Should The Ownership Of Pit Bulls Be Banned?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Poll question: Should The Ownership Of Pit Bulls Be Banned?

When kids feel like teasing Daniel Decembre, they sometimes call him "scarface."

It is a cruel but accurate description for a boy who five years ago was mauled by a pit bull that came tearing out of a house next to Ridgewood Park Elementary School and made a beeline for Daniel, who was waiting for his after-school tutoring. Teachers drove the dog off, but not before it had ripped into Daniel's face, taking off one of his ears.

"It's been horrible," Daniel, now 13, said of his disfigurement. "At school they just talk about me . . . other kids are scared of me."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/orl-dogbite1808apr18,0,7525358.story

[flvegan]

1. Hold on...

:popcorn:

Okay...NOW!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Thanks For The Kick

~

[Richard Steele]

4. Indeed.

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[Midlodemocrat]

57. Pass some to me.

[krispos42]

71. Scoot over

I got a tub of white cheddar that needs eatin'!

Want some?

:popcorn: :beer:

[AlCzervik]

3. oh boy, bookmarking because i have to make a costco run for a pallet of popcorn.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Maybe The Pit Bull Devotees Can Give The Poor Young Man His Face Back

~

[atreides1]

19. What about Owners Responsibility

Maybe anyone who owns a Pit Bull should be more responsible and control their animals.

[dmallind]

23. Well maybe

we should ban soccer training or can the soccer devotees give this man his face back?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/football.html?in_article_id=557799&in_page_id=1771

maybe we should ban motorcycling or can motorcycle devotees give this (non motorcycling) boy his face back (graphic image)

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=136730&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136541&contentPK=20077583&folderPk=79656&pNodeId=243835

maybe we should cut down all the trees or can tree devotees give this boy his face back?

http://archive.thisislancashire.co.uk/2005/6/20/431957.html


maybe we should grind up all the rocks or can rock devotees give this boy his face back

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Sep-06-Sat-2003/news/22101617.html

One quick google search. For some reason "horrific facial injuries" tends to be a UK term as an irrelevant aside. Most of the stories seemed to be from there.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. It's Interesting You Bring Up The U K

Pit bulls are banned there as they are banned in most enlightened nations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull


"we should ban soccer training or can the soccer devotees give this man his face back?"


Soccer is a participatory sport. Young Mr. Decembre didn't volunteer to be maluled by a pit, ergo:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/


"maybe we should ban motorcycling or can motorcycle devotees give this (non motorcycling) boy his face back"

Motorcycle riding is a voluntary activity.. Young Mr. Decembre didn't volunteer to be maluled by a pit, ergo:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/


"maybe we should grind up all the rocks or can rock devotees give this boy his face back."

The person that threw the rock should be removed from society as should pit bulls.


WHERE does young Mr. Decembre go to get his face BACK?




"maybe we should cut down all the trees or can tree devotees give this boy his face back?"


Tree climbing is a voluntary activity.. Young Mr. Decembre didn't volunteer to be maluled by a pit, ergo:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/

[dmallind]

34. Linguistic reasons and you continue to miss the point

The motorcycle accident victim was NOT motorcycling. He was hit by a motorcyclist. should the motorcyclist who hit him be punished? yes - at the least for hit and run and more if it was due to his negliegence. You are not asking for the pit bull and the pit bulls owner to be punished. You are asking for ALL pit bulls and their owners to be punished. Explain that difference please.

The rock victim was hit by a rock thrown by someone else. Should ALL people who resemble the rock thrower be punished for it? Explain this difference please,

"Voluntary activties" is a laughable strawman. Soccer players don't volunteer to have their face torn apart. Tree climbers don;t volunteer to fall and swallow their own jawbones. Their activities cause some risk. So does simply being alive. If you want to avoid all risk, stay in a locked building in a padded sterile room.

Where does he go to get his face back? A plastic surgeon. Who should pay for it? The owner of the pit bull who bit him would be the best option. Tell me if a black man or an Hispanic woman hits me in the face with a baseball bat do I look for recompense or retribution against them or against all black men or Hispanic women?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. ?

"Voluntary activties" is a laughable strawman. Soccer players don't volunteer to have their face torn apart. Tree climbers don;t volunteer to fall and swallow their own jawbones. Their activities cause some risk. So does simply being alive. If you want to avoid all risk, stay in a locked building in a padded sterile room."

Life involves risk but one can manage the risks... Are you saying an accountant faces the same risk as a logger?


The Bureau Of Labor Statistics comes to a different conclusion,ergo:




http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp

[dmallind]

62. You seem to be conflating two issues

Because the risk of pitbull attacks in being out in public is less than the risk of harm in soccer or logging, a pitbull attack on somebody who is just out in public must be blamed on all pitbulls, whereas any harm that happens to a soccer player or logger is their own problem?


Does that about cover it?

Where does that line crossover for you? How little risk of something does there have to be for there to be collective responsibility? How much risk does there have to be for it to be your own damn problem? I mean the risk of pitbull attacks for those out in public compared to the risk of serious facial injury from playing soccer or the risk of being hit by a motorcycle just walking around are all pretty damn low, but apparently to you there's a line there that means that the pit bull risk is the fault of all pit bulls, and the motorcycle risk or soccer risk is not the fault of all motorcyclists or all soccer players. Just wondering what number or activity that line intersects.

