Yoko Ono is suing Ben Stein

[pokerfan]

NEW YORK (Reuters) - John Lennon's widow, Yoko Ono, and his sons are suing the filmmakers of "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" for using the song "Imagine" in the documentary without permission. http://www.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUSN2320158220080423">(more)

[boobooday]

1. Excellent

How dare he?

[alstephenson]

2. Cool.

Ben Stein is a duffus.

[tularetom]

3. I thought maybe she was suing him for being the only living person

who is more of a dipshit than she is.;

But then I thought of bush, mc cain, clinton(s), etc and decided that couldn't be the reason anyway.

[Perry Logan]

35. You obviously know a lot about being a dipshit.

[maxsolomon]

48. don't know much about Yoko, do you?

she's far from a dipshit.

don't believe the hype.

[RandomKoolzip]

63. What a fucking ugly and disgusting thing to say.

You don't call the widow of the possibly the greatest rock musician to have ever lived a "dipshit," unless you want to be seen as a dipshit yourslef. Yoko is a fantastic multimedia artist in her own right as well - her work may not be to your taste, but "dipshit" was out of line.

[Freedom Train]

78. "Possibly the greatest rock musician to have ever lived"?

Um, more like "absolutely the most overrated rock musician to have ever lived". There was nothing special about the Beatles' music; get over yourself. And Yoko Ono is a nobody who has built her career on this overrated musician's rotten corpse.

[Zavulon]

80. I'll throw my hat in, responding to this brilliant post.

I absolutely agree with everything Freedom Train wrote here. Vehemently.

[Midlodemocrat]

82. Funny. I agree with everything RKZ has to say. Vehemently.

[Tyler Durden]

83. "I don't know if it's ART but I know what I LIKE": (call of the moronic dipshit).

What ASSHOLES.

I stood at Ono's work on the lawn of the Detroit Institute of Art and wept.



http://www.dia.org/exhibitions/yoko.asp
Yoko Ono’s Freight Train on DIA’s South Lawn
September 17, 2003-Spring 2004

Freight Train, 1999; Yoko Ono; boxcar with light and sound.
Installation on the DIA's southwest lawn at the corner of Woodward and Farnsworth.


The outdoor sculpture Freight Train, one of Yoko Ono's most ambitious works, is a German boxcar riddled with bullet holes and set on a short segment of railroad track. The myriad holes perforate the train's surface, stripping the blue paint down to the raw surface, and creating a thousand voids. From inside the locked boxcar a powerful light emanates, casting luminous rays through each bullet hole and through a hole in the top of the car. Mesmerizing music, created by the artist, emanates from the structure, evoking the hope of the spirits trapped within.

Ono's inspiration for the work, constructed in 1999, came from a specific instance of human brutality that occurred in 1987: a group of Mexican immigrants attempting to clandestinely enter the United States in a trailer truck died after the locked vehicle was abandoned in the desert. According to the artist, that incident became the guiding concept for "a work of atonement for the injustice and pain we’ve experienced in this century, expressing resistance, healing, and hope for the next century."

(snip)


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HMU/is_12_30/ai_111164183/pg_1

[Zavulon]

153. Sure, anyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation of art is an asshole, especially

since you wept.

Groan.

[Zavulon]

177. Yesterday afternoon I took my aunt around some Smithsonian museums and

heard someone talk just like you, which reminded me of your post. He basically said that anyone who claims "I don't know art well, I just know what I like" is "subhuman scum" who "deserves to be exterminated at the earliest opportunity."

That's just a bit ruder than your post, in which you claimed that similar words are the "call of the moronic dipshit," but not much.

I recalled upon hearing this that the words of this guy and the words you spat forth in your post are exactly the sort of elitist shit that turned me off of art from the very beginning. I'm sure this doesn't bother a morally superior being like you, but at least I now know that I'm not entitled to an opinion in the light of superior life forms like yourself.

Bask in your omnipresence, Great One. The rest of us who don't weep at Yoko Ono's "art" or the supposed brilliance of The Beatles will simply spend our free time wishing we were just like you. After all, if we don't know art well and just go with what we like, at least I know we're "moronic dipshits" now. If not for you, I wouldn't have known.

[Zavulon]

152. Good for you.

There's nothing wrong with differing opinions.

[ProfessorGAC]

88. Duh!

To both of you. Sine qua non. Go look it up.
The Professor

[Snarkturian Clone]

114. I agree as well.

Definitely the most overrated band ever. What's worse is that every Oldies station plays the Beatles all weekend, which is the only time I can listen to the radio!!! The John Lennon worship is ever worse. Apparantly being killed is the best way to be considered the best rocker ever. I puke whenever I see DUers give any celebutard any amount of importance.

"BuT SnArKy, My SuBuRbAn UpBrInGiNg SaYs I HAVE TO wOrShIp ThE bEaTLEs!!"

[baby_mouse]

182. Well, you don't have to WORSHIP, snarkus.

But you DO have to say: "yeah, they were big".

I likes me the Beeyattles. They are over-rated, yuss, but I like 'em.

[go west young man]

149. Man you guys are off base.

Lennon's music has had a huge influence on everything thats come since. "Mind Games", "#9 Dream", "Imagine" and numerous other great Beatles songs come to mind. Harrison's tasteful and amazing guitar lines. McCartney's "Hey Jude" and "Mull Of Kintyre". So much fantastic talent and hope for the world in their music. Yoko and McCartney have done much for young bands and students of music since John's death. Lennon is credited in the recording world with the famous Lennon "double tracking" technique. The Beatles in the studio laid the groundwork for many an experimental band to come. I notice your a Canadians fan well even Gordon Downie of Canada's "Tragically Hip" cites the Beatles as an influence. I recommend you read "Skywriting By Word Of Mouth" to get a grip on the real John Lennon. Not the one the media has sold us. John was a pretty brilliant artist and that's what attracted him to Yoko. Their story like many others is just about a boy and a girl. Why all the angst on you guys part I don't know. If you don't enjoy the music just change the channel. I gaurantee you when you change it though the people you end up listening to will have been influenced in some way by the Beatles.

[Zavulon]

151. So because I used to live in Canada I'm automatically a fan of the Tragically Hip?

YOU'RE off base, friend. I'm not a fan at all, and who members of that band cite as influences means nothing in regard to what I like and don't.

[go west young man]

154. Sorry for the assumption.

They are one of Canada's biggest acts so I figured it a good example of The Beatles influence.

[Buzz Clik]

167. You agree with this? Vehemently?

Um, more like "absolutely the most overrated rock musician to have ever lived". There was nothing special about the Beatles' music; get over yourself. And Yoko Ono is a nobody who has built her career on this overrated musician's rotten corpse.

The disgusting nature of the post is not about one's taste in music or art, it's about being a poor excuse for a human being. If you agree with it, then you assume the same mantle. Congrats.

[Zavulon]

176. Thanks, I accept your congrats.

I also hope you and your hypersensitive self find happiness one day.

[Bake]

91. Nothing special about the Beatles' music?

Yeah, I guess that's why it's still being played 40 years later ... nothing special.

I don't think Lennon was a great musician, per se, certainly not a great guitarist by any stretch. Helluva writer though.

Bake

[RandomKoolzip]

92. Oooh! Such an iconoclast! What a rebel!

Like MonkeyFunk says, just like Yoko-hate went out of style in '72, knee-jerk Beatles-hate went out of style in the early 80s, when the aftermath of punk finally made it acceptable to like ANYTHING again without guilt.

Get with the times. Oh, and get over YOURSELF: you're not the first to think you're being cool and contrary just because you don't like the Beatles (i.e. Johnny Rotten wants his shtick back). There's nothing cool about having intentionally bad taste.

[Freedom Train]

175. You completely miss the point in everything you write

I'm not trying to be cool and contrary. And not subscribing to the Beatles myth is not "having intentionally bad taste" or "knee-jerk Beatles-hate". It is indeed acceptable to like anything without guilt these days. And that also means that all music will be judged on its own merits, not on what "influence" it may at one time have had or how many boomers may have fond memories of their first kiss or prom dance to a Beatles soundtrack.

You see, the days of knee-jerk Beatles-love are over. And upon being presented with this fact, instead of admitting the music itself was not all it was cracked up to be, you boomers desperately try to cling to the myth you've perpetuated, simply because it's tied in with your life to such an extent that going against it would mean going against your own being. But that's understandable, to an extent. By all means go on living in your bubble, but at least refrain from trying to delude your kids into thinking the Beatles were all that, and accept the fact that there are younger people out there now who see things from a more objective perspective. I know it hurts, but you can do it.

Long after you are gone, history will judge the Beatles' music on its own merits - and believe me, history won't be as kind as you. A rhetorical question, if I may; are Mozart and Beethoven judged today on how influential their music was in their time, disregarding the quality of their actual works?

How will "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" or "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" hold up against Beethoven's Fifth one hundred years from now, I wonder? Or even, how will they hold up against Bob Dylan's work from the same time period? Bob Dylan will probably be one of the few artists who rose to prominence in the 1960s who will still be recognized and lauded. If The Beatles will even be remembered, it will be in footnote form as that band who only started recording anything of value at all after Dylan turned them onto pot.

[RandomKoolzip]

178. "You boomers?!" Dude. I'm 32.

You and your condescending attitude can go fuck yourselves.

[Freedom Train]

179. Meaning you've already been deluded.

The post is still directed at you, too.

Who's condescending? You can still listen to and, yes, even like The Beatles. I said they are the most overrated band ever, not the worst.

[RandomKoolzip]

180. Oh, thanks for giving me permission.

:eyes:

Your arrogance is both astounding and profoundly sad, in a certain way.

[Freedom Train]

181. Yawn... Condescension... Arrogance...

Accusations is apparently all you have; a retort to my post you have not. I'll read that as you admitting to it being true.

[JackORoses]

93. you fucked up, buddy

the Beatles changed the course of World History.

They have brought happiness to Billions.

How many lives have you changed?
Get over yourself!

[Freedom Train]

173. That was because they happened to come along at the right period in time

Take their music out of that time and let it try to stand on its own, and what have you got? Nothing special, I'd say. "I Wanna Hold Your Hand"? Please...

The reason they are overrated is exactly because the boomers are unable to separate the music from the times, and thus project their general feelings and memories from that time onto the music. And now they've deluded their kids into buying into the Beatles myth as well. Well, I'm not having it.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

97. Ill throw in with this

Lennon was a good, maybe great artist but not anywhere near the greatest rock musician to ever live. Give the beatles lifted so much music (directly and by copying style) from Black artist I dont have the awe and wonder of them that many do..

As to YO, were she not the wife of JL she would be a nothing, period.

[ProfessorGAC]

103. What Black Artist Did They Lift Penny Lane From?

How about "Day in the Life" or "Within you Without You."?

I wouldn't be quite so proud of being oblivious.
The Professor

[The Doctor.]

115. The Beatles plagiarized other artists? I didn't know that... got examples?

Meawhile, 'copying style' is how music evolves.

There are no artists that have been influenced by one style or another. Emulating the style of others and finding new ways to express through that style is what music is about. Without the process, Elvis would never have been either.

[jeff30997]

133. I got an example!

Lennon plagiarized Revolution 9.You know: Number 9,Number 9,Number 9 etc from the song

Love Potion Number Nine 9! :P

[The Doctor.]

137. I KNEW it!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

116. Stop tiptoeing around.

Your beef with the Beatles in general, and Lennon in particular, have NOTHING to do with artistic or aesthetic reasons. For other bashers in this subtrhread, this may be the case, but not for you.

It's like the sudden worries about "fair use." Come on, be direct.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

119. I have no beef with JL or the beatles

They were really good performers, great ones depending on your taste but they caught lightning in a bottle on the stylings of Black artist. I dont begrudge them one bit of their fame but in my opinion many people overrate them in terms of their actual contributions to music..

[Lerkfish]

126. in fairness, I would bet that those who disparage the Beatle's influence in music

are much, much younger than us old farts.
I remember when the beatles first came to the US, and my older sister had a poster of them up on the wall, back when 45's were the rage over the 331/3 rpms.

yes, they were that influential, and yes, they evolved as the times evolved and they were either leading the cutting edge of music while the rest followed, or they were right on the edge for much of their early career.

Sadly, some young whippersnappers remember the days of Wings and think that was all there was.

on the other hand, I'll agree that some radio stations OVERplay their popularity. but hey, they do that with 50cent, too.

[NoGOPZone]

125. Never thought I'd see Lennon confused with Jimmy Page.

Another thing I was wrong about.

[The Doctor.]

100. "There was nothing special about The Beatles' music" ?!?!? Right... they were just a cover band.

:eyes:

Such idiocy I have not seen in a while. They were hugely innovative and changed the face of the music scene as much as Elvis did.

[clayton72]

107. So much strife, let's find common ground...

I like pie.

[clayton72]

108. So much strife, let's find common ground...

I like pie.

[H2O Man]

109. Fish & finger pie

Penny Lane

[The Doctor.]

113. In Summer...

Meanwhile back...

[aka-chmeee]

101. Sure thing..

I sure that over "there", Toby Keith gets all the swoons.

[Soylent Brice]

118. rofl

outstanding.

[svpadgham]

138. Toby Keith...

Now that's a douche. That album title "Shockin' Ya'll" was such a GENIUS play on words right after we invaded Iraq. He might as well release one titled "Abortion Clinic Shooting."

[ColbertWatcher]

144. He;s a good boy...

...with a purty mouf.

[Soylent Brice]

117. the influence of the Beatles music

has been felt far and wide, not just through the rock genre, but by all of those who enjoy music and by those who longed for a change.

The Beatles were a cornerstone of a cultural revolution. It didn't end there. They made many breakthroughs, not just with the way we think, but with the way we made music:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles'_influence_on_music_recording

[DutchLiberal]

136. If The Beatles hadn't totally changed pop music's history, you would have a point...

...now you're just displaying your ignorance to us. :)

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freedom Train]

174. Haha, who's hate-filled, you say?

Pointing out that the Beatles were not in any way near everything they have been made out to be is not hate-filled. YOUR post however, now that's another matter. But I'll let it slide this time.

[baby_mouse]

183. I don't entirely disagree with you, BUT...

...they were instrumental in popularising a lot of the experimental techniques already in existence underground. Lots of production, lots of wibbly lyrics, songs about issues and ideas rather than just sentimentality and romance (although they did that too, a'course). They did *change* things, and for the better, by being popular, yes, but by doing what they wanted to do anyway, which wasn't common at the time.

[pegleg]

104. Very Much Yes

[knight_of_the_star]

124. If by brilliant you mean absurd

Yoko Ono would be a nobody living in a cheap flat somewhere if she hadn't wormed her way into John Lennon's life, the ONLY reason we know her name is because of the Beatles. She is an overrated hack.

[ronnykmarshall]

Wormed her way in to his life?

I think he fell in love with her.

This Yoko the evil shit is so tired.

Would she have been famous w/o Lennon? No.

But she sure as hell wasn't living on the streets when she met him.

The LOVED each other. In some ways Yoko probably saved Lennon from ending up dead from drinking and partying.

[knight_of_the_star]

164. She was an over-controlling hack

Read up on May Pang sometime, the woman Lennon was hooked up with by Yoko who he almost divorced her over until she tricked him from going with her by claiming she knew of some psychobabble cure to smoking. While he was with her he was actually starting to compose new (and good) music again because she wasn't suffocating him and was ready to divorce Yoko and move in with May.

[RandomKoolzip]

155. Wow. Funny how the criticism leveled at Yoko parallels the sexism leveled at HRC.

She was an established and successful avant-garde multimedia artist in her own right before she met John Lennon, a contemporary of John Cage, Merce Cunningham, etc. Her "cut-Up Piece," to name just one example, has been aped and imitated by performance artists who followed her, and many of her 60's visual ideas concerning space (I.e. an austere and minimalist relationship between emptiness and event during a time when exploding colorful noise was a norm) proved to be quite influential. But of course none of that matters, because she's a woman. :eyes:

BTW, a "hack" is commonly defined as an artisan whose output is overly common, cliched, or ordinary. You may think it's atonal, dissonant, jarring, or "stupid," but I think you'd have to agree that Yoko Ono's music is none of the things in the former list.

[knight_of_the_star]

165. She's a hack

Because her "art" exists solely in the spin that makes it so. Great art stands on its own and needs only a glance to be appreciated for what it is, the crap people like Yoko churn out needs pages of bullshit to be justified as art, nevermind that it is demeaning to people who REALLY pour themselves into their art for the things she puts out with far less effort or work.

And no, my issue with her is NOT sexism or that she is a woman, it is because she leeched John's life away from him until the day he died, look up May Pang sometime for an example of how he nearly left her and the circumstances on which she pulled him back.

[MonkeyFunk]

171. That's ridiculous

"Great art stands on its own and needs only a glance to be appreciated for what it is"


People "glanced" at Van Gogh's art throughout his whole career and thought it was shit.

"Nude Descending a Staircase" was mocked and derided. "The Rites of Spring" caused a near-riot. The notion that great art is immediately recognizable at a glance is one of the dumbest things I've seen thing in this thread, and there's some stiff competition.

[MonkeyFunk]

84. Yeah

what a dipshit - a quiet woman who's devoted her life to peace. A classy lady who's had more crap thrown at her than anyone alive, and has never responded in kind.

Mindlessly hating Yoko stopped being cool in '72. Get with the times.

[nolabels]

89. Never hated her, never really spent much time even thinking about her and............

everything has been explained about so many things. Yet there is that one particular thing that no one seems to want to touch and that is who ever told Yoko she could sing?


You tell me that you've got everything you want
And your bird can sing
But you don't get me, you don't get me

You say you've seen seven wonders and your bird is green
But you can't see me, you can't see me

When your prized possessions start to wear you down
Look in my direction, i'll be round, i'll be round

When your bird is broken will it bring you down
You may be awoken, i'll be round, i'll be round

You tell me that you've heard every sound there is
And your bird can swim
But you can't hear me, you can't hear me
(snip)
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beatles/and+your+bird+can+sing_10026364.html

[delt664]

106. I seem to remember

Yoko Ono suing some musician gal whose real last name was Lennon over performing using the name Lennon. I think Yoko lost / gave up the suit.....wish i could find that article.

ANYWAY, is that a good example of how classy she is?

Personally I dont care about the Beatles. I think the Beatles are okay, but probably not as good as most seem to think.

When it comes to Yoko, the only time I ever seem to hear anything about her is when she is suing someone. Hmmm maybe shes a scientologist.

But people seem to be missing the more interesting topic here: The pile of crap movie whose sole purpose is to try lock an inherently idiotic idea into social consciousness - Intelligent Design.

Can we please stop arguing over music (! wtf on a political site?)

[MonkeyFunk]

135. No, she didn't sue

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20080214/163305.shtml


And it seems like a very reasonable trademark issue to me. It in no way indicates that Ono is "classless".

[delt664]

168. Thanks! Believe it or not, I like being proven wrong.

Yoko just got +1 in my books. Too bad I hate her music.

Oh and for the record, I am all for suing anyone related to this travesty called Expelled.

[ronnykmarshall]

132. I'm listening to Waking On Thin Ice right now just to spite 'em!

G'on Yoko!

[Kolesar]

98. Yoko Ono is a bona fide *Peace Activist*

You know, like what we on the Democratic Underground strive to be.

(I mean, even the Bare Naked Ladies loved her)

[nebula]

4. Stupid Stein

sue that idiot and his crap film.

[Warpy]

5. Great! and she'll WIN

Stein's disinformation flick seems to have stolen a lot of material including footage from films shown on PBS; in addition, they lied to people about their subject matter when they interviewed them, then twisted the interviews. I'm delighted to say this dreck has one of the lowest ratings I've ever seen at http://www.rottentomatoes.com Some of the reviews are pretty funny, too.

[nashville_brook]

17. heh -- there's other stolen footage! omg -- what an amateur thing to do.

'cause you know he didn't do this out of some "punk rock" attitude. he just STOLE the material. wow.

[Howardx]

23. everything they claimed micheal moore did

interesting....

[pokerfan]

25. More theft?

Only in this case, as a pre-emptive strike, Expelled/Stein is suing Harvard/SVIVO:
http://www.floridabaptistwitness.com/8705.article

Compare the videos for yourself:

The Harvard/XVIVO version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id2rZS59xSE

The Ben Stein version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYAQmZu2FyY

(The Harvard video has a lengthy intro that is worth watching but if you just want to see the animation, skiop to the second half.)

[NoGOPZone]

27. Maybe this will lead to a new game show for him

Sue the Shit out of Ben Stein

[Sabriel]

70. Or "Litigate for Ben Stein's Money" n/t

[JackRiddler]

50. "stealing" footage may be within fair use

insofar as it is properly credited and used to make the film's argument. (Should I say, "argument"?) If that's enforced, 9/10 of what people are producing on the Internet will have to be scrubbed.

He can't get around stealing the song, however.

[ColbertWatcher]

65. Might be.

In addition to the reason you mentioned (giving credit) it also depends on how much of the footage is used.

He cannot make an argument against Inconvenient Truth by using the entire film, even if he does play the credit at the end.

[JackRiddler]

71. Yes and no.

Fair use until now has always been determined on an individual basis in court. A plaintiff has to bring a case. The usual criteria are 1) whether the use damages sales of the original; 2) whether the use is commercial, especially if it's making sales that could be made by the original producer instead; 3) to what degree it's really a new work, genuine repurposing or criticism as protected speech, as opposed to plagiarism.

I haven't seen the anti-"Inconvenient" film, nor does it look very interesting. But if one isn't preventing sales of Gore's film, extensive quotation from it for the purpose of arguing against it may be fair use (i.e., with commentary, not just running the whole film!). It would be up to the producers to sue and the judge to decide. It would certainly qualify as fair use with text, but video is a fuzzier matter. On the whole, I'm for liberal interpretations of these issues, otherwise it will be used generally to quell inconvenient speech (and prevent a lot of genuinely creative parodies and borrowings).

[orleans]

75. yeah, but here's the thing

from the article it also says:
"The producers cited the fair use doctrine, which allows the use of copyrighted materials for the purposes of commentary and criticism."

and so...yoko and boys might not get their wish.

i think it's horrible that anything connected with lennon is being used in this "docu"propaganda-piece of shit.

but...fair use doctrine...

[svpadgham]

139. Wouldn't it be commentary or critcism

of the piece being used? I'm not really well schooled on fair use, but it seems that if it were a movie based on being a commentary of Lennon's music, then Y.O. may not have a leg to stand on. I'm pretty sure the movie is about something entirely different, and they are looking to turn a buck so I think they needed permission to use it. I also hate that they used George Thorogood's "Bad to the Bone" whether they had permission of not. I don't think "Bad MO-FO" when I see Ben Stein.

[Joanne98]

6. YAY!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. Sue the SHIT out of his...

everlovin' ass, Yoko! :applause:

[depakid]

8. Two people who richly deserve each other!

[shain from kane]

9. She wants Ben Stein's Money.

"Win Ben Stein's Money was an American television game show that ran from July 28, 1997, to May 8, 2003, on the Comedy Central cable network. It featured three contestants who competed in a general knowledge quiz contest to win the grand prize of $5,000 from the show's host, Ben Stein. During some segments of the show, Stein would actually participate as a "common contestant" in order to defend his money from being taken by his competitors. The show, which won six Daytime Emmy awards, was notable for its combination of serious quiz questions with a playful, irreverent tone and often risqué humor."

----------------From Wikipedia

[annabanana]

11. HA!. . . laugh of the day!

Thank you!

[hatrack]

13. Well, I hope she isn't counting on the proceeds of the movie . . .

I read that it took in a whole million dollars (insert Dr. Evil voice) and more in its big opening weekend.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[nashville_brook]

10. everyone in media is well aware of the cost of liscensing music -- i don't understand how Stein

could overlook that. or how his lawyers could overlook it. that's like driving off a lot with a car you haven't paid for.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. Damn well said

It is theft pure and simple.

[nachoproblem]

102. It could be calculated

to give them an opportunity to cry "victim" over being sued. Ben Stein has obviously latched onto the culture and language of victimhood in the manner of portraying creationism in his bullshit movie. The creation/anti-Darwin/intelligent-design/whatever argument cannot be advanced in terms of science because it does an end-run around the criteria of the scientific method that establish evolution as a theory. Therefore he can only advance the argument in terms of "status quo" and "victimhood."

IMO, anybody who *wants* to be "cool" and "punk rock" for its own sake never will be. (Thus fell Trey Parker and Matt Stone.)

Win Ben Stein's Money was a really good show. Ben Stein never struck me as somebody who would be a dipshit about science. Live and Learn. Goddammit. :(

[samdogmom]

12. Way to go, Yoko! Ben Stein has no right to steal John's property!

What is it with these right wing wackos? They think they can just take things without permission? Wow!

[redwitch]

20. "Imagine no possessions..."

:-)

[samdogmom]

38. "It isn't hard to do...."

However, our society still recognizes possessions--so Ben Stein is busted! Thanks, Redwitch!

[redwitch]

39. I hope she is hugely successful.

He sure as hell knew he was stealing.

[LSparkle]

14. That's great! Yoko, go GET BEN STEIN'S MONEY!

[malaise]

15. Hahahahahahaha

Next time Stein will use his 'intelligence'.

[IndyOp]

16. But she split up the Beatles! We hate Yoko!

:sarcasm:

Go-o-o-o-o Yoko! :applause:

[AlCzervik]

18. that was either an intentional oversight or Ben Stein is the idiot i always figured he was.

[pokerfan]

31. It's circular logic

They need the controversy to build up the box office to pay off all the lawsuits that they needed to create controversy in the first place!

This may sound idiotic to normal people but to the lawyers who are paid by the hour it makes perfect sense.

Defamation suits from Pepperdine, Baylor, Dawkins and Meyers may be next.

It's like chumming for sharks.

[FatDave]

46. Intelligent Design proponents using circular logic??!??!!

Surely you jest!

:rofl:

[Greyskye]

47. It seems to work something like this:

[pokerfan]

52. They actually prefer the term 'cdesign proponentsists.'

After all, it was found in a draft of one of their texts.

http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/11/missing_link_cd.html

[femrap]

19. I was hoping she would!

Break his damn bank!

[Monk06]

21. When Yoko Ono lawyers up the game is over. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

22. I knew the song writer for "Chances Are" (Johnny Mathis).

He sued the movie studio b/c the song was used w/o his permission in Close Encounters.

He won.

[Mad_Dem_X]

24. Go Yoko!

John would be proud. :hippie:

[NoGOPZone]

26. Ben must have skipped the intellectual property course when he was in law school

What a putz.

[ColbertWatcher]

28. HAHAHAHA! Good for her! n/t

[slowry]

29. Anyone know the context in which they used "Imagine", anyway?

If I had to guess, it would be the line about "no religion", with images of Nazis marching, or some bullshit...

[pokerfan]

42. I haven't seen the film

nor do I intend to (not one dime to those arse holes).

Apparently it consists of twenty-five seconds of listening to 'Imagine' (which Stein et al is claiming as fair use) while the camera pans longingly (Ken Burns style) over pictures of Nazi death camps.

You see, the film's secondary premise is that Darwinism somehow led to godlessness which somehow led to the Holocaust. Never mind the 2,000 years of European anti-semitism.

Has Ben Stein no shame?

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. What a freakin idiot

He didn't realize he needed to have permission to use the song? :rofl:

[nebula]

33. Stein knows he would never get the permission

to use John's work in such a piece of garbage. Not in a million years.

So he decided to steal it!

[endarkenment]

32. Good. Sue the crap out of him.

[Greyskye]

34. Paging Ben Stein

Your shipment of Fail is here.

[pokerfan]

36. Oh noez!

[roughsatori]

37. I just purchased an Ono limited multiple from Japan. I've always preferred her over John.

Glad to read this. Hey, the sculpture was tiny and pretty inexpensive. A treat for this art lover.

[stimbox]

51. This is a new Yoko instruction piece.

Hire lawyer.

Sue Ben Stein.

[roughsatori]

73. My favorite score of hers was just one Quarter note on a scale

with the instruction "scream this note until you die." When I was 15 I wrote her a "fan" letter. She is the only person I ever wrote one to.

The monograph on her ouever "YES" is a favorite book of mine, it ranks with Wuthering Heights, Dostoevski's The Idiot, and Genet's The Thief's Journal, and the Douay-Rheims Bible as my most loved books.

But YOUR instruction made me laugh in a very good way.

[stimbox]

90. The simplicity of her art is genius. I love her music too.

Especially her more experimental stuff.

Did you get a response to the fan letter?

[roughsatori]

95. I have all her music on CD

During my NYC post-modern-punk days, circa 1978 a favorite memory is listening to the album "FLY" with another kindred spirit who loved her work. Before that it was me in my room with Yoko.

As for her writing back. Well, I was 15 at the VERY MOST when I wrote the letter. I sent it to the record company. With the scrawled notation: "This letter is for Yoko Ono, I have no desire to write John Lennon." HAHAAAA, I was a very sick child. Years later a person offered to introduce me to Yoko...but I said "no." I am a hermit.


Have you heard the newer indie bands that she gave her masters to for re-mix: "Yes, I'm a Witch." I would recommend you, at least, listen to the samples of it on Amazon.


Approximately Infinite Universe is my favorite album of hers. As I boy-child in the un-promised land it kept me alive.


here are the lyrics to the title song:

Approximately Infinite Universe by Yoko Ono.


In this approximately infinite universe,
I know a girl whos in constant hell.
No love or pill could keep her cool,
Cause there's a thousand holes in her heart.

And the wind of the past blows through her heart,
Reminding her of the people she killed.
Wind of now blows off her cool,
Telling her there's something she's missed.

You know the town of sapporo, she says,
Where the men talk rough and never sing.
Two bottles of loneliness
Patching the holes in her dream.

In this approximately infinite universe,
I know a girl whos raising constant hell.
No love or bottle could fix her good,
Cause there's a thousand holes in her head.

And the wind of the future blows through her head,
Saying there's no point of return.
The wind of the universe blows off her soul,
Telling her there's nowhere to go.

I wanna sleep, wanna sleep, she says,
And take her fix to bed.
Two bottles of loneliness
Patching the holes in her dream.

[Richard Steele]

40. Typical RWer- a liar and a thief. You go, Yoko! K&R

[pokerfan]

44. It does seem a rather odd way to promote a religion

who has as two of its fundamental laws, 'thou shall not steal' and 'thou shall not bear false witness.'

[liberal N proud]

41. But he is a republicon

They think they are exempt from laws

[nebula]

58. He needs to read the part in the Bible

where it says 'thou shall not steal.'

[Dukkha]

45. good nail that stupid SOB!

[suffragette]

49. Sounds like the producers tried to do a walkaround

on Yoko and she's slamming the door in their faces.
Good for her.

[jimmyflint]

54. Awesome

Gooooooooo Yokoooo.


Kick their butts good.

[suffragette]

76. Yoko's talented and strong

Stein and company just messed with the wrong woman.

Welcome to DU , Awesome :hi:

[H2O Man]

53. Great.

Yoko is a tough lady. I think very highly of her.

[liberal1973]

55. lol...What a

idiot!

Yep like nobody would notice. Boy! you can't take the tricky dick out of the republican.

What's with all the right wingers stealing liberal songs and using them at far right events. This year alone had the right wing candidates attempting to use liberal songs at their rallies.

[Pastiche423]

56. I LOVE the title of this thread

lol

I also love that both of John's sons are suing as well.

Good on you, Yoko!

[Echo In Light]

57. Go Yoko! K&R

[Omaha Steve]

59. I made a public apology to Yoko on DU and in the local paper

I incorrectly blamed Yoko for the breakup for years. I think it was about a year ago. It was about the time she donated the rights of a new album of John's songs to help the people of Darfur.

[progressoid]

60. Tee hee hee!

Her lawyers will bleed that thing dry. :)

[Kitty Herder]

61. Good for Yoko. nt

[NoPasaran]

62. This reminds me of the war between Iran and Iraq

I really don't care who wins. I just hope it's expensive for both sides.

[bleever]

64. Get 'em, Yoko.

:thumbsup:

[walldude]

66. Someone told me that scientists are compared to Nazi's in the movie

I saw it in the top 10 this week, it was the first I ever heard of it. Apparently they portray school science teachers as "nazi's" because they don't teach Intelligent Design. Wow, I bet they would if there were a single shred of scientific evidence to back up the ID claim...

[pokerfan]

69. It's worse than that

Ben Stein claims that belief in evolutionism directly led to the Holocaust.

[slay]

67. Awesome. Stein is a scumbag..

He seemed like a cool guy in Ferris Buller but wow, what an ASS when it comes to politics.

[Rex]

68. Hahahahahaha no wait

Bawhahahahahahahaha! :rofl:

Win Ben Steins Pride! :rofl:

[avenger64]

72. Imagine there's no objectivity

and you got Ben Stein. I hope someday you won't join him, because I don't want that world to be as one!

[samsingh]

74. good

[snot]

77. Glad someone is! She roks!

And in case anyone didn't realize, she's a brilliant artist in her own right. John had taste.

[mnhtnbb]

79. Good for her! Stein is a scumbag.

[and-justice-for-all]

81. Ha!! It flopped and it is getting sued!! I love it...nt

[mainegreen]

85. Oh snap. n/t

[Froward69]

86. YAY!!!

[pleah]

87. Go get'em!

Love Yoko Ono.

[LeftHander]

94. Not fair use when it makes profit.

Now a bazillion people will go buy that trash to see how "Imagine" is used in a RW propaganda piece on how people who are idiots are not listened to by smart people in academic circles.

Imagine....that.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

96. Before you celebrate this

Realize they are trying to cut the power of fair use which will only strengthen the grip of multi billion dollar corporation on intellectual material..

http://www.current.org/doc/doc0521fairuse.shtml

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

110. Funny how you never manifested yourself on the subject of information freedom / copyright / fair use

before this.

Funny, that.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

121. I have not seen any as such

But hey go ahead make an assumption that because you have not seen me on such a thread I dont despise crap like the DCMA and other major grabs by corporate media to strip away the balance which was intended to 'promote the arts' that copyright is based on..

Hate the DCMA, hate most Eulas, etc...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. Ahem. It's DMCA, not DCMA. -nt

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

141. Typo...

Im on a laptop today, not really used to that... Still the point stands that I am for the strict protection of fair use and I am disgusted by people trying to bite into that..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

142. Who do you think you're fooling?

This isn't even a freakin' fair use issue to begin with. Nicking a published song without royalty payments or permission for a wide-release film isn't even in the city with the neighborhood of the ballpark of fair use.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

143. This is, albeit, a flawed documentary..

But fair use *can* apply here depending on how the song was used:

"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections § 106 and § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

--

Fair Use and Professional Communities

Courts when deciding fair use cases, in addition to looking at context, amount and value of the use, also look to the standards and practices of the professional communities where the case comes from.

Documentary filmmakers organized and created the Documentary Filmmakers' Statement of Best Practices in Fair Use <2>, which has had a dramatic effect on fair use practice in documentary film. Since the release of the Statement in 2005, PBS, ITVS and IFC use it. Furthermore, four out of seven of the national errors and omissions insurers now issue fair use coverage routinely. Several documentary films have also used it, allowing both theatrical and television releases. Other professional communities are beginning to plan their own best practices standards in fair use as well.

--

Statement Authors

* Association of Independent Video and Filmmakers
* Independent Feature Project
* International Documentary Association
* National Alliance for Media Arts and Culture
* Women in Film & Video (Washington, D.C., chapter)

Statement Endorsers

* Arts Engine
* Bay Area Video Coalition
* CINE
* Doculink
* Electronic Arts Intermix
* Full Frame Festival
* Independent Television Service
* Joost
* Kartemquin Films
* National Video Resources
* P.O.V./American Documentary
* University Film and Video Association
* Video Association of Dallas
* Women Make Movies
* Video Association of Dallas

--

If this is or is not fair use I dont know, I have not seen the film but its pretty clear that documentaries get a good deal of latitude in using copyrighted works..

All I said before you looked into my soul was lets be careful how fast we celebrate the possible eroding of fair use because we disagree with the content.. and the *best* you have to attack me with is 'Ive never seen you on other IP threads' therefore I *must* not care about it (how many threads on DU are *really* about IP issues? I have honestly ever seen on..

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

148. Fails on all 4 counts.

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

So commercial it isn't even funny.

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

Well, duh. It's a song that's still being sold.

3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

Didn't see the movie so I don't know how many of the song is there. But I do know very small excerpts have been considered not fair use by the courts.

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

He's associating the song with the Nazis. Perhaps it's not only copyright violation, but slander (Libel? Defamation?) also.

Admit it: you're only pissed because your pals, the fundie creationists, are the ones being burned here. Yes, I remember where you come from.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

150. This is a documentary

1) films like fahrenheit 911 made a ton of money, I would hardly put them in the same catagory as the latest blockbuster.

2) Its a copyrighted work aimed at a different audiance, unless the movie release a soundtrack its in a noin competing sphere

3) Please site where small segments in documentaries have been ruled not fair use.


4) Sorry your bias aside the use of the song in this movie is not going to hurt the value of the son..

--

I am not pissed about anything, I am worried that corporations (if you bothered to read the article youll see media labels are attached) are chipping away at fair use and this trojan horse of burning someone you hate is only handing them a powerful weapon.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

156. Whatever. Declare victory if you want. (I sure was prophetic when I chose my sig line.)

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

159. Holy horse crap

Where *anywhere* is this about evolution? The only person changing their view (in regards to fair use and ip law) based on the films content is *YOU*..

BTW does this mean you cant site where 10 second clips of copyrighted material in documentaries are deemed *not* fair use?

[asthmaticeog]

157. F911 PAID for the music it used.

In fact, Moore intended to use a song by the Who in that film but replaced it with a Neil Young song when the Who DIDN'T GRANT PERMISSION. So that argument fails.

It doesn't matter what audience it's aimed at, it's illegal to use it without royalty except as specified in the fair use provisions opf copyright law, which test this usage fails.

Look, I'm a BIG proponent of fair use, both as a musician who's used samples, tape loops and other concret elements in his work and as a designer who appropriates images parodically for concert posters. But being in favor of fair use and being disingenuous about when those provisions apply (like you are doing) are two different things.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

160. Before you jump all over me

I said it *could* be fair use? have you seen the film? It just as easily could not be fair use and be it MM and FH911 or BS and this film I would rather err on the side that allows documentary film makers to *not* have beg big media corporations for permission to use content, wont you agree?

[asthmaticeog]

163. You don't seem to understand how fair use works.

It's never a defense against a lawsuit taking place, and never will be unless the way the provisions are written are changed. It's only a defense once you've actually been sued. It can be used in a Hail Mary to counter a C&D in *hopes* of avoiding a suit, but citing fair use won't prevent lawsuits from happening, that was never how those provisions were designed.

Secondly, documentary filmmakers don't have to "beg" to use others' intellectual property, they have to pay. Like anyone else.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

161. BTW Here is how the song is used:

"If you really listen to the lyrics of 'Imagine' then you realize that it represents everything that the Neo-Darwinists want. 'Imagine there's no Heaven … No hell below us … Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too…' That's exactly what the Darwinist establishment wants to do: get rid of religion," said Walt Ruloff, CEO of Premise Media. "And that's what we point out when we play less than 15 seconds of the song and show some of the lyrics on screen."

"Unbiased viewers of the film will see that the 'Imagine' clip was used as part of a social commentary in the exercise of free speech. The brief clip – consisting of a mere 10 words – was used to contrast the messages in the documentary and was not used as an endorsement of 'Expelled,'" the company said.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=62489


--

It seems to me 15 seconds of a song talking about ideas and concepts that are germane to the documentaries point should fall under fair use. I am relatively sure I can find YouTube clips with more of the song than this...

The content of the film itself is not the point this is a blatent attack on fair use for political purposes by some and for corperate profit purposes by others!

[pokerfan]

169. And the plaintiffs are saying the clip is 25 seconds

Seems like this should be an easily verifiable fact.

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2008/04/17/ben-stein-and-the-fair-use-doctrine-of-free-speech

We should be able to agree that the song's lyrics (Imagine no possessions" isn't (or shouldn't be) a legal defense.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

170. I dont think it was meant as a legal defense

I think it was a joke, an irony that quite a few DUers pointed out as well..

-

But on the whole 25 or 15 seconds:

http://www.bridgew.edu/library/ipr/guidelines.cfm

Guidelines on the limitations of fair use and when you must seek permission ...

Table of Multimedia Fair Use Guidelines
Medium Limits
Audio Up to 10% or 30 seconds (whichever is less)

--

Imagine by Lenin is 184 seconds so if Yoko Ono is indeed correct and the clip runs 25 seconds then it seems they are violating even the most liberal of fair use doctrine and should be accordingly spanked. If, however, they are under 18.4 seconds then they seem to have stuck within the parameters of fair use..

[frickaline]

99. I'd have to go with who cares on this one

Do I agree with ID? No. Do I agree with censorship? Bigger NO.

He's entitled to his view, she's entitled to her money. Let em duke it out but I'm not happy for either one of them.

[ret5hd]

122. Uhhhhhh...what, exactly, does censorship have to do with this subject?

[QueenOfCalifornia]

105. Ben Stein

Is the reason I want to poke my eyes out. Every time I see him on the TV I want to scream. He is such a fucking ass. So... even though Yoko broke up the Beatles and she is the reason I had to listen to the worst song John Lennon ever wrote, sang and then published - "Oh, Yoko" I hope she gets every penny she and her sons are after and then I hope that a big punitive fine is tacked on and that Yoko donates the money to a science laboratory who is equipped with a telescope capable of finding Ben Stein's brain.

Fuck Ben Stein and the idiot chimp he has voted for twice.

[Snarkturian Clone]

111. One self-important overrated celebutard deserves another. NT

[jeff30997]

128. Best post in this thread. n/t

[valerief]

112. Take that clown for all he's got, Yoko! nt

[pjt7]

120. Ben Stein is taking more medication

than Rush Limbaugh in his prime. Take this prescription drug hound down.

[Lost-in-FL]

123. Heeh heeh !!

:P

[onehandle]

127. Take every dime they profit, Yoko. Which will be just that. A dime. nt

[MarinCoUSA]

129. "comment on the song" d/n= debate on (pseudo science) ID. STEIN IS IN THIS ONLY FOR THE $

Stein camp's response is soooooooo non-denial denial its risible.
I'll confess I haven't seen this piece of trash, and based on the review by the Scientific American (aka Stein's "Big Science") I wont waste my $. Comment about "Imagine" in a film about this crap seemS a stretch.

[iamthebandfanman]

130. woohooo

take his one word movie career royalties away!

[DutchLiberal]

134. From the song: "Imagine no possession, I wonder if you can..."

The irony... :)

[ColbertWatcher]

146. Brilliant! n/t

[spanone]

140. if he didn't request a license and used the song, she will win big-time

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

145. Depends on how the song was used

It *could* be fairuse

[ColbertWatcher]

147. That's pushing it...

...even if they intended to use it and claim fair use, if they were professionals, they would have asked anyway. (CYA)

But, even if Yoko doesn't win this one (I think she will) the creationsists still have PBS to contend with and those people whose CGI was stolen by the creationsists.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

162. Well there is a difference between good for and legality

Was it bad form to use the song without even notifying the widow of the artist and ip owner? yes at the very least a note saying under fair use were going to use 10 seconds of the song but in our litigious society it is possible that for political or philosophical purposes that this *documentary* with 10 words and less than 20 seconds of the song could have been crushed under the weight of multiple lawsuits.

That being said to use something under fair use does *not* require permission..

[SQ_20903]

158. I think she's nuts

she's out of her mind. Can't sing either.

[onager]

172. Here, Ben, use this song instead...

I posted this in LBN on a thread about the lawsuit. But for your enjoyment...

Here's a parody from the National Lampoon Radio Dinner album, during Lennon's "Working Class Hero/Primal Scream" phase. Most of the lyrics are direct quotes from a Rolling Stone interview with Lennon.

The title--of course--is "Magical Misery Tour."

I resent performing for you fuckers,
Tell me, what do you know?
A lot of faggot middle-class kids
Wearing long hair and trendy clothes.
Look, I'm not your fucking parents
And I'm sick of uptight hippies coming knocking at me door
With a fucking peace symbol
Get this, fuck that, I don't owe you fuckers anything.
And all I've got to say is "Fuck you!"

The sky is blue...

And Mick Jagger
I think that Mick's a joke with all his stupid faggot dancing
I always did.
Wiggling his ass, you know, its just a lot of bullshit.
And where does he come off saying all those tarty things about the Beatles?
When every fucking thing we ever did Mick tried to copy
And you know we even wrote his second fucking record for him
No, the Stones, aren't in the same fucking class as the Beatles,
Either music-wise or power-wise and never ever were.

Pardon me sir...

Paul said he hated Yoko
Tell me, why should Yoko have to take that kind of shit?
Shit from those fucking sons of bitches?
George said she gave off evil vibes,
I should have beat the fucking shit right out of him,
Him with his fucking Hare Krishnas.

:rofl:

Me Auntie, she tore up me fucking poems
She just threw the bastards out.
I can't forgive her `cause she didn't treat me like a fucking genius.
Fuck you bastards, I'm a genius!
Like Shakespeare and Beethoven and Van Gogh.
Don't you DARE criticize my work!
"Don't Worry Kyoko" is one of the fucking BEST rock and roll records ever made!
I'm a fucking artist! I'm sensitive as shit!
I throw up before I go on stage! I could make a guitar SPEAK!
If I could be a fisherman, I would, But I CAN'T because I'm a FUCKING GENIUS!

I was the Walrus - Paul wasn't the Walrus!
I was just saying that to be nice, but I was actually the Walrus!

You know that rubbish he's been singing?
EASTMAN WAS AN ANIMAL! A FUCKING STUPID MIDDLE-CLASS PIG!
I WON'T LET FUCKING ANIMALS LIKE THAT NEAR ME!
Yoko is a supreme intellectual!
I'll tell you why nobody likes her music
Because she's a woman, and she's Oriental, that's why!

Where are you Mother?
They're trying to crucify me!

Genius is pain, genius is pain,
Genius is pain, genius is PAIN!!
YOKO!!!! MOTHER!!!!
{Fade out on howling and gutteral screaming)

Yoko's voice: The dleam is over.