Middle Class stock ownership. Why? Because its all they have anymore for retirement.

[Postman]

What happened to company pensions? Gone or reduced to poverty subsistence so they're forced into trying their hand at the Wall Street Casino....


http://www.commondreams.org/views/072600-101.htm

Nearly half of all American households participate in the stock market. Some manage their own portfolios. Some hold stock through 401(k) plans, or other tax-advantaged accounts. Only 32 percent of households owned stocks in 1989.

But there are other numbers. Despite the impressive growth in stock ownership, more than half of American households still do not possess a single share. And those that do generally don't have the kind of portfolio that would replace the level of security found in government programs. Of Americans who do own stock, half have portfolios valued at $50,000 or less. Without Medicare to pick up the bill, a heart-bypass operation with minor complications would wipe out the entire $50,000.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. The median retirement plan for 21 to 64 YOs is about $17000.

Think you're going to retire on that? :rofl:

[comradebillyboy]

11. I am retiring in 2 years and I think I'll be quite comfortable

despite my being a rather poorly paid school teacher. New Mexico doesn't pay us very well and we don't get great retirement benefits. But our very nice house is paid for, our cars are paid for, I have no debt, and my wife and I have saved a goodly portion of our incomes for the last 32 years (since we got married). But over 20 years of my working career was as a professional engineer and I did make good money then. I now make about half of what I made when I left the engineering profession. I took a 75% pay cut when I started teaching (math and physics) 12 years ago.

My parents grew up during the great depression and they brainwashed us to avoid debt, live frugally and save save save (better yet we invested well, but they were very risk averse and avoided the market). Ya know what, it works. I'll have plenty of money to buy more guns and spend more time shooting, exercising, biking and traveling with my wife. I might even hire an escort from time to time, if the wife is out of town.

Don't hold your breath waiting for your employer or the government or god (not even the long prophesied Messiah, Big O) to save you. No one will, you had better save yourself. Still we are very generous in our charitable giving, and support government programs to help the needy, because too many can't take care of themselves.

You are your own salvation

[cap]

17. you are relying on the government in your old age...

it's the teacher's pension that is supported by government. Not everyone is going to fall into a government backed pension that is also accompanied by a government backed retirement health benefits. We, the taxpayers, are your salvation. If we do not continue to support COLA's for your retirement, it will be meaningless. Why not extend that largesse to the rest of the citizens of this country.

You left being a professional engineer because you were not going to have income stability nor a retirement. There aren't many professional engineers over 50 in many companies. Not everyone can migrate into a sinecure. You may have found your security but what about the engineers who process your paycheck? Over 40% of computer engineers are hired on a contingent basis. That means they will not have job security and their savings will be eaten up in the next layoff. Somebody has got to see that you get paid. Why not give them the same security that you enjoy? Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. Many engineers make lousy teachers.

Retirement security is a shared problem. Your $200-300K of savings will only allow a payout of 20-30K over 10 years. You are going to be living until your 80's or even 90's. You will outlive your personal savings and be glad the taxpayers are bailing you out. Without the 20-30K/year of a retirement benefit you will not make it. That 20-30K will be translating into $400-900K extra depending on your life expectancy.

[JDPriestly]

19. Pensions are deferred income.

A teacher's pension is actually earned when the teacher is working as a teacher. The teacher's pension is not a gift by taxpayers to the teachers. It is bargained for as part of the teacher's compensation. I agree that everyone should have a pension. The 401(K) concept is extremely flawed. It puts the onus of making extremely important and extremely complex investment decisions on people who are not equipped to make them. It also allows a people to choose to spend, spend, spend now and then rely on hand-outs from the government later. We should all be in involved in mandatory pension savings plans that are underwritten by the government. I agree with you there.

Also, if ordinary people are to be given the option of making their own investment decisions and are encouraged to invest in the stock market, the information provided to them should be much more transparent. Companies that are allowed to accept investments from pension funds and individuals' pension accounts should be required to reveal much more about their financial condition, including the deals they make with brokers, especially the kickbacks. Mutual funds and investment companies and managers should be required to disclose all aspects of the management fees they charge as well as their sources of income so that investors can be sure that their mutual fund managers are not taking kick-backs for directing investments to certain companies.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

18. By your own admission, you spent 20 years making good money as an engineer

Do you think if you'd been a low paid teacher that whole time that you'd be in the same fortunate position? Or what if you or your wife had a major medical problem that required you to tap into your savings? What if you'd been an airline pilot and watched helplessly as your pension was stripped?

Good for you for having the right combination of luck and skill to take care of your own retirement. Many millions of others are in a very different situation, often through no fault of their own, and no amount of patronizing lectures are going to save them.