Again my main issue is that of collective responsibility. Why are all pit bulls blamed for a pitbull attack but all Pomeranians not blamed for one of them killing an infant? You CAN'T be dense enough not to see that difference, since you can access the internet and type coherent sentences. Thus I have to conclude you are simply avoiding the question because you have no answer to it. Let me know when you think of one as I would (genuinely and without sarcasm) be interested in why this is a case of collective responsibility.


Full disclosure. I own (well "live with" is a bit more accurate) a lab. I have a feeling it will be a while before they rotate to the "killer breed" fad of the day but I also am pretty damn sure that somewhere at some time a lab has horribly injured somebody. If that happens again do you want to take all labs?

[PeaceNikki]

122. As I posted below: *THIS* is what happens with BSL in those "enlightened" nations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3174878&mesg_id=3176941

"Breed specific bans are ineffective and it is poor public policy... it is really a knee-jerk reaction to a specific problem. No one breed of dog is inherently dangerous. The real problem is the animal that's holding the leash, not the dog at the end of it."

http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2005/12/22/1474676.html

[bad_robbie]

40. Your post reminds me . . .

of this "infographic":



You're right that we have to be careful when using emotion to influence public policy that we need to include reason as well. One need not look any further than "post 9/11 world" to see how a very emotional tragedy can be used to justify actions that might be better not taken. Using feelings alone might not always lead toe the best course of action.

I know of a very sad experience with a pit bull, too. But this one is a little different. My girlfriend (now wife) lived in a rental house in a fairly rough neighborhood. Her block was a pretty nice one -- relatively speaking -- well integrated, with good neighbors. But crimes like burglary and larceny were uncomfortably high. Her neighbors got a pit bull, both as a pet and to dissuade crime. The dog was raised as a pet and actually very sweet, but since everyone knows about pit bulls, she was a good deterrent. She liked my wife, and slept in a dog house right outside my girlfriends bedroom window. This gave my girlfriend a lot of peace of mind, since the big dog would bark loudly at any strangers approaching, and she protected my girlfriend's house as if it were her own.

One night, the dog was murdered. Someone fed her poison, and the vet was unable to save her. The day after she died, the neighbor's lawnmower was stolen, and shortly afterwards, my girlfriend's house was burglarized. The conclusion that I drew (admittedly not provable) was that someone killed that dog for an old mower.

[Norwood]

68. Or maybe he could have been a responsible owner and raised his dog right.

Nah lets get just get rid of all the pit bulls. Round em all up and put them all down, after all why should the owner be responsible for anything.

[Runcible Spoon]

114. yes a real tragedy.

and when I was a kid, the asshole drunk neighbor left the lawnmower running and it went into drive and chewed off his kid's leg. PEOPLE need to take responsibility for abusing their responsibility to own a potentially dangerous thing, whether it be a pit bull terrier or a lawnmower.

[mainegreen]

6. Banning a breed wont solve the problem of blocking certain people from owning dogs.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Isn't that the same argument used against sensible gun control laws?

~

[mainegreen]

15. What? I think you have that backwards.

Sensible gun control laws ban certain people from owning guns.
This should apply to most anything that can be dangerous: guns, dogs, cars, motorboats, planes, etc. Some people are just too irresponsible and/or dangerous to have access to these things.

edited for spelling error mixing up 'to' and 'too'. ;)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Beside An Idiot With A Gun Nothing Is Scarier Than An Idiot With A Pit Bull

I'll take my chances with an idiot with a knife...

[mainegreen]

24. Or an idiot with a car.

So, why shouldn't we prevent certain people from ownership of certain dangerous items?

For example, in many states, after x number of strikes, drunks never get to drive again. Violent felons don't get guns. Abusers, or people who can't follow dog laws (leash or contain your pets, no abusing them) can't own dogs.

:shrug:

That way people like flvegan's rights don't get trampled because some idiot doesn't know how to handle a dog.

[Annces]

7. I think owning any animal should require a license

People treat animals as disposable. And why the need for dangerous aggressive fighting dogs? I was bitten by a hound dog a few years ago because it was not trained.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. When I Was Ten I Got Bitten By A Pointer...

Thank Jesus it wasn't a pit bull...

[dmallind]

9. Only if everything else that can possibly harm a few people is

What a silly suggestion.

Jeez I'm not even going grey yet and I can remember at least 6 breeds of dog that have become the "should we ban" du jour. Every time there has been some emotional anecdotal examples of how horrible these particular breeds are because they attack some person or other.

It makes every bit as much sense as saying should we ban people from Wisconsin because Jeffrey Dahmer was a wackjob.

Pit bulls per se are no more prone to be vicious than any other dog. They are simply, right now, more likely to be owned and bred and "trained" by idiotic cowards who think a tough dog makes them tough people than most other breeds, just like dobies and rottweilers before them to name but two previous "killer dog breeds".

Just wait a few years and ask this again about whatever breed the thugs decide to gravitate towards next as the fashionable macho extension.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. He (Was) Removed From Society As Should Pit Bulls...

"It makes every bit as much sense as saying should we ban people from Wisconsin because Jeffrey Dahmer was a wackjob."

[dmallind]

25. HE not THEY

We didn't ban all men from Wisconsin, or all gay men from Wisconsin or even all gay men with weird fetishes from Wisconsin.

That's a pretty big difference wouldn't you think? Now what should we do with this SPECIFIC pit bull? Probably not going to disagree much there. Why though you want to extend that to ALL pitbulls is beyond me unless you believe in collective guilt as a blanket concept, which of course would be a bit inconvenient for all of us since I'm sure we all share some demographic connection to somebody who did something horrible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. I Don't See The Analogy Between Gay Folks With Pit Bulls

I'll take with my chances with a gay man who wants to eat me over a pit pull who sees me as his dinner...

[dmallind]

35. Well forgive me but then you are either very dense or very dishonest

because I made the parallel very clear.

I'll make it far clearer and see if you continue to avoid a point you cannot answer or are simply incapable of it.


You want to punish ALL pit bulls and their owners because of what ONE did.

Why do you apply that to pit bulls and not gay men from Wisconsin?

[Richard Steele]

41. Be fair...

He could be BOTH, you know. This thread alone makes it a clear possibility.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Another Ad Hominem Attacker From The Anonymity Of A Computer Modem

Edited due to my lighter angels...

[Richard Steele]

69. What anonymity? I post under my real name here. PROJECTING much?

nm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

93. Whatever

edited again...

You're not worth it...

[flvegan]

101. IOW

you "ain't got shit"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. I Wasn't Talking To You, Pal...No Need To Become Verbally Abusive

You have a beef with me keep me let's keep it private...


I'll PM you...

[flvegan]

116. Thanks for the physical threat in my PM inbox.

My beef is with your bullshit argument and factual inaccuracy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. I Didn't See A Physical Threat There

~

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. Heres's The Nations That Ban Pits, Dick

Canada

Austrailia

France

Norway

United Kingdom

Denmark

New Zealand

The Netherlands

Are they dense and dishonest too?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. The Ad Hominem Attack Was Unjustified

Maybe I'm not as educated as you but I don't see the nexus between a cannibal who happened to be gay and a pit bull mauling the face of a young black man beyond recognition. I am sure a person of your estimable or inestimable intelligence can enlighten me...

[atreides1]

27. Yes he was

Only because a would-be victim escaped and returned with the police.

How would destroy an entire breed of dogs? And which particular animal would you go after next?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. How would destroy an entire breed of dogs?

Global
Place Status Type Date banned Details
Ontario, Canada<10> Active Province August 29, 2005 Pit bulls are not allowed to be imported into or brought through Ontario. Severe fines are in place for bringing new pit bulls into Ontario. Pit bulls owned prior to August 29, 2005 are grandfathered in. All grandfathered pit bulls of over 36 weeks of age are required to be sterilized immediately. Grandfathered pit bulls must be muzzled and leashed on a leash of less than 1.8 metres while in public. Sale of non-grandfathered pit bulls to residents of Ontario is illegal.
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada<11> Active City 1990 Pit Bulls are not allowed to be in Winnipeg by law.
Australia Active Country March 10, 2006 Legislation and implementation dates varies across the different states, but here is the start of a list of the legislation in the various states: New South Wales<12>, Victoria<13>, Western Australia<14>, Queensland<15>, Australian Capital Territory, Northern Territory, South Australia, Tasmania.
France<16> Active Country April 30, 1999 Ownership restricted; non-pure-breed animals resembling pit-bulls are to be surgically neutered
Norway Active Country 1991
United Kingdom<17> Active Country August 12, 1991 Specific breeds and similar cross-breeds banned under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991
Denmark Active Country Banned alongside the Tosa in 1991 along with any non-pure-bred dog where either of the races are among the parent or grandparent animals
New Zealand Active Country Must be microchipped, muzzled in public, and cannot be publicly advertised for sale
The Netherlands Active Country 1993


Those nations didn't have a problem...

What do they have in common?

They are all more enlightened than us on most issues of social justice...

[krispos42]

72. Do you have information about per-capita dog attacks before and after the ban?

In other words, has the ban done anything statistically significant? And are there other factors (such as better reporting) that may account for any change in numbers?

[rateyes]

10. No. But, owners of pit bulls who teach them to be, or treat them in ways

that make them aggressive should be imprisoned. It's not the dog--it's the owner.

Check out this video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vNicN-o1VyA

And, this article:

http://lassiegethelp.blogspot.com/2008/01/waz-pit-bull-wins-purinas-incredible.html

[navarth]

12. methinks the humans that raise the dogs make them bad

although I've heard that the dogs are naturally aggressive, I dunno...seems to me that a dog is going to be gentle if raised by gentle people.

A lot of these idiots with pit bulls are just dumb violent people.

[Sheets of Easter]

13. Great. This should keep the nature vs. nurture argument cycle going.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I Think The Argument Has More Relevance For Humans

I'm not an expert but I believe some animals are not meant to be domesticated...

[RaleighNCDUer]

67. Pits are not a different species.

All dogs are genetically alike, just as all humans are genetically alike. All dogs are descended from a particular breed of wild dogs that lived in western Asia 30,000 years ago.

IOW, pit bulls and pekinese are identical. They are both domesticated canids. Canis domesticus.

Rather than eliminating the breed, the entire breed could be brought back into line with other common breeds in a mere 3 generations of NOT culling the less aggressive (as fighting dog breeders do).

German Shepards, Huskies, Dobermans, Rottweilers have ALL been accused of being 'bad breeds' in the past. It's not the breed - it's the breeder.

[uppityperson]

109. Which of these dogs is a "pit bull"?

Or is any short haired big headed dog suspect?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthebull/findpitbull_v3.html
<"Pit bull" is not a breed, it is a term used to describe three different breeds with similar characteristics./div>
http://www.mnp13.com/FindThePitBull/FindThePitBull.aspx

[stratomagi]

16. I'm not much of an animal peacenick and all

but I have volunteered at an animal shelter and we have rehabilitated pit bulls to be sociable and lovable pets. These are powerful dogs and as such it is the owners often times that condition them to be more aggressive.

[Mike Daniels]

79. Anytime I've come across a pit bull I was more in danger of drowning

in slobber vs. being mauled to death.

Like any dog, if it's bred/trained to be vicious it will be vicious.

However, it's apparent from my experience that the opposite applies as well

[OnionPatch]

94. We found a stray pit mix.

We were going to take it to the pound until we realized it was the sweetest dog we ever met in our lives and the pound was going to euthanize it. Four years now and the dog has not shown the slightest hint of aggression, even in situations where most dogs would have. She is really the sweetest, friendliest dog I've ever known and I've known a lot of them. What about dogs like her? Should my dog have been put to sleep because of her breed? I have to side with those who believe the owners are the ones at fault. They train those dogs to be vicious for their own ego trips.

[Quantess]

80. Often? Isn't it more like, almost always?

The owners make all the difference in the world whether the dog will be vicious.

[seabeyond]

17. i voted no. i hate pits. i hate that owners own them in the neighborhoods

with children running around.... well not just children. i have lived across from a neighbor that first had three rots that ran in a pack and then two pits. male pit, mean, aggressive, confrontational and i had to look outside any time children went to play to make sure gate was shut. then i had to continue to keep eye out towards neighbors yard.

they will be the first to yell about their right

and fuck ours

and still

no i do not think pits should be banned

[RaleighNCDUer]

20. No. Ownership of pitbulls by assholes should be banned.

Dogs are dogs. There is no such thing as a bad breed.

Twenty years ago it was rotties. 30 to 40 years ago, it was dobermans. When I was a kid, it was German Shepards, few gawds sake.

Any large dog can be dangerous. I once knew someone who had a weimeraner that broke out the back window of their station wagon to get at someone she thought was threatening the family's young girl - and she was the sweetest dog you'd ever want to know.

The problem is that a great many pit bulls come from breeders who are deliberately breeding for dog fighting, who cull the less agressive from each litter with the double result that the agressive survive to breed and that the pack does not have the tempering influence of normal dog development. It's those breeders, and the those they are breeding for, who belong in cages.

[eShirl]

21. how about all the other breeds that have been known to maul children?

why just pitbulls?

i voted no, btw

[RebelOne]

26. Having owned two pit bulls, I love the breed, but they are

unpredictable. I think there should be a ban on breeding them. There are just too many irresponsible owners. My son breeds them and he gets an earful from me all the time, mainly because he is not careful of who he sells them to.

[IndianaJones]

28. sure. nt.

[natrat]

29. no, some verysweet pits out there,,,screen for ownership,,screen agressive dogs

[MadHound]

30. If you're going to ban pits, then you're going to have to ban virtually every other breed too

Because once again, let me repeat myself, it isn't the breed of the dog that makes them mean, it is the owner who trains them. If you subject any dog to the abuse given out to pit bulls in order to make them mean, then that dog too will be mean. Pit bulls happen to be the breed du jour that assholes are now choosing to make into mean dogs. It used to be German Shepards, then Dobies, now it's pits.

Yet at one time pits were a reputable breed. In fact the AKC gave them their top recommendation as a family friendly dog because they were so good with children And in an ironic turn of events, one of the most popular breeds, cocker spaniels, is also one of the top breeds for biting problems. Are you going to ban cockers? How about Pomeranians, since a few years back one killed a baby<http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/10/09/pomeranian.kills.ap/> Shall we ban them also?

Yes, there are assholes out there who for whatever reason train pits to be mean. But much of this pit bull hype is also media driven. Rather than banning entire breeds, crack down on the assholes who train the dog to be mean, and disallow them from owning any dog ever. Then you won't have to worry about pits or any other breed.

[Marrah_G]

36. I think owners of any large breed dog should be specially licensed

Too many people, who have no business owning a dog that could potentially kill a person, do so with no training or understanding of the breed. They choose them for the "cool" factor.

It is a disservice to the community and to the dog.

[madrchsod]

37. their shit for brains owners should be banned

[BlooInBloo]

38. I don't care HOW MANY people they attack! There's nothing wrong with them!

:rofl:


EDIT: Changed "kill" to "attack".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Where Have You Been?

I interrupted my hiatus from DU to post this poll...

[IndianaJones]

45. they're misunderstood. nt.

[LeftyMom]

43. Posting of flamebait polls should be banned.

:grr:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. It's Not FlameBait

I don't think young Mr. Decembre or his anguished parents think this is a trivial topic... The young man lives in my area... If there was anything I could do for him I would.


:grr: INDEED

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. And Maybe You Should See How Many Enlightened European Countries Ban Pits

Canada*

Austrailia*

France

Norway

United Kingdom

Denmark

New Zealand

The Netherlands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

*not technically a Europrean nation

[IndianaJones]

48. didn't know that. good information. I lean toward banning the breed. nt.

[LeftyMom]

56. Yes, if other countries respond to stupid media hysteria, we should too.

The scare dog thing is cyclic. In the past the "dangerous" dog du jour has been: rotties, danes, german shepherds, dobermans... etc. None of those dogs were especially dangerous, they just were briefly popular with asshats who wanted a "dangerous" dog. The problem isn't any one breed, it's stupid owners who don't train or properly keep their dogs. If you want to reduce dog attacks on humans (from any breed) mandate sterilization (unaltered dogs are more likely to bite,) forbid fixed point tethering (dogs who are routinely tied up are more likely to bite,) and use the law to discourage backyard breeders, who pump out asocialized and often genetically damaged specimens of whatever the dog du jour is.

[LeftyMom]

51. Here's a hint: when you post a thread and the first repilies all look like this:

:popcorn:

your thread is flamebait.

Also, pitbull flamewars go in the lounge, and you lose points for failing to mention breastfeeding, smoking, noisy children, the Olive Garden, oriental gardeners or Laura Brannigan. Fail.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. None Of The Other Activities You Mentioned Post A Mortal Danger

That kid lives in my home town...

[LeftyMom]

60. Neither do well kept dogs. If you want to ban anything, ban poor ownership practices.

Dogs only become dangerous if abused or neglected.

[Midlodemocrat]

58. Absolutely.

:thumbsup:

[newfie11]

50. The problem with Pit Bulls is the ego of the owners!

Many times Joe Blow buys one to make himself look cool. Then thinks it is wonderful for his dog to terrorize the neighborhood and see how many dogs and cats it can kill. The other side of the coin is someone that has NO idea how to handle/socialize a powerful dog.
It is time the idiots that have fighting pits (as in an area for holding dog fights) be arrested. As it is now if a person has a pit used for fighting but there is no proof our local humane society cannot remove the dogs. There are video's for rent or sale that show how to do this disgusting thing.

I don't have Pit Bulls, I have and show Newfoundlands. The Pits I see at shows are socialized and a totally different dog from what you see running loose on the streets.They didn't get that way from being kept out in the back yard in a kennel and ignored or left to run the streets with no supervision.

[-..__...]

53. Sure...

because "banning" things we don't like/for our own good (safety), is such a progressive attitude.

:sarcasm:

[IndianaJones]

55. yeah...like guns. nt.

[-..__...]

102. Do you have a problem with that?

Obviously I don't. :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I Guess These Nations That Banned Pits Are Reactionary

Canada

Austrailia

France

Norway

United Kingdom

Denmark

New Zealand

The Netherlands

What's ironic is these nations are the most socially liberal in the world...

Oh, I don't favor banning things I don't like; only things that provide an imminent danger...

It's ironic... I can move to Canada and marry the person of my choice, regardless of gender but in America I can't marry the person of my choice but can own a pit...

I guess all freedoms aren't equal...

[flvegan]

64. I don't believe it's all of Canada.

It's a province and a city.

And the UK is reactionary. After a series of attacks, Parliament banned dogs it thought may be involved in them. Pretty reactionary if you ask me.

[Mike Daniels]

81. United Kingdom - aka the country that gave us the Spice Girls and the prototype for American Idol

Yep, there's a country I should take cues from when it comes to what dogs we should own.

[-..__...]

100. Sheeple, conformists and government tools.

Scary dogs... "Oh my"!... "lets ban them"!

"Socially liberal" industrialized countries, homogeneous societies yes. Their ethnic, cultural and religious diversity leaves a lot to be desired.

The United Kingdom... yeah, right. Their surveillance and tracking policies (proposed or in effect), would make Stalin green with envy.

"Choice"... of the 8 you listed, only 2 (Canada and The Netherlands), allow same sex marriage (of the countries you didn't list... Spain, South Africa and Belgium permit same sex marriage).


Oh, I don't favor banning things I don't like; only things that provide an imminent danger...

In other words... the things you're afraid of or distrust. Pit bulls an "imminent danger"? :eyes: Maybe if you live next door to a meth lab or Michael Vick

It's ironic... I can move to Canada and marry the person of my choice, regardless of gender but in America I can't marry the person of my choice but can own a pit... I guess all freedoms aren't equal...

No... all fears aren't equal...

"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither"
-- Benjamin Franklin

Scary dogs... scary gays. It's all a matter of perspective. You just want it your way and feel cozy about it just like the other side does.

Drink from the collective Kool-Aid bowl if you wish.

Myself... I tend to keep out of other peoples business and not worry about what they might be doing or what they might own.

[Paladin]

113. So....Who Are You Backing: Clinton Or Obama?

Extra points for honesty......

[joeybee12]

61. I don't know...it's the owners perhaps who should be banned...

...when you see Animal Cops and there are puppy pit bulls, they can be rescued because they can be trained and brought up well. The problem is the majority of people get pit bulls to teach them to be mean and to fight. Once they learn that, they're beyond redemption.

[flvegan]

63. Why doesn't an elementary school with 19 reported instances of dogs on campus

change their policy of keeping a gate open?

Nah, logic sucks. Even though that logic would've changed this little boy's life for the better, and saved them around $2 million.

[benEzra]

65. Mistreatment of any breed should be banned.

But if we outlawed every breed that was the "bad dog fad" du jour, then the following breeds would now be banned:

German Shepherd
St. Bernard
Rottweiler
Bull terriers
Mastiffs

etc. etc.

and it would continue until all big-dog breeds were banned. If all the above were banned, the lowlifes who fight dogs for sport would be raising vicious huskies and black Labradors, and the media would be bleating about how "wolflike dogs" and Labs need to be banned...

ANY large dog is dangerous if it's been tortured since it was a puppy and trained to ferociously attack anything it sees. It's not breed specific.

[PeaceNikki]

76. In addition, banning one breed gives a false sense of security

We should throw the book at the bastards who mistreat any dogs.

We should harshly punish those who are irresponsible dog owners and/or breeders.

We should teach all people that ANY dog of decent size has the POTENTIAL of hurting people if mistreated or poorly trained.

We should teach children how to approach strange dogs.

But banning a single breed is a futile and useless reactionary response to media hype.

[paulk]

66. Denver bans them inside city limits

and I think that's a good idea. They are a particularly volatile breed and many of the owners like them for that reason. And go out of their way to make them even more so.

Over the years several people have been attacked and killed by pitbulls here, not to mention the numerous dogs and cats...

which is what led to the banning.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Should we ban Mexicans?

There was a Mexican that drunk and drove and killed somebody a few months ago. Several people were using it as an argument on why we should ban Mexicans.

[MiniMe]

73. Just like with guns, its about responsible ownership

Any dog could potentially bite a human being, but like with anything else, it is more likely to happen with some breeds. I volunteer for a lab rescue, labs are generally a very gentle and loving breed, but sometimes labs bite. There are certain breeds that are harder to own and take more of an effort than others, they are the typical "agressive" breeds, Pits, Dobermans, Rots, and Shepards. Don't get your dander up over this, it is the personality of the breed in general. A strong owner can train the dog to be a wonderful dog, and many of these breeds are just that, wonderful dogs.

I think it is the owners responsibility to contain the dog in their property, the dog goes by instinct. Yes, sometimes dogs just get out, and some dogs are definitely houdinis, but if a dog consistently gets out of the yard, steps need to make the fence more secure. I definitely think that the owners should be held accountable, but I think wiping out a breed is just wrong. Besides, there are so many pit mixes now, you would never be able to get rid of the genes completely.

[galledgoblin]

74. of course not

any sort of dog, even the adorable ones, can be trained to be cold-blooded killers.

I agree we should have better regulation of who owns pets, to keep tragedies like this from happening and also to keep people from abusing animals in other ways, but banning a breed? not the way to go!!

[Iggo]

75. No. Books should be banned.

Jeez, keep up.

[auburngrad82]

77. Bad breeders and bad owners have destroyed the pit bull's reputation

They can be incredibly sweet dogs. They are very good with people, less good with other dogs, but can be socialized and trained to be ok with other dogs. They are so good with people that they are the number one breed of dogs stolen from yards. They will literally go with anyone. Unfortunately, many of the stolen ones end up in fighting pits.

The problem is unscrupulous breeders and ignorant owners. I saw a young man bring a three-week old pit bull into a vet clinic. His puppy wasn't eating and they were having to tube feed it. Well, guess what? A three week old puppy shouldn't be eating kibble anyway!

I asked him about it and he said the breeder told him he was going to have the puppies put down if no one took them. So he took one, even though it was much too young to be away from it's mother. No puppy should be taken away from its mother before 8 weeks. There is a lot of socialization that goes on between 5 and 8 weeks old and it's a very important time in the mental development of dogs. It's the time when they basically learn how to be dogs.

Breeder's like the one who sold this pup at the age of three weeks should be jailed and people need to be educated about dogs in general, not just bully breeds.

I hate what has happened to the pit bull as a breed but it may be too late to save it's reputation.

[PeaceNikki]

78. Define "pit bull"

American Pit Bull Terrier?
American Stafforshire Terrier?
Staffordshire Bull Terrier?
Perro de Presa Canario?
Cane Corso?
Dogo Argentino?
Alano Espanol?
Japanese Tosa?
Dogue de Bordeaux?
Cordoba Fighting Dog?
Bull Terrier?
Antebellum Bulldog?
Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog?
American Bulldog?
Boxer?
Valley Bulldog?
Olde English Bulldogge?
Renascence Bulldogge?
Banter Bulldogge?

All of them? Some subset? What about mutts that include some or all of the bloodlines? How and who determines which dogs are unfit for society?

It's silly and reactionary.

[flvegan]

83. Apologist.

:rofl:

[PeaceNikki]

84. I own one to compensate for my small penis.

Oh, wait... I have no penis.

[Beaverhausen]

89. gorgeous

[PeaceNikki]

90. Thank you.

She is beautiful. And so very sweet. And she wouldn't harm a fly.

We have 2 cats (one was ~ 6 week-old we found in December) and she has been a DREAM with them. She's their best friend. And she doesn't even bark. At all. She doesn't know how. :rofl:

She's our 2nd. The 1st was equally as charming and loving with other dogs and cats.

When my ex brought home the 1st one as a pup, I was scared and believed the hype. I researched HEAVILY and spoke at length to my vet. I now know that there's NO such thing as a bad breed. There are some dogs that have difficultly being trained (of any breed) and there are bad owners, but the myth of a "bad breed" is a sick and twisted line of thinking.

[varelse]

98. Beautiful dog

I notice a kitten in one of the pics (and the hand of a small child) - how did the introduction process go between your dog and the new kitty?

[PeaceNikki]

99. Thank you. That pic was the introduction of the dog and the itty bitty kitty.

:D

It went very well. We introduced them all very slowly (over a couple weeks). Cats have a way of putting dogs in their place and establishing dominance RIGHT AWAY. She and the other pit I had are/were so fully aware that the pack leader is and always will be the human. It's an important point to establish young with all dogs, I think. The problem is a lot of people don't. And when you have a boutique dog like a Yorkie, you get and agressive nipper who barks a lot. With bigger dogs, the unpredictable behavior is more dangerous.

Cocoa (the doggie) is very content in letting the cats call the shots. When they want to play, she will play. But when they let her know they don't (with a quick hiss and swat), she immediately concedes.

When my other cat had an eye infection s few weeks ago and looked like this, the dog was FREAKING OUT! She was pacing and crying. I think she was thinking: "THAT THING IS ATTACKING THE CAT!! GET IT OFF!!"

[uppityperson]

103. Pretty dog, looks like a lab something cross.

[PeaceNikki]

82. Video: PIT BULL VICIOUSLY ATTACKS BABY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL1trl1FMUw&feature=related

[PeaceNikki]

85. *THIS* is the shit that happens to dogs when breeds are banned

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRJYVszJ7tE&watch_response

Evil and awful shit.

Sign petition here: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/BRING-BRUCE-HOME-X

[pleah]

95. Done!

I hope they get him back.

[PeaceNikki]

96. Thank you. Thats is one of the saddest things ever,

:cry:

[Jed Dilligan]

86. Yes, let's exterminate a broad range of canines based on phenotype.

That will solve the problem of dog attacks, and as an added benefit it will make the government that enacts it extremely popular with typical dog-hating Americans.

An added plus is that it sets a precedent for applications to those pesky human phenotypes that we know are out to kill our babies.

[Ronnie]

87. Over the Hedge

This story ran for 3+ weeks in, I think, March.

[PeaceNikki]

88. Don't be an American Idiot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGFy4wKdZY0&watch_response

[NeedleCast]

91. BAN MORE THINGS!!

Because until we ban everything, something could still hurt us.

This message brought to you by WPATS (Why Progressives Aren't Taken Seriously).

[flvegan]

92. No wait, I've got it. Let's just ban children.

No more kids, and then there's no more pitbulls attacking them.

I was going to suggest we just make it mandatory that they be toothless but then some misinformed pillock will come forward with statements about "their incredible bite strength" and "their crushing, lockable jaws" and complain.

:sarcasm:

Sad that I actually think I have to put that in these days.

[bigwillq]

97. No

It's how those dogs are raised that make them so violent. I know many, many pits that are so gentle and loving.

[uppityperson]

104. Find the pit bull... (can you pick out the pit bull?)

Or is any short haired big headed dog suspect?

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthebull/findpitbull_v3.html
<"Pit bull" is not a breed, it is a term used to describe three different breeds with similar characteristics./div>
http://www.mnp13.com/FindThePitBull/FindThePitBull.aspx

[Fox Mulder]

105. Absolutely not.

[AZBlue]

106. No, but dog fighting, mistreating animals and inbreeding should be.

[uppityperson]

107. Good post, and I agree. Ban bad ownership of dogs.

[AZBlue]

108. Exactly.

These dogs aren't inherently "bad" - we make them that way.

[uppityperson]

110. A friend's big headed "pit bull" disappeared and we really hope she got hit by a car.

The alternative makes us sick (someone grabbed her, is torturing her to make her fight). She was a well trained sweetie and I hope she died quickly.

[Orsino]

112. No...but selling unneutered dogs should be taxed.

And owners must be held responsible for the vicious behavior of their animals.

[Runcible Spoon]

115. IF YOU BAN PITBULLS WHAT KIND OF PITBULLS WILL BE BRED UNDERGROUND?!?!

the happy family dogs, or the inbred fighters? If you outlaw this dogs it will do NOTHING MORE THAN MAKE THEM EVEN MORE ATTRACTIVE FOR ILLEGAL FIGHTING AND AGGRESSION TRAINING. God sometimes people are SO FUCKING STUPID in their feigned outrage they don't sit to look at the bigger picture or the practical outcomes of their opinions. No, it's just easier to feel warm and fuzzy about "doing something" by grabbing the pitchforks and banning shit rather than addressing the root issues.

[baldguy]

117. You would ban Petey?

[hyphenate]

119. No.

But I think there needs to be more public awareness of issues concerning dogs in general. Most dogs--including pit bull terriers, are beautiful. They will love their masters even if they beat the shit out of them. They will love them even if they're neglected, tortured, used in dog fighting rings, or to guard drug-making operations. Even if they're buried alive.

It's the way they're raised that needs to be taken into account. Dogs will do almost anything their masters expect of them, including going after some hapless person who ventures into their domain.

If the dog is raised in a loving home with no one neglecting it, with proper training, with no torture or maiming, he/she will be a good dog. It's always the exceptions that get reported, not the multitudes of good dogs out there, only those who have been raised by assholes and criminals.

Any dog, NOT just pit bulls can be trained to attack and harm. It's all in how they are raised and cared for. Perhaps a better way could include a registry, but I don't think they should be banned.



Edited: clarity

[supernova]

120. WRONG QUESTION!

The question isn't "should pits (insert aggressive breed here) be banned?"


The question really is: Why should the fact you've got an asshole dog owner in the neighborhood only come to light in the scars, puncture wounds, and stitches in the body of the victim?

[noel711]

121. Don't ban the dogs, but ban certain dog owners...

Dogs, like people, are trainable, teachable,
and model those in authority over them.

Certain folks should not have these animals to train
and abuse.

Can we screen folks ahead of time before they do
too much damage to animals?

Well, we have drivers' licenses...

[aikoaiko]

123. Almost any dog can do serious damage or kill a child.

For example:
Pomeranian Kills 6-Week-Old Girl

September 21, 2001

LOS ANGELES (AP) - A small Pomeranian dog killed a 6-week-old baby while the infant's caretaker briefly left the child unattended to warm a bottle of milk, authorities said.

The relative, who was caring for the infant girl, found her head buried in the dog's mouth Saturday night, sheriff's Deputy Cruz Solis said. The girl died of head trauma at an area hospital, he said.

The baby's name was withheld because her parents were out of the country and had not been notified, Solis said.

The relative has not been charged. Animal control officers took the dog.

Pomeranians are a breed of miniature canines that have a foxlike face, pointy ears and long, fluffy hair. The deputy said Pomeranian attacks are rare.

``Obviously it doesn't take much to kill a 6-week old baby but it's not something that happens with that breed,'' Solis said.

Copyright 2000 Associated Press.

[LeftyMom]

125. A disproportionate number of serious, disfiguring attacks on children come from very small dogs.

There are two reasons generally cited:

1. Small dogs are more likely to be frightened or intimidated by children, triggering the fight or flight response.

2. Small dogs, when attacking children, tend to go for the neck and head.

I would add my observation that smaller dogs tend to be more excitable than large dogs, and that people are also less likely to see their aggression or fear behaviors as potentially dangerous and to take appropriate precautions.

[hellbound-liberal]

124. I don't care for the breed, would never consider owning one and definitely don't think they should

be banned. However, I think their owners should be held personally responsible and financially liable for whatever their dog does. If their dog mauls or kills a child or an adult, then it should be treated as though the owner had done the damage themselves and they should be charged accordingly. I agree with most of the posters here that pit bulls aren't inherently evil or vicious but bad owners can make them so.

[Strelnikov_]

126. Agree

The owners should be held liable.

[Ronnie]

127. "Dogs in War" --- Looks like my Pit Bull.

[Ronnie]

129. See.

Scooter:

[DS1]

128. Can I get an definitive answer of "Is there such thing as a Pit Bull?"

Every time this comes up, someone throws out this notion that there's no such thing as a Pit Bull, and it doesn't exist.

So, are there Pit Bulls or not, and if not, what sort of dog are we talking about?

[PeaceNikki]

130. There are several physically similar breeds that are often termed "pit bull"

in English speaking countries, including the American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, Perro de Presa Canario, Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Alano Espanol, Japanese Tosa, Dogue de Bordeaux, Cordoba Fighting Dog, Bull Terrier, Antebellum Bulldog, Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, American Bulldog, Boxer (dog), Valley Bulldog, Olde English Bulldogge, Renascence Bulldogge, and Banter Bulldogge. These breeds are usually not included by name in any Breed-Specific Legislation.

In CO, a BSL ordinance defined a pit bull as:

Any dog that is an American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, or any dog displaying a majority of physical traits of any one or more of the above breeds, or any dog exhibiting those distinguishing characteristics which substantially conform to the standards established by the American Kennel Club or United Kennel Club for any of the above breeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pit_bull

[uppityperson]

131. Officially "Pit bull" is not a breed but a description.

It depends on if you mean officially, like AKC/etc, or common usage. Many people consider any large headed, usually short haired dog, a "pitbull". Here is a link to some quick info and pictures of this type dog.

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthebull/findpitbull_v3.html
"Pit bull" is not a breed, it is a term used to describe three different breeds with similar characteristics. American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier.

(hmm, since they are all terriers, perhaps terriers should be scrutinized?)