health care should be socialized because HEALTH is socialized

[unblock]

the fact of the matter is that the wealthiest among us benefit in many ways from having the poor people around them healthy.

this is most obvious with infectious diseases. access to the best health care in the world is great, but it's small consolation against a swarm of viruses raging through the country. only total recluses can adequately shield themselves from a random cough or sneeze or handshake.

moreover, the vast majority of business owners benefit directly from a healthy workforce. sick employees just aren't as productive as healthy ones, whether they work through it or not.

aside from those managed care companies and insurance companies, few people benefit from seeing other people sick. the medical profession itself might see a shift in specialties, but overall there will always be new frontiers and money to be made in improving health and longevity and quality of life, even if overall health is improved.


so why not make bill gates pay for my health care? after all, the longer i live, the more windoze upgrades i can buy.

[RC]

1. You make too much sense.

I'm speechless. :yourock:

[unblock]

2. oh, i forgot to add: hillary is a racist! obama is a sexist!

is that better?

:evilgrin:

[sharesunited]

3. Health care should be as ubiquitous as streets and highways.

And promotes the general welfare in the same incalculable, unallocable way.

[shrdlu]

4. Thanks for examining ...

a rarely discussed aspect of universal health care.

[Warpy]

5. The real argument against pushing healthcare into the consumer

marketplace and talking about cost containment and choice and other consumer buzzwords is that illness is simply not a consumer decision.

They're treating sickness like working people can choose to go around catching the common cold when they feel a need to be sick and leave the cardiomyopathy necessitating heart transplant to the people who can afford it. When working people catch something they can't afford, they should be made to suffer for it so they won't do it again, goes insurance thinking.

I would hope that when the Democrat who wins the nod gets into office, s/he picks up Edwards's plan, one that allows us to do an end run around the insurance companies that have screwed us for so long and sign up for Medicare. Congress is too timid to deal with the problem via national health insurance. Only a back door approach has any chance of success.

What we know for certain is that keeping healthcare in the for profit, consumer marketplace is killing us. Literally.

[sharesunited]

6. Yes! Medicare for all. At premiums which kill off for-profit insurance.

Do a reverse Grover Norquist on the parasitic health insurers.

[Pineywoods Sam]

9. I'm beginning to think of it as the "Medical Industrial Complex".

[unblock]

11. good one!

[unblock]

10. the real capitalist model works best for completely discretionary goods

the benefits of effective resource allocation that capitalist theory provides applies best when there is complete information, adequate competition, and everyone has the power and ability to enter or exit the market freely.

things like externalities, obfuscating advertising, market consolidation, and externalities wreak havoc with the classical model.

but most of all, it doesn't work well when you simply can't say no. for example, when you're unconscious and taken to a hospital. or in an emergency when you can't shop around for health care.

i am fundamentally a believer in capitalism, but i am thoughtful about it. most of the time it works pretty well, it's not an end in and of itself and it requires monitoring to make sure it keeps in line with the public interests.

in the case of health care, the system we have now is rather obviously broken.

[ColbertWatcher]

7. "Only total recluses..."

"...only total recluses can adequately shield themselves..."

This reminds me of a "meet the author" event that I went to during the Festival of Books at UCLA in 2005.

It was for an author I had just discovered from a show on http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel">PBS, Jared Diamond.

I had heard about his ground-breaking new theory about why some societies developed faster than others and was intrigued. His newest book (at the time) was http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Collapse/Jared-Diamond/e/9780143036555/?itm=5">Collapse, which told the opposite story.

With http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Guns-Germs-and-Steel/Jared-Diamond/e/9780393317558/?itm=1">Guns, Germs and Steel Diamond talked about how the Earth itself determined how quickly and whether a society would "advance". On the other hand, Collapse (whose subtitle is "How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed") talked about how some societies failed.

During the presentation, he talked about why there are no trees on Easter Island, and how it is Haiti and the Dominican Republic can share an island, but only one of those countries is able to feed their people.

Then he talked about how the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_flood_of_1953">Netherlands flooded in 1953 and how it was different than what happened in New Orleans.

He said (and I'm paraphrasing) it was because they didn't have any high ground in the Netherlands; everyone was effected by the flood. In New Orleans, the French Quarter was spared because it was above the rest of the city. People who could afford to leave did; people who couldn't were forced to stay.

The two floods differed because in the Netherlands, no one was shielded from the devastation. Everyone's home--including the government officials and members of the monarchy--was flooded.

And that is why they fixed their flood system and why the GOP administration did not fix the 9th Ward.

Because certain people could "shield themselves" from consequences.

[KT2000]

8. Thank you - thank you - thank you!!

Besides the contagious diseases we must remember that environmental laws are public health laws. Every time administrations relax rules - they are accepting on our behalf more illnesses and death from pollution. When they grandfather in chemicals that were fraudulently or inadequately tested, they are sharing the risk with us all.
When your neighbor takes it upon himself/herself to use and over-use lawn chemicals, he/she is sharing the risk for a multitude of cancers, birth defects and brain damage with neighbors.

Our report card is in - increases in childhood cancers, developmental disabilities such as autism, learning disabilities and mental illnesses. That is our gift to the next generation. They just better find jobs with good insurance coverage.

I am going to use your phrase because it says it all!
Thanks

[bobbolink]

15. Don't forget the TB epidemic in shelters. Let that spread to the general population....

People knew that a hundred years ago, but here we are.

Dumb.

As the doctor said in the article I quoted earlier:

“I think that our current presidential candidates understand that ideally single-payer would be the best, but they don’t have the political will to move that forward. Their job is to feel which way the wind is blowing.

Our job is to turn that wind.”

[bobbolink]

12. "Jesus never demanded proof of health insurance"

Proposed bumpersticker.

[Greyhound]

16. Jesus would have, if you believe the stories are true, been sued and served

a restraining order for curing people for free. Don't even start on practicing medicine without a license.
:evilgrin:

[unblock]

17. they would have crucified him.

oh, wait.

[ColbertWatcher]

18. Don't worry, though...

...he's been workin' out!

[bobbolink]

20. aw, you spoiled it by telling the ending!

:evilgrin: back atcha!

But, I still think it's a great bumpersticker...

:pals:

[Lars39]

13. Having as clean as environment as possible is also part of the equation.

It is in the people's best interests to have a clean environment, resulting in less cancers, asthmas, etc.
Less disease from a messy environment = less health care costs in the long run.

[bobbolink]

14. Amy Goodman's column today in the Denver Post

Good info to use for talking with others:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080423_the_single_payer_solution/

As the media coverage of the Democratic presidential race continues to focus on lapel pins and pastors, America is ailing. As I travel around the country, I find people are angry and motivated. Like Dr. Rocky White, a physician from a conservative, evangelical background who practices in rural Alamosa, Colo. A tall, gray-haired Westerner in black jeans, a crisp white shirt and a bolo tie, Dr. White is a leading advocate for single-payer health care. He wasn’t always.

He told me in a recent interview: “Here I am, a Republican, thinking about nationalizing health care. It just went against the grain of everything that I stood for. But you have to remember: I didn’t come to those conclusions with lofty ideals of social justice.”

edit

“You’re seeing an ever-increasing number of people starting to support a national health program. In fact, 59 percent of practicing physicians today believe that we need to have a national health program. I mean, that’s unheard of, even 10 years ago. It’s amazing to see a new generation of physicians coming up who are disgusted with our current health-care system. You know, we’re trained to be advocates of patients, we’re trained to save lives, we’re trained to practice medicine. And instead, what we’re doing is we’re practicing Wall Street economics.”

Single-payer is not to be confused with universal coverage, which Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both support. In fact, in a recent debate, when Clinton raised the issue of single-payer, the audience interrupted with applause. She immediately countered, “I know a lot of people favor , but for many reasons is difficult to achieve.”

Why? One of the most powerful industries in the country opposes it—the insurance industry. Under universal coverage, insurance profits are preserved. Under single-payer, they are not. Dr. Rocky White, who now sits on the board of the nonprofit Health Care for All Colorado, has switched his political affiliation. He also has updated and reissued Dr. Robert LeBow’s book on single-payer called “Health Care Meltdown: Confronting the Myths and Fixing Our Failing System.”

[PseudoIntellect]

19. What's that? Socializing healthcare?!

But doesn't that mean you're automatically Stalin?!?!
:sarcasm: