Ethanol ..... its what happens when politics trumps science and good intentions.

[Stinky The Clown]

The public furor to get off the teat of oil led some to call for ethanol (among other calls) as a fuel alternative. They cited Brazil as a case in point.

Perfect. A rosy picture of happy farmers growing our motor fuel. Morph a John Deere and ADM commercial and use lots of overall clad guys with blond girls waving goodbye to them as the leave for work on their tractor.

Except it isn't perfect. The ethanol teat is as bad as the oil teat. Just different. We are already seeing soaring food prices, not just because of the cost of energy to grow ands transport it, but also from the diversion of food crop land to energy crop land. We just replacing one monster for another.

Add to that the US government's subsidizing agribusiness in much the same way we subsidize petrobusiness. Meanwhile, the little guy - and the small farmer - are getting fucked.

Windmill farms are sprouting up like mushrooms after a long rain. Why? For the public weal? Not if you think about who's building them. Big Bidniss again. More subsidies.

How about we consider maybe nationalizing at least NEW energy development?

Like wind. Like tidal. Like hydro. Like geothermal. Like solar.

Who is looking into solar, not direct to electricity, but to heat water (or some even more, but as yet undiscovered, thermally efficient fluid) to run stuff?

The giants of Big Bidniss have no imagination beyond how to cash in on the next fad or wave of government largess.

Oh how I hate Republicanthink.

And corporate welfare.

[spanone]

1. they changed the greed need from oil to grain....no solution at all to the energy crisis

most farms are owned by huge corporations like ADM ala exxon mobil

[johnaries]

2. The prices of food are soaring because OIL prices are soaring.

While I agree we need to develop all the other sources you mentioned, don't fall for the BS that the prices are going up because of some "huge" edmand for ethanol. First of all the demand isn't that huge (yet). Secondly, ALL food prices are going up, not just energy crops.

It takes fuel to farm. The price of food has skyrocketed because of skyrocketing oil prices. Period.

[DU9598]

5. You got that right Johnaries

The big oil lies against ethanol are meant to cut at the throats of the competitor. The studies showing ethanol being inefficient in production were disproved in the early 1990's, yet I hear that lie on here at least once per week.

[Zodiak]

8. Depends on how you make the ethanol.

If you farm corn by standard methods and make it into ethanol, then the return for the investment sucks, but other crops or alternative methods (like recycling fermentable materials) can have a reasonable level of efficiency.

Still...it is not going to work across the board. Ethanol should only be one component of a new multi-pronged approach to energy development. Wind, water, geothermal, even nuclear will all have to contribute according to demand and geographical constraints.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. Excellent summation

Brazil uses sugar cane, mostly.

Corn is not all that great as a biofuel crop.

[johnaries]

11. True. Cellulosic ethanol is the way to go

once the production methods are improved. But I've been hearing a lot on the news lately how "biofuels" are causing food shortages and rising prices, and that is clearly a smear campaign.

[AdHocSolver]

10. The demand for ethanol IS driving up food prices.

The oil companies are bidding up the price of corn as they are competing with food producers for a relatively fixed supply of corn. The oil companies have the cash to pay, and the price they are willing to pay is much greater than what the food producers have had to pay.

Even if the ethanol usage is relatively small compared to food usage, the price oil companies are willing to pay sets the price for ALL corn, not just for the amount that oil companies are willing to buy.

The price is set by relative values of supply and demand. Supply is the quantity of a good that is actually offered for sale. Demand is the quantity that people with cash in hand are willing to purchase at a given price. The going price is the latest amount that purchasers are willing to pay, and buyers are willing to sell. The oil companies, in this case, set the price for all buyers.

Beyond that, many agribusinesses are converting their fields from other food crops to corn production, reducing the supply of those food crops, and pushing their prices up, also.

Since many meat and dairy farms feed grain to their animals, those prices are rising as well.

Making ethanol out of grain is a losing proposition beyond the cost increases in food. Adding ethanol to gasoline reduces your vehicle's fuel mileage, so it saves NO oil, since you have to buy more gasoline to drive the same number of miles. Consequently, this practice does NOT save oil, does NOT reduce pollution, and does NOT save you money. In fact, it costs everyone MORE money.

Adding ethanol made from corn to gasoline is very profitable for the corporations, but it is absolutely a losing proposition for the American consumer.

[BlooInBloo]

3. The idea of science being independent of politics and the like is just something made up...

... by people who know nothing of history or science.

[spanone]

4. this administration had done more than it's share of dumbing down science

[BlooInBloo]

6. True that... Though I suspect that ethanol existed as an issue long before gw took office.

EDIT: Supplemented subject.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

7. The ethanol plan was set up years ago by politicians and

agribusiness as a way to steal tax dollars, and no one fought them, or did the math about production, it was sold as being clean.