Oh and BTW, the little 'escort' crack was not funny at all. :thumbsup:

[Rosemary2205]

22. On the flip side

My test scores were not good enough to qualify for college. I am sure I have always made less than the teachers. I lived debt free except for the mortgage, and even then we bought half the house the bank said we could afford. We bought in an area with not the best schools but it was all ours. Our home has not appreciated much over the years by comparison to what seems to be the norm around the country. There was never any "bubble" here in shit sandwich central. We saved everything we possibly could, which was never much. Getting thrown off a cliff by an uninsured drunk driver has eaten up every penny of savings I ever had, and left me with nearly 1 million in medical debts. Slowly but surely, I've managed to convince most of them to write most of it off and not force me into bankruptcy.

Luck, and opportunity have a lot to do with ever being able to retire.

[elizfeelinggreat]

30. well said, Rosemary

Many people live lean --- but the lucky ones often don't realize that they have been lucky (or don't want to).

[PassingFair]

33. "You are your own salvation"

Glory!

:sarcasm:

[cornermouse]

2. I think its a pyramid scheme.

Once enough money is circulating in the stock market, the "right people" will pull their money back.

[SoCalDem]

7. It's the next "shoe" to drop.. mark my words

our 401-k lost $6245.00 this last quarter, and our (so-called) house value dropped by about $40K...we are not planning on selling any time soon, so it's a moot point ,and we are not "equity-hounds"...we probably have about $150K equity in it (even with the downturn)..

But we are losing ground right at the time we need acceleration (he=64..me= 59)..

This was all planned out long ago, by people much craftier than we are..

It's a rigged game, folks... better odds in Vegas..

[JDPriestly]

12. You got it. That is exactly what it is.

Go to Yahoo finance. Check the charts and compare the prices of of the Dow Jones in Jan. 2001 and today. Then check the value of the dollar as opposed to the Euro in Jan. 2001 and today. You will quickly see that the Dow Jones stock has increased in terms of dollars, but the dollar has so severely decreased in terms of the Euro that the "increase" in the Dow Jones is an illusion. It's a joke.

Our economy is tanking. And the futures of all of us who are in our 60s are tanking with it. We are being scammed. We buy stock (with our 401(K) money) and raise the value of the Dow and the rest of the stock market. But, while we are focusing on buying our stock, the Bushies and the international big business community are exploiting our resources, bankrupting our economy and moving our national wealth overseas -- so much so that the dollar has plummeted.

It's like a magic trick and a Ponzi scheme all in one. We are being distracted then duped. And the "healthy" stock market numbers are cited as evidence that in fact we have nothing to worry about because our economy is fine.

[Lasher]

14. The S&P 500 is now lower than it was on January 22, 2001.

And that's in non-adjusted dollars! The index has never done anywhere near as badly under any other president, ever.

Prior to 2001 the S&P was cited most often as an indication of how well the stock market is doing, and correctly so. It tracks the 500 largest US companies, while the Dow includes only 30. But since the Dow has been doing better than the S&P, the lapdog media has been citing it most often. This is one sleight of hand tactic that is used to deceive us.

But don't blame the stock market. The problem is the Bush administration and all the supply-side worshippers of Saint Ronnie.

[Greyhound]

38. ...and the DJIA is adjusted to only include the best performing huge corporations.

Just to reinforce your point. :thumbsup:
:kick:

[Greyhound]

28. GIVE THAT MOUSE A CIGAR, WE HAVE A WINNER! n/t

[AZ Criminal JD]

39. If it is a pyramid scheme it has been going on for over a 100 years.

There are scores of millions of investors. It is impossible for the "right people" to make any significant difference.

[Hannah Bell]

41. Not so. A fraction of the population owns the biggest chunk of stock,

& pension funds, mutual funds, etc. are managed by employees of that small fraction. As is the fed & other Agencies that guide the economy.

[AZ Criminal JD]

46. People's 401ks and pensions are tied to stock.

So they own portions of the stock. Of course the funds are managed by employees. So what? Who else would do it?

[Gman]

3. And Obama would raise the capital gains tax on over half of American households

these same working people that have a few investments will have to pay more in taxes if they sell and make money if Obama has his way.

[Postman]

4. Wrong. Over half of Americans DON'T own stock...

and the stock they do own is less than $50,000.00 on average.

Obama said there would be exceptions to any idea of raising revenue through capital gains. Don't fall into the trap republicans use when talking taxes...

"All the dems want to do is raise taxes".......general statements such as this do not go far eneough in getting to the heart of the matter. Ask Who's taxes? Taxes at what level?

[catnhatnh]

5. "More than half do not possess a single share"

So when you refer to households, you are being disingenious.....that is called "spinning".

[JCMach1]

15. Not true as most pension funds include shares in their makeup

However, that's not taxed of course...

Ownership gets damn close to 100% if you include that... I would say 80plus%

[Juche]

6. houses are excluded

250-500k of housing capital gains is excluded if it is the primary residence. Since the average household has their home as their primary source of capital gains its not a big issue. As far as capital gains, much of the benefit goes to the well off, who have seen their income double or triple while getting a tax cut in the last few decades.

http://www.cbpp.org/1-30-06tax2.htm

Over half — 54 percent — of all capital gains and dividend income flows to the 0.2 percent of households with annual incomes over $1 million. More than three-quarters — 78 percent — of this income goes to those households with income over $200,000, which account for about 3 percent of all households.


This is like Bush's tax cuts, give all the benefits to the rich and a few crumbs to the middle class so they won't complain.

[Lasher]

13. 401(k)s and IRAs are not subject to capital gain or dividend taxes.

This Republican talking point is easily defeated. 401(k)s and IRAs are subject to taxes only when money is withdrawn, and then it is considered ordinary income and as such, are subject to taxes of up to 35%. The current 15% rate on capital gains and dividends applies only to holdings in taxable accounts and not 401(k)s or IRAs. The following is according to the article you linked:

Only 17 percent of households in the bottom 60 percent of the income spectrum own stock in taxable accounts. In contrast, 73 percent of the households in the top 10 percent of the income spectrum own stock in taxable accounts. Among those at the very top of the income spectrum — the top one percent — 84 percent own stock in taxable accounts.

Further, among those households that own taxable stock, the average holding is much larger for those at the top of the income spectrum than for those with more modest means. For households in the bottom 60 percent of the population that have any taxable stock, the average value of the holding is about $52,000 (in 2001 dollars). The average value is nearly $2 million for those in the top one percent of households.

Because taxable stock holdings are both smaller and less common for the bottom 60 percent of households, this group owns only 9 percent of all taxable stock. The top 10 percent owns 70 percent of all taxable stock. The top one percent owns 29 percent of all taxable stock.

Further, focusing on the number of households claiming capital gains and dividend income does not tell the full story; it is much more important to look at the amount of capital gains and dividend income collected by various income groups.

Over half — 54 percent — of all capital gains and dividend income flows to the 0.2 percent of households with annual incomes over $1 million. More than three-quarters — 78 percent — of this income goes to those households with income over $200,000, which account for about 3 percent of all households (as you noted).

In contrast, only 11 percent of capital gains and dividend income goes to the 86 percent of households with incomes of less than $100,000. Only 4 percent of this income flows to the 64 percent of households that have income of less than $50,000.

For those making less than $100,000, taxable capital gains and dividend income makes up an average of 1.4 percent of total income. For those making over $100,000, this income accounts for 12.2 percent of total income on average; for those making over $1 million, the share rises to an average of 31.4 percent.

We are certainly not 'in the same boat' insofar as capital gain and dividend taxes are concerned. Obama doesn't go far enough. Capital gains and dividends need to be taxed as income, just as are the withdrawals from IRAs.

[Cassandra]

8. You must be Charlie Gibson...

since his capital gains are all he cares about, too.

[panAmerican]

9. You are misinformed. Capital gain tax rate is as low as 5%

It's as if you said the personal tax rate is 35%. Very few people actually make enough to pay the 15%. This is why Obama said it could be a adjusted for people making somewhere between $200K and $250K.

[razors edge]

10. Don't get me started G-man.

[Gman]

20. LOL!

[razors edge]

24. He who laughs last...

[Rosemary2205]

21. Liar.

[Gman]

23. Why don't you read some of these first before you go calling people names

http://news.google.com/news?q=obama+capital+gains+tax&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&hl=en&sa=X&oi=news_result&resnum=1&ct=title

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2007/9/19/obama-pushes-for-higher-investment-taxes.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/19/us/politics/19obama.html?ref=politics

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03282008/news/nationalnews/barack__id_hike_capital_gains_tax_103875.htm

http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070920154627.aspx

[razors edge]

25. I checked you links.

Didn't need to read far into any of them to get a sense of where your coming from.

It seems as though you are saying that capital gains taxes should stay the same as they are or perhaps even be lowered. correct me if I'm wrong.

Enlighten my uneducated stance a tad if you will.

When an investor uses, lets say, $100,000.00 of his own so called hard earned money, to make a ten percent profit in the markets (wherever), does he pay taxes on the whole $110,000.00 he now has at the end of the year, of just the $10,000.00 in profit?

Since we all know the answer to that one, I will ask you this. Why should a man get out of bed every day for forty years, go down to the drug store to sell Flair pens, (old Steve Martin reference, forgive me) and pay taxes on 100% of his annual income as though he invested nothing of value in obtaining said income and not be in the least bit upset that the investor is tax exempt on their front money, while his time and labor are considered worthless in comparison?

[Greyhound]

26. Waiting for a reply...

:kick:

[Gman]

29. What you ask

predates pretty much everyone alive in this country. Don't know if that's a rhetorical question or not. There's not much, if anything that can be said to defend it or justify it.

[razors edge]

32. Many things predate pretty much every one alive,

But that was no reason to continue the enslavement of blacks, as an example.

Our constitution is clear, and the founders realized from their studies of other nations, that the taxation of wages is clearly slavery. (they no doubt had their prejudices against blacks, or anyone not white, in this whole grand idea of freedom, this does not diminish the principle.)

Since the 13th amendment was enacted, (notice I didn't say ratified) we have had to engage in wars of conquest to supply the basic needs of the taxed wage earners. This will continue until we either stop the enslavement of our own people, the people rise up and end it themselves, or someone from another nation either frees us or turns us into their bitch, much like we have done to others for too long.

I apolagize for the delay, but other personal matters have detained me.

You still haven't addressed my previous post. Do you feel capital gains should be taxed less or not at all? Do you think wages are fair game for the government to abscond with when they clearly have no accountability to the governed?

[PassingFair]

34. It's a new paradigm, DiktatrW....

:sarcasm:

[razors edge]

37. Meet the new boss,

same as the old boss.

[razors edge]

43. Waiting for a reply,

as you say.

[AZ Criminal JD]

40. Faulty logic.

The so-called front money has already been taxed unless he printed it.

[razors edge]

44. Interesting concept.

So if the cash invested has been taxed previously, it should not be taxed again?

Most everything I utilize to survive has been taxed, therefor I have been previously taxed as well.

As a previously taxed investor of my own humanity, I am being taxed again on my investment.

Fair is fair, right?

[Hannah Bell]

42. Try again. Most capital gains accrue to the top 5%.

Why should they only pay 15% on their income when labor pays more?

[MadHound]

16. Sad to say, but thoughtful investment in the markets is the only way to save money anymore

What with the interest rates that you're getting from savings accounts, money market accounts and CD's, all you're doing is losing money if you take one of those route due to the low interest rate they're paying and rising inflation that we're experiencing. Plus taxes could kill you.

Thus, a person is left with investing in the markets, which is a gamble. Your best bet at this point is to invest in a diversified portfolio, and don't forget to include foreign markets too, they actually might be the safest port in the storm right now.

[Greyhound]

27. This was planned out in the 60s by those that rule us.

By forcing the entire population into their Ponzi scheme, the financial industry has increased it's influence exponentially. The next step is to get their filthy hands on Social Security funds.

[elizfeelinggreat]

31. It seems clear to me

that the corporations have been running our country as their own for quite some time.


How come everyone doesn't see it?

[Greyhound]

36. Except for the interruptions of the Roosevelts, they have ruled this nation

since the American Civil War. Both times they were allowed into office because they were of the ruling class and then betrayed their base.

While Teddy actually attacked and hurt them, FDR really did them a great favor. By forcing a slightly more equitable division of profits in the short-term, he maintained the system and it's institutions, which allowed them to remain in control and strengthen their stranglehold on the American mind.

As for why everyone doesn't see it, I saw a quote by Carl Sagan on another thread that makes sense to me.

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. it is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.)

[Junkdrawer]

35. I keep saying...as soon as interest rates to 6%, the Stock Market is toast...

Boomer money has stocks about 50% higher that P/Es say they should be.

[TheFarseer]

45. I think that is headed in the right direction

It's better if we all have a stake in our country and our economy. What is bad and what we have happening now is when some people pretend that we can replace the job market with the stock market. I sincerely think some on the right and even some on the left think we can have a situation where Americans own all these stocks and make a living collecting dividends when the people doing the labor and generating these profits are third world children making soccer balls for 19 cents a day or Mexicans making cars for 51 cents an hour and we won't need any Americans manufacturing anything. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN. Even if this situation came about (which it never would), how long would it be before the foreign labor got a tad upset that we are making all the money and they are doing all the work and they nationalize the damn thing? This line of thinking is just plain f**king stupid and will lead to complete disaster. Everyone owning stock is not bad and actually is desirable BUT this cannot come in tandem with the collapse of our job market.