article does not "refer to one guy in particular"

It relates at least three specific anecdotes about different situations and goes on to make the case that this is a common occurence women face with many men.

But you know, feel free to prove the point. :)

[distantearlywarning]

26. God, this is SO true!

This is the #1 thing that irritates the crap out of me about men: When they don't know anything, they think they know everything. And all the rest of us are just expected to be an audience for them telling all about the things they don't know.

[distantearlywarning]

29. Kicked so it won't disappear.

This is a very important article.

[bemildred]

30. A very good piece.

LA Times had it this morning too. However this is not always gender related.
:hide:

[calimary]

34. Kick - GREAT article!

Every woman has had these Very Important Men in her life who felt she had to shut up because He had to talk. Sigh... I have found, through my own experience, that "He" usually has the bigger mouth.

:eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

37. Good article

When Lawrence H. Summers made his infamous comments about differences between men and women in science and mathematics as a matter of genetics rather than socialization--no matter how much he back tracked on his comments-- this attitude reached one of its depths. Certain gendered sociology and evolutionary psychology studies are equally disgusting.

[morgan2]

40. Every person is talked down to at times

You either live with it or stand up for yourself. It tends to happen to women more because most women won't assert themselves as directly. There are dick heads out there and they don't just talk down to women, they do it to everyone.

[Breeze54]

41. Men do it to women all the time... even if they stand their ground.

They start it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. And if they DO stand their ground, then they're

"intimidating bitches."

[Breeze54]

47. Well, of course but men are "just stating their case"....

:eyes:

Such double standards, it's sickening. :grr:

[Scout]

48. he "knows his own mind" but she is opinionated n/t

[Ellen Forradalom]

44. That was my dad all over

God rest his soul, but he did this shit ALL THE TIME.

[TransitJohn]

49. Sounds like

..how the anti-smoking crowd talk to the smoking crowd on DU :hide: