Meet the Monsters: Men From Polygamy Cult Speak

[High Plains]

Men From Polygamy Sect Speak
Early Show Co-Anchor Maggie Rodriguez Lands Exclusive Interview With 3 From Texas Compound

Polygamist Men Have Their Say

Three fathers whose children were placed in Texas custody after a raid on a polygamist ranch speak about their beliefs and customs. Maggie Rodriguez reports. (CBS) Many of the men in the polygamist sect in Eldorado, Texas didn't know it is illegal to marry someone under 18, one of them tells Early Show co-anchor Maggie Rodriguez in an exclusive interview.

Rodriguez conducted the interview Sunday night with three men whose children were among more than 400 removed by authorities from the sect's compound in a raid earlier this month. It was the first time since the raid that any male members of the sect spoke with a member of the media.

In the wide-ranging interview, Rodriguez asked, “After all this, can you see why society looks upon you and says, ‘A girl who's younger than 18 shouldn't be married and having sex?’ Has this forced you to reconsider?”

One of the men, who identified himself as Rulon (none of the three offered a last name) responded, "Yes, many of us perhaps were not even aware of such a law, but yes, we have been made very aware in the last two weeks and we do reconsider -- yes.” Rulon says he has six children, ranging in age from a year to nine.

<snip> more at link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/earlyshow/main4029811.shtml

[dropkickpa]

1. Ignorance is no excuse

Sorry guys.

[High Plains]

5. The age of consent was raised two years ago in Texas.

I don't know if it was widely publicized.

Still, if one were about to marry a teenager, you would think you would check that out.

[uppityperson]

10. Depends on how limited your experience was, and choices were.

Not excusing the behavior, just thinking about being immersed in such a limited contact intense place, could make it difficult to know who or what to believe.

[LanternWaste]

21. Age of consent is seventeen in Texas.

Age of consent is seventeen in Texas.

[madmusic]

Well, then, no wonder they didn't know it was 18

You know, since it isn't. Does ABC News even know the age of majority in Texas?

Anyway, we don't know if these particular "monsters" broke the law or not.

[Warpy]

2. Man, I can smell the bullshit from here

Although the men were tightly controlled, they're the ones who were allowed some contact with the outside world.

They knew.

[High Plains]

3. A bit more from the interview:

A man who gave his name as Edson and told Rodriguez he has four children, from almost four-years-old to 11, took issue with the view that youngsters are abused in the compound. "I think they have a very false perception of the way we live because we're closed mouthed," Edson said. "They assume a lot of things that aren't there."

Asked by Rodriguez if he was saying older men don't marry adolescent girls in the compound, Edson replied, "I didn't say that at all, but I think that people have a false concept of what our religion is all about. To say that they're sexually abused and that people here are -- they haven't found anything to my knowledge that proves that. ... But I think that, overall, they look at us as if we're immoral people and, in our own makeup, that is the very most important part of our religion, is to be morally clean. I have a hard time standing here being a criminal, when I had no idea that I'm a criminal. I've always strived to be an upright man and my children and my family, everyone that I know, love me and I love them."

If an adolescent had sex with an older man, should that be considered abuse?

Ruloln answered, "The state of Texas has defined it as that. I would simply say, if you had a teenage girl that chose to go that way, could you force her to do otherwise? No, you could not. We are not a people of force. We are people of free agency and peace. We do not teach our children to have sexual conduct before they are of age. We do not teach them that; we teach them the contrary."

[High Plains]

9. It sounds like these guys are backtracking and perhaps seeking

some sort of accomodation with the state. Something along the lines of: "Okay, we won't marry them if they're underage."

That would remove the legal issue of child abuse, I suppose.

But the issue of polygamous marriages would remain, although I imagine they could get around that by not officially marrying them.

Should an agreement like that be enough to give them back their kids?

[Marrah_G]

18. They know the law enough to instruct the women to lie when they "bleed the beast"

[leftynyc]

26. Unless it's their first marriage

they're not marrying them at all. It's these spiritual marriages that are going to do in this cult. Ain't nothing but "g-d's stamp of approval" on pederasty.

[SoCalDem]

11. Sure they do.. but it's to "save themselves" for Uncle-Cousin-Grandpa

so he can get himself some 15 year old stuff.:puke:

can't have those girls giving it up for a 15 year old boyfriend, now could they?

[High Plains]

22. Uh, did you happen to look at the video of these guys?

There were two young fathers in their 20s, one guy who looked to be in his 40s.

[SoCalDem]

25. nepotism..

the sons of the "well-connected" elders probably get to "participate" at a younger age than the others..and a 40 yr old hooking up with a 15 yr old girl is still creepy as hell..

[Radical Activist]

34. Teens having sex with older men or women has been the human norm for thousands of years.

I wonder what happened to change that relatively recently in America.

[musette_sf]

37. "I wonder what happened to change that"

ya think maybe the Women's Movement? as in, women finally having a say as to what happens to them and their bodies?

[Radical Activist]

38. To a point..

Yet you're not being honest with yourself if you claim many boys and girls 16 and older don't want to have sex, including with older partners.

[undeterred]

40. You can only speak for your own gender

because you don't seem to know anything about mine.

[Radical Activist]

43. I didn't really think you would repsond

and you didn't. Its a controversial topic since child sex abuse is a serious problem and blurring the line is dangerous. I'm a human and I can speak for humans.

[musette_sf]

49. where did i say that teenagers don't want to have sex?

why are you changing the subject to "all teens want sex"? that is not at all what you started with in your OP.

i found an excellent article today about what is one of the core issues of this event: Balance of Power (or lack thereof):

http://www.northstarwriters.com/ct091.htm

[undeterred]

39. Like uh maybe, the womens movement?

The equality of women? Education? Something positive like that?

[Radical Activist]

41. Did the women's movement

suddenly make teenage boys and girls lose interest in sex?

[undeterred]

42. The womens movement taught girls and women

self respect and self esteem and self determination when it comes to their sexuality. And many laws regarding rape and partner abuse were changed during that time as well.

[horseshoecrab]

44. kick!

thank you undeterred!

:kick:

horseshoecrab

[Radical Activist]

45. human nature hasn't changed.

Those are all good things the women's movement did. Does a woman choosing or not choosing to have sex based on her self respect and self esteem really have anything to do with the age of the man she's saying yes or no to? The last time I checked no social movement made 16 year olds lose interest in sex.

[musette_sf]

51. once again

you change the topic to "all teens want sex". that is not the issue at hand. i think you are getting disingenuous now.

[uppityperson]

59. You seem to be confusing sexual desire with having the choice of whom to have sex with.

"Does a woman choosing or not choosing to have sex based on her self respect and self esteem really have anything to do with the age of the man she's saying yes or no to?"

Of course she may chose differently than having to go along with whomever has been "set up" for her.

"The last time I checked no social movement made 16 year olds lose interest in sex."

I am trying to be civil here, but you seem to be confusing having sexual desire with being able to chose whom to have sex with. Generalize sexual desire is a different thing from chosing whom to have sex with. Being able to chose your partner, rather than having 1 chosen for you, was a result of women's movement, especially the ability to plan when you would get pregnant. This freed up a lot of women to do what THEY wanted, not what someone else chose for them.

I may not be so polite next time.

[Radical Activist]

61. I don't see how

telling a young woman that its illegal and/or immoral to have sex with an older man is giving her more choices. Just the opposite, isn't it? What I am arguing is that some young women choose to be with older men, so why have we as a society chosen to take that choice away and classify it as immoral? Why do you think that is?

I mean in general terms, since the girls in this sect obviously did not have choice and maybe not some of the men either.

[uppityperson]

66. You are seriously confused as to why there as statutory rape laws.

Read this post and get back to me there: (my post #62) which for some reason I can't copy and paste the link to.

[musette_sf]

50. again, you changed your topic to

"all teens want sex". you know this is not what is being discussed, and you know it's not what's in your OP.

[undeterred]

53. the male mind runs on a single track

:shrug: think of it as a kind of testosterone related disability

[Radical Activist]

54. Post 34

That's exactly what my post was about. Its basic human nature for people to want to have sex with younger or older people and its a recent phenomenon that this is considered immoral beyond extremes. You argue the difference is that women now have the power and self respect to say no, but in order for that argument to be true you need to demonstrate that young women are actually making that choice to say no to older men. Is there any evidence of that? I've seen statistics that girls under 18 having sex with men over 18 is still the societal norm regardless of the law. How does the women's movement relate to that? I'm waiting for evidence that teen girls suddenly stopped wanting to have sex with older men once they were freed from the yoke of patriarchy, as you seem to be claiming. And if young women don't feel oppressed by the idea of sex with older men then why is stopping that behavior on the agenda of the women's movement?

Maybe you think I'm trying to defend these polygamists and that's not what my post was about. There's a lot going on with power differences in this group that having nothing to do with age.

The article you link says:
"That’s because the legitimate role of government at any level is to maintain the balance of power..."

I disagree with her view of the purpose of government. There are a lot of relationships where power is unequal. In fact I'd say a perfectly co-equal relationship is very rare, if not impossible. Is the government supposed to intervene in all of those cases? Is the government supposed to maintain balance in relationships where one person has more power because they have more money, or are less emotionally invested?
And yes, I agree that the example of 13 year olds used in the article is inexcusable in any case.

[uppityperson]

62. "Its basic human nature for people to want to have sex with younger or older people"

What the heck? Next you'll be saying that the reason there are statutory rape laws is to keep those hormonal ridden teens and preteens from having sex with older men, rather than the other way around. The role of those laws is to protect those who are most likely to be taken advantage of. And whether you like it or not, those needing protecting because of the power difference are the younger ones.

"I've seen statistics that girls under 18 having sex with men over 18 is still the societal norm regardless of the law." Prove that claim.

"I'm waiting for evidence that teen girls suddenly stopped wanting to have sex with older men once they were freed from the yoke of patriarchy," Many many of those teens who were given to older men never wanted to have sex with them. This is rather along the lines of "have you stopped beating your wife yet".

Of course there are people of all ages fucking people of all other ages by choice. But being able to CHOSE whom you want rather than having someone chosen FOR you freed up a lot of teens and young adults to NOT have to be matched up with older men. They got to chose whom they wanted, and most of the ones I know chose people around their own age.

[ismnotwasm]

70. It's patriarchy gone wild

This FDLS crap. And I mean patriarchy in a dictionary sense.

Of course teenagers have sex. Of course some young women have sex with older men. Or whatever age/gender game is going one.

But in those same teenage years-- you might even consider it basic human nature-- the name of the game is individuation. Challenging, questioning, choosing, making mistakes and learning from them. Some teenagers are lucky enough to have adults in their lives who's opinions they respect, and overt coercion isn't involved. When the ability or option to make choices is lessened or taken away, you end up with damaged human beings. As happened to women for centuries.

Unfortunately for young women, those who do make certain sexual choices are still called sluts. Young men are called sluts as well, but it doesn't have the moral punch. Damn near a compliment. Women are not sexual equal by any means. Their choices are always tainted by judgment. The madonna/whore paradigm is alive and well. Young women have to constantly battle this bullshit, make choices with crappy information.

Personally I advised my three daughters, in explicit language, to stick close to their own age group, since many "older" men don't have the emotional maturity to deal with a growing and expanding feminine power. The tendency is to be threatened by it, degrade it, or suppress it. That is a direct result of patriarchy as well.

They women's movement tried to empower women's sexuality, the right to say yes without shame, the right to demand orgasm, the right to have a fulfilling sexual encounters, the right to have fulfilling emotional relationships and to recognize what that means for them on an individual basis-- What it is and what it isn't. The women's movement pushed for reproductive rights, and if you think female teenagers prior to birth control were screwing like bunnies outside of marriage with the constant threat of pregnancy, I suggest you think again. And remember, Women were property, and in some cases considered not quite human.

Feminism also gave women the right to say NO to sexual encounters, the right to call rape rape, the right to object to harassment when the sole reason for harassment was gender, the courage to demand reproductive rights. I'm loving this new generation of feminists, these young women who are trying to reach sexual equality, even when I don't agree with method or opinion. They're moving forward. And I think they would say that the fact a man is "older" is not the point. They are making choices on an entirely new level.

[Radical Activist]

81. Good points.

I know it was dumb to bring the subject up considering how people react. But I think its interesting to ask why the marrying age, age of consent, and feelings about differing ages of couples has changed so much over the last 200 years (or even the last 40 since the women's movement) when the basics of human desire have not changed, and if anything, people are engaging in sex at a younger age than before.

You give some excellent reasons why its a bad idea for younger women/girls to date older men and there are many more I could ad.

No one asked but my take on a major reason for the change is that it seems like society is delaying the age of maturity generally. I don't know how someone gains the maturity to handle an adult relationship well unless its through either experience or the advice/guidance of their parents or other adult. I think someone matures as early as their life experience and education requires them to mature. So a society that believes someone isn't an adult until they're 21 or older is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by denying young people the opportunities and experiences needed to reach mental maturity. That's something much broader than just sex but I see it as part of a bigger trend. Right now over half of teens have sex by age 18 but I'm not sure how many of them are actually being taught how to have a mature emotional or sexual relationship because we view and legally define them as children.

And of course, all of that has nothing to do with this polygamous sect which is wrong on many levels for many reasons.

[uppityperson]

57. It taught them that they had more choices than simply complying.

CHOICE

[Radical Activist]

58. But not if

a 16 year old wants to have sex with a 20 year old. She doesn't have that choice. Why do you think that became a crime after being the norm for all of human history and it still is the norm today despite the laws?

[uppityperson]

65. Wrong, you keep getting it backwards.

She does. He doesn't.

"it still is the norm today" Prove that claim. Simply repeating isn't proof.

[Radical Activist]

67. No, legally she does not have that choice.

Its a crime. I'm asking why?

Young women not being forced into relationships they don't want to be in is a good thing, but that's a different question altogether. Please prove that the only time a younger woman wants to date an older man is when she's forced or pressured into it.

[uppityperson]

68. Wrong. You are "confused".

http://www.sexlaws.org/what_is_statutory_rape

In accordance with the FBI definition, statutory rape is characterized as non-forcible sexual intercourse with a person who is younger than the statutory age of consent. The actual ages for these laws vary greatly from state-to-state, as do the punishments for offenders.

(clip)
Statutory rape charges can be reported and filed by the victim, parents of the victim, professionals in mandatory reporting situations, and in most states they can be raised by the state. California has been a primary example of this filing charges against fathers of pregnant women who are, or were, minors at the time of conception and doing it at the protest of both the women and the parents of the involved parties.

The term "Age of Consent" is a term not found in many state statutes, but rather reflects an absence of prohibition. As used on this website, the "Age of Consent" reflects the age at which a person can no longer be a victim of statutory rape; or, the age at which a person may legally consent to most types of sexual activity with another person. This age varies from 14-18 in all states in the USA with over half the states adopting the age of “16” as the legal age of consent.

If you want to know state by state ages, do a search. It might be enlightening.

[Radical Activist]

71. Neither of your posts disproves my statement.

It is still a crime even if only one person involved is being punished for that crime. Legally the choice is being taken away for everyone even if the younger partner isn't punished.

[uppityperson]

72. Well good luck with that defense.

The crime is against the older person. If someone robs me, am I at fault?

Generally, when someone of or over the age of consent has sex with someone below the age of consent, it is considered statutory rape.

In other words, if you are over the age of consent and you have sex with a girl who is under the age of consent, even though she willingly has sex with you, you are guilty of statutory rape.

The younger one can chose to have sex. The older one is responsible for saying no and can be prosecuted for having sex.

"I've seen statistics that girls under 18 having sex with men over 18 is still the societal norm regardless of the law." Prove that claim.

[Radical Activist]

73. You're really missing my point entirely.

I understand how statutory rape laws work. Do you see how statutory rape laws in effect take the choice away from 16 year olds (depending on the state) to have sex with someone older because that older person does not have the legal right to do so?

Let's play out the scenario:
16 year old: "Let's have sex"
20 year old: "No. The government says we can't or I'll go to jail."
16 year old: "My choices have been taken away from me!"

See. No choice for either person.

[uppityperson]

75. OK, and murder laws take away choices also.

Let's play out the scenario:
person 1: "I want to kill you."
person 2: "No. The government says you can't or you'll go to jail."
person 1: "My choices have been taken away from me!"

I get that point. Do you have any inkling as to WHY statutory rape laws are in effect? Same as murder laws, to protect those who need protecting. The younger person is theoretically less able to make mature informed decisions and is more likely to be preyed upon.


Now for the ones you keep ducking:
"I've seen statistics that girls under 18 having sex with men over 18 is still the societal norm regardless of the law." Prove that claim.
"it still is the norm today" Prove that claim.

[uppityperson]

69. Here is a page with it put more simply.

http://loveandlearn.com/questions5/statrape/default.htm

Generally, when someone of or over the age of consent has sex with someone below the age of consent, it is considered statutory rape.

In other words, if you are over the age of consent and you have sex with a girl who is under the age of consent, even though she willingly has sex with you, you are guilty of statutory rape.

Even if someone under age of legal age of consent consents, the one over the age is guilty of statutory rape.

Statutory rape is where the government has passed laws (statutes) saying that in certain situations, even if both people consent to sex, it is still against the law.

It doesn't matter if:

* in some locations, anyone presses charges. If someone over the age of consent has sex with someone under the age of consent, even if no one but the arresting officer presses charges, the older person can go to jail.

* a girl or boy, who is under the age of consent, says "yes" or even initiates sex with a man or woman, who is over the age of consent; the law says it's statutory rape because that younger person has NO LEGAL RIGHT TO GIVE CONSENT.

* the younger person lies about his or her age before having sex. It is the older person's responsibility to make sure that their actions are legal.
(clip)

In most places it is believed that until a child reaches a certain age, the child is not really able to give informed consent to sex. In other words, they can't really understand what they are consenting to. Most of us would agree that an 8-year old girl could not give informed consent to sex. That is, even if the 8-year old girl agreed, it would still be wrong, because she wouldn't understand what she was agreeing to.

[dropkickpa]

56. What changed

was birth control and womens right to control thier bodies. Men often used to go through several wives, marrying the first when they were both relatively young. When she died from complications due to childbirth, disease, etc, he'd remarry, usually a younger woman, so there'd be someone to help take care of the kids/farm/etc and she's have more kids, and so on. I've done extensive work on my families genealogy and this pattern is repeated again and again not just in my family but in many or most families.

[Radical Activist]

74. The shift from a poor, agrarian economy

where women had few other options is a good point. It partly explains why getting married at 17 was the norm 200 years ago in America when most people were poor farmers.

[uppityperson]

77. Women's options were limited majorly by pregnancy.

What changed was birth control and womens right to control their bodies, not being a poor agrarian economy. Women's economics changed when they became more able to plan their pregnancies. They knew they could hold down a job and not have to take repeated breaks for pregnancies. They became more steadily employable in reality and in the minds of many employers.

The shift from a poor economy to one where women had more choices happened because of birth control and their ability to control their bodies. They became less dependent upon the men and had many more choice.

[Quantess]

78. I wonder that, too. TV?

Maybe it's television that tells American society that it's wrong for men in their 40s and 50s to be in arranged marriages with teenage girls who have just begun to menstruate.
/sarcasm]

Girls don't have much of any sex drive at 13 or 14 (this is true). And, their bodies are nowhere near fully mature when they first get their period.

BTW, I still think you are a faker. ;-)

[uppityperson]

79. oh no, seriously?

I gave the benefit of the doubt for the first bit, now? Indeed. (to last bit you posted)

[Radical Activist]

82. heh

Well there is a certain amount of "just for the sake of argument because its controversial" motivation behind what I wrote. But I'm serious in post 81. And I was writing in abstract general terms apart from the OP. Nothing excuses what the FLDS are doing.

It creeps me out that Johnny Depp, a man in his 40's, keeps winning teen choice awards, but it makes me question those who argue that young women with older men are always unwitting victims.

[uppityperson]

80. Where do you possibly get your opinions like that from?

Do you have any such proof? (bet you don't answer this call to prove one of your statements like this, same as you haven't any of the others) And Jean Auel's books don't count as proof.

[Marrah_G]

4. I want to hear them say how many kids they have, how many wives and if those kids are on welfare

These men are completely full of shit.

[Richard Steele]

6. I agree completely. nm

[hedgehog]

13. You're confusing the issue by introducing the possibility of welfare fraud.

I'm sure you don't think the situation would be acceptable if no welfare checks were involved.

[Marrah_G]

14. No- you miss my point

They won't answer those because they know it is illegal- yet somehow we are supposed to believe they didn't know that marry a 14 year old is illegal. This will come back to bite them in the ass.

(I should have been clearer)

[High Plains]

23. It is interesting to see how intense your desire is to demonize these folks.

Could they possibly be sincere in their beliefs? Even if misguided?

Much easier to just assume the worst. Feels good, don't it?

[Marrah_G]

27. Self-delete. Not worth it.

[Richard Steele]

33. One does not preclude the other. The worst demons are always those MOST sincere in their beliefs.

If they are "demons", it ain't us folks here at DU
who demonized them, so don't even play that.

[horseshoecrab]

47. Sincere beliefs.

I literally don't care to honor the "sincere" belief of anyone that it's ok to sexually abuse a child.

"Misguided" doesn't even begin to cover the situation.

Why do you wish to honor that belief?


horseshoecrab

[Dorian Gray]

52. Marah deleted her response...

but I'm happy to let my response ride:

It doesn't feel good to demonize this group. It feels awful to know that children are born into a situation in which they have absolutely no choice in whom they marry and when. They are babies giving birth to babies, and it's awful! It makes me sad every day to realize that this has been going on under our noses, and we have been unable to protect these children from statutory rape, forced plural marriage, abandonment, and abuse.

It sickens me that they've been harmed and further brainwashed into believe that their souls will be damned to hell if they CHOOSE to leave this environment.

It's disgusting that people would make excuses for this society, saying that it's a different cultural norm. Children are being abused.

[uppityperson]

63. one doesn't preclude the other. mrbush is very sincere but a demon.

See, that works, right? Many people are very sincere but also very nasty people.

If you're sincere you can't be a demon but must only be misguided? wtf?

[uppityperson]

7. Thank you for posting this. My heart goes out to those affected by Fundamentalist crap.

And by the extreme limits, brainwashing, imposed on people in cults.

[SoCalDem]

8. Finally.. I was wondering where all these brave macho-men were..

They sure shoved the Stepford roboto-"wives" out in front to handle the press..and they all hid out..

Probably frantic meeting after meeting to "get their stories straight"..

Bastards..

[Beaverhausen]

12. Does a "spiritual marriage" have an age of consent?

these guys are sick. And why won't anyone give their last name?

[ingac70]

15. Because....

all the last names are either Steed, Jeffs, Barlow, and Jessop.

Inbred fuckers.

[Marrah_G]

16. Nope it doesn't

There is very little difference between these men and the slavemasters of our past.

[Richard Steele]

60. Why would it, when it doesn't even have CONSENT? It's just another name for slavery. nm

[Matariki]

17. Polygamists aren't LEGALLY MARRIED. They should be asking about statutory rape. n/t

[Marrah_G]

20. And fraud- and underage workers- and children being made to work for free

There is ALOT of criminal activity going on but until know they were hiding the evidence behind large walls and forbidding anyone access.

[XemaSab]

55. Do they even legally marry the first wives?

Go down to the county, file papers, and all that? :shrug:

(Asking 'cause I don't know.)

[uppityperson]

64. They are getting there. One of the things DNA testing will help with.

[gratuitous]

19. I'd always heard that ignorance of the law was no excuse

Because, after all, if you could get off from any criminal accusation simply by saying, "I didn't know {fill in the name of your particular crime here; e.g. killing a person, dismembering the corpse, and eating the remains} was illegal," then everyone would apparently get one freebie for every crime on the books. Not a very social way to run a society.

But apparently, if you're white enough and male enough in Texas, it should work just fine as an excuse. Or at least Rulon, Edsel and Beelzebubba think so.

[Rex]

24. What the hell does 'free agency' mean when it comes to relationships

between men and women? Does that mean the girls had 'agents' who 'sold' them off to the most prospective man?

Questions about questions.

[XemaSab]

28. The way it works is that the Prophet tells them

who to marry and when.

The girls don't pick their husbands, and the men don't pick their wives. :shrug:

[Disturbed]

29. Who is this "Prophet"?

When will he be charged with similar crimes as was the other Prophet, Warren Jeffs?

[XemaSab]

30. They don't know who the new prophet is

:shrug:

[senaca]

32. It was interesting watching the FDLS house tour.

The only picture in every room I saw hanging up was a picture of Warren Jeffs. I guess I assumed he still was the prophet of this group.

[Marrah_G]

35. He is

[Beaverhausen]

36. I noticed that too

it's really a sad situation all the way around.

[Marrah_G]

31. They still believe Jeffs is their prophet

Many don't know or refuse to believe he is even in jail. They only know what jeff's cronies tell them.

[Canuckistanian]

46. You'd think that the arrest and conviction of their leader would give them a clue.

I'm not buying it.

[EFerrari]

76. I don't excuse these people but living as they do

being brought up as they were, most of them are impaired. Their frame of reference is so skewed, it bears little relation to what is actually socially acceptable here.

What a horrible mess.

[malexander777]

48. How can they not know

I mean come on....anyone could see that it is inappropriate. It seems to me like these people were completely oppressed and uneducated....that is the only way they could consider these actions to be acceptable. It is amazing what lack of education can do to people...just look at the situation in Africa where men have sex with virgins thinking it will cure them from AIDS. So sad.

[ColbertWatcher]

83. The MEN have their say?

The men have their say!?

When--for this cult--have the men not had their say!

This is yet another reason why the GOP-controlled media sucks